Silly Season Transfer Rumours 22/23

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And.....off you go.

Is there a list of who exeter have signed so far? Seems to be some good young players going there...rebuild looking good.

Exeter are pretty good with young players. They took Jenkins, Dunne and Tshiunza on and made them look like seasoned pro's.

Players In
Edit
Wales Joe Hawkins from Wales Ospreys[16]
England Will Haydon-Wood from France Massy[16]
New Zealand Ethan Roots from Wales Ospreys[16]


Players Out
Edit
England Sam Simmonds to France Montpellier[17]
England Luke Cowan-Dickie to France Montpellier[18]
South Africa Jannes Kirsten to South Africa Bulls[19]
Zimbabwe Dave Ewers to Ireland Ulster[20]
England Joe Simmonds to France Pau[21]
England Harry Williams to France Montpellier[22]
Scotland Stuart Hogg retiring[23]

mikey_dragon wrote:Exeter are pretty good with young players. They took Jenkins, Dunne and Tshiunza on and made them look like seasoned pro's.

Like most sides sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Considering their recruitment area they should be churning out talent more than they do.

That being said they are putting together a young pack with plenty of mobile physicality. Front row needs some reinforcement though.

James Ratti to Ospreys.

Missed Harry Williams leaving. Excellent club prop.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Missed Harry Williams leaving. Excellent club prop.

Sort of replaced by Ehren Painter who's joined mid season.

RiscaGame wrote:James Ratti to Ospreys.

I could see that one coming, seeing as he won’t get much of a look-in at Cardiff nowadays. Hopefully they’ve signed him as No.8. Wonder if Lydiate is on his way back to the men of gwent…

formerly known as Sam wrote:Players In
Edit
Wales Joe Hawkins from Wales Ospreys[16]
England Will Haydon-Wood from France Massy[16]
New Zealand Ethan Roots from Wales Ospreys[16]


Players Out
Edit
England Sam Simmonds to France Montpellier[17]
England Luke Cowan-Dickie to France Montpellier[18]
South Africa Jannes Kirsten to South Africa Bulls[19]
Zimbabwe Dave Ewers to Ireland Ulster[20]
England Joe Simmonds to France Pau[21]
England Harry Williams to France Montpellier[22]
Scotland Stuart Hogg retiring[23]

Is that all thats been announced in Sam....i could have sworn id seen some more?

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Missed Harry Williams leaving. Excellent club prop.

Sort of replaced by Ehren Painter who's joined mid season.

It will be very interesting to see if there is any kind of top level prop in there...and if Exeter can bring it out...

RiscaGame wrote:James Ratti to Ospreys.

COnfirmed?

Oakdene wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:James Ratti to Ospreys.

COnfirmed?

No, just rumoured as far as I know.

RiscaGame wrote:

Oakdene wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:James Ratti to Ospreys.

COnfirmed?

No, just rumoured as far as I know.

Wouldn't mind him to replace Sione at the Scarlets.

Geordie wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Players In
Edit
Wales Joe Hawkins from Wales Ospreys[16]
England Will Haydon-Wood from France Massy[16]
New Zealand Ethan Roots from Wales Ospreys[16]


Players Out
Edit
England Sam Simmonds to France Montpellier[17]
England Luke Cowan-Dickie to France Montpellier[18]
South Africa Jannes Kirsten to South Africa Bulls[19]
Zimbabwe Dave Ewers to Ireland Ulster[20]
England Joe Simmonds to France Pau[21]
England Harry Williams to France Montpellier[22]
Scotland Stuart Hogg retiring[23]

Is that all thats been announced in Sam....i could have sworn id seen some more?

There's been mid season moves for Painter, Fisilau, Bell and Frost. There's been a lot of rumours but nothing else announced yet. A few mid season exits as well Cordero, van Heerden and Grondona.

Painter reminds me of Harry Williams, big bloke who at club level can use that to bully his way to decent results. As soon as there's a step up on class he's not got the technical skills to push further. He's just been banned from driving after being caught well over the limit so I suspect there may be some off field issues that he needs help with.

Exeter losing so many key players I rather suspect they are going to have a very tough time next season.
Likes of Simmonds, LCD, Ewers will leave a massive hole.

Yes and no. Something is very stale at Chiefs, they are in desperate need of a shake up. Moving on some of the older guys isn't a big deal as it'll allow them to rebuild again as those guys are big earners. Williams, Nowell and Ewers haven't been at their best recently and are at an age where they want prime contracts. I agree though LCD and S Simmonds are big losses and Chiefs do need some reinforcement at hooker and 8 before next season. Otherwise the expected 23 doesn't look bad.

Sio, Frost, Painter
Gray, Dunne
Roots, Tshiunza, ?
Becconsall, Haydon-Wood
Hawkins, Slade
Wyatt, Hodge, Woodburn

Yeandle, Hepburn, Street, Jenkins, Capstick, Maunder, Devoto, Kata.

They could do with another back three option as well though with the flyer Renton and the Welsh talent Feyi-Waboso there they might generate internally.

Just a quick scout and they are about to sign Cardiff lock 22 year old Teddy Williams. A big rising star apparently.

I dont know why but i thought they had signed a few players.

Marcus Smith and Itoje mulling over moves abroad according to the Times.

Scott Steele to Edinburgh from Quins

Good steady SH in an area that Edinburgh definitely need improving.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Marcus Smith and Itoje mulling over moves abroad according to the Times.

Smith signed a "long term contract" in 2021.....rumoured to be till summer 2024. Can't find anything concrete on the year though...

Sensible move for all parties. Quins looking to move on, Edinburgh need a SH and Steele needs an opportunity.

Geordie wrote:Just a quick scout and they are about to sign Cardiff lock 22 year old Teddy Williams. A big rising star apparently.

I dont know why but i thought they had signed a few players.

Gray, Dunne, Jenkins, Alfie Bell and now Teddy Williams. That's three great prospects at lock, a seasoned international and a solid club option who's only 25. Would be a young selection of players but big lads with high work rate which always suits Chiefs.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Marcus Smith and Itoje mulling over moves abroad according to the Times.

Smith signed a "long term contract" in 2021.....rumoured to be till summer 2024. Can't find anything concrete on the year though...

I'm calling BS. Smith will be Quins marquee player and Sarries have never had a problem paying Itoje big bucks before (sometimes legally). Itoje especially is guaranteed 11 international games a season if fit (3 summer, 3 AI, 5 6N) and £20k a time appearance fee with each of those. That's a nice salary top up.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Marcus Smith and Itoje mulling over moves abroad according to the Times.

Intersting...both might find their England goings tough after the WC....so maybe taking a nice pay rise abroad.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Marcus Smith and Itoje mulling over moves abroad according to the Times.

Smith signed a "long term contract" in 2021.....rumoured to be till summer 2024. Can't find anything concrete on the year though...

I'm calling BS. Smith will be Quins marquee player and Sarries have never had a problem paying Itoje big bucks before (sometimes legally). Itoje especially is guaranteed 11 international games a season if fit (3 summer, 3 AI, 5 6N) and £20k a time appearance fee with each of those. That's a nice salary top up.

sam

Will Itoje be set in stone. Lots of competition coming through fast after the world cup....and much bigger physically...

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Marcus Smith and Itoje mulling over moves abroad according to the Times.

Intersting...both might find their England goings tough after the WC....so maybe taking a nice pay rise abroad.

Smith possibly, given Englands ineptitude around him. Itoje will be around as log as he wants to be, Johnsonesque.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Marcus Smith and Itoje mulling over moves abroad according to the Times.

Smith signed a "long term contract" in 2021.....rumoured to be till summer 2024. Can't find anything concrete on the year though...

I'm calling BS. Smith will be Quins marquee player and Sarries have never had a problem paying Itoje big bucks before (sometimes legally). Itoje especially is guaranteed 11 international games a season if fit (3 summer, 3 AI, 5 6N) and £20k a time appearance fee with each of those. That's a nice salary top up.

Just going by the times. Enough top players decide France is an option and the RFU's arm may well be forced in relaxing the rule. Or potentially a quiet word has been had that it's on the cards already.

Geordie wrote:Just a quick scout and they are about to sign Cardiff lock 22 year old Teddy Williams. A big rising star apparently.

I dont know why but i thought they had signed a few players.

I'd take that with a pinch of salt.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Marcus Smith and Itoje mulling over moves abroad according to the Times.

Intersting...both might find their England goings tough after the WC....so maybe taking a nice pay rise abroad.

Smith possibly, given Englands ineptitude around him. Itoje will be around as log as he wants to be, Johnsonesque.

I just dont see it. I really think he'll be challenged.

Would love to see it, we just don't have anyone near his level.

I'd be very surprised if Itoje and Smith went abroad and jeopardised England career.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Would love to see it, we just don't have anyone near his level.

Whats Itojes point of difference as a player / lock?

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Marcus Smith and Itoje mulling over moves abroad according to the Times.

Smith signed a "long term contract" in 2021.....rumoured to be till summer 2024. Can't find anything concrete on the year though...

I'm calling BS. Smith will be Quins marquee player and Sarries have never had a problem paying Itoje big bucks before (sometimes legally). Itoje especially is guaranteed 11 international games a season if fit (3 summer, 3 AI, 5 6N) and £20k a time appearance fee with each of those. That's a nice salary top up.

Just going by the times. Enough top players decide France is an option and the RFU's arm may well be forced in relaxing the rule. Or potentially a quiet word has been had that it's on the cards already.

That would pretty much set up a war between the PRL and the RFU.

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Would love to see it, we just don't have anyone near his level.

Whats Itojes point of difference as a player / lock?

Brilliant scrummager, great lineout, great engine, great at the breakdown. He's an elite lock and we'll talk about him in all time great conversations when he retires. He doesn't have a weakness. In terms of the point of difference note, not overly bothered if a player isn't a standout overall though in 1 particular aspect, ie someone could be 3rd best to a range of others in a range of aspects and still be a far better player.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Marcus Smith and Itoje mulling over moves abroad according to the Times.

Smith signed a "long term contract" in 2021.....rumoured to be till summer 2024. Can't find anything concrete on the year though...

I'm calling BS. Smith will be Quins marquee player and Sarries have never had a problem paying Itoje big bucks before (sometimes legally). Itoje especially is guaranteed 11 international games a season if fit (3 summer, 3 AI, 5 6N) and £20k a time appearance fee with each of those. That's a nice salary top up.

Just going by the times. Enough top players decide France is an option and the RFU's arm may well be forced in relaxing the rule. Or potentially a quiet word has been had that it's on the cards already.

That would pretty much set up a war between the PRL and the RFU.

Would it? There's enough noise coming from enough places now to signal that the partnership and agreements will change between the 2, I can see this being part of it.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Would love to see it, we just don't have anyone near his level.

Whats Itojes point of difference as a player / lock?

Brilliant scrummager, great lineout, great engine, great at the breakdown. He's an elite lock and we'll talk about him in all time great conversations when he retires. He doesn't have a weakness. In terms of the point of difference note, not overly bothered if a player isn't a standout overall though in 1 particular aspect, ie someone could be 3rd best to a range of others in a range of aspects and still be a far better player.

Is he a good carrier? Does he win collisions in a manner that can change the game. Is he a brilliant scrummager?

Geordie wrote:George Martin Write up...

https://archive.is/Zc0bZ

I suspect it'll be a good effort in a losing cause at the weekend but last season he was brought off the bench just after half time for Tommy Reffell. A seemingly odd choice with Leinster running rampant and playing with momentum in the first half. Martin did a man marking job on the Leinster backrow, notably their number 8 and just cut him down every time he looked to carry. Halted the Leinster momentum and gave what Cullen described as an "uncomfortable" half for Leinster. Leinster were obviously too good and held us out but it made for a real match if two halves.

Hopefully he'll manage the same again this time out though I strongly suspect that Leinster will know what's coming and not just run their biggest carriers down his channel.

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Would love to see it, we just don't have anyone near his level.

Whats Itojes point of difference as a player / lock?

Brilliant scrummager, great lineout, great engine, great at the breakdown. He's an elite lock and we'll talk about him in all time great conversations when he retires. He doesn't have a weakness. In terms of the point of difference note, not overly bothered if a player isn't a standout overall though in 1 particular aspect, ie someone could be 3rd best to a range of others in a range of aspects and still be a far better player.

Is he a good carrier? Does he win collisions in a manner that can change the game. Is he a brilliant scrummager?

Yup and yup.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Marcus Smith and Itoje mulling over moves abroad according to the Times.

Smith signed a "long term contract" in 2021.....rumoured to be till summer 2024. Can't find anything concrete on the year though...

I'm calling BS. Smith will be Quins marquee player and Sarries have never had a problem paying Itoje big bucks before (sometimes legally). Itoje especially is guaranteed 11 international games a season if fit (3 summer, 3 AI, 5 6N) and £20k a time appearance fee with each of those. That's a nice salary top up.

Just going by the times. Enough top players decide France is an option and the RFU's arm may well be forced in relaxing the rule. Or potentially a quiet word has been had that it's on the cards already.

That would pretty much set up a war between the PRL and the RFU.

Would it? There's enough noise coming from enough places now to signal that the partnership and agreements will change between the 2, I can see this being part of it.

The noise is from agents, players and former players though. If the RFU scrap their rules around selection whilst the salary cap is this low then it's effectively open season on England internationals.

There'll be no release outside of international windows for those players and it'll effectively torpedo the EPS arrangement. At a time when the RFU and PRL need to be working closer this would drive them apart, the Prem clubs are looking for some RFU protection and is it doesn't come then when the RFU you need something it won't be coming back from the clubs.

Yeah, puts the clubs in quite a weak position doesn't it. Perfect time for the RFU to wrestle some power to them.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Would love to see it, we just don't have anyone near his level.

Whats Itojes point of difference as a player / lock?

Brilliant scrummager, great lineout, great engine, great at the breakdown. He's an elite lock and we'll talk about him in all time great conversations when he retires. He doesn't have a weakness. In terms of the point of difference note, not overly bothered if a player isn't a standout overall though in 1 particular aspect, ie someone could be 3rd best to a range of others in a range of aspects and still be a far better player.

Is he a good carrier? Does he win collisions in a manner that can change the game. Is he a brilliant scrummager?

Yup and yup.

Hes not a good carrier and he isnt actively knocking people back in defence or attack...so no..

We haven't got a lock better than him carrying though, so again. Not sure who you would really class as a good carrier if you don't think he is. But to be honest I don't see how any of our other locks are going to improve so considerably in under a year that any coach would be dropping Itoje as first choice.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Marcus Smith and Itoje mulling over moves abroad according to the Times.

Smith signed a "long term contract" in 2021.....rumoured to be till summer 2024. Can't find anything concrete on the year though...

https://archive.is/yYAVB#selection-875.0-875.229

Rumour is it's for the end of next season when both are out of contract.

The current structure of payments is an issue for players on the fringe of matchday selection. Making the 23 or not can be dependent on things such as injury, either to yourself or others, but can cause up to a £200k swing in annual earnings. There have been suggestions of splitting the payments more evenly between a squad smaller than the EPS, say 33 players to mimic the RWC squad, then having flexible payments to those outside the EPS.

Itoje is the joint best lock I've seen for England alongside Johnson. His best has also exceeded Johnson's best IMO which isn't popular as a Tigers fan of course.

His lineout work is terrific in attack and defence both in the air and maul. His scrummaging is very good Geordie as it's been highly rated by all setups he's been in. His defensive line speed is excellent as is his tackle completion. His work rate when playing 80 minutes in basically every game he plays is fantastic. He's also one of England's best at hitting rucks in attack where his involvements are consistently very high.

The fall off recently has been his jackal work being less prominent. That's really all I've noticed drop off during this much commented on decline in form. His tight work if anything has improved in that time as well.

The hilarious thing I find in this is that many of the same fans that are now kicking Maro for concentrating more on tight work and targeting defensive breakdowns less are the exact same fans who used to suggest he needed to do more of the gritty lock work.

Itoje has 67 caps and only a move abroad would stop him being a centurion and going after the Ben Youngs England male caps record.

No 7&1/2 wrote:We haven't got a lock better than him carrying though, so again. Not sure who you would really class as a good carrier if you don't think he is. But to be honest I don't see how any of our other locks are going to improve so considerably in under a year that any coach would be dropping Itoje as first choice.

And therin lies the problem. None of our locks offer that point of difference big carrying...winning collisions in defence. One or two coming through do.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Itoje has 67 caps and only a move abroad would stop him being a centurion and going after the Ben Youngs England male caps record.

We shall see...

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:We haven't got a lock better than him carrying though, so again. Not sure who you would really class as a good carrier if you don't think he is. But to be honest I don't see how any of our other locks are going to improve so considerably in under a year that any coach would be dropping Itoje as first choice.

And therin lies the problem. None of our locks offer that point of difference big carrying...winning collisions in defence. One or two coming through do.

Itoje definitely wins collisions in defence. He does it through his line speed which consistently sees him make tackles well behind the gain line. He's an exceptional defensive lock on a par with the likes of Bierne.

How many locks offer a point of difference with big carrying? Bierne is an incredible support runner but doesn't barrel over people. Ryan and Lood are brilliant but wouldn't be in the big carrying bracket. Kremer and Petti perhaps but both play back row a lot now. Retallick hasn't be quite the same since injury. Nakarawa has declined from his peak too. Flament is just emerging as that sort of lock? It's a small list basically being the point.

Which brings us to Etzebeth. Who's performances in the past two years are about as good as I've ever seen in the position. If Itoje's crime is not being that Etzebeth every week then that pretty sums up how good he still is.

This has become a discussion for the England thread not the silly season one though.

king_carlos wrote:Itoje is the joint best lock I've seen for England alongside Johnson. His best has also exceeded Johnson's best IMO which isn't popular as a Tigers fan of course.

His lineout work is terrific in attack and defence both in the air and maul. His scrummaging is very good Geordie as it's been highly rated by all setups he's been in. His defensive line speed is excellent as is his tackle completion. His work rate when playing 80 minutes in basically every game he plays is fantastic. He's also one of England's best at hitting rucks in attack where his involvements are consistently very high.

The fall off recently has been his jackal work being less prominent. That's really all I've noticed drop off during this much commented on decline in form. His tight work if anything has improved in that time as well.

The hilarious thing I find in this is that many of the same fans that are now kicking Maro for concentrating more on tight work and targeting defensive breakdowns less are the exact same fans who used to suggest he needed to do more of the gritty lock work.

Englands best ever alongside Johnson is a huge call.

I know everyone thinks im barking mad and thats fair enough its just my opinion.

My reasoning for why i say he will be challenged is that he plays the game of a flanker essentially...(usually to a high level admittedly) but whats his point of difference. He doesnt carry hard, and isnt someone who really puts in huge collisions. Hes a nuisance and athletic, and consistent.

Ironically most of your own Tigers will be some of the leading contenders.

For example Ollie Chessum displays the same athleticism, and skills, his lineout etc is developing) etc all at a considerably bigger frame and for me hes very aggressive to go with it. He carries better than Itoje etc...Itoje Mk 2 if you like but bigger. None have the handling of say a Flament (who has shown some exceptional handling for a lock), but few will.

Then at the other end of the scale you have the likes of George Martin (as per link above) who brings that real physical edge and now at lock...something the France game proved we are in dire need of...(and my continued call for Ted HIll. ) Winning those collisions in attack and defence. Hitting rucks doing everything Itoje is listed as above...but with WAY more physicality.

You mention Itojes engine for 80 mins...at this level i expect EVERYONE in these positions (most locks, back row etc) to go for 80 mins...and i expect the likes of Chessum etc to do that. These are seriously athletic fit young locks coming through.

Theres a number of locks coming through who will challenge post world cup. Again, Tigers Lewis Chessum is massive and England u20 captain and really starting to "grow in to his frame" and his game. Too early just yet...but his development will be fascinating. As will some of the others 19-22 year olds coming through...

Itoje will really have to be at his peak to fight off the pretenders soon.

king_carlos wrote:

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:We haven't got a lock better than him carrying though, so again. Not sure who you would really class as a good carrier if you don't think he is. But to be honest I don't see how any of our other locks are going to improve so considerably in under a year that any coach would be dropping Itoje as first choice.

And therin lies the problem. None of our locks offer that point of difference big carrying...winning collisions in defence. One or two coming through do.

Itoje definitely wins collisions in defence. He does it through his line speed which consistently sees him make tackles well behind the gain line. He's an exceptional defensive lock on a par with the likes of Bierne.

How many locks offer a point of difference with big carrying? Bierne is an incredible support runner but doesn't barrel over people. Ryan and Lood are brilliant but wouldn't be in the big carrying bracket. Kremer and Petti perhaps but both play back row a lot now. Retallick hasn't be quite the same since injury. Nakarawa has declined from his peak too. Flament is just emerging as that sort of lock? It's a small list basically being the point.

Which brings us to Etzebeth. Who's performances in the past two years are about as good as I've ever seen in the position. If Itoje's crime is not being that Etzebeth every week then that pretty sums up how good he still is.

This has become a discussion for the England thread not the silly season one though.

Correct.

However, you are judged on the best in the game...and the best in the game have been...Retallick, Ezebeth etc etc...currently maybe Flament the the athletic style...would itoje replace them? Im not sure.

I guess we'll see...the next rugby year will be absolutely fascinating on a domestic level AND international level as far as England is concerned.