2023 Season Thread

[Lowlandbrit]

First topic message reminder :

Mark Cavendish has ended up at Astana, Peter Sagan has said this will be his last season.

[dummy_half]

Not sure Pidcock will ever be a serious GC threat in a 3 week tour - fantastic all round rider, but a notch below the likes of Pogacar in the highest mountains and across multiple stages. I think he'll end up either as a rider competing for lower parts of the top 10 in GC or as a stage hunting specialist.

Probably the best mountain bike XC racer at the moment, but he only races that for a bit of fun (European champion, Olympic champion and rocks up at the start of occasional world cup races and wins them just because there's a gap in his road racing schedule), and quite handy in cyclo cross plus as a one day classics rider, so having a gap in the palmares as a major GC winner still makes him better than 99% of professional racing cyclists.

[mountain man]

He's still young though and if he concentrated solely on road then he definitely has potential. Issue for Ineos is Thomas too old now and highly unlikely to be able to compete with Pogacar and Vingegaard (who can!) and Bernal looks way off pace at moment.
I certainly wouldn't rule Pidcock out for future GC contender, can't see him this year matching the big two though.

[formerly known as Sam]

Pidcock is explosive enough and on the descents incredible. I think tactics are sometimes his problem. Misjudging his efforts and maybe hasn't got the stamina of some of the other guys.

Vingegaard really didn't have much on his Palmares until later in his career than Pidcock is now. 2021 was his break out year when he was 24. Pidcock has got a bit more time to get his road racing legs under him.

[Lowlandbrit]

Awful news from the tour of Switzerland where Gino Mäder has died after crashing in a descent yesterday.

[formerly known as Sam]

Horrible news. He was only 26.

[mountain man]

Interesting article in the Times yesterday about this and the issue of rider safety.

My take on it is on a road course of 1000s of miles there is no way race organisers can safeguard riders, it's just not feasible. Maybe on some descents at key corners more barriers/protection could be used but when you have a group descending at 60mph+ and not just getting down a mountain like 99% of us do but racing on the ragged edge unfortunately accidents will happen.
Riders are of course aware of risks, Pidock himself has said "I'm not daft, I know my limits" but if a rider eases off on a descent and loses 30 seconds that can be race over.

Rather like Isle of Man TT, accidents are going to happen. It's almost inevitable as things stand.

What is avoidable is team cars/spectators etc getting in way of riders. Far too often some idiot does something stupid which causes a crash. I don't think there is any other sport where the public can get so close to professional sportsmen/women and it is fantastic to see the riders going up say Alpe D'Huez with crowds all around but sometimes it gets too much. Then you factor in protesters, dopey people taking selfies etc.

[Azabache]

But just think of the cost-and logistics-of fencing or some form of policing those "1000s of miles". And where does one judge the danger points to be? They've tried to fence off key parts, usually at the ends of stages where manic sprinting takes place, notorious ascents (like Alpe h'Huez as you say) but what else to do? I don't think it's realistic to do anything on those hairy (and long) descents. Have you ever experienced that descent from the top of the Galibier down to Huez?

I think you're right to mention team cars (and what about those motor bikes)-there's possibly some work, including training, to be done there.

Is the "efficiency" of these disc brakes contributing to even hairier descending? I throw that in.

But at the end of the day do we want it excessively controlled, or put into closed stadiums? Long may its accessibility be celebrated, like the Isle of Man TT.

[mountain man]

That's exactly what I wrote, it's just not feasible to do.

As for discs, don't know. Are they giving riders a false sense of security?

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Ultimately, like motorsport, you can bring in any safety measure you like, at the end of the day if you crash at these speeds you're in the lap of lady luck - a horrible horrible tragedy, but just one that the sport can't really mitigate unless you basically alter the entire sport forever.

[dummy_half]

On Friday, Eurosport were showing the Tour of Slovenia. A tricky descent ridden down twice, and one particular corner had a couple of riders in the lead group crash over the outside drop-off the first time down, and then the stage leader do the same on the second time round (with one of his chasers having to slam his bike sideways to avoid the same fate). Fortunately, everyone walked away unharmed - could have been much worse, as the crashed riders landed in a grassy area of a field, but could easily have hit the concrete culvert that was present, or the horse that was in the field.

Obviously, riding a bike fast down hill is going to be risky, and there is only a certain amount of protection the riders can wear (I remember the death of Andre Kivilev leading to the compulsory wearing of helmets). Could helmets be improved? Possibly, in the same way cricket helmets were modified after the death of Phil Hughes to provide more protection around the base of the skull and upper neck. However, obviously you can't ride a pedal cycle in full leathers like the motorbike riders use (which have been hugely improved by the incorporation of internal air bags), so there are practical limits.

[mountain man]

All pros have top level gear anyway including helmets
As it happens I've just got a new one myself, with the MIPS system. Hoping never get to test it's effectiveness.

[dummy_half]

And of course we don't know what Mader's injuries were - from the little I've seen, it looks like he may have hit a large boulder after leaving the road, so it could have been injuries to his torso or spine, either of which are essentially unprotectable in cycling gear.

The best that cycling can do is minimise the risk of riders leaving the road, but even then there's limits.

[mountain man]

Exactly, whilst wearing a helmet is sensible the science is they only really help in low speed accidents. Some inc Chris Boardman not convinced they are worth wearing.

I always do, and Ive definitely been saved from head injury after a low speed off.

The pros have to wear them and I suspect most would choose to anyway but if you have a bad crash at speed it's other parts of body that suffer a lot as well.

[mountain man]

Froome out of TdF because of mechanical issues? Bizarre.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/65998408

[Lowlandbrit]

Not really sure what to make of post-injury Froome. Does he actually believe he can still compete, or is he just trying to justify his contract?

[mountain man]

Bit of both I suspect but at 38 his time has surely gone. Post crash he's a shadow of what he was previously.
I've always liked Froome, seems a really decent bloke and at his peak he was pretty unbeatable.

[formerly known as Sam]

And of course we don't know what Mader's injuries were - from the little I've seen, it looks like he may have hit a large boulder after leaving the road, so it could have been injuries to his torso or spine, either of which are essentially unprotectable in cycling gear.

The best that cycling can do is minimise the risk of riders leaving the road, but even then there's limits.

They mentioned he was found in the water and it was mentioned he had to be resuscitated.

Netting on the most dangerous corners is the best they can realistically do.

[formerly known as Sam]

Not really sure what to make of post-injury Froome. Does he actually believe he can still compete, or is he just trying to justify his contract?

He looked pretty good on Alp d'Huez last year. Didn't get the win but was at least at the sharp end. His best days are behind him but I'd have thought they'd have moved him into the road captain role and used him to help co-ordinate the team in the bunch.

[Azabache]

Strange reason-bit like the politician "spending more time with his family"!

Agree with Mountain Man-a decent bloke, always courteous, usually thought before he opened his mouth, terrific ambassador for the sport; incredible athlete with a rather weird riding style (that worked for him!) who had the essential killer touch.

His Palmarès are remarkable and it's rotten luck that that awful crash prevented (for ever?) his achieving a record-equalling 5th Tour.

I too admired his third in that horrible stage last year, but unfortunately time 'n' tide wait for no-one (though Thomas is making a good attempt to disprove this!).

I'd love him to prove us wrong and come back-a la Poulidor-and at least win a stage at the age of 39.

And-looking further ahead-he might prove to be a formidable directeur sportif.

[mountain man]

Currently working my way through the Netflix series Tour de France Unchained. Excellent and well worth a look. It covers the 2022 TdF from viewpoint of the teams with interviews etc.

[formerly known as Sam]

Currently working my way through the Netflix series Tour de France Unchained. Excellent and well worth a look. It covers the 2022 TdF from viewpoint of the teams with interviews etc.

It's a bit scant on the big picture of the tour presumably because Pogacar and UAE don't feature which is a crying shame. Vingegaard Vs Pogacar is the kind of rivalry they could have built up to easily sell a second season. It would have been nice if they'd explained some of the tactics for the unseasoned viewer.

I enjoyed it though. Particularly the Alpe d'Huez episode.

[Azabache]

It's pretty well done and emphasises the essential strong teamwork that will almost always be the difference between success or failure (Mr. Pogacar note what happened to you up the Granon!).

Being a French co-production I feared bias but it was fairly even handed in the in-depth coverage of three teams (TJV, Quick Step and Alpecin), showing the ambitions-realised or otherwise, the highs and lows, the agonies of the managers following in the team cars, their confidence-building sessions back at the hotel.

Plenty of other interviews and analyses (particularly of Thomas) make this a well rounded experience with much tension and drama. I don't think it's aimed at "unseasoned" viewers so the explanations of tactics seemed quite adequate to me.

[mountain man]

I'm really enjoying it. Currently on episode 4. I also watched the Wolfpack/Quick-Step one on Amazon and that was pretty good but only concentrated on the one team, at least this one interviews in depth several teams.

Edit : Binge watched rest of it last night, excellent. Hopefully another done for this year.

[mountain man]

Here's a link to route for this years TdF, I think stage 1 is the first stage hilliest for years if not ever(?).

Anyway, can't wait :

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/65843147

[formerly known as Sam]

It'll be interesting to see who's allowed to go for it on stage 1. Presumably none of the GC contenders but maybe some of the back up GC guys like Pidcock and van Aert. VDP and Alaphilippe also likely to go for it. Should be a good day of racing.

[Lowlandbrit]

Not just some new jerseys and team names for the race, the red numbers for the combativity prize are now a sort of tan colour (new sponsor there too).

[alfie]

Some finish to Stage One of Le Tour...

The brothers Yates first and second !

Reckon that's a first.

[Soul Requiem]

Some finish to Stage One of Le Tour...

The brothers Yates first and second !

Reckon that's a first.

I believe it's a first on the first stage but not overall.

[formerly known as Sam]

That was a fun stage. Unusual for first GC shots to be fired amongst the favourites on the first stage. Great for the Yates boys to be going toe to toe at the end and to finish one and two. Good stuff and UAE will be feeling good with their number 2 rider looking that strong, it's another shot fired at Jumbo.

Disappointed that the Ineos weren't able to really get amongst it at the end.

[mountain man]

Cracking 1st stage with a lot more to follow.
Was a tricky day, cycling this morning, listening to Test match and watching TdF when I could.
Too much going on!

[Lowlandbrit]

Mas and Carapaz both out already, the latter managed to finish the stage with a broken kneecap.

[formerly known as Sam]

Carapaz didn't look in good shape yesterday. I'm surprised the team encouraged him to finish the stage. Shame to see two big names go out on stage 1.

[mountain man]

Another lumpy day today on stage 2, I reckon Jumbo be looking for the stage with WVA. Could also be a route that suits Pidcock.

[mountain man]

Well I was close with prediction, Wout got 2nd.
Pogacar picked up some more bonus seconds, in a race of tiny margins it all adds up.

Sprintish stage today but a couple of Cat 3 climbs in there so maybe more a day for someone like Mads Pederen or Girmay who would be a very popular winner. I'd like to see Jasper Philipsen in mix.

[dummy_half]

THe last classified climb is just after the mid point of the stage and 90km from the finish, so this is 95% likely bunch sprint. The only difficulty might be the wind causing some echelons, although looking at the route they are mainly going a few km inland rather than following the coast, so the risk of a stiff sea breeze is lessened.

Powless in the break again, to dd to his early mountain points? Three third cat and one 4th cat in the first 100km.

[dummy_half]

A quick look ahead - tomorrow is a very easy stage, one 4th cat 30 km from the finish (and a very easy one at that), but stage 5 is quite serious, with an HC and a first cat climb, although with a decent and (relatively) flat final 7km. A day for Pidcock to attack perhaps?
Stages 6 and 9 with mountaintop finishes

An unusua and interesting race route overall - I think I'd like to see another ITT, but having the last racing stage (i.e. not the ride into Paris) in the Vosges / Jura could make the end of the race interesting if the GC remains close. Hard stages scattered throughout the race, although perhaps unfortunate given recent events that three include descents to or near the finish.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Be interesting to see how today's stage is rode - it's lumpy enough throughout that if it's hard, pure sprinters like Cav/Groenewegen won't make it...but would Intermarche want to ride all day to drop as many of those types for Girmay? Be a tough ask.

I think I will pop a pound or two on Sam Welsford. Looked good in the intermediate sprint, good shape, think he will make the final

[mountain man]

Today should be another good watch as the pure sprint stages are frankly a bit boring until last 3km.

Mountains are where it's at for me.

[dummy_half]

Olly
I think you are understimating the ability of the main sprinters to get over lumps and bumps, and really there isn't much in the last 90 km anyway. If this is too tough a route for a bunch sprint, there will only be two in the race (Bordeaux and Paris).

I like the little touch on the race numbers, where there is a numbereed medal for how many TdF stages each rider has won - Lafay's number now has a smart little 1 medal on it - a bit to go to match Cav's #34...

[formerly known as Sam]

Looks like the peleton are enjoying an easier day today. Powless seems to be the go EF option now and is after the polka dots otherwise everyone is waiting on the sprint finish.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

They do seem to be enjoying an easier day - so the sprinters should all make it. Going to be a fun finish

[dummy_half]

So Powless up the road for KoM points, and now Lfay up the road through the intermediate sprint to pick up some points in the green jersey contest. Wonder if he's going to contest the bunch sprint in an attempt to hang on to the jersey for another day - actually picked up 15 points just now, so widened the gap - will be tied on points with Philipsen if the latter wins the stage and Lafay takes no points, but otherwise has a good chance of still being in green tomorrow (Van Aert could nick the jersey with a stage win).

Powless doing his job of hoovering up the KoM points. One more climb in about 15 km and then job done for the day, as the two breakaway riders are only at 2 minutes.

[dummy_half]

There is one thing I'd forgotten - Pogacar is in the white jersey for best young rider. I keep forgetting that he's still only 24. Might be a contender when he matures a bit...

[mountain man]

Powless got the KOM points today and now he'll let Pichon have the days combative award.
Bit odd place where Van Aert stopped to have his shoes sprayed.

Powless loving it, he's celebrating with crowd as he goes over top of every climb.

[dummy_half]

Pichon caught with about 35 km to go. Sprinters teams will now look to control the race right to the finish.

[mountain man]

Tour really gets going today, first of the super catagory climbs. I reckon UAE be looking to put time into Vingegaard, it's question of how Jumbo Visma react.

Should be a cracking day.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Tour really gets going today, first of the super catagory climbs. I reckon UAE be looking to put time into Vingegaard, it's question of how Jumbo Visma react.

Should be a cracking day.

Going to be tough to get big time gaps though, with the main climb during the middle of the stage and final one cresting with what, 20-25km to go? Reckon we might see a stalemate between the top contenders, but those who have bad legs/not in form might struggle.

[mountain man]

True, maybe tomorrow with a massive day of climbs but there are bonus seconds to be had on last climb today.

[Lowlandbrit]

Vingegaard strikes first then...

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

If Pogacar is struggling on a stage like that then this might be over already

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