England post 2022 6Ns, Aus tour and beyond

by Sgt_Pooly Thu 24 Nov 2022, 5:37 am

First topic message reminder :

Hate to say it and I don't wish him injured but I'm glad Ewels not available!
If you're disappointed with Malins and Daly being selected, imagine how most of us feel about Youngs being there.
In fairness, Malins and Daly been superb this season but please give Radwan and Arundell a run.

by Duty281 Tue 06 Dec 2022, 1:29 pm

Geordie wrote:I reckon Dean Richards would be a good fit...

I vote for Dallaglio and Healey, just so I never have to hear them on BT again.

by majesticimperialman Tue 06 Dec 2022, 1:43 pm

So the RFU sack England's most sucessful coach after one bad year. Could of Should of waited till after RWC.

by Geordie Tue 06 Dec 2022, 1:44 pm

Is it only one bad year??

by No 7&1/2 Tue 06 Dec 2022, 1:46 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:...He would still have missed his performance targets...
What performance targets?

80 per cent win rate was 1 of them.
Is there anywhere these targets were officially stated? I ask, because one of my biggest complaints with the RFU, was not having targets, or ignoring targets set by someone who was later sacked.

Dallaglio made an interesting point on the Evening Standard podcast, which was recorded before the news today. He thought Jones should go, and believes the decision should have been taken much earlier. His Standard colleagues were inclined to stick, and see how it all played out. Dallaglio pointed out that, if the RFU stuck with Jones, and he failed at the World Cup, then they would all be attached to that failure for consistently backing him, and would have to be replaced. In short, England's poor form pushed Bill Sweeney and others into a position where it was easier to sack Jones than keep him.

Below, Ben Kay calls Eddie Jones the José Mourinho of rugby

I can't remember where I read them, sorry. Can't remember the others either, the 80% just stuck in my head.

by mountain man Tue 06 Dec 2022, 2:10 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Geordie wrote:I reckon Dean Richards would be a good fit...

I vote for Dallaglio and Healey, just so I never have to hear them on BT again.

If Healy ended up a coach of England I would change my nationality. Total ladies front bottom.

by lostinwales Tue 06 Dec 2022, 2:42 pm

In other news Jack Singleton looks to have a 'significant' lower leg injury.

by Geordie Tue 06 Dec 2022, 3:16 pm

i see Squidge is unhappy

by No 7&1/2 Tue 06 Dec 2022, 3:31 pm

Geordie wrote:i see Squidge is unhappy

Because he like others only sees the WC. As a fan I don't want another 9 games of dross just in case we do well at the WC. If you can't serve up a decent WC showing without sacrificing 3 and a half years of entertainment you shouldn't be in the job.

by lostinwales Tue 06 Dec 2022, 3:51 pm

I don't expect England to win every game they play but I want to be able to hope that they might. I didn't watch the SA match, or the French match at the last 6N because I felt no hope, and I don't feel that I am missing anything by not watching them.

I want that feeling to change.

by Cumbrian Tue 06 Dec 2022, 4:20 pm

I suppose conventional wisdom would say that it is madness to change coach so close to the world cup, but it isn't like we'd have had a chance of winning it playing the way we have been anyway. The idea that all of a sudden things were going to click into pace when the tournament comes around seemed/ seems fanciful.

by Mr Bounce Tue 06 Dec 2022, 4:36 pm

I am a bit late to today's party (been doing work stuff - how dare they suggest I do that!) but have to say I am not really very surprised given the past 18 months of garbage. Jones at his best is absolutely brilliant, but Jones at his worst just makes no sense. I think if Eddie had made some changes to the pack for the RWC Final against SA it might well have been different, and Jones would have retired in a "one and done" mission accomplished kind of way. Instead, he made his mistakes, Sinckler got KO'd and Eddie had a burning desire to go one better with what seemed like no plan on how to do so.

I only hope that whoever we get will pick in-form players in their proper positions with a younger, more dynamic captain. And let's jettison some dead wood: Nowell, Youngs, both Vunipolas as well. Curry is no in form and Farrell looks tired and irritable. Lawes, Underhill and Tuilagi seem to be permanently broken, or about to break. Blood some players in the 6 nations who should have been picked a couple of seasons ago. And some fresh ideas on how to play!

It's not like we haven't got decent players to replace them: Nowell = Radwan; Youngs = Mitchell; Billy = Dombrandt; Mako = Rodd; Tom Curry = Ben Curry; Underhill = Earl; Lawes = Ted Hill; Tuilagi = Lawrence; Farrell = Kelly. All are capped, even if it's just 20 minutes, all are in form and have that hunger that has been missing for so long.

by Yoda Tue 06 Dec 2022, 5:52 pm

All I want for Christmas is a set of coaches who can get the juices flowing again at international level. It doesn't take much, just a change in mindset. Just look at France used to be horrible boring now I think they have been given licence to enjoy their rugby again and off they've gone.

They next few weeks are pivotal to the direction we take. Of it's borthwick, I'm afraid it's more of the same but Robinson could be an interesting unknown that could utilise some attacking flair we've been clamouring for.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 06 Dec 2022, 6:21 pm

A Borthwick media session was cancelled today then. Probably busy or something.

by formerly known as Sam Tue 06 Dec 2022, 7:29 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:A Borthwick media session was cancelled today then. Probably busy or something.

He's not a big fan of talking to the media at the best of times. He wasn't likely to turn up to a session for a barrage of questions about a job he won't have been offered yet. This is after all the man who refuses point blank to discuss any player's injury. Certainly makes up the team reveal interesting.

I'm not sure it's the best move, particularly if the RFU try to interfere and demand some sort of attacking rugby out of Borthers. He's a set piece man first and foremost. Be interesting to see how he goes with an experienced attack coach as well as that's something he's not had at Tigers.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 06 Dec 2022, 8:16 pm

Yeah that's the worry. Said before organisation's tend to go with the antithesis of what is perceived to be the problem of the previous coach. What do the RFU see that issue to be though?

by Geordie Tue 06 Dec 2022, 8:52 pm

I have no problem with a set piece man...irs essential at this level infact...but hopefully as said above with a really good attack coach (Vesty?) It can be a little bit more.

Add a good defence coach and things might just be OK.

I think we all just want to see a strong, aggressive side with a bit of attacking flair run out in the 6n.

by formerly known as Sam Tue 06 Dec 2022, 9:52 pm

Brett Hodgson the new defence coach is a former rugby league head coach. Be a bit harsh to sack the bloke before he's even had a crack.

All of the existing England coaches should be on notice as there's not been any area that's looked up to scratch recently.

by Geordie Tue 06 Dec 2022, 10:06 pm

Actually I'd forgotten there was a new d coach. See how he goes I guess

by Sgt_Pooly Wed 07 Dec 2022, 4:23 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:A Borthwick media session was cancelled today then. Probably busy or something.

He's not a big fan of talking to the media at the best of times. He wasn't likely to turn up to a session for a barrage of questions about a job he won't have been offered yet. This is after all the man who refuses point blank to discuss any player's injury. Certainly makes up the team reveal interesting.

I'm not sure it's the best move, particularly if the RFU try to interfere and demand some sort of attacking rugby out of Borthers. He's a set piece man first and foremost. Be interesting to see how he goes with an experienced attack coach as well as that's something he's not had at Tigers.

And this is why he could be a good fit pre-WC tbh.

International sides first and foremost need to be defensively sound and have a good set-piece....this can take you quite far. Look at Ireland, they aren't exactly running teams ragged, they do the basics well first....same with France.

I've seen some posts saying Cole etc shouldn't be picked, I'm not in that boat. You pick your best side......and if Dan Cole is currently our best scrummaging option, go with him. We need to get this nasty pack back, nobody is intimidated anymore. Sides front up to us....bloody Scotland outmuscle us these days!

by No 7&1/2 Wed 07 Dec 2022, 6:00 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:Brett Hodgson the new defence coach is a former rugby league head coach. Be a bit harsh to sack the bloke before he's even had a crack.

All of the existing England coaches should be on notice as there's not been any area that's looked up to scratch recently.

The rumours point to it being named as Borthwick by the end of the week and that he will take Sinfield too.

by formerly known as Sam Wed 07 Dec 2022, 7:00 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:Brett Hodgson the new defence coach is a former rugby league head coach. Be a bit harsh to sack the bloke before he's even had a crack.

All of the existing England coaches should be on notice as there's not been any area that's looked up to scratch recently.

The rumours point to it being named as Borthwick by the end of the week and that he will take Sinfield too.

I'm sure they do but the rumours also suggest that the RFU only approached Tigers yesterday afternoon which means no deal is agreed with either them or the coaches yet. The rumours also vary wildly depending on how many coaches he's taking and whether or not Tigers are saying a firm no to the assistants leaving or not.

Might come down to finances, £800k to get rid of Eddie and then £200k to get in Borthwick. How much more is the RFU willing to spend and on what areas. Aled you could see the benefit of splurging there as he's a world class S&C coach though getting him in for the summer would be fine (he'd be more important pre tournament camp). Sinfield has 18 months coaching experience with the RFU just hiring someone in the same role.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 07 Dec 2022, 8:17 am

No smoke and all that! Think it would be a very good move by the RFU/Borthwick tbh. He's got a good rep in rugby circles to temper any criticism of them not offering Edwards anything but I also think he's got a good profile further afield, obviously in league but also the charity work linking to MND is a huge PR plus for both the union and his fund raising. It has a lot of things going for it. It's not to say we won't take your S&D coach too! Personally still hoping it is a smoke screen and we approach Robertson: dare we dream of both of them in the same team?

by mountain man Wed 07 Dec 2022, 8:31 am

Sgt_Pooley wrote:
I've seen some posts saying Cole etc shouldn't be picked,

I was one of them and yes Cole is playing well this season but he got minced in 2019 final and just cannot see him competing internationally.
That is key issue for me now, sorting out front row. England have players in all other positions pretty much who can come in and improve current squad but front row I'm not so sure and if not, competing with SA etc be tough.
Some are saying it was down to coaching, well Cockerill was forwards coach(not specifically scrum coach) so must have had an input.

by Geordie Wed 07 Dec 2022, 8:40 am

i see stories are coming out now that Jones had lost the dressing room...and senior players were starting to complain about his treatment of others...Max Malins being named as someone who has been poorly treated.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/f9af7fe2-74db-11ed-8dd6-146590878cf8?shareToken=fbd814b8a0b5fa2a5a16f152ffc302e5

by mountain man Wed 07 Dec 2022, 8:46 am

by mountain man Wed 07 Dec 2022, 8:46 am

Well according to Danny Care all the players supported Jones BUT that was before he got sacked. No doubt truth will now come out.
I'm sure there will be quite a few stories of harsh treament etc. Some with axe to grind maybe as not picked but some with genuine reason to feel hard done by.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 07 Dec 2022, 9:18 am

mountain man wrote:
Sgt_Pooley wrote:
I've seen some posts saying Cole etc shouldn't be picked,

I was one of them and yes Cole is playing well this season but he got minced in 2019 final and just cannot see him competing internationally.
That is key issue for me now, sorting out front row. England have players in all other positions pretty much who can come in and improve current squad but front row I'm not so sure and if not, competing with SA etc be tough.
Some are saying it was down to coaching, well Cockerill was forwards coach(not specifically scrum coach) so must have had an input.

I don't have much issue with selections in the front row. Rapava Ruskin has been there or abouts at loosehead and I fully support the approach with Marler taking any time he needs for his health. Tighthead, Heyes is very green but should get better, slightly annoyed Alo hasn't been capped yet as I think he's an excellent scrummager. Proudfoot came with a rep based off SA players who were excellent in the scrum anyway, Cockerill seems to have had minimal impact on any of the forwards positively, but it does feel a little bit of mix and match coaching there. Our lineout and mauling last looked top notch when Borthwick was there, albeit with different players.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 07 Dec 2022, 9:20 am

I think some players were a little poorly treated in how they got initial selection but then weren't retained: but then again a lot of them I wouldn't have had in the squad anyway so I wasn't disappointed they were gone (Malins included). I'm always one to say who I'd have picked if someone is dropped and I can very much see the logic in Malins being pushed aside when you have Arundell to fill the 23 shirt.

by Poorfour Wed 07 Dec 2022, 9:29 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:Brett Hodgson the new defence coach is a former rugby league head coach. Be a bit harsh to sack the bloke before he's even had a crack.

All of the existing England coaches should be on notice as there's not been any area that's looked up to scratch recently.

The rumours point to it being named as Borthwick by the end of the week and that he will take Sinfield too.

I'm sure they do but the rumours also suggest that the RFU only approached Tigers yesterday afternoon which means no deal is agreed with either them or the coaches yet. The rumours also vary wildly depending on how many coaches he's taking and whether or not Tigers are saying a firm no to the assistants leaving or not.

Might come down to finances, £800k to get rid of Eddie and then £200k to get in Borthwick. How much more is the RFU willing to spend and on what areas. Aled you could see the benefit of splurging there as he's a world class S&C coach though getting him in for the summer would be fine (he'd be more important pre tournament camp). Sinfield has 18 months coaching experience with the RFU just hiring someone in the same role.

That's the short term view, though. There was late availability for the NZ and SA games this autumn and that will have spooked the RFU. £800,000 is about 5,000 ticket sales at current prices. If appointing a new coach is the difference between having a couple of thousand unsold tickets for the 6N and warmup games or having a full stadium, the cost of change will get offset very quickly.

Now I think of it, that might have been a big factor in wanting to make the change.

by Scottrf Wed 07 Dec 2022, 10:32 am

More likely, if they kept him and performances are poor in the World Cup, their necks are on the line.

With a new manager, that's not the case.

by majesticimperialman Wed 07 Dec 2022, 10:44 am

With Eddie Jones now gone from the England squad we will soon have a new coach. I say the new coach should start with a new squad and forget nexr years RWC concentrate on the 6nations and build from there.

by Geordie Wed 07 Dec 2022, 10:51 am

Yes...focus on the upcoming 6n

Decide on a system and pick the right players for that system.

by Geordie Wed 07 Dec 2022, 11:00 am

BUT....

We still have the same issues Eddie had.

Can we get Sinckler back to his best? And who is back up?
Who are the Starting locks?? Itoje isnt at his best..and needs a nuts and bolts lock beside him. Is that Ribbans...finally?
Who else is there...Chessum, Tizzard??

Whats happening at 6? Is it a lock / hybrid...or an actual flanker...
Coles/ Lawes v Jack Willis - or even better...Ted HIll

Whats happening at 8. Is this dependant on the 6 option. or do we finally pick a player who can pretty much all...ie Dombrandt.

12 - Farrell or another. But who is the Another?? We dont have one outstanding...and Dan Kelly is always injured

Wings - Please pick some of the young lads playing so well in the prem.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 07 Dec 2022, 11:11 am

majesticimperialman wrote:With Eddie Jones now gone from the England squad we will soon have a new coach. I say the new coach should start with a new squad and forget nexr years RWC concentrate on the 6nations and build from there.

I've moved to the edge of my seat in anticipation of how wrong you get the names in your preferred match day squad.

by formerly known as Sam Wed 07 Dec 2022, 12:03 pm

Geordie wrote:
12 - Farrell or another. But who is the Another?? We dont have one outstanding...and Dan Kelly is always injured

To be fair Dan Kelly had one injury that was quite serious. He's back now. He's not shown a tendency for picking up niggling injuries which considering how physically he plays is useful. Made his comeback for Tigers on Saturday and was one of, if not the, best best player on the pitch for the hour he played. Replicate that form over a couple of months in the build up to the 6N and there's the answer to who England should play at 12.

by Sgt_Pooly Wed 07 Dec 2022, 12:09 pm

If we're looking for improvements in the scrum and maul, we could a lot worse then getting Balmain and VRR involved in the squad. There aren't many props doing better basic prop work than these two.

We still have a decent stock of genuine set piece props around, they're just not particularly flashy.

TH - Balmain, Cole, Collier, Heyes
LH - VRR, Marler, Genge

by Sgt_Pooly Wed 07 Dec 2022, 12:14 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Geordie wrote:
12 - Farrell or another. But who is the Another?? We dont have one outstanding...and Dan Kelly is always injured

To be fair Dan Kelly had one injury that was quite serious. He's back now. He's not shown a tendency for picking up niggling injuries which considering how physically he plays is useful. Made his comeback for Tigers on Saturday and was one of, if not the, best best player on the pitch for the hour he played. Replicate that form over a couple of months in the build up to the 6N and there's the answer to who England should play at 12.

Any insider info on who you think Borthwick regards as he favourites....or players he'd plump for in an England side? I'd hazard a guess at:

1. Genge
2.
3.
4, Wells
5.
6. Martin
7.
8.

9. JVP
10. Ford
11.
12. Kelly
13.
14.
15. Steward

I think he generally likes 2 proper wingers....a mix of gas and power? I'm hoping he goes for nasty physicality in the pack too, Martin being an obvious choice at 6.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 07 Dec 2022, 12:27 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
Geordie wrote:
12 - Farrell or another. But who is the Another?? We dont have one outstanding...and Dan Kelly is always injured

To be fair Dan Kelly had one injury that was quite serious. He's back now. He's not shown a tendency for picking up niggling injuries which considering how physically he plays is useful. Made his comeback for Tigers on Saturday and was one of, if not the, best best player on the pitch for the hour he played. Replicate that form over a couple of months in the build up to the 6N and there's the answer to who England should play at 12.

Any insider info on who you think Borthwick regards as he favourites....or players he'd plump for in an England side? I'd hazard a guess at:

1. Genge
2.
3.
4, Wells
5.
6. Martin
7.
8.

9. JVP
10. Ford
11.
12. Kelly
13.
14.
15. Steward

I think he generally likes 2 proper wingers....a mix of gas and power? I'm hoping he goes for nasty physicality in the pack too, Martin being an obvious choice at 6.

My eye's already twicthing at talk of Martin and Wells. Ford may move up the pecking order but you can't drop Smith surely. And Smith is coming up fast.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 07 Dec 2022, 12:29 pm

Bit from Monye via the beeb. Agree that if it is Borthwick the attack coach is the most interesting appointment. He simply can't just replicate the Leicester tactics:

'Steve Borthwick would restore "clarity and detail" if he is made England head coach says former team-mate Ugo Monye.

Leicester coach Borthwick is the leading contender to succeed Eddie Jones, who was sacked on Tuesday, nine months out from the Rugby World Cup.

"If he is the man, I think it is a great appointment," Monye told Rugby Union Weekly.

"We don't have nine months to experiment, we have nine months to nail our identity."

Richard Cockerill has stepped up from forwards coach to serve as interim head coach after Jones' exit, but the Rugby Football Union has promised a full-time appointment "in the near future".

Monye was captained by Borthwick for part of the pair's time together with England.

"He gets it," Monye added.

Rugby Union Weekly: End of the Eddie era
How Jones ran out of road as England boss
"He understands the personality of the game at the domestic level, what the players want, what the fans want, it feels like a necessity to connect all that together,

"I have had spoken with players at Leicester and the number-one word they always use is 'detail'.

"Everyone knows exactly what they are doing and how they have to do it in every situation. The detail is inside out, they love it. Clarity and detail need to be implemented into that [England] team over the next few months."

Borthwick took Leicester, who had finished 11th two years before, to the Premiership title last season. However they were well down the rankings for tries scored (92, =5th), metres gained (14,450, 10th), and clean breaks (115, 10th).

Monye believes Borthwick may need to do more than replicate the tactics that have worked for Leicester if he gets the England role.

"Leicester's game is very much based on territory, kicking, power and set piece. That might be what he goes with," Monye said.

"He will have a different player pool to select from for England, but is that how England are going to play? Are fans going to be happy with seeing that?

"Who is the attack coach? That is what I am fascinated about.

"The scrum is one of the weakest in the game, the defence is shipping tries, we need to get those fundamental pillars back in England's game. But where they can really steal a march and close the gap on the likes of Ireland and France, New Zealand and South Africa is in their attack."

'It was a nice text'
Danny Care and Eddie Jones
Danny Care was part of Eddie Jones' plans from the start of his time in charge of England
Meanwhile, England scrum-half Danny Care has revealed he exchanged messages with Jones after news broke of the coach's exit.

Care started in Jones' first England team selection in 2016 and was recalled to the set-up for this summer's tour of Australia after four years out of the squad.

"I dropped him a text to say thanks for everything you did for me, to wish him all the best in the future and say that hopefully we can share a bottle of wine in the future," said Care.

"He gave me my greatest moment in an England shirt, that start in the Grand Slam game [the 2016 win over France], so I do owe a lot to him.

"I didn't play for a few years under him but he will always be one of the greatest coaches I ever worked with.

"Eddie replied. He said he really appreciated the message, that it was a pleasure to coach you, keep playing well and good luck for the next couple of years. It was a nice text."'

by king_carlos Wed 07 Dec 2022, 1:03 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Geordie wrote:
12 - Farrell or another. But who is the Another?? We dont have one outstanding...and Dan Kelly is always injured

To be fair Dan Kelly had one injury that was quite serious. He's back now. He's not shown a tendency for picking up niggling injuries which considering how physically he plays is useful. Made his comeback for Tigers on Saturday and was one of, if not the, best best player on the pitch for the hour he played. Replicate that form over a couple of months in the build up to the 6N and there's the answer to who England should play at 12.

I was about to post similar! In 2020/21 (his first season in Prem rugby and 19-years-old) Kelly played 18 games, in 2021/21 he played 23 games starting 22 of them before getting the first significant injury of his career.

I think Geordie's PTSD over Manu being picked is approaching the point where if a player stubbed their toe as a toddler they're too injury prone for him! Erm

by Geordie Wed 07 Dec 2022, 1:04 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
Geordie wrote:
12 - Farrell or another. But who is the Another?? We dont have one outstanding...and Dan Kelly is always injured

To be fair Dan Kelly had one injury that was quite serious. He's back now. He's not shown a tendency for picking up niggling injuries which considering how physically he plays is useful. Made his comeback for Tigers on Saturday and was one of, if not the, best best player on the pitch for the hour he played. Replicate that form over a couple of months in the build up to the 6N and there's the answer to who England should play at 12.

Any insider info on who you think Borthwick regards as he favourites....or players he'd plump for in an England side? I'd hazard a guess at:

1. Genge
2. George
3. Sinckler
4, ~~Wells~~ Itoje
5. Ribbans
6. Martin / Hill
7. Curry
8. Dombrandt

9. JVP
10. Ford / Farrell
11. OHC
12. Kelly
13. Lawrence
14. Murley / Radwan
15. Steward

I think he generally likes 2 proper wingers....a mix of gas and power? I'm hoping he goes for nasty physicality in the pack too, Martin being an obvious choice at 6.

by formerly known as Sam Wed 07 Dec 2022, 1:13 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
Geordie wrote:
12 - Farrell or another. But who is the Another?? We dont have one outstanding...and Dan Kelly is always injured

To be fair Dan Kelly had one injury that was quite serious. He's back now. He's not shown a tendency for picking up niggling injuries which considering how physically he plays is useful. Made his comeback for Tigers on Saturday and was one of, if not the, best best player on the pitch for the hour he played. Replicate that form over a couple of months in the build up to the 6N and there's the answer to who England should play at 12.

Any insider info on who you think Borthwick regards as he favourites....or players he'd plump for in an England side? I'd hazard a guess at:

1. Genge
2.
3.
4, Wells
5.
6. Martin
7.
8.

9. JVP
10. Ford
11.
12. Kelly
13.
14.
15. Steward

I think he generally likes 2 proper wingers....a mix of gas and power? I'm hoping he goes for nasty physicality in the pack too, Martin being an obvious choice at 6.

My eye's already twicthing at talk of Martin and Wells. Ford may move up the pecking order but you can't drop Smith surely. And Smith is coming up fast.

I can't see Wells making it. Martin could he's a hard hitting, extremely hard working 6 who started at tighthead lock the other week and the scrum was rock solid. He could be rather useful option going forward and is only in his early 20s.

Telegraph has predicted an England team for the 6 Nations

Freddie Steward; Anthony Watson, Henry Slade, Dan Kelly, Ollie Hassell-Collins, Owen Farrell, Jack van Poortvliet; Ellis Genge (captain), Jamie George, Kyle Sinckler, Maro Itoje, Ollie Chessum, Ted Hill, Tom Curry, Alex Dombrandt

Replacements: Luke Cowan-Dickie, Val Rapava-Ruskin, Dan Cole, David Ribbans, Billy Vunipola, Ben Youngs, Marcus Smith, Ollie Lawrence

I mean that's pure column filler but Borthwick does tend towards a work horse right wing (normally Potter at Tigers) and then an impact wing on the left who has the licence to roam (Nadolo but Watson now seems to be being trialled in that role). The locks need to be good at the set piece, no passengers there. Physical backrow. He likes two running options in the centres though a more skillful 12 who can mix it up.

by king_carlos Wed 07 Dec 2022, 1:19 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:If we're looking for improvements in the scrum and maul, we could a lot worse then getting Balmain and VRR involved in the squad. There aren't many props doing better basic prop work than these two.

We still have a decent stock of genuine set piece props around, they're just not particularly flashy.

TH - Balmain, Cole, Collier, Heyes
LH - VRR, Marler, Genge

Balmain is a solid Premiership player but I don't think he'd look a strong scrummager against the strongest international LHs. Similar with Rapava-Ruskin against Malherbe. Some of Gloucester's best recruitment was getting Elrington and Gotovtsev as it allowed them to rotate Balmain and VRR without the drop of they previously had. Excellent work within the salary cap by the Gloucs management but also somewhat shows Balmain and VRR's ceiling IMO. In Elrington's last season with LI I thought Goodrick-Clarke looked the better player for instance.

It's where picking 'set-piece props' on club performances can be tough. Depending on your oppositions strength, depth, injuries, etc you might be scrummaging against Marler one week then a strong Championship prop that's just got a Prem deal the next.

Whilst Mako is undoubtedly a weaker scrummager than Genge and Marler for instance I struggle to think the Sarries scrum would look better with VRR at LH or the Gloucester scrum weaker with Mako there.

It often happens that players who are dropped after a dip in performance at international level will be described as "past their best" or "finished" but with a run of games at Premiership level soon look better than the competition again. Cole has been doing that for 2 years now. Mako and Billy both did so with Sarries last season where their form was absolutely terrific.

Farrell is an interesting example of that last point too. Frequently lambasted for his attacking play with England but whenever he puts a run of games in with Sarries some of his attacking play is frequently sublime.

It's the issue with players being dropped on international form and picked on club form when the standards are so different.

On the front row debate specifically I'd really like to see:

1.Genge 2.George 3.Cole
16.LCD 17.Marler 18.Sinckler

by No 7&1/2 Wed 07 Dec 2022, 1:20 pm

I'm still not sold on Martin being an international. He's still young and will get better no doubt but not my cup of tea even for a bigger 6. I hope Slade is moved on tbh, he was getting plenty of plaudits for his cameos this AIs but he was constantly knocking the ball on.

If it's Borthwick will be interesting to see if he's released by Leicester for the 6Ns first of all, and if he isn't how much say he has, or wants on team structure and choice. Again, who knows how his England team will play, surely they will have to be less systematic than he is in the prem or he'll have people on his back straight away.

by Geordie Wed 07 Dec 2022, 1:20 pm

king_carlos wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
Geordie wrote:
12 - Farrell or another. But who is the Another?? We dont have one outstanding...and Dan Kelly is always injured

To be fair Dan Kelly had one injury that was quite serious. He's back now. He's not shown a tendency for picking up niggling injuries which considering how physically he plays is useful. Made his comeback for Tigers on Saturday and was one of, if not the, best best player on the pitch for the hour he played. Replicate that form over a couple of months in the build up to the 6N and there's the answer to who England should play at 12.
I was about to post similar! In 2020/21 (his first season in Prem rugby and 19-years-old) Kelly played 18 games, in 2021/21 he played 23 games starting 22 of them before getting the first significant injury of his career.

I think Geordie's PTSD over Manu being picked is approaching the point where if a player stubbed their toe as a toddler they're too injury prone for him!

Absolutely right...if they cant make the full quota...they're no good for me.

by king_carlos Wed 07 Dec 2022, 1:21 pm

Re Wells specifically he's a good Premiership locks but Borthwick has frequently benched him with Chessum and Green starting at Tigers for the set-piece. I can't see him troubling selections.

by Geordie Wed 07 Dec 2022, 1:26 pm

Agree i wouldnt include Wells as an international...much as Sean Robinson shouldnt really have been called up...

Chessum looks the real deal...Tizzard hopefully the same. Id be inclined to give Ribbans a shot with Itoje for the 6n....

by Mr Bounce Wed 07 Dec 2022, 1:39 pm

As long as Jonny Hill isn't involved for a bit.

by Oakdene Wed 07 Dec 2022, 1:41 pm

Do you all think there will be a change from Farrell at 12?

by formerly known as Sam Wed 07 Dec 2022, 1:41 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm still not sold on Martin being an international. He's still young and will get better no doubt but not my cup of tea even for a bigger 6. I hope Slade is moved on tbh, he was getting plenty of plaudits for his cameos this AIs but he was constantly knocking the ball on.

If it's Borthwick will be interesting to see if he's released by Leicester for the 6Ns first of all, and if he isn't how much say he has, or wants on team structure and choice. Again, who knows how his England team will play, surely they will have to be less systematic than he is in the prem or he'll have people on his back straight away.

Martin is developing towards being an international. I'd agree that he's not there yet but some squad time might be good for him. Given how Borthwick likes to play Martin could become a useful bench option if a similar style is adopted with England.

I suspect the negotiations between the RFU and Tigers are all centred around release and accessibility to assistants. I think the club were prepared for Borthwick to leave at the end of the season but are less enamoured with the idea of him toddling off to HQ next week which is what I expect the RFU would prefer. I wouldn't be surprised if Borthwick stayed until the 6N with the assistants following in the summer. The amount of compensation will reflect how quickly he moves on as the RFU are really effing over Tigers if they take all of Steve, Aled and Kev immediately. I'd hope the club would demand a whopping sum for that.

by Sponsored content