2022 FIFA World Cup

by Duty281 Sun 11 Dec 2022, 12:29 pm

"We've lost a game, I don't think we should be speaking about referees," Southgate said. "I can just compliment France and wish them good luck. They're a fantastic team."

This isn't good enough. By all means compliment the French, but this is the 8th major tournament since 1970 where incompetent officiating (at best) has played a key part in England's exit. It needs to be called out rather than just accepting it, as is the English custom. Other countries pressure officials, England do not. This is the result.

by Samo Sun 11 Dec 2022, 2:53 pm

Same old story for England. Promising start followed by losing to the first decent side they face. Then the post mortem wondering where it all went wrong, then the optimism about the future because theres lots of young talent there, then the next tournament comes round and rinse and repeat.

Could just be this is Englands level, nothing wrong with that. Certainly cant see Southgate doing more with what he's got, but could a better manager get more? Hard to tell.

by **Galted** Sun 11 Dec 2022, 6:19 pm

Having watched yesterday’s highlights, I can safely say that Rashford’s limp-wristed free kick is indicative of why England can’t get through as soon as there’s a smattering of pressure about. They have the mistaken idea that they’re possess guile, style and footballing genius and can dazzle their way to victory. The proper way to take a free kick is off a 75-yard run-up, smashed at bollock height so that it splits the wall like skittles and pins the keeper to the back of the net if he’s stupid enough to get in the way. And what’s with this idea that you need a teenager running up for a bit of whispering and face-licking if someone misses a penalty? It should be dealt with with a clip over the back of the head or a deadleg, and a reminder not to f*cking do it again. The celebrations are an embarrassment too cringeworthy for words, there’s no need for anything more than a quick fag and a pint of ale on the way back to the half-way line. Perhaps a middle-finger directed towards the opposing goalkeeper, or waving your knob at any opponents who wear hairbands. Gareth is no name for a manager either, Gareths are effeminate estate agents or bullying victims. A proper manager should be called Steve the b*stard. How the f*ck is a Gareth going to intimidate his players into laying into the French, let alone hack the Argies to pieces? With hindsight I can’t believe I wasted the best part of my Saturday night watching that shower of sh*te when I could’ve been having a bath or shouting at the Somalian kids down the road.

by Duty281 Sun 11 Dec 2022, 8:05 pm

Galted wrote:Having watched yesterday’s highlights, I can safely say that Rashford’s limp-wristed free kick is indicative of why England can’t get through as soon as there’s a smattering of pressure about. They have the mistaken idea that they’re possess guile, style and footballing genius and can dazzle their way to victory. The proper way to take a free kick is off a 75-yard run-up, smashed at bollock height so that it splits the wall like skittles and pins the keeper to the back of the net if he’s stupid enough to get in the way. And what’s with this idea that you need a teenager running up for a bit of whispering and face-licking if someone misses a penalty? It should be dealt with with a clip over the back of the head or a deadleg, and a reminder not to f*cking do it again. The celebrations are an embarrassment too cringeworthy for words, there’s no need for anything more than a quick fag and a pint of ale on the way back to the half-way line. Perhaps a middle-finger directed towards the opposing goalkeeper, or waving your knob at any opponents who wear hairbands. Gareth is no name for a manager either, Gareths are effeminate estate agents or bullying victims. A proper manager should be called Steve the b*stard. How the f*ck is a Gareth going to intimidate his players into laying into the French, let alone hack the Argies to pieces? With hindsight I can’t believe I wasted the best part of my Saturday night watching that shower of sh*te when I could’ve been having a bath or shouting at the Somalian kids down the road.

Didn't we have Steve the b*stard before? Although he ended up being Steve with an umbrella. And I'd probably let Bellingham lick my face, to be honest. I need to miss a penalty against the Frogs for that to happen?

by Duty281 Sun 11 Dec 2022, 8:07 pm

The Football Association will task technical director John McDermott with recommending Gareth Southgate’s successor as England manager if their worst fears are realised, with four men likely to top the potential candidates.

Southgate confirmed he is considering his future as manager following England’s World Cup exit, although McDermott and the FA are desperate for him to stay on and will do everything they can to convince him to see out his contract that runs until December 2024.

Brendan Rodgers, Maurico Pochettino and Thomas Tuchel would all be on the FA list of possible candidates to take over from Southgate, while assistant-manager Steve Holland could also come into consideration.

Four horrendous choices. An assistant manager, Pochettino who once failed to win a one-team league with PSG, Rodgers who's only it in for the payday, and Tuchel who manages to p!ss everyone off inside five minutes.

by **Galted** Sun 11 Dec 2022, 9:00 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Galted wrote:Having watched yesterday’s highlights, I can safely say that Rashford’s limp-wristed free kick is indicative of why England can’t get through as soon as there’s a smattering of pressure about. They have the mistaken idea that they’re possess guile, style and footballing genius and can dazzle their way to victory. The proper way to take a free kick is off a 75-yard run-up, smashed at bollock height so that it splits the wall like skittles and pins the keeper to the back of the net if he’s stupid enough to get in the way. And what’s with this idea that you need a teenager running up for a bit of whispering and face-licking if someone misses a penalty? It should be dealt with with a clip over the back of the head or a deadleg, and a reminder not to f*cking do it again. The celebrations are an embarrassment too cringeworthy for words, there’s no need for anything more than a quick fag and a pint of ale on the way back to the half-way line. Perhaps a middle-finger directed towards the opposing goalkeeper, or waving your knob at any opponents who wear hairbands. Gareth is no name for a manager either, Gareths are effeminate estate agents or bullying victims. A proper manager should be called Steve the b*stard. How the f*ck is a Gareth going to intimidate his players into laying into the French, let alone hack the Argies to pieces? With hindsight I can’t believe I wasted the best part of my Saturday night watching that shower of sh*te when I could’ve been having a bath or shouting at the Somalian kids down the road.

Didn't we have Steve the b*stard before? Although he ended up being Steve with an umbrella. And I'd probably let Bellingham lick my face, to be honest. I need to miss a penalty against the Frogs for that to happen?

That was Steve the c*nt with the *mbrella, being another ex Borough manager I sense a theme.

And Bellingham's melodrama in front of the ref made Graham Norton look like a picture of brooding tranquility, you're welcome to him.

by dummy_half Mon 12 Dec 2022, 9:23 am

Good to be able to read some sensible comments on the ENgland game rather than the absurdities on the BBC site.
England played pretty well -
First French goal should have been a free kick for the foul on Saka and then the team lost shape retreating (with Saka out of position on the ground), got too deep and allowed too much space to the French midfielder just outside the area. Very good strike though.

First half penalty claim - clear foul, but perhaps judged to be outside the area, and therefore not awardable by VAR?

Our second penalty I suggested to the Missus that someone else should take it (or that hard down the middle was the choice). Always difficult to take two penalties in a game especially against a keeper that knows you very well, although I expected a save rather than a blaze over the bar.

Lloris made a few decent saves, and on another day Maguire's header stays just inside the post.

The ref had a stinker.

No issues with the team Southgate picked or how he asked them to play. Arguable that taking Saka off for Sterling was the wrong choice (Saka was causing more problems than Foden), but we don't have access to the performance info that the bench have, and whether Saka had just run himself out.

Just one of those games where there was not much between the teams, and the French had a bit of luck (second goal takes a big deflection off Maguire's shoulder and could easily have gone wide).

by GSC Mon 12 Dec 2022, 10:39 am

Duty281 wrote:The Football Association will task technical director John McDermott with recommending Gareth Southgate’s successor as England manager if their worst fears are realised, with four men likely to top the potential candidates.

Southgate confirmed he is considering his future as manager following England’s World Cup exit, although McDermott and the FA are desperate for him to stay on and will do everything they can to convince him to see out his contract that runs until December 2024.

Brendan Rodgers, Maurico Pochettino and Thomas Tuchel would all be on the FA list of possible candidates to take over from Southgate, while assistant-manager Steve Holland could also come into consideration.

Four horrendous choices. An assistant manager, Pochettino who once failed to win a one-team league with PSG, Rodgers who's only it in for the payday, and Tuchel who manages to p!ss everyone off inside five minutes.

Some interesting names, assuming Gareth is going to walk which I'd probably lean as the more likely outcome.

Not particularly fussed by Brendan. Think he's a better manager than he probably gets credit for after Leicester and Liverpool stalled for reasons at least partly out of his control. But comes with a fair amount of baggage.

Big concern with Poch or Tuchel would be are they gonna run to the first big club that has a midseason opening. Poch doesn't really fit at an elite club where he has to manage superstars but that's less of an issue at the international stage I think. Otherwise he understands how to improve players, build a cohesive etc.

Tuchel meanwhile falls out with everyone as Duty notes, albeit again there's less scope for that with England. Understands how to win the big matches which Gareth hasn't gotten over the line in.

Cooper would probably be a wildcard

by **superflyweight** Mon 12 Dec 2022, 10:53 am

Duty281 wrote:"We've lost a game, I don't think we should be speaking about referees," Southgate said. "I can just compliment France and wish them good luck. They're a fantastic team."

This isn't good enough. By all means compliment the French, but this is the 8th major tournament since 1970 where incompetent officiating (at best) has played a key part in England's exit. It needs to be called out rather than just accepting it, as is the English custom. Other countries pressure officials, England do not. This is the result.

How many penalties did you want / need? England have had plenty of officiating 'gifts' over the years as well - but no worse and no better than anyone else.

by Luckless Pedestrian Mon 12 Dec 2022, 11:17 am

They asked Peter Walton about the Saka incident in the run-up to France's first goal, he told them he didn't think it was a free kick. A few minutes later, Sam Matterface was saying it was '50/50 at best'. What's the point of using a former referee if you're going to reject the bits you don't like?

by Duty281 Mon 12 Dec 2022, 11:30 am

Walton is pointless as he just goes along with what has been decided on the field. Referees union or something. If VAR had gone back and overturned it then Walton would have been saying it was a clear foul, which it obviously was.

Can't believe FIFA put in such an inexperienced, non-European referee for the biggest game of the tournament so far.

by Duty281 Mon 12 Dec 2022, 11:33 am

superflyweight wrote:
Duty281 wrote:"We've lost a game, I don't think we should be speaking about referees," Southgate said. "I can just compliment France and wish them good luck. They're a fantastic team."

This isn't good enough. By all means compliment the French, but this is the 8th major tournament since 1970 where incompetent officiating (at best) has played a key part in England's exit. It needs to be called out rather than just accepting it, as is the English custom. Other countries pressure officials, England do not. This is the result.

How many penalties did you want / need? England have had plenty of officiating 'gifts' over the years as well - but no worse and no better than anyone else.

Go on then, let's hear these gifts and let's see if they cancel out the eight tournaments where incompetent officiating played a key part in England exiting.

I can start you off with Spain being unfortunately denied against England in 1996, that was harsh on them.

by Duty281 Mon 12 Dec 2022, 11:35 am

GSC wrote:
Duty281 wrote:The Football Association will task technical director John McDermott with recommending Gareth Southgate’s successor as England manager if their worst fears are realised, with four men likely to top the potential candidates.

Southgate confirmed he is considering his future as manager following England’s World Cup exit, although McDermott and the FA are desperate for him to stay on and will do everything they can to convince him to see out his contract that runs until December 2024.

Brendan Rodgers, Maurico Pochettino and Thomas Tuchel would all be on the FA list of possible candidates to take over from Southgate, while assistant-manager Steve Holland could also come into consideration.

Four horrendous choices. An assistant manager, Pochettino who once failed to win a one-team league with PSG, Rodgers who's only it in for the payday, and Tuchel who manages to p!ss everyone off inside five minutes.

Some interesting names, assuming Gareth is going to walk which I'd probably lean as the more likely outcome.

Not particularly fussed by Brendan. Think he's a better manager than he probably gets credit for after Leicester and Liverpool stalled for reasons at least partly out of his control. But comes with a fair amount of baggage.

Big concern with Poch or Tuchel would be are they gonna run to the first big club that has a midseason opening. Poch doesn't really fit at an elite club where he has to manage superstars but that's less of an issue at the international stage I think. Otherwise he understands how to improve players, build a cohesive etc.

Tuchel meanwhile falls out with everyone as Duty notes, albeit again there's less scope for that with England. Understands how to win the big matches which Gareth hasn't gotten over the line in.

Cooper would probably be a wildcard

It sounds like the start of a bad joke. A Celtic fan, an Argentine and a German walk into a job interview to manage England...

by Duty281 Mon 12 Dec 2022, 11:43 am

Duty281 wrote:Walton is pointless as he just goes along with what has been decided on the field. Referees union or something. If VAR had gone back and overturned it then Walton would have been saying it was a clear foul, which it obviously was.

Can't believe FIFA put in such an inexperienced, non-European referee for the biggest game of the tournament so far.

On the topic of what former referees think, here's Keith Hackett:

Sampaio's worst error was his failure to recognise that the challenge by Dayot Upamecano on Harry Kane was a deliberate foul from behind – the boot of the French player making clear contact with Kane's right leg just below the knee.

I was up from my chair watching and pointing a finger towards the penalty mark and then sat open-mouthed watching the referee turn away and rule no offence had been committed. Sampaio was totally wrong and I thought Var would intervene and rectify the error.

I assume he did not because he thought that the foul took place outside the penalty area. I looked carefully at replays and on the evidence in front of me I still say penalty kick. I am satisfied that Kane's leg when foul contact was made was on the line of the penalty box. It is interesting that Fifa, with all its gizmos, has still not provided photographic evidence to support Var on this one.

Eight minutes earlier Sampaio and his team had been found wanting when we had the clear foul on Bukayo Saka, with Upamecano the transgressor. It was ignored by the assistant referee who failed to flag and by the referee, who was not in a good position to judge.

by GSC Mon 12 Dec 2022, 12:11 pm

England were hurt more by a pretty objectively bad refereeing performance, in particular allowing France to tee off on Saka repeatedly when the LB couldn't live with him. Probably why he was withdrawn.

But the ref didn't leave Giroud unmarked with 10 to go nor sky a penalty with 5 to go. It's frustrating but England still had the opportunities to win it on their own.

by dummy_half Mon 12 Dec 2022, 12:24 pm

On the Kane foul, none of the camera angles shown were clear as to whether it was in or out of the area. I find it hard to believe that the VAR checker didn't consider it a foul, but perhaps judged it as outside the box and therefore outside the range of decisions that VAR can overturn. Was very close though...

Anyway, while I've generally been a supporter of Southgate as manager, and think at the very least he deserved praise for the imrpved team spirit amongst England squads over the last 4 or 5 years, I do wonder if it is time to look elsewhere in the hope of finding a coach who can see us actually winning some of these big games. We're not far off and with a predominantly young side, should be well up there in the next Euros and perhaps WC - only really Walker and Henderson (perhaps Sterling, because of a loss of form and limited game time) that are close to the exit, with decent replacements for all.

by Duty281 Mon 12 Dec 2022, 12:30 pm

GSC wrote:England were hurt more by a pretty objectively bad refereeing performance, in particular allowing France to tee off on Saka repeatedly when the LB couldn't live with him. Probably why he was withdrawn.

But the ref didn't leave Giroud unmarked with 10 to go nor sky a penalty with 5 to go. It's frustrating but England still had the opportunities to win it on their own.

Undoubtedly. Maguire losing Giroud was the key moment - I imagine Maguire is feeling almost as most anguish as Kane, because not only did he lose Giroud but he narrowly put a header wide a few minutes before, which would have given England the lead.

England did have opportunities to win it on their own, but the officiating made it an uphill struggle. It's like in 2010. Yes England had further opportunities to level it after Lampard's goal wasn't seen, but it shouldn't have come to that. It should have already been 2-2 and England shouldn't have been chasing it. And England shouldn't have been chasing on Saturday because France's first shouldn't have happened.

by Duty281 Mon 12 Dec 2022, 12:34 pm

dummy_half wrote:On the Kane foul, none of the camera angles shown were clear as to whether it was in or out of the area. I find it hard to believe that the VAR checker didn't consider it a foul, but perhaps judged it as outside the box and therefore outside the range of decisions that VAR can overturn. Was very close though...

Anyway, while I've generally been a supporter of Southgate as manager, and think at the very least he deserved praise for the imrpved team spirit amongst England squads over the last 4 or 5 years, I do wonder if it is time to look elsewhere in the hope of finding a coach who can see us actually winning some of these big games. We're not far off and with a predominantly young side, should be well up there in the next Euros and perhaps WC - only really Walker and Henderson (perhaps Sterling, because of a loss of form and limited game time) that are close to the exit, with decent replacements for all.

Judging by the time taken by VAR, they knew it was a foul but couldn't ascertain in or out of the box with enough certainty. On one of the angles it looked as though it was on the line (so a penalty), on the other it was just outside. But how the officiating team missed it on the field was baffling.

I think Southgate is getting a lot closer to winning one of these big games. He was happy to go toe-to-toe with the world's best on Saturday, a huge improvement from the Euros final, and England were very unfortunate to come out on the losing side. England are so close to winning something that I think Southgate may regret it if he walks away and sees another manager leading England to glory in 2024/2026.

by JDizzle Mon 12 Dec 2022, 12:43 pm

GSC wrote:
Duty281 wrote:The Football Association will task technical director John McDermott with recommending Gareth Southgate’s successor as England manager if their worst fears are realised, with four men likely to top the potential candidates.

Southgate confirmed he is considering his future as manager following England’s World Cup exit, although McDermott and the FA are desperate for him to stay on and will do everything they can to convince him to see out his contract that runs until December 2024.

Brendan Rodgers, Maurico Pochettino and Thomas Tuchel would all be on the FA list of possible candidates to take over from Southgate, while assistant-manager Steve Holland could also come into consideration.

Four horrendous choices. An assistant manager, Pochettino who once failed to win a one-team league with PSG, Rodgers who's only it in for the payday, and Tuchel who manages to p!ss everyone off inside five minutes.

Some interesting names, assuming Gareth is going to walk which I'd probably lean as the more likely outcome.

Not particularly fussed by Brendan. Think he's a better manager than he probably gets credit for after Leicester and Liverpool stalled for reasons at least partly out of his control. But comes with a fair amount of baggage.

Big concern with Poch or Tuchel would be are they gonna run to the first big club that has a midseason opening. Poch doesn't really fit at an elite club where he has to manage superstars but that's less of an issue at the international stage I think. Otherwise he understands how to improve players, build a cohesive etc.

Tuchel meanwhile falls out with everyone as Duty notes, albeit again there's less scope for that with England. Understands how to win the big matches which Gareth hasn't gotten over the line in.

Cooper would probably be a wildcard

By all accounts Tuchel’s family are settled in London, kids in school etc but he is getting deported at some point unless he gets another job in the UK. So the falling out with everyone thing would be a far bigger concern than the leaving - but he does know how to win a big game.

by **superflyweight** Mon 12 Dec 2022, 12:50 pm

Duty281 wrote:
superflyweight wrote:
Duty281 wrote:"We've lost a game, I don't think we should be speaking about referees," Southgate said. "I can just compliment France and wish them good luck. They're a fantastic team."

This isn't good enough. By all means compliment the French, but this is the 8th major tournament since 1970 where incompetent officiating (at best) has played a key part in England's exit. It needs to be called out rather than just accepting it, as is the English custom. Other countries pressure officials, England do not. This is the result.

How many penalties did you want / need? England have had plenty of officiating 'gifts' over the years as well - but no worse and no better than anyone else.

Go on then, let's hear these gifts and let's see if they cancel out the eight tournaments where incompetent officiating played a key part in England exiting.

I can start you off with Spain being unfortunately denied against England in 1996, that was harsh on them.

I'd say the mother of all ghost goals in the '66 final is a fairly heavy entry on one side of the balance sheet, but I'd like to know what specific incidents you're referring to - acknowledging the hand of god and Lampard's goal in 2010 (in a game England were going to lose regardless of the momentum at that point in the game).

by Duty281 Mon 12 Dec 2022, 1:07 pm

superflyweight wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
superflyweight wrote:
Duty281 wrote:"We've lost a game, I don't think we should be speaking about referees," Southgate said. "I can just compliment France and wish them good luck. They're a fantastic team."

This isn't good enough. By all means compliment the French, but this is the 8th major tournament since 1970 where incompetent officiating (at best) has played a key part in England's exit. It needs to be called out rather than just accepting it, as is the English custom. Other countries pressure officials, England do not. This is the result.

How many penalties did you want / need? England have had plenty of officiating 'gifts' over the years as well - but no worse and no better than anyone else.

Go on then, let's hear these gifts and let's see if they cancel out the eight tournaments where incompetent officiating played a key part in England exiting.

I can start you off with Spain being unfortunately denied against England in 1996, that was harsh on them.

I'd say the mother of all ghost goals in the '66 final is a fairly heavy entry on one side of the balance sheet, but I'd like to know what specific incidents you're referring to - acknowledging the hand of god and Lampard's goal in 2010 (in a game England were going to lose regardless of the momentum at that point in the game).

The 'ghost goal' in 66 is still disputed. It may have been in, it may not have been in. No one knows for sure.

You also can't know for sure that England would have lost in 2010 if Lampard's goal had been given. England's goals that they went on to concede were because they were caught on the counter, pushing for an equaliser. It is impossible to predict with any accuracy what would have happened. Other incidents:

1970 - Colin Bell hacked down in the penalty area when England were trailing 3-2. Not given. https://youtu.be/Ps3JBN1vAe0?t=525
1986 - Hand of God, as you said.
1990 - Platt's goal disallowed for offside (which he wasn't) in golden goal ET v Germany. https://youtu.be/vowUoccBT4E?t=718 Also Waddle was taken out in the box earlier in the game when England were trailing, which should have been a penalty, although Lineker's equaliser made that fairly moot.
1998 - Argentinian defender plays volleyball in his own penalty area during golden goal ET. https://youtu.be/bezH7GOKnNs?t=6025
2004 - Campbell's disallowed goal which would have put England into a semi-final. No clip but I'm sure you can visualise it.
2010 - Lampard, as said.
2014 - Godin should have been sent off for Uruguay with the score 0-0. No clip, so we'll settle for the Guardian: 29 mins: Godin gets away with one! Sturridge dummies to Rooney and spins for the return pass, but Godin blocks him with an elbow. A yellow card every time, which of course would have been his second. The referee keeps his cards pocketed. Uruguay went on to win 2-1.

by **superflyweight** Mon 12 Dec 2022, 1:34 pm

Duty281 wrote:
superflyweight wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
superflyweight wrote:
Duty281 wrote:"We've lost a game, I don't think we should be speaking about referees," Southgate said. "I can just compliment France and wish them good luck. They're a fantastic team."

This isn't good enough. By all means compliment the French, but this is the 8th major tournament since 1970 where incompetent officiating (at best) has played a key part in England's exit. It needs to be called out rather than just accepting it, as is the English custom. Other countries pressure officials, England do not. This is the result.

How many penalties did you want / need? England have had plenty of officiating 'gifts' over the years as well - but no worse and no better than anyone else.

Go on then, let's hear these gifts and let's see if they cancel out the eight tournaments where incompetent officiating played a key part in England exiting.

I can start you off with Spain being unfortunately denied against England in 1996, that was harsh on them.

I'd say the mother of all ghost goals in the '66 final is a fairly heavy entry on one side of the balance sheet, but I'd like to know what specific incidents you're referring to - acknowledging the hand of god and Lampard's goal in 2010 (in a game England were going to lose regardless of the momentum at that point in the game).

The 'ghost goal' in 66 is still disputed. It may have been in, it may not have been in. No one knows for sure.

You also can't know for sure that England would have lost in 2010 if Lampard's goal had been given. England's goals that they went on to concede were because they were caught on the counter, pushing for an equaliser. It is impossible to predict with any accuracy what would have happened. Other incidents:

1970 - Colin Bell hacked down in the penalty area when England were trailing 3-2. Not given. https://youtu.be/Ps3JBN1vAe0?t=525 Bad decision, but of its time and not unusual to see tackles like that go unpunished.
1986 - Hand of God, as you said.
1990 - Platt's goal disallowed for offside (which he wasn't) in golden goal ET v Germany. https://youtu.be/vowUoccBT4E?t=718 Also Waddle was taken out in the box earlier in the game when England were trailing, which should have been a penalty, although Lineker's equaliser made that fairly moot. Would now be picked up by VAR, but it's not an egregious decision - demonstrated by the lack of on-field protests Prior to VAR these kind of decisions were commonplace.
1998 - Argentinian defender plays volleyball in his own penalty area during golden goal ET. https://youtu.be/bezH7GOKnNs?t=6025 Hardly a bad decision - took me two goes to see it and may not have been given in '98, even if the ref did see it.
2004 - Campbell's disallowed goal which would have put England into a semi-final. No clip but I'm sure you can visualise it. Shearer was assaulting another Argentinian - raise it with him.
2010 - Lampard, as said.
2014 - Godin should have been sent off for Uruguay with the scores 0-0. No clip, so we'll settle for the Guardian: 29 mins: Godin gets away with one! Sturridge dummies to Rooney and spins for the return pass, but Godin blocks him with an elbow. A yellow card every time, which of course would have been his second. The referee keeps his cards pocketed. Uruguay went on to win 2-1. Plenty of players get off with things like that in those circumstances.

Some bad decisions (some worse than others) but no evidence of an ongoing conspiracy against the plucky English and their Corinthian spirit. You're picking things that go against one team in the cut and thrust of a game whist ignoring any number of incidents where a 50/50 call was made in favour of England. Every team that competes regularly in the World Cup will have their own list of similar moments.

by Duty281 Mon 12 Dec 2022, 1:44 pm

1990 was a very egregious decision. On-field protests weren't very common in those days, especially by English players. 1998 was a very bad decision, the referee had already given two very soft penalties and to not see that one is ludicrous. 2004 you've visualised the wrong one; the one with Shearer's elbow was in 1998, I don't have an issue with that. 2014 was still a bad, game-changing decision, even if other referees also make errors.

I'm not alleging a conspiracy, I'm saying incompetent officiating is continually going against England at very key moments in major tournaments, and we saw that again on Saturday. And Southgate not talking about it isn't helping. This doesn't happen to other countries because other countries tend to pressurise officials. England rarely do and it doesn't help their cause.

I don't think I'm ignoring incidents that go in England's favour - if you know of key decisions that wrongly went England's way in those games, please flag them up.

by **superflyweight** Mon 12 Dec 2022, 1:53 pm

Duty281 wrote:1990 was a very egregious decision. On-field protests weren't very common in those days, especially by English players. 1998 was a very bad decision, the referee had already given two very soft penalties and to not see that one is ludicrous. 2004 you've visualised the wrong one; the one with Shearer's elbow was in 1998, I don't have an issue with that. 2014 was still a bad, game-changing decision, even if other referees also make errors.

I'm not alleging a conspiracy, I'm saying incompetent officiating is continually going against England at very key moments in major tournaments, and we saw that again on Saturday. And Southgate not talking about it isn't helping. This doesn't happen to other countries because other countries tend to pressurise officials. England rarely do and it doesn't help their cause.

I don't think I'm ignoring incidents that go in England's favour - if you know of key decisions that wrongly went England's way in those games, please flag them up.

Sorry - misread the reference to the 2004 and was thinking of '98. I don 't recall the Campbell one.

Plenty of other countries have hard luck stories over the years (France in '82 just about eclipsing all others (and they almost suffered a similar fate in '86 against Brazil but ultimately didn't affect the result). Spain and Italy still complain about South Korea in '02. Pele was booted into the fiery pits of hell by Portugal and Hungary in '66. Puskas was kicked out of the '54 final.

I don't have a list of incidents that went in favour of England because I was generally too busy celebrating their exit - although have a vague memory that Owen 'won' his penalty against Brazil in '02. Seen them given, but recall it being soft.

by Duty281 Mon 12 Dec 2022, 2:39 pm

superflyweight wrote:
Duty281 wrote:1990 was a very egregious decision. On-field protests weren't very common in those days, especially by English players. 1998 was a very bad decision, the referee had already given two very soft penalties and to not see that one is ludicrous. 2004 you've visualised the wrong one; the one with Shearer's elbow was in 1998, I don't have an issue with that. 2014 was still a bad, game-changing decision, even if other referees also make errors.

I'm not alleging a conspiracy, I'm saying incompetent officiating is continually going against England at very key moments in major tournaments, and we saw that again on Saturday. And Southgate not talking about it isn't helping. This doesn't happen to other countries because other countries tend to pressurise officials. England rarely do and it doesn't help their cause.

I don't think I'm ignoring incidents that go in England's favour - if you know of key decisions that wrongly went England's way in those games, please flag them up.

Sorry - misread the reference to the 2004 and was thinking of '98. I don 't recall the Campbell one.

Plenty of other countries have hard luck stories over the years (France in '82 just about eclipsing all others (and they almost suffered a similar fate in '86 against Brazil but ultimately didn't affect the result). Spain and Italy still complain about South Korea in '02. Pele was booted into the fiery pits of hell by Portugal and Hungary in '66. Puskas was kicked out of the '54 final.

I don't have a list of incidents that went in favour of England because I was generally too busy celebrating their exit - although have a vague memory that Owen 'won' his penalty against Brazil in '02. Seen them given, but recall it being soft.

Of course other countries have had hard luck stories over the years, but none have been as prolonged as England's struggle with incompetent officiating. I'm sorry you don't have such a list, earlier you said England have had plenty of gifts over the years, I can only really recall the Spain game from 1996 in that column.

Owen had two soft penalties in his favour, both against Argentina, one in 1998 and 2002. Both soft, but both penalties and certainly not gifts.

by **superflyweight** Mon 12 Dec 2022, 2:56 pm

Duty281 wrote:
superflyweight wrote:
Duty281 wrote:1990 was a very egregious decision. On-field protests weren't very common in those days, especially by English players. 1998 was a very bad decision, the referee had already given two very soft penalties and to not see that one is ludicrous. 2004 you've visualised the wrong one; the one with Shearer's elbow was in 1998, I don't have an issue with that. 2014 was still a bad, game-changing decision, even if other referees also make errors.

I'm not alleging a conspiracy, I'm saying incompetent officiating is continually going against England at very key moments in major tournaments, and we saw that again on Saturday. And Southgate not talking about it isn't helping. This doesn't happen to other countries because other countries tend to pressurise officials. England rarely do and it doesn't help their cause.

I don't think I'm ignoring incidents that go in England's favour - if you know of key decisions that wrongly went England's way in those games, please flag them up.

Sorry - misread the reference to the 2004 and was thinking of '98. I don 't recall the Campbell one.

Plenty of other countries have hard luck stories over the years (France in '82 just about eclipsing all others (and they almost suffered a similar fate in '86 against Brazil but ultimately didn't affect the result). Spain and Italy still complain about South Korea in '02. Pele was booted into the fiery pits of hell by Portugal and Hungary in '66. Puskas was kicked out of the '54 final.

I don't have a list of incidents that went in favour of England because I was generally too busy celebrating their exit - although have a vague memory that Owen 'won' his penalty against Brazil in '02. Seen them given, but recall it being soft.

Of course other countries have had hard luck stories over the years, but none have been as prolonged as England's struggle with incompetent officiating. I'm sorry you don't have such a list, earlier you said England have had plenty of gifts over the years, I can only really recall the Spain game from 1996 in that column.

Owen had two soft penalties in his favour, both against Argentina, one in 1998 and 2002. Both soft, but both penalties and certainly not gifts.

But you're looking at that through English tinted glasses. I thought the one against Brazil was a gift and I suspect plenty of Brazilians did as well. I'd forgotten about the Argentinian one - also a 50/50 now that I think about it, and one that went in England's favour. We all elevate decisions based on our prejudices - hence why you call the Platt offside decision "egregious" when it's no worse than countless offside decisions over the years and falls within the margin of error for the naked eye.

England have had plenty of decisions go in their favours - most teams have and to think anything else is tin-foil hat territory.

by Duty281 Mon 12 Dec 2022, 4:16 pm

superflyweight wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
superflyweight wrote:
Duty281 wrote:1990 was a very egregious decision. On-field protests weren't very common in those days, especially by English players. 1998 was a very bad decision, the referee had already given two very soft penalties and to not see that one is ludicrous. 2004 you've visualised the wrong one; the one with Shearer's elbow was in 1998, I don't have an issue with that. 2014 was still a bad, game-changing decision, even if other referees also make errors.

I'm not alleging a conspiracy, I'm saying incompetent officiating is continually going against England at very key moments in major tournaments, and we saw that again on Saturday. And Southgate not talking about it isn't helping. This doesn't happen to other countries because other countries tend to pressurise officials. England rarely do and it doesn't help their cause.

I don't think I'm ignoring incidents that go in England's favour - if you know of key decisions that wrongly went England's way in those games, please flag them up.

Sorry - misread the reference to the 2004 and was thinking of '98. I don 't recall the Campbell one.

Plenty of other countries have hard luck stories over the years (France in '82 just about eclipsing all others (and they almost suffered a similar fate in '86 against Brazil but ultimately didn't affect the result). Spain and Italy still complain about South Korea in '02. Pele was booted into the fiery pits of hell by Portugal and Hungary in '66. Puskas was kicked out of the '54 final.

I don't have a list of incidents that went in favour of England because I was generally too busy celebrating their exit - although have a vague memory that Owen 'won' his penalty against Brazil in '02. Seen them given, but recall it being soft.

Of course other countries have had hard luck stories over the years, but none have been as prolonged as England's struggle with incompetent officiating. I'm sorry you don't have such a list, earlier you said England have had plenty of gifts over the years, I can only really recall the Spain game from 1996 in that column.

Owen had two soft penalties in his favour, both against Argentina, one in 1998 and 2002. Both soft, but both penalties and certainly not gifts.

But you're looking at that through English tinted glasses. I thought the one against Brazil was a gift and I suspect plenty of Brazilians did as well. I'd forgotten about the Argentinian one - also a 50/50 now that I think about it, and one that went in England's favour. We all elevate decisions based on our prejudices - hence why you call the Platt offside decision "egregious" when it's no worse than countless offside decisions over the years and falls within the margin of error for the naked eye.

England have had plenty of decisions go in their favours - most teams have and to think anything else is tin-foil hat territory.

There wasn't one v Brazil, that's why I brought up the two against Argentina because that's the one I think you're remembering. The one in 1998 was soft, but so was Argentina's first penalty. Fair call because the referee was consistent. The one in 2002 was also soft, but Owen should have arguably had a penalty five minutes before that anyway.

Platt's decision is egregiously wrong. It's objectively wrong and it's not, by the standards of the game, a marginal one. It's a terrible call. And without the incompetence of the official England are into a World Cup final.

England have had decisions go in their favour, of course they have, I brought up the Spain game from 1996 where England were very fortunate. But that is a rarity. England rarely get marginal calls in their favour in tournament-defining games, and Saturday was another example of this. I can think of Spain 1996, but that's genuinely it.

The majority of the time incompetence is going against England and at very key moments. It simply isn't good enough.

I don't really think I'm looking at it through English-tinted glasses. We can surely all agree that the decisions in the games listed were wrong, by any objective measure, and these incorrect decisions had a key role in England exiting those respective tournaments.

by **superflyweight** Mon 12 Dec 2022, 4:36 pm

Duty281 wrote:
superflyweight wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
superflyweight wrote:
Duty281 wrote:1990 was a very egregious decision. On-field protests weren't very common in those days, especially by English players. 1998 was a very bad decision, the referee had already given two very soft penalties and to not see that one is ludicrous. 2004 you've visualised the wrong one; the one with Shearer's elbow was in 1998, I don't have an issue with that. 2014 was still a bad, game-changing decision, even if other referees also make errors.

I'm not alleging a conspiracy, I'm saying incompetent officiating is continually going against England at very key moments in major tournaments, and we saw that again on Saturday. And Southgate not talking about it isn't helping. This doesn't happen to other countries because other countries tend to pressurise officials. England rarely do and it doesn't help their cause.

I don't think I'm ignoring incidents that go in England's favour - if you know of key decisions that wrongly went England's way in those games, please flag them up.

Sorry - misread the reference to the 2004 and was thinking of '98. I don 't recall the Campbell one.

Plenty of other countries have hard luck stories over the years (France in '82 just about eclipsing all others (and they almost suffered a similar fate in '86 against Brazil but ultimately didn't affect the result). Spain and Italy still complain about South Korea in '02. Pele was booted into the fiery pits of hell by Portugal and Hungary in '66. Puskas was kicked out of the '54 final.

I don't have a list of incidents that went in favour of England because I was generally too busy celebrating their exit - although have a vague memory that Owen 'won' his penalty against Brazil in '02. Seen them given, but recall it being soft.

Of course other countries have had hard luck stories over the years, but none have been as prolonged as England's struggle with incompetent officiating. I'm sorry you don't have such a list, earlier you said England have had plenty of gifts over the years, I can only really recall the Spain game from 1996 in that column.

Owen had two soft penalties in his favour, both against Argentina, one in 1998 and 2002. Both soft, but both penalties and certainly not gifts.

But you're looking at that through English tinted glasses. I thought the one against Brazil was a gift and I suspect plenty of Brazilians did as well. I'd forgotten about the Argentinian one - also a 50/50 now that I think about it, and one that went in England's favour. We all elevate decisions based on our prejudices - hence why you call the Platt offside decision "egregious" when it's no worse than countless offside decisions over the years and falls within the margin of error for the naked eye.

England have had plenty of decisions go in their favours - most teams have and to think anything else is tin-foil hat territory.

There wasn't one v Brazil, that's why I brought up the two against Argentina because that's the one I think you're remembering. The one in 1998 was soft, but so was Argentina's first penalty. Fair call because the referee was consistent. The one in 2002 was also soft, but Owen should have arguably had a penalty five minutes before that anyway. Don't know why I had Brazil in '02 in my head.

Platt's decision is egregiously wrong. It's objectively wrong and it's not, by the standards of the game, a marginal one. It's a terrible call. And without the incompetence of the official England are into a World Cup final. I disagree that it's a terrible call in the circumstances. As you mentioned earlier - "It is impossible to predict with any accuracy what would have happened." - Can't have it both ways.

England have had decisions go in their favour, of course they have, I brought up the Spain game from 1996 where England were very fortunate. But that is a rarity. England rarely get marginal calls in their favour in tournament-defining games, and Saturday was another example of this. I can think of Spain 1996, but that's genuinely it. Got two in their favour in consecutive World Cup games v Argentina.

The majority of the time incompetence is going against England and at very key moments. It simply isn't good enough.

I don't really think I'm looking at it through English-tinted glasses. We can surely all agree that the decisions in the games listed were wrong, by any objective measure, and these incorrect decisions had a key role in England exiting those respective tournaments.

by Samo Tue 13 Dec 2022, 9:53 am

I cant really blame English fans for being salty about refereeing, Im still raging about the Italy game in 2007 where a bad referee decision killed any chance we had of qualifying for Euro 08.

by **superflyweight** Tue 13 Dec 2022, 10:35 am

Samo wrote:I cant really blame English fans for being salty about refereeing, Im still raging about the Italy game in 2007 where a bad referee decision killed any chance we had of qualifying for Euro 08.

I don't blame them either - just don't think they've had it any worse or any better than anyone else.

by GSC Tue 13 Dec 2022, 11:24 am

Yeah I'm not really major on blaming refs. 2010 Lampards goal should've stood. Doesn't really change that an old and mediocre England team were vastly outplayed by an ascending Germany team.

by **superflyweight** Tue 13 Dec 2022, 11:40 am

Easy to point blame at refs but could easily attribute the exits highlighted to other factors:

'70 - Banks missing game and Bonetti not up to his standards
'86 - Shilton didn't jump
'90 - Shilton deciding not to move for penalties until ball had been kicked
'98 - Beckham kicking Simeone and sending Batty up to take a penalty
'04 - Missed two penalties
'10 - England were mince
'14 - England were mince

by alfie Tue 13 Dec 2022, 11:53 am

The Hand of God and the Lampard goal were two that really upset me. Most of the others I accepted as rub of the green. Overall maybe England has been a shade unluckier than some with decisions but hard to quantify... probably most countries can list a bunch of times they reckon they got robbed...

As to the advisability of complaining vigorously I rather doubt it would help - now or later. For Southgate and his troops to have gone full-on Uruguay at the ref wasn't going to change anything except collect a few cards ; and unlikely to persuade some future ref to award a penalty for fear of being shouted at in English Smile

Reckon England got a bit of a rough deal in the game with the "close" calls. But the French won fundamentally because they took a couple of chances better than England did with
theirs. On another day . maybe ... but that's knockout football.

by Duty281 Tue 13 Dec 2022, 11:57 am

superflyweight wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
superflyweight wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
superflyweight wrote:
Duty281 wrote:1990 was a very egregious decision. On-field protests weren't very common in those days, especially by English players. 1998 was a very bad decision, the referee had already given two very soft penalties and to not see that one is ludicrous. 2004 you've visualised the wrong one; the one with Shearer's elbow was in 1998, I don't have an issue with that. 2014 was still a bad, game-changing decision, even if other referees also make errors.

I'm not alleging a conspiracy, I'm saying incompetent officiating is continually going against England at very key moments in major tournaments, and we saw that again on Saturday. And Southgate not talking about it isn't helping. This doesn't happen to other countries because other countries tend to pressurise officials. England rarely do and it doesn't help their cause.

I don't think I'm ignoring incidents that go in England's favour - if you know of key decisions that wrongly went England's way in those games, please flag them up.

Sorry - misread the reference to the 2004 and was thinking of '98. I don 't recall the Campbell one.

Plenty of other countries have hard luck stories over the years (France in '82 just about eclipsing all others (and they almost suffered a similar fate in '86 against Brazil but ultimately didn't affect the result). Spain and Italy still complain about South Korea in '02. Pele was booted into the fiery pits of hell by Portugal and Hungary in '66. Puskas was kicked out of the '54 final.

I don't have a list of incidents that went in favour of England because I was generally too busy celebrating their exit - although have a vague memory that Owen 'won' his penalty against Brazil in '02. Seen them given, but recall it being soft.

Of course other countries have had hard luck stories over the years, but none have been as prolonged as England's struggle with incompetent officiating. I'm sorry you don't have such a list, earlier you said England have had plenty of gifts over the years, I can only really recall the Spain game from 1996 in that column.

Owen had two soft penalties in his favour, both against Argentina, one in 1998 and 2002. Both soft, but both penalties and certainly not gifts.

But you're looking at that through English tinted glasses. I thought the one against Brazil was a gift and I suspect plenty of Brazilians did as well. I'd forgotten about the Argentinian one - also a 50/50 now that I think about it, and one that went in England's favour. We all elevate decisions based on our prejudices - hence why you call the Platt offside decision "egregious" when it's no worse than countless offside decisions over the years and falls within the margin of error for the naked eye.

England have had plenty of decisions go in their favours - most teams have and to think anything else is tin-foil hat territory.

There wasn't one v Brazil, that's why I brought up the two against Argentina because that's the one I think you're remembering. The one in 1998 was soft, but so was Argentina's first penalty. Fair call because the referee was consistent. The one in 2002 was also soft, but Owen should have arguably had a penalty five minutes before that anyway. Don't know why I had Brazil in '02 in my head.

Platt's decision is egregiously wrong. It's objectively wrong and it's not, by the standards of the game, a marginal one. It's a terrible call. And without the incompetence of the official England are into a World Cup final. I disagree that it's a terrible call in the circumstances. As you mentioned earlier - "It is impossible to predict with any accuracy what would have happened." - Can't have it both ways.

England have had decisions go in their favour, of course they have, I brought up the Spain game from 1996 where England were very fortunate. But that is a rarity. England rarely get marginal calls in their favour in tournament-defining games, and Saturday was another example of this. I can think of Spain 1996, but that's genuinely it. Got two in their favour in consecutive World Cup games v Argentina.

The majority of the time incompetence is going against England and at very key moments. It simply isn't good enough.

I don't really think I'm looking at it through English-tinted glasses. We can surely all agree that the decisions in the games listed were wrong, by any objective measure, and these incorrect decisions had a key role in England exiting those respective tournaments.

Yes, I shouldn't have stated 'marginal', but fair, calls. I meant egregiously wrong decisions in England's favour are a rarity. There's Spain 1996, but that appears to be the only one, compared to eight key tournament games against.

With regards to predicting with accuracy, the England-Germany 2010 game would have been 2-2 with 50 minutes to play. Impossible to know what would have happened. If Platt's goal had stood, England would have been leading 2-1 with about six minutes left, and would have been heavily odds-on to win.

by Duty281 Tue 13 Dec 2022, 12:03 pm

superflyweight wrote:Easy to point blame at refs but could easily attribute the exits highlighted to other factors:

'70 - Banks missing game and Bonetti not up to his standards
'86 - Shilton didn't jump
'90 - Shilton deciding not to move for penalties until ball had been kicked
'98 - Beckham kicking Simeone and sending Batty up to take a penalty
'04 - Missed two penalties
'10 - England were mince
'14 - England were mince

Yes, I'm not saying the incompetent refereeing decisions were the only factor, but they were a key, game-changing factor that made England's battle harder than it should have been, as we saw again on Saturday.

by Luckless Pedestrian Tue 13 Dec 2022, 4:05 pm

So who are we tipping for tonight's match?

As disappointed as I was to see the Dutch lose to Argentina, what an incredible game of football that was! If the Dutch had spent extra time raining in crosses and long balls, I'm not sure Argentina would have withstood it, to be honest. But still, it was a privilege to watch, needle and all!

I'd like to see Croatia win, in part because they're underdogs, in part because they're an inspiration to small countries the world over, and in part because some of Argentina's players have no class whatsoever. But I have a feeling they'll come up short. It might come down to whether fatigue affects Croatia more than nerves / expectation affects Argentina.

by GSC Tue 13 Dec 2022, 4:38 pm

Think it's probably a better matchup for Croatia than their game against Brazil. Keep it 0-0 for a while and Argentina may lose their heads again as they have a few times in this tournament

But above all else Croatia need their luck to hold. Being outplayed and holding for penalties can surely only work so many times

by **superflyweight** Tue 13 Dec 2022, 4:39 pm

Can't see past Croatia for this one. Not entirely sure why - just think they're streetwise enough to deal with the occasion, whereas emotion may get the better of Argentina.

by Duty281 Tue 13 Dec 2022, 5:56 pm

For whatever reason I think Croatia will come through again. It goes against logic, as Belgium, Japan and Brazil all had an ample number of chances to put them out of the World Cup, but they all faltered and Croatia are the masters of penalties.

Argentina have been very reliant on Messi so far, so if he has an off night/Croatia shut him down I think they'll struggle to create. Their defence has shown plenty of vulnerability, also, and Croatia are a clinical side.

Wouldn't be surprised to see it go the distance once more. Whichever team gets through, I can't see them troubling France.

by alfie Tue 13 Dec 2022, 7:43 pm

Croatia are going to need a magic get out of jail card to come back into this I'm afraid ...

Think that luck of theirs has run out at last.

by GSC Tue 13 Dec 2022, 7:46 pm

Aye, be a big ask to get to penalties from here. Still, the Dutch showed if you can get one, this isn't the most composed team under pressure

by Duty281 Tue 13 Dec 2022, 7:54 pm

Croatia will be hugely disappointed because the majority of the game has gone to their plan and their midfield has passed the ball around well, especially Kovacic.

But two terrible moments in defence have cost them. Lovren inexplicably staying deep allowing the first goal; and then terrible defending with two chances to take the ball missed and it's 2-0. Simply can't afford that at this level.

Croatia have moved the ball well, but they need something extra to actually create chances. Perisic has had plenty of it but wastes it all the time. If they get one back, without conceding further, before 65/70 minutes the brittle Argentines may panic, so all isn't lost.

by alfie Tue 13 Dec 2022, 8:32 pm

Ah well just have to say hats off to Messi and Alvarez... Too good thumbsup

by GSC Tue 13 Dec 2022, 8:51 pm

Luck really ran out for Croatia, Messi and Alvarez didn't look like they fancied letting them off the hook like others have. Still, another strong tournament and a famous win over Brazil with it

One last chance for Messi to win the most elusive trophy and redeem 2014

by alfie Tue 13 Dec 2022, 9:07 pm

Maybe fatigue after a lot of extra minutes having some effect too. But Argentina seem to have mastered the art of peaking at the right time...far and away the best they've played here and perhaps they have on more step up their sleeve ?

Presume it will be France they'll have to beat : tough. But after this one I won't write them off.

Heck of a turn around after losing to Saudi Arabia !

by Duty281 Tue 13 Dec 2022, 9:14 pm

Professional and clinical from Argentina as they punished Croatia's errors. France are going to be a massive step-up, however.

by **superflyweight** Wed 14 Dec 2022, 9:12 am

superflyweight wrote:Can't see past Croatia for this one. Not entirely sure why - just think they're streetwise enough to deal with the occasion, whereas emotion may get the better of Argentina.

Top class analysis!

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 14 Dec 2022, 10:04 am

superflyweight wrote:
superflyweight wrote:Can't see past Croatia for this one. Not entirely sure why - just think they're streetwise enough to deal with the occasion, whereas emotion may get the better of Argentina.

Top class analysis!

We've all been there! Laugh

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 14 Dec 2022, 10:06 am

Duty281 wrote:Croatia will be hugely disappointed because the majority of the game has gone to their plan and their midfield has passed the ball around well, especially Kovacic.

But two terrible moments in defence have cost them. Lovren inexplicably staying deep allowing the first goal; and then terrible defending with two chances to take the ball missed and it's 2-0. Simply can't afford that at this level.

Croatia have moved the ball well, but they need something extra to actually create chances. Perisic has had plenty of it but wastes it all the time. If they get one back, without conceding further, before 65/70 minutes the brittle Argentines may panic, so all isn't lost.

They passed the ball beautifully at times, didn't they.

by **Pal Joey** Wed 14 Dec 2022, 10:12 am

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
superflyweight wrote:
superflyweight wrote:Can't see past Croatia for this one. Not entirely sure why - just think they're streetwise enough to deal with the occasion, whereas emotion may get the better of Argentina.

Top class analysis!

We've all been there!

Duty281 wrote:For whatever reason I think Croatia will come through again. It goes against logic...

Great minds think alike... even if you disagree from time to time. Red Card 2

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