ULSTER RUGBY 2022/2023 - SEASON RUN IN

First topic message reminder :

Christ on a bike you lot are downbeat for a side that are currently in the top 4 of the league!!

Kingshu wrote:So Munster have a double header V the Baa Baas, womens then mens teams. Got the SA XV recently too, what do Ulster have to do to get these games? Owe the IRFU a ton of cash as well?

Tigers used to go in for these things as well but apparently the fees the touring teams demand has made it less lucrative than it used to be. You need to have a big attendance to make it worthwhile and as the games often fall midweek it's not guaranteed.

Maybe Ulster don't fancy the risk as you've got to put a lot of resources into marketing, opening up the stadium etc etc as well as paying the touring side fee. If Munster are up against it financially then it's a case of squeeze every penny and take the risk.

geoff999rugby wrote:It is because they owe a lot of cash that they get the games.
The IRFU don't want to have to admit Munster haven't got the income to pay the money back in anything like a reasonable period.
By throwing match (read cash) at Munster they can show each year they are able to pay some back.  

Rewards bad management and shows a provincial bias if you ask me.

The IRFU recognised this a number of years ago which is why they changed the terms of the loan. They own 50% of the Thomond asset though the stadium joint venture company. Munster now have a revised €100k per annum repayment schedule plus 50% of sales of events at Thomond, and 5/10-year ticket sales, which paid down a good chunk a few years ago. Details of loan terms are set out in the annual report each year.

The game in Pairc Ui Chaoimh did not generate revenue for IRFU, it went to the Branch. But the gig in Thomond did as its revenues/profits accrue in the TP company.

Ulster were not offered any games by the IRFU this year or last

geoff999rugby wrote:Ulster were not offered any games by the IRFU this year or last

Neither were Leinster or Connacht. It's up to the branch to push for it.

Pot Hale wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Ulster were not offered any games by the IRFU this year or last

Neither were Leinster or Connacht.   It's up to the branch to push for it.  

Leinster played Chile. I remember reading somewhere that its the IRFU organise these games.

Kingshu wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Ulster were not offered any games by the IRFU this year or last

Neither were Leinster or Connacht.   It's up to the branch to push for it.  

Leinster played Chile. I remember reading somewhere that its the IRFU organise these games.

Leinster played Chile in front of one man and his dog in Donnybrook. It was not a money spinning exercise.

Ulster have tried to get these types of games against top flight teams like other tier 1 nations and Barbars they keep getting knocked back.


The only one we have had in the last 25 years, and possible longer, is Ireland v Italy.

Games against Portugal and Uruguay are a not a substitute not even close

Kingshu wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Ulster were not offered any games by the IRFU this year or last

Neither were Leinster or Connacht.   It's up to the branch to push for it.  

Leinster played Chile. I remember reading somewhere that its the IRFU organise these games.

Chile requested the fixture as a tune up for their World Cup preparations. It was also free entry for everyone to the game, hardly comparable.

geoff999rugby wrote:Ulster have tried to get these types of games against  top flight teams like other tier 1 nations and Barbars they keep getting knocked back.


The only one we have had in the last 25 years, and possible longer, is Ireland v Italy.

Games against Portugal and Uruguay are a not a substitute not even close

The u20s are selling out Musgrave with ease. Surely Ulster could push at least one home game being played up your way?

A match against the Barbarians or any Tier 1 side would be a guaranteed sell out.
Also a fair few Tier 2 teams
But we don't get them inspite of pushing for them

Petrie is doing a fan Q and A thing online this week sometime, tomorrow I think? Maybe we ask him what he thinks about getting some of those games. I doubt he would tell us the truth but ocassionally their responses give you more than they intended

Petrie said a lot without really saying anything, in case anyone was wondering how his fan address went

neilthom7 wrote:Petrie said a lot without really saying anything, in case anyone was wondering how his fan address went

There wasn't a lot of substance was there?
We've been used to our deceitful, vague politicians for years here so we're all well accustomed to BS.
Making promises about the pitch and how it'll suit how we want to play is one thing, having the squad to play successfully on it is another.

The news on Addison sounds promising though. If he's going to take part in a full pre-season then hopefully we could be seeing when the new season begins.

It's good news if he makes it through pre season without picking up another injury

Pete330v2 wrote:

neilthom7 wrote:Petrie said a lot without really saying anything, in case anyone was wondering how his fan address went

There wasn't a lot of substance was there?
We've been used to our deceitful, vague politicians for years here so we're all well accustomed to BS.
Making promises about the pitch and how it'll suit how we want to play is one thing, having the squad to play successfully on it is another.

The news on Addison sounds promising though. If he's going to take part in a full pre-season then hopefully we could be seeing when the new season begins.

Addison coming back was one of the few things from last night that was actually useful. I really do hope he can stay fit, he's such a clasy player

Would Jackson come back if he was offered it? Or does he feel betrayed I wonder?
Is it even a slight possibility he would return? What’s the chances he calls it quits and retires.
Would any other clubs be keen on him?

And lastly, is there no other Irish qualified talents looking a home from these clubs that are failing?

Nucifoa did say he would never say never to a return of Olding and Jackson, but I think that was just words as they had just been forced overseas ant not eligible for selection anyway, it was the most neutral thing he could say.

If Jackson is to return this is the best chance, but I don't see the IRFU allowing it, they don't want negative publicity leading up to a WC.

For Jackson, I can't see an English team having room in their salary caps at this stage, and wgile he was very good in England, at Perpignan he didn't do that well and their fans blamed him as an expensive import that didn't deliver and he probably isn't held in that high a regard in France. Some French team may take a punt on him, but more likely I think he'll be off to Japan, or maybe NZ like Freddy Burns.

Never will there be an opportunity to return on a discounted deal like this, but it won't be allowed.

At LI there are a few other IQ players but none would be starters, squad filler at best, in positions I don't think need more depth.

Looks like Paddy Jackson is going back to France - Pau and Brive mentioned

No one else at London Irish of any note who is Irish qualified.

Not trusting Petrie as far as I could throw him I would take much stock in what he says.

Al that is happening with Addison is he will train and see how it goes.
Remember he was originally back late October, then it was January and then it was end of April.
I'm not holding my breath

Id be far more worried about Henderson - Petrie says talks going well or to take it another way he hasn't signed.
My guess is he has been offered a one year CC but wants either the IRFU or Ulster to give him at least one more year.
This far from a done deal.

No rumours about Reffell and bizarre that Madigan not in the list of players leaving.
A bit of coaching with player registration retained as a break glass option perhaps.

Any word on Addison's contract? Pay as you play?
I think his family have refurbished and reopened a pub near Penrith which is where he's from. Wonder if he's planning for retirement?

He is training during the close season to see how it goes.
He does not have a contract for next year

It is of course true to say that of the 4 we have not heard about they do have contracts up to the end of June.

Maybe their futures are still in the balance

Henderson - does he get a CC? If its only one year I suspect he wants at least one year from Ulster after it
Madigan - pay as you play (as 10 backup) perhaps?, coaching position?
Addison - does he want a one year deal, is a pay as you pay the only offer on the table?
Reffell - does he want two years and only one on the table?

Speculation for sure but a contract not yet agreed is by the far the most rational reason we remain in the dark.

Thanks for the update Geoff, and you most probably right that contacts have yet to be finalised. My knee jerk reaction would be secure Henderson, and if that means being unable to pay the other 3 so be it. But I doubt it is that simple.

Obviously Ulster will fight tooth and claw to retain Hendo.......oh no wait, this is Ulster who don't fight for their player historically. Let's just say Ulster will want to retain Hendo for his 4 or 5 appearances each year. Hmmmmm, is he even worth fighting for for the little time he spends in an Ulster shirt? I'm not so sure.
Madigan has been criminally underused while Billy gets flogged and held together with string and cellotape. He's 34 but still a few years younger and as fit as Sexton so why not utilise his experience if only from the bench a lot more. It's not as if there's an abundance of talent. We don't know how good Flannery is, he's played a few games to is hardly up to speed.
Addison's return to fitness would be every xmas and birthday rolled into one. That being said I'd have ejected him a while ago from a purely business point of view. If Ulster's faith in him comes good it'll be a real tonic that's badly needed. Stupidly talented player but made of glass.
Reffell, please refer to comments re: Flannery.

You really think Ulster would use real cellotape? Far too expensive

carpet baboon wrote:You really think Ulster would use real cellotape? Far too expensive

Sorry, masking tape

We'll need to upgrade to cellotape now I've seen the Euro draw. We're screwed in a skewed URC format and now the Euro format has screwed us as well. Not going to be a good year unless the coaching and personnel improves dramatically which it won't.
Kitshoff and Ewers will wish they had an early get out clause, if they've been wise they will.

Life's a female canine and then you die. I'll bet Cardiff are equally disappointed that they don't get a chance of points against us. I've seen Ulster beat both Bath and Harlequins away (living in Kent means I don't get to home games, maybe just as well) so there is always hope, at least until kickoff time. it looks like we need to conserve our resources for the league, so missing out on ERC knockouts mightn't be a bad thing. There may be the sliver of a silver lining somewhere.

On Madigan, for me it's a no, at least as a player. He took a quick tap against Northampton at Franklins Gardens, with no support and us just needing to close out the game. His skills do not outweigh his occasionally disastrous decision making in my view. However perhaps he could mentor Flannery if the coaching team ever let him play.

Unclear wrote:Life's a female canine and then you die.  I'll bet Cardiff are equally disappointed that they don't get a chance of points against us.  I've seen Ulster beat both Bath and Harlequins away (living in Kent means I don't get to home games, maybe just as well) so there is always hope, at least until kickoff time.  it looks like we need to conserve our resources for the league, so missing out on ERC knockouts mightn't be a bad thing.  There may be the sliver of a silver lining somewhere.

On Madigan, for me it's a no, at least as a player.  He took a quick tap against Northampton at Franklins Gardens, with no support and us just needing to close out the game.  His skills do not outweigh his occasionally disastrous decision making in my view.  However perhaps he could mentor Flannery if the coaching team ever let him play.

I wish I shared your optimism Unclear.
The memories of beating Quins and Bath are firmly in the past. I'll never forget Andy Trimble's magnificent try at Bath or our dear Nevin Spence upending on his head while scoring. I suppose both those English sides had a very average season whereas we finished 2nd in our respective league so there's room for optimism there. We have the same coaching ticket and personnel as we had at the start of last season up until the capitulation in Dublin. If that version of Ulster with Kitshoff and Ewers, maybe even Addison added to the equation then who knows. How do they get back to that team? Can the summer break fix the problem? We'll find out soon enough.
Look what you did, you filled me with optimism. If it's false I'm blaming you

I'd rather be in Ulster's position than any of the Welsh teams.

To me the overall squad looks pretty good but they do have some weaknesses and I think the signings in Kitschoff and Ewers didn't make much sense looking from the outside.

For me I think they should be looking to transition Lowry to 10 now that he's had a couple of season playing at this level and is used to the pace. He has that little bit of X Factor about him and getting him more ball in attacking positions would be smart. Burns is a solid 10 but hardly that creative. Ulster have some very good backs. So for me I would have thought bringing in a quality full back would have made some sense.

And I think they needed to strengthen at lock. I'm not sure for what they pay Henderson he provides any real value to them. Ideally they should have brought in 2 in that position.

Kitschoff is a great player but Loosehead I didn't think was that much of a problem for Ulster. Tighthead was though partly because they lost Moore to injury. I thought Warwick and O'Sullivan did well enough for them.

I do think back row has been a problem though but Ewers isn't anywhere near the player he was 5 or 6 years ago. They did need a couple of ball carriers but for me they also lack a real natural 7.

So to summarize a tighthead prop, 2 locks, 2 ball carrying back rows, an openside and full back (8 players total) probably would have turned them into top 2 for me again.

But even without the above its hard to see if they don't finish top 4 which sides are going to be that much better to oust them.

Granted S.Africa sides have got another 25% salary increase so I am expecting some bigger name players to head back there this summer.

Next year I think will be a real interesting season again.

Pete330v2 wrote:
Look what you did, you filled me with optimism. If it's false I'm blaming you

I know my place Pete, it's always my fault

Mushroom I think the move of Lowry to 10 is out, his best chance of an Ireland squad place is at 15, and I think he will concentrate on that.  Whether he can make the role of Keenans back-up his own, is up for debate though.  His size does seem to be more of an issue at international level where any weaknesses are amplified.  I agree that the money spent on Kitshoff could have been better used elsewhere.  Not that he isn't a great prop, but the depth through the rest of the squad badly needs bolstering.

To be honest, at the moment finishing in the top 4 next season seems unlikely to me.  I need see just how much the belt tightening around the rest of the league affects the other teams, but I see us in the scrap for places 5-8. But at least we aren't Welsh

The situation in Wales is so worrying.  Everyone needs the Welsh national team and the regions (or any other entity wishing to play in a trans-national league or competition) to be strong and competing.  If half the energy put into the internal disputes over the years had been put into constructive change, I'm sure Wales would be seen as one of the contenders in the RWC, not an ongoing car crash.

Yeah to be fair though the reset was needed. Welsh Players salary expectations were getting out of hand. I've always maintained the purpose of the regions shouldn't be a retirement home. I've no issue with players like Webb heading off for one last paycheck in the sun.

The problem that occurred though is so much was spent on front line players they totally messed the development pathway up.

I'm actually fairly sure we will see more youngsters get chances which has been badly needed the last 3 years. I genuinely believe the young talent is here in Wales but the way we develop and accelerate them through into pro rugby is not good enough. With the right kind of coaching and chances to play in the URC that can be turned around. Granted it won't be a quick fix as it probably takes youngsters around 3 seasons to really judge them on their talent. First season tends to go well, second season is usually a hangover and in the 3rd you tend to see if they can maintain consistency needed at this level.

One of the issues I've had for a long time with the regional game is they kept far to many average players on and not picked a good time to move the older players on. Ideally if they did that they would have a better chance at keeping hold of upcoming and current internationals.

Ulster are better off than the Welsh teams but that's a low bar and the gap is narrowing.

We needed Kitshoff because we have lost Sutherland and only have two honest but unexceptional regional level LH's.
Moore and O'Toole are both better props than O'Sullivan and Warwick. In terms of quality LH was far worse
Ewers was a must have. Ulster have retained only three backrowers good enough for the first team (Timoney, Marcus Rea and McCann)and two squad fillers (Matthew Rea and Jones) - we are real short. Remember both Vermuelen and Murphy have gone and Sheridan will play most of his rugby at Lock.
The squad has been cut by 25% to 30% and only SH and Centre are well covered.
We will see a lot of kids playing next year.
Interesting to watch but defeats not seen this year will occur as a consequence


So to summarize a tighthead prop, 2 locks, 2 ball carrying back rows, an openside and full back (8 players total) probably would have turned them into top 2 for me again.

Sadly we have no magic money tree and the salary bill has been cut back sharply.
We have no money to bring more players in.

A much smaller squad and a number of players (majority?) have taken salary cuts.
I doubt the total salary next year is more than £5.5 million + Central Contract of which there may be none.

There are 3 Saffer sides with stronger squads than Ulster and 2 Irish sides.
We are about 6th/7th in terms of squad strength for the 23/24 URC

Oh I didn't realize Ulster had budget cuts as well. Thought all the Irish sides were still operating with the same levels of funding.

I'm guessing one of the drawbacks with the overseas limits is that it kind of increases the market value of Irish players by simple supply and demand.

And Irish player stock values couldn't get higher than they are currently purely based on how well they do at international and club level currently.

I don't mind seeing the next generation of players in the URC. It's good for the future health of the team. It's what I am counting on in Wales at the minute.

There is a limited amount of private investment in both Munster and Leinster.
Munster have a handful of Central Contracts and Leinster have shed loads of them.
Net effect is Munster have some help with salaries and Leinster have tons of it.

For Connacht and Ulster that luxury doesn't exist.

Henderson confirmed on a 2 year deal

Good to hear.

My guess is he said if its only one year I'll be off.
I also suspect Ulster told the IRFU we haven't got the money left in our provincial budget.

Hard nosed negotiating on his part and excellent for Ulster as its a Central Contract

Great to hear that Henderson is confirmed. He may not play many games for us but I see him as an important figurehead within the club. Probably means nothing, but it makes me happy, no scratch that, less unhappy.

Great business but now to keep him fit. He's more important to Ulster at the minute so fingers crossed for many appearances in white

JTA at pre season training with Ulster according to his Instagram.

Training with the squad until he heads off to WC with Samoa according to t'other forum. Should have hung on to him

I'm just chuffed Samoa are not in Wales World Cup Pool. Granted we have Fiji but at least their front 5 can be dominated. Going to be some very tough pool games coming up this year.

Ireland have a physical pool and I'll be honest France and New Zealand should coast their pool easily. South Africa & Ireland won't have that luxury. That could be a blessing in terms of being battle hardened by the Qtrs but could also turn out to be a bad thing. Player rotation will be key I think.

Agree, Fiji's front row is meh, the rest look pretty untouchable though. By contrast, Tonga and Samoa seem to have a better front 5. I'm glad we got Fiji up first, and then the minnows second. I don't envy Ireland's group, it looks extremely physical.

Pete330v2 wrote:JTA at pre season training with Ulster according to his Instagram.

Training with the squad until he heads off to WC with Samoa according to t'other forum. Should have hung on to him

Aw, he's not coming to Dragons then.

Munster to play Crusaders durning 6 nations, are Ulster ever going to get any of these games?

Kingshu wrote:Munster to play Crusaders durning 6 nations, are Ulster ever going to get any of these games?

No but Bristol are getting these games.

Not sure how Bristol swung that....Not entirely sure why Crusaders didn't take on the Champions Saracens instead. Bristol were dire last year and given the big names that left can't see it getting any better this year for them.

Maybe the Crusaders just wanted to make sure they get at least one win on the tour.

Remains to be seen how good Munster's and Bristol's lineups will be if the 6 Nations in on those weekends.

Guess that crusaders get paid a fee and however thinks they can make a profit bids. For Bristol and an owner with deep pockets maybe they are happy with a slight loss/break even to boost the teams profile, whereas Munster must believe they can sell out 45,000 in Páirc Uí Chaoimh.

For Ulster 18,000 in Ravenhill wouldn't generate enough, maybe when Casement park is rebuilt Ulster may get some of these games, but Munster getting SAXV, Ba Baas and Crusaders while no else else is getting anything is a bit much.

I see Michael McDonald away to Connacht. Is Shanners better than him?

The question is probably who is likely to want more to get gametime and/or command a bigger salary.

Realistically with Cooney signing a new deal and Doak there the other is going to be 3rd choice, a break glass in case of emergency type.  So McDonald may feel he has a better chance at Connacht or Ulster may want to offload the wage

Just hoping he doesn’t turn out to be the new Cooney… but reversing the clubs.

Didn’t think much of him when I seen him, but similar to Flannery he didn’t seem to have much opportunity.

McDonalds move to Connacht is a loan move, Declan Moore moved as loan as well.Both just one year loans, though most loans become permanent, but if Mcdonald does show up well with the extra gametime he may well be recalled, Moore I don't see coming back.