ULSTER RUGBY 2022/2023 - SEASON RUN IN

First topic message reminder :

Christ on a bike you lot are downbeat for a side that are currently in the top 4 of the league!!

That's shocking Geoff, I feel more than a little duped as I'm sure would a lot of Ulster fans who thought the opposite of the guy.

Just reading on twitter that we're linked to Quinn Roux for next season, a rumour I'd heard before, possibly on here. It would be a decent signing, still need another 10 though.

Agreed indeed shocking

The Quinn Roux rumour keeps bouncing around.
It would make sense in so far as Carter is leaving and Bradshaw-Reid looks like a no show.

One other rumour I've heard is Will Connors but no indication it is any more than a polite enquiry and
no indication that he is interested.
Personally wouldn't waste my breath on a player who has only started 4 games in three years if he is content watching rather than playing.

I dont believe we will get any more NIQ - Toomunga-Allen, Kitshoff and Ewers will be out full quota I think.

I have a question for you all, especially you Geoff.

Did John Cooney ever turn down any call ups to the Irish squad ?

P.S. Currently having an argument with a Leinster colleague

I find that very very hard to believe.

It makes no sense at all.

I think your friend is pulling your leg

In fact just noticed Sexton was on the bench so not a chance in hell


On another matter KOTH (who is usually, but not always right) says Roux not joining

geoff999rugby wrote:I find that very very hard to believe.

It makes no sense at all.

I think your friend is pulling your leg

In fact just noticed Sexton was on the bench so not a chance in hell


On another matter KOTH (who is usually, but not always right) says Roux not joining

Cheers Geoff, I knew I wasn't going completely mad.
I was just reading that about Roux, it's a shame, he'd have been a good fit and we'd have been a good fit for him as well.

If your friend said Cooney turned down a call up for Scotland at some stage

That I could quite easily believe

On Roux KOTH is not always right just most times

I see the Lyttle leaving rumour has resurfaced.

Just dont know why McFarland doesn't rate him - would be a huge loss.
He is a try scorer in a way McIlroy, for all his smart play, will never be.
For a small guy he has an excellent kicking range as well

Three changes for Ulster. Moxham ahead of McIlroy is a head scratcher as is Cooney on the bench.

Ulster: Lowry, Lyttle, Hume, Moore, Moxham, Burns, Doak; O'Sullivan, Stewart, Toomaga-Allen, O'Connor, Carter, Sheridan, Timoney, Vermeulen.

Replacements: Andrew, Sutherland, Warwick, Treadwell, Murphy, Cooney, Madigan, McIlroy

Cooney to be fair I think is a very good strategic observer of the game. I think he can sit on the sidelines, analyse and then come on and give the team what they need best.
I've enjoyed that our bench has been strong the last few weeks.
It also continues to give an element of trust to some guys that the coaches still believe in them, but also have a strong bench so we can rest players when needed whilst also perhaps adding to the quality.
Just a thought.

Another question I had in my head.

Does Jackson have any grandparents who were born anywhere other than Ireland?
And also... is he now eligible for England?

clivemcl wrote:Another question I had in my head.

Does Jackson have any grandparents who were born anywhere other than Ireland?
And also... is he now eligible for England?

I believe the family have ties to the Birmingham area. Not sure on anything else

Jackson will no more get international selection for England than Ireland. The Unions are far too scared of the deluded hashtag gang who refuse to read the word not when it's in front of the word guilty.

I also have a question in my head.

What has happened to Izzy and Rea the younger?
Izzy looked like a bit of a prospect and Marcus, the turnover king was looking like he'd be a regular. Have they both fallen out with Dan?

clivemcl wrote:Another question I had in my head.

Does Jackson have any grandparents who were born anywhere other than Ireland?
And also... is he now eligible for England?

You can't switch allegiances based on residency it would have to be through a family member style qualification. Borthwick is unlikely to select him given he's got Farrell and Ford as experienced and well capped options with the Smiths, Marcus and Fin, coming through as exciting young talents.

Ulster are into the last 16 in Europe, and we are 3rd in the URC.
We’ve won two games in a row and somehow… we are still sitting fairly well in both comps.

Yes, unlikely to proceed past Leinster, but going out in knockout stages to Leinster can never be thought of as failure.

Have we turned a corner?
I still can’t quite understand the piss poor patch we saw, and I’ve no idea who gets credit for the uptick in form…

But I’m a happy and hopeful Ulster fan again!

(For now!)

Was anyone watching the tv broadcast? What was the ref's reason for not sending off the Stormers player after their high hit v Lowry (i think), looked a definite red in stadium so was a bit confused when it was yellow

clivemcl wrote:Ulster are into the last 16 in Europe, and we are 3rd in the URC.
We’ve won two games in a row and somehow… we are still sitting fairly well in both comps.

Yes, unlikely to proceed past Leinster, but going out in knockout stages to Leinster can never be thought of as failure.

Have we turned a corner?
I still can’t quite understand the piss poor patch we saw, and I’ve no idea who gets credit for the uptick in form…

But I’m a happy and hopeful Ulster fan again!

(For now!)

Here's the thing that's been running rings around my head.

We were stuffing a fully loaded Leinster in Dublin, we were all feeling pretty good at that point. Then Leinster score just before half time and that 19 point lead became 12 which is nothing to a Leinster side that came out in the 2nd half and showed their pedigree. I'm sure that was a tough one to process for the entire squad but despite that woe things were still looking fine, they surely could bounce back couldn't they?
The Sale game was an anomaly given that the travel disruption meant player took to the pitch with little to no sleep and no time at all to get into game mode. That disaster would probably have compounded the low feeling in the camp and the fanbase were beginning to grumble. La Rochelle came next and there was a 2nd half performance regardless of what has been said about La Rochelle taking their foot off the gas. There lay a small chink of light and it became a full ray of light when we were beating Connacht at the sportsground by 22-8 with a couple of minutes left. There was a mass shut down for those minutes and it was only a missed conversion that retained the away win but failed to regain squad confidence in the closing out of games. Next came Munster and once again, Ulster, 14-8 up with nothing on the clock just have to hold Munster out, Munster win by a point. Another loss at the death and people are asking questions but why? Munster were resurgent after a dreadful start to the season and it's always a tough day at the office to beat them at home. Onwards and upwards you'd think, Benetton next who had been tough opponants for anyone travelling to Italy. Once again, Ulster with a point advantage and a couple of minutes on the clock lose to a late penalty and everyone is saying the season is in serious doubt. La Rochelle away next and everyone's talking cricket scores. An unlikely 3-0 lead on 80 minutes was looking like a very unlikely and badly needed away win but with the clock in the red O'Gara's men did the unthinkable. Well at least there was improvement and an added confidence that bled into the Sale game and they were shown what a good night's sleep does for an Ulster side. A decent win and through to the knockouts, all be it against Leinster. We'll be there regardless and with that good run out against the Stormers the squad goes into the break with hopefully, renewed confidence and a belief that we thought had gone completely at one stage.
Anyway, enough waffle, in short, hopefully the blip is over but there was good reason for the blip and they've showed character to extract themselves, hopefully, from it.

Was a good win for them last weekend. Signs they have turned over their shaky mid season blip. Still have some tough games ahead for sure but that Stormers win in my opinion will keep them in the top 4 which is where they deserve to be given how well they started the season.

neilthom7 wrote:Was anyone watching the tv broadcast? What was the ref's reason for not sending off the Stormers player after their high hit v Lowry (i think), looked a definite red in stadium so was a bit confused when it was yellow

Not a Red for me.
I thought Lowry ducked slightly but more importantly the arm came over the point where shoulder blade joins the arm and hit just below the neck and rod up around the neck.

Yellow was the correct decision

It was a decent win and some stand out performances (Toomunga-Allen, Sheridan and Moore).
Moore in the centre made some lovely off loads
Also good to see Hume and Lowry get some of their mojo back.

However Stormers were awful, their defense was a joke, and they looked like a team who had a good social the night before
Also little more than a second XV.
For me rank they alongside Ospreys and Zebre as one of the worst teams to visit Ravenhill this year.

So good to see a smile on some faces and great going into the break on a upbeat note.
Also, including the La Rochelle game, we have shown some real character in recent weeks.

However three away games on the bounce now which will test us and we still have a weak defense against better opposition

Some observations about players that I believe are correct.

Marcus Rea and McIlroy were put on the naughty step big time because of their woeful tackling at the end of the Connacht match
McCann also needs to up his game tackle wise, that is why Sheridan is playing and not him.
Sheridan looks the real deal
Izzy also on the naughty step because of a casual attitude to training
Cooney on the bench because he has not committed to next year
Lyttle leaving wont go away - it would be criminal not to keep him

Toomunga-Allen is a real character, a strong trainer and very popular in the squad - everyone wants him to stay
If the IRFU block it and say Milisinovich is IQ I will spit feathers - an utter disgrace if it occurs
Toomunga-Allen would block no one if he stays and we need a component third TH.
With O'Toole away with Ireland and Moore's injury concerns.
The chocolate tea pot doesn't cut it at any level - witness Warwick switching sides being preferred to selecting him

I would speculate this is why O'Sullivan status is unclear.
Milasinovich getting a contract is probably also up in the air

If Toomunga-Allen stays our props will be:
TH - Moore, O'Toole, Toomunga-Allen
LH - Kitshoff, Warwick, Reid

If Toomunga-Allen leaves our props will be:
TH - Moore, O'Toole, Warwick, Milasinovich
LH - Kitshoff, Warwick, O'Sullivan, Reid

I think Allen should be allowed stay, but the IRFU are in a tough spot at the minute regarding the prop situation. The lack of options outside of Porter and Furlong is alarming and every province has to step up in this area. There's rumours of Munster being blocked from signing foreign props, so don't be surprised if he's forced out.

You may well be right but it comes back to the who is he blocking question?
Same with Pienaar when the only player on the horizon was Marshall

News flash - Milasinovich and the words international standard is a truly laughable.
News flash - Marshall was not close to International standard

Stopping Toomunga-Allen would block no one making it at International.
Other than O'Toole there are no THs on the horizon

The irony of this is that in Reid, Saunderson and Wilson we do have some LH coming through
but we were allowed to sign a NIQ LH

geoff999rugby wrote:You may well be right but it comes back to the who is he blocking question?
Same with Pienaar when the only player on the horizon was Marshall

News flash - Milasinovich and the words international standard is a truly laughable.
News flash - Marshall was not close to International standard

Stopping Toomunga-Allen would block no one making it at International.
Other than O'Toole there are no THs on the horizon

The irony of this is that in Reid, Saunderson and Wilson we do have some LH coming through
but we were allowed to sign a NIQ LH

I don't disagree at all, just trying to come from the IRFU perspective. Remember we were burned with the Nathan Hines situation too. They probably look at it like, if you can't get a NIQ prop you've no choice but to produce your own. Our prop situation is incredibly worrying, Leinster and Ireland have relied a huge amount on Porter this season. There's a serious risk of burnout there.

geoff999rugby wrote:

neilthom7 wrote:Was anyone watching the tv broadcast? What was the ref's reason for not sending off the Stormers player after their high hit v Lowry (i think), looked a definite red in stadium so was a bit confused when it was yellow

Not a Red for me.
I thought Lowry ducked slightly but more importantly the arm came over the point where  shoulder blade joins the arm and hit just below the neck and rod up around the neck.

Yellow was the correct decision

Fair enough so, I was quite far away from screen so I didn't see that just the head, that explains it

Worth reposting

2023

LHP - Andrew Warwick,Callum Reid, Eric O'Sullivan., Rory Sutherland
Hooker – John Andrew
THP - Gareth Milasinovich, Jeffrey Toomunga-Allen
Lock - Sam Carter, Iain Henderson, Frank Bradshaw
Backrow - David McCann,Duane Vermeulen, Sean Reffell , Greg Jones, Jordie Murphy
SH - John Cooney, David Shanahan, Michael McDonald
10 - Jake Flannery, Ian Madigan
Centre - Luke Marshall, Angus Curtis
Back 3 Player - Rob Lyttle, Jacob Stockdale, Aaron Sexton,  Will Addison,Ben Moxham, Craig Gilroy. Shea O'Brien (development contract 22/23)

2024

Hooker - Declan Moore
THP - Tom O’Toole, Marty Moore
Backrow - Matthew Rea
10 – Billy Burns
Centre - James Hume

2025

Hooker - Rob Herring
Lock - Alan O'Connor
Backrow - Nick Timoney, Marcus Rea, David Ewers
Centre – Stuart McCloskey, Stewart Moore
Back 3 Player – Ethan McIlroy, Robert Baloucoune
10/15 - Michael Lowry

2026

Hooker - Tom Stewart
LHP - Kitshoff
Lock - Cormac Izuchukwu, Kieran Treadwell
SH – Nathan Doak
Centre - Jude Postlethwaite (development contract 22/23)

I think there is a lot of potential for a clear out this year.

Firstly to cover the TH situation - if Toomunga-Allen says I am convinced Miliasinovich is history, he may be history anyway, he should be.
O'Sullivan will probably be away if Toomunga-Allen stays, or stay if he doesn't

From the 2023 list, I have been told, and or guess the following:

Will get a Central contract
Ian Henderson

Will get a 1 or 2 year contract
Andrew Warwick
Callum Reid
John Andrew
David McCann
Sean Reffell
David Shanahan
Luke Marshall
Jacob Stockdale
Ben Moxham
Shea O'Brien (development contract 22/23)

May stay for a Year/May go
Greg Jones
John Cooney
Angus Curtis
Rob Lyttle
Aaron Sexton
Will Addison
Michael McDonald

Will leave/retire
Rory Sutherland
Sam Carter
Frank Bradshaw
Duane Vermeulen
Jordie Murphy
Jake Flannery
Ian Madigan
Craig Gilroy

In other news a rumour Declan Moore is off to Connacht

That is 18 players definitely or possibly not re signing.

Sheridan is the only player who is ready to make the jump from the Academy this year

Rumours keep floating around about McFarland to Leicester

Would be a big surprise to me but who knows

I never thought I'd see the day when Ulster were saying goodbye to Vermeulen, Sutherland and Madigan. All big names, all in one go.
It'd be very sad to see Cooney leave, another year would have been good but if he plays for Scotland then it leaves no choice IMO.
Dan to the Tigers? Well he did interview from what I've read on t'other forum so he must be interested. If he did interview and was interested then he'd be better off going as much as I'd hate to see it happen.

Pete330v2 wrote:I never thought I'd see the day when Ulster were saying goodbye to Vermeulen, Sutherland and Madigan. All big names, all in one go.

If you add Murphy, Cooney and Addison to that list have we ever lost so many players of that standard in one go ???

To be fair age has caught up with 3 of them, injuries has caught up with one of them and a fifth was ever short term and the replacement is non too shabby

Only Cooney comes down as a big loss , if it happens

I suspect MacDonald is in the same boat as O'Sullivan.
If Cooney stays he goes, if Cooney leaves he stays.

Would explain why it appears only Cooney and O'Sullivan have yet to be finalised.
Most of the other staying will be down to terms.
As mentioned Toomunga-Allen is out of our hands

I didn't add Cooney to the list, if I ignore it completely he'll stay. The same goes for Addison although his time is surely up.
I'll still try to ignore the fact they're probably leaving until they actually do.

geoff999rugby wrote:Rumours keep floating around about McFarland to Leicester

Would be a big surprise to me but who knows

Tigers have hired an agency to open discussions with various coaches meeting specific criteria to bring a shortlist back to the board to then interview for the position. The club has prior to Borthwick a shocking history of selecting head coaches so are seemingly leaving nothing to chance in trying to avoid the same issue again.

Other names connected have been Gregor Townsend (though he's denied speaking to Tigers) and Leon McDonald of the Auckland Blues. No idea how close to the end of the process the club are but whomever comes in will find a lot of talented but inexperienced coaches and will need to bring a lineout and defence coach with them (plus sort out the shocking state of Tigers attack game).

If he gets the job hope he take our defense coach

He is a useless waste of space

Yeah it's buy one get one free on Ulster coaches, buy 1 Ulster coach get Bell free of charge, it's a great deall.... for Ulster

We will throw in a TH as well, Milo comes with the package.

McFarland and Bell out
Davy Humps and Vern Cotter in as Director of rugby and Head Coach. Lure Payne back and get Soper back to concentrating on skills.

Seemples

I've a stinking cold at the moment so finding it hard to be positive about anything much apart from the next dose of Day Nurse. The Stormers game was positive in that 5 points were secured, but let's face it they weren't anywhere near full strength and further hampered by the injuries during the game. Ulster were at best ok. The handling early on was poor, the defence was poor, the attack lacked invention for significant periods, but the bonus point was secured.

Stewart Moore and Toomunga-Allen (?) were the stand outs, and Sheridan showed promise. Hume and Lowry showed some flashes or returning to form, which is really needed.

On the contract situation, what on earth is going to happen at fly-half if both Flannery and Madigan go, as seems likely. Only Burns and Lowry? That's not going to work. And with Flannery leaving after 1 season it's going to difficult to persuade other young guys to give the move a try.

On props are we really only to have Kitshoff/Warwick/Reid and Moore/O'Toole/Toomunga-Allen? An injury to any one of those 6 will make life very difficult, so hopefully there must be some academy prospects coming through from somewhere. Similarly at hooker where losing both Herring and Stewart to international call-ups (if Sheehan or Kelleher are injured) is not beyond belief.

Of the suggested "will they stay or will they go" above it would be a shame to lose Cooney but he has served very well during his time at Ulster and I could only wish him well. Addison had so much promise, but his injury profile makes me think he needs to look outside being a professional rugby player. Lyttle seems criminally undervalued, he may never be international class but he is a very dependable club player and reminds me a bit of Louis Ludik and should be kept. The rest, well meh seems a bit unfair to guys who I'm sure tried their best, but that's it.

On the coaches if Dan stays, then the level below need "refreshing" or some euphemism. McFarland has been a stabilising influence after some poor incumbents, but is that enough? On the other hand, who would take his place?

So definitely glass half empty and sorry from bringing the mood down but I'm off for some medication.

My word you're definately on the negative side of things. Get that super strong lemsip etc from across the border.

Yeah the stormers didn't field a full strength side but hey, on a positive spin, neither did we. We were far from the 1st XV and missing key players but I know what you mean. They were less than their 2nds but we still had to win and whilst the performance won't last in the memory banks for long ( apart from JTA's try) it's a step in the right direction. Hopefully.

The entire setup, after looking so settled and well run for so long. looks like falling into the realms of farce again. Dan's looking at other employment prospects, Jonny's a ballix, the squad looks all over the place and there's been more 'jobs for the boys'.

Bloody hell I'm a half empty person now as well. I think I'll have a lemsip

Sorry Pete

Unclear wrote:Sorry Pete

This time next year we'll be word beaters.
Hope the cold gets better for the weekend. Big Stu rippin it up.

I wonder would taking over an Irish province be one step closer to a future Ireland job for ROG?

Goodness... could Ulster fans even allow their mind to rule over their heart on that one?

I'm in between Pete and Unclear.

I do think our bad patch was in fact, very bad - but I do think our recent improvements are very reassuring.

My concern is - do we continue the season with more of the improvements, or do we get stunned by another spell of the bad.

And this has kinda always been Ulster's undoing. Regularly looking like a top class team and yet ... NEVER... for an entire season. Hence the shocking lack of silverware.

Cooney going would be a shame. Addison, at a time looked to be the best back we've had in a decade - if he returned, and to that standard, it would be phenomenal - but I think most people have written him off or forgotten him entirely. Serious amount of 'sick pay' has gone his way in his time at Ulster. Don't give him ny more of our money unless there is confidence in his physical robustness.

Id take ROG in a heartbeat, I would have no issue.

We have shown real heart in the last two games which is encouraging, however not convinced any coaching issues
have been addressed.

In La Rochelle it was biblical weather (otherwise known as a normal day in Galway )
and Stormers 2nd XV were crap

One thing I cannot work out is that given the player situations I outlined above I cannot see how we will avoid a
significantly smaller squad next year.
Sheridan apart I would be very surprised if anyone else gets a development contract

Regarding Fly Half I do wonder if the assessment has been made that if Cooney stays then Burns, Lowry, Cooney and Doak is enough to cover 10, keeping both McDonald and Shanahan as back up 9's.

If Cooney goes we would have to get someone in, no one coming through

In an idol moment I was thinking of the best NIQ team we could put out.
The main criteria were commitment to Ulster as well as ability.
As you can see a few self serving showboaters not selected.
Had a problem at LH and in the backrow so taken on Kitshoff and Ewers as trialists

Kitshoff, Sexton, Kempson
Harrison, Muller
Ewers, Williams, Wannenberg
Pienaer,  Lealiifano
Ludik, Steinmitz, Payne, Danielli
Terblanche

geoff999rugby wrote:In an idol moment I was thinking of the best NIQ team we could put out.
The main criteria were commitment to Ulster as well as ability.
As you can see a few self serving showboaters not selected.
Had a problem at LH and in the backrow so taken on Kitshoff and Ewers as trialists

Kitshoff, Sexton, Kempson
Harrison, Muller
Ewers, Williams, Wannenberg
Pienaer,  Lealiifano
Ludik, Steinmitz, Payne, Danielli
Terblanche

Your trialists have shown some promise, I hope they can measure up to their team mates

Indeed I have high hopes for them

The bottom line was players who put themselves on the line for the team
If the Triallist match the other team members they will be a credit to Ulster

geoff999rugby wrote:In an idol moment I was thinking of the best NIQ team we could put out.
The main criteria were commitment to Ulster as well as ability.
As you can see a few self serving showboaters not selected.
Had a problem at LH and in the backrow so taken on Kitshoff and Ewers as trialists

Kitshoff, Sexton, Kempson
Harrison, Muller
Ewers, Williams, Wannenberg
Pienaer,  Lealiifano
Ludik, Steinmitz, Payne, Danielli
Terblanche

Dont think you can have Ludik, as he was Irish Qualifed on residency for most of his time at Ulster, just didn't get capped. From 2017-2021 he was IQ, and didn't count as NIQ/E. Maybe replace him with Jimmy. Panye as well became IQ. But maybe if your just counting when they arrived they would have been NIQ

You are right I was going by NIQ at time of arrival.

Thinking of going down to the Leinster - Ulster game at Aviva with my boys. Is there normally an area for away supporters or anything?

geoff999rugby wrote:You are right I was going by NIQ at time of arrival.

If I didn't do that I would have to include Rob Dewey

He has to be, by far, the worst NIQ player we ever had
NIQ as in unable to qualify for Ireland in his time here

clivemcl wrote:Thinking of going down to the Leinster - Ulster game at Aviva with my boys. Is there normally an area for away supporters or anything?

Not really we tend to get a small number of tickets in various price brackets throughout the ground

Had a look there tonight and they seem to be mostly sitting Ulster fans in kind of the corners of the ground or in the upper tier
Was thinking of going but sadly work commitments for the the others mean I will be watching that one at home