2023 Season Thread

by Lowlandbrit Fri Jan 27, 2023 3:48 pm

First topic message reminder :

Mark Cavendish has ended up at Astana, Peter Sagan has said this will be his last season.

by mountain man Wed Jul 05, 2023 5:23 pm

What a stage. Couldn't believe they let Hindley get 4 minutes gap before final climb. Vingegaard did superbly to reduce gap and put time into Pogacar but mistake by UAE and Jumbo Visma as Hindley real GC threat
Didn't see Pogacar failing to respond so early in tour.
Tomorrow be absolutely massive

by formerly known as Sam Wed Jul 05, 2023 7:27 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:If Pogacar is struggling on a stage like that then this might be over already

You can't win a Tour inside the first two weeks. Just ask Simon Yates.

Impressive display of power from Jonas. All the talk his team was under pressure, what an emphatic rebuttal. Brilliant racing.

I can't see Hindley threatening the top 2 but loved the fact he went for it and put himself in the discussion. So much attacking cycling so far encore tomorrow please.

by Azabache Wed Jul 05, 2023 10:25 pm

Crazy time gaps already in a Tour that has dumped convention by having such tough mountain stages so early on. The Marie Blanque is a horror; tomorrow another one in the Tourmalet!

There's a loooong way to go as "...Sam" points out but the inevitable questions forming are: 1-is this a repeat of last year where Pogacar was exposed largely due to a deficient team; 2-is Vingegaard unbeatable (and largely due to such a great team-look at what Van Aert did!); 3-are we blind to the rise of another for the long haul (Hindley...Gall...who else)?

Yates maybe is not yet out of it; some other names already seem to be.

by formerly known as Sam Thu Jul 06, 2023 7:03 am

I do wonder if the mind games that UAE were playing have come back to bite them a little. They did a lot of riding on the front early and seemingly walked into the big right hook that Jumbo delivered yesterday. I can only imagine that Jumbo will be looking at a repeat today.

Hindley is now in an interesting position whereby he won't be let go again. He got away because Pogacar and Vingegaard were watching each other. If they start that again in this stage will we see others about the bottom end of the top 10 downwards try to get up the road and seek glory? That must be on the mind of Ineos with a couple of their guys.

by mountain man Thu Jul 06, 2023 8:12 am

UAE arguably have a stronger team than last year. The mistake both they and Jumbo Visma made was letting Hindley get such a time gap before the Marie Blanche, it was 4 minutes which to allow a GT winner and obvious contender for GC that margin was really surprising.

As for Pogacar, can only think his form isn't good enough after recovering from broken wrist as he just couldn't respond once Vingegaard attacked and last year it was he doing such attacks.

A lot picked Hindley as on 3rd step of podium as 1-2 was almost predetermined. Might be some rethinking.
However, Bora don't have fire power in team to match UAE and Jumbo so providing those 2 don't let Hindley get away again and surely now they won't I can't see him winning overall.

Today be another awesome day and even harder.

by mountain man Thu Jul 06, 2023 4:23 pm

Wow. What a stage. Van Aert just awesome and Pogacar back on form with win. Vingegaard takes yellow.
Tour well and truly ignited.
Given how well Pogacar responded after yesterday that was incredible. Jumbo Visma invested so much into today and will be disappointed to have lost some of Vingegaard lead over Pogacar.

by Soul Requiem Thu Jul 06, 2023 4:28 pm

I might one day shake the thought of Floyd Landis but today isn't one of them unfortunately.

by formerly known as Sam Thu Jul 06, 2023 4:35 pm

mountain man wrote:Wow. What a stage. Van Aert just awesome and Pogacar back on form with win. Vingegaard takes yellow.
Tour well and truly ignited.
Given how well Pogacar responded after yesterday that was incredible. Jumbo Visma invested so much into today and will be disappointed to have lost some of Vingegaard lead over Pogacar.

Pagacar went back to the tactics that saw him win his first yellow jersey. Cruising behind his rival and then unleashing those ruthless attacks. Vingegaard went hard today and just didn't quite have it. Very much race on.

by dummy_half Fri Jul 07, 2023 10:07 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
mountain man wrote:Wow. What a stage. Van Aert just awesome and Pogacar back on form with win. Vingegaard takes yellow.
Tour well and truly ignited.
Given how well Pogacar responded after yesterday that was incredible. Jumbo Visma invested so much into today and will be disappointed to have lost some of Vingegaard lead over Pogacar.

Pagacar went back to the tactics that saw him win his first yellow jersey. Cruising behind his rival and then unleashing those ruthless attacks. Vingegaard went hard today and just didn't quite have it. Very much race on.

A long race like this is about managing resources. Vingegaard possibly went a bit deeper on Wednesday than Pogacar, adn didn't recover quite so well, but overall the net gain for him is about 30 seconds over the two days, so probably good overall.
Easy day today, with a first finish in Bordeaux for over a decade. Used to be a very regular stage finish and the second most prestigious sprint stage behind Paris. Expect a slow day with a small break (probably 3 or 4 at most) going early, and chased down in the last 15 km before the big sprint. The traditional Bordeaux finish was a big open road, so should be a fairly 'pure' sprint in being a drag race rather than about positioning - hopefully it avouids the stupid crashes from the other day on the dace circuit (where of course they got through the bit everyone worried about cleanly, but crashed in the fight for positions in the last km)

by mountain man Fri Jul 07, 2023 10:23 am

At finish yesterday Vingegaard looked utterly spent. Obviously he and Pogacar were full gas last couple km, especially when Pog attacked but Vingegaard went so deep he looked pale at finish. It took more out of him than Pog both physically and mentally it looked.
However, comparative easy days today and tomorrow so time to recover.
Sunday next big stage with the Puy de Dome.

It'll be very interesting to see how Jumbo defend the jersey as seemingly Pog won't be attacking as he was last year but conserving energy until he knows he can take time.

by dummy_half Fri Jul 07, 2023 1:11 pm

Next couple of days are about recovery for the GC contenders - tomorrow is listed as a 'hilly' day, but even that is a bit over-stated; could be a day for the sprinters or for a classics type rider (MvdP could be a good call).
Puy du Dome I don't think has been used much over the last few years, but looking at it I think I could climb the first 9 km (mostly averages about 7%, with a couple of easier pitches), but the upper 4km is consistently above 11% gradient, so is a tough climb. It's really just a single climb day though, so it's another day you can lose the Tour, but not really one you can win it on.

by mountain man Fri Jul 07, 2023 8:21 pm

Phillipsen again. Another brilliant lead out by MVP although looked like he went a bit early.
Jasper has the legs on everyone

by Lowlandbrit Sat Jul 08, 2023 2:50 pm

Looks like that'll be it for Cavendish. Sad way for it to end if it is.

by mountain man Sat Jul 08, 2023 2:59 pm

There's always Paris

Edit: been out riding so just checked and saw he's abandoned

by alfie Sat Jul 08, 2023 3:11 pm

Horrible luck for Cavendish. So close yesterday and now knocked out of the race...not the way a champion like him should go out. Sad

by formerly known as Sam Sat Jul 08, 2023 4:25 pm

No luck for Cav at all this tour. Got to feel for the guy.

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Sat Jul 08, 2023 10:38 pm

Absolutely gutted to return home and read this - no way for such a great champion to go out. Brutal

by mountain man Sun Jul 09, 2023 10:58 am

Today another epic stage coming up. Lumpy but only 2 x cat 4 and a cat 3 before final HC climb of Puy de Dome so I can see a breakway making a real go of it. Powless be looking to add to KOM points and maybe Pidcock might fancy getting into break as INEOS are only really in contention for stage wins now.

Assuming all things being equal, no-one else will rival Vingegaard and Pogacar on final climb so tactics be crucial. How will they deploy Van Aert be interesting, whether he'll go up road again with view to dropping back to help Jonas but even Wout can't cope at highest gradients.

Should be epic.

by formerly known as Sam Sun Jul 09, 2023 8:07 pm

Great stage. Felt for Jorgenson but Woods finished brilliantly. Pogacar taking more seconds out of Vingegaard who again was unable to go with him much rode well and made sure losses were minor.

Pidcock and Simon Yates looked strong but couldn't fully break Hindley so as to advance their claims towards the podium more noticeably. Three Brits from three different teams sitting fifth, sixth and seventh is pretty good going into the first rest day.

by mountain man Mon Jul 10, 2023 8:50 am

Rest day today then back into another pretty lumpy although not mountainous stage. A day for a breakaway.

I'm intrigued by how Jumbo Visma going to ride rest of Tour, so far UAE have played it perfectly and Pogacar not going on multiple attacks like last year but sitting on and only going when he can sustain effort to line. Twice now he's had the legs on Vingegaard and yesterday it looked as though Jonas knew he couldn't stay with him so tempered effort so as not to blow up and lose more time.
I wonder if they might try a stage where they don't push pace at all but let the other GC teams do the work. There is the risk though of losing yellow doing that. I suspect some long hard planning sessions today.

Tom Pidcock had a good day, be nice to see him or Fred Wright grab a win. Tomorrow could be an opportunity. I also think Powless be in break ensuring he increases his lead in polka dot jersey.

So far a great tour.

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Mon Jul 10, 2023 9:42 am

Definitely think UAE will be the happier of the two teams at this point - although I would note that Jumbo seem to have the far superior domestiques, with only really Adam Yates able to be with Pogacar in the true high mountains (and even he was dropped by Kuss yesterday).

Not sure exactly how Jumbo could use Kuss and Kelderman to their advantage, but they should be looking too.

by mountain man Mon Jul 10, 2023 10:05 am

Jumbo are using Kuss and Kelderman but so is Pogacar, when Jumbo set pace he is sitting on so if UAE domestiques can't keep with pace he just uses Jumbo Visma. Sepp Kuss is the mountain domestique for Vingegaard and he's been going as far as he can but ultimately last few kms it's down to the leaders and so far Pogacar looks stronger. That's why I'm wondering if JV might alter tactics as so far what they're doing isn't breaking UAE/Pogacar.

by Azabache Mon Jul 10, 2023 11:58 pm

Cav-brutal, upsetting. But the show goes on. I was in France and the French TV gave a lot a coverage and were very sympathetic.

I admire Pogacar and he at least seems (or pretends) to be enjoying it, unlike the humourless Jumbo Visma. (I like your joke about Kuss being Pogacar's mountain domestique!).

The talk in France amongst the Brits was that Tom might have a go on next Saturday's stage with its frightening descents....

by mountain man Wed Jul 12, 2023 4:53 pm

Philipsen AGAIN.

He is looking unbeatable in a sprint and today he didn't have MVP as a lead out.

Back to the hills tomorrow. So far been a superb tour.

by formerly known as Sam Wed Jul 12, 2023 6:52 pm

mountain man wrote:Jumbo are using Kuss and Kelderman but so is Pogacar, when Jumbo set pace he is sitting on so if UAE domestiques can't keep with pace he just uses Jumbo Visma. Sepp Kuss is the mountain domestique for Vingegaard and he's been going as far as he can but ultimately last few kms it's down to the leaders and so far Pogacar looks stronger. That's why I'm wondering if JV might alter tactics as so far what they're doing isn't breaking UAE/Pogacar.

That was his main tactic for his first tour win to be fair.

Jasper Disaster might have to be rebadged as Jasper the Master if he keeps up this dominant display in the sprints.

by mountain man Fri Jul 14, 2023 8:59 am

Another good stage yesterday and some interesting attacks but today it's back to the mountains and GC battle.
I feel for the riders though as it's going to be baking hot. Just riding those climbs be hard enough but racing them and in 35C+ temperatures.

by dummy_half Fri Jul 14, 2023 10:06 am

So another day where it's lumpy earlier and then one tough climb at the finish. The Grand Colombier climb is probably a bit easier than the beast that is the Puy du Dome, probably a bit steeper at the bottom but less severe at the top. Again, the sort of stage where you could lose the Tour but are unlikely to win it. I's expect time gaps between Pogacar and Vingegaard to be in the seconds rather than minutes, although given past form they are likley to put maybe a minute into those behind ofn the GC.

I suspect it will play out a bit like the Puy du Dome stage, of a break going away, getting a good gap and holding on for the stage win, with the GC contenders only really attacking on the last few km of the climb. Stage win will be another Michael Woods type of second rank climber who is outside GC contention and whose team can give them a free pass for the day. Wonder if Ineos might try to get Bernal or Castroviejo up the road - they have little to show so far beyond some 'places of honour' in the GC.

Tomorrow on the other hand is brutal - 3rd cat to start, two 'easy' first cat climbs, then a tough first cat and the HC Joux Plane, with the stage finishing after the descent where (for those with long memories) Stephen Roche beat Delgardo in 87.

by mountain man Fri Jul 14, 2023 10:30 am

Yep, don't think Pogacar or Vingegaard focus be on stage win it's all about time gap in GC.

by formerly known as Sam Fri Jul 14, 2023 1:21 pm

Getting someone up the road should be key for Ineos. They could really do with being able to bridge one or both of their GC hopes over to a support rider as they need to break Hindley or at least take more time out of him. If they are going to play the GC game then third place has to be the goal.

It'll be another dining dong battle between the big boys up front. Maybe Jumbo will get Kuss to save a little bit in the tank though so that if Vingegaard struggles again there's some cavalry that can ride to the rescue.

by dummy_half Fri Jul 14, 2023 2:04 pm

50km into the stage and a break of 20 a mnute and a half in front of the main field. No one with any GC aspirations in the break, but UAE keeping the bunch flying along at 50 km/h - not sure why they aren't just letting this one go away and saving some energy for later.

by mountain man Fri Jul 14, 2023 4:26 pm

Great win for Kiawotski and patience from Pogacar to attack at end which worked well. With 4 sec bonus and time gap the lead down to 9 seconds now. Jumbo Visma need to do something next two stages or Pogacar be in yellow.

by dummy_half Fri Jul 14, 2023 4:36 pm

Well, the peloton never gave the break a big lead, topped out at about 3:30.
Kwiatkowski attacked from the break on the climb and opened up a gap of 30 seconds on the next best of the break-aways, and held on all the way to the line.
A relatively big GC group was still together 1km from the finsh, then Pogacar launched his attack - Vingegaard followed but as with Puy du Dome the elastic stretched - they were going so fast that they mopped up all the break away riders bar one, so Pog picked up 4 seconds bonus for third at the line and nicked 4 seconds from Vingegaard.
Pidcock almost managed to follow the attack, and was dragged clear of the group - only a couple of seconds gained on HIndley, about 15 on the Yates twins and 40 seconds on Pello Bilbao - I don't think there are any position changes on GC, but it's certainly tight from 4th to 8th, with Hindey's 3rd position still definitely in play.

by mountain man Fri Jul 14, 2023 5:01 pm

Millar was surprised UAE didn't try and close Kwiatowski down, they were setting pace on peloton but it wasn't that high until last few kms. Looks like plan was just get Pogacar near enough to finish that he could attack Vingegaard as he knew he can always out sprint him. The bonus seconds were exactly that.
As for GC, Sepp Kuss back in top 10 and Pinot out I believe.

That's probably going to be UAE tactics from now on, keep it close until end of stage then Pog outsprints to gain time.

Hence I think Jumbo Visma needs to try something different as otherwise Pogacar will win overall.

by formerly known as Sam Fri Jul 14, 2023 9:40 pm

Jumbo need to isolate Pogacar earlier on the climbs so they can try and ride the sprint out of him. Vingegaard is great on the long climbs but Pogacar is great at riding the group until he's ready.

by Azabache Fri Jul 14, 2023 10:02 pm

Fascinating and exciting-I'm going to watch the live coverage tomorrow to see how "easily" the pros go up those climbs that us hacks struggled at last Sunday in the Etape du Tour!

Barring accidents, unforeseen incidents and sudden collapses, there are still more nasty, hilly stages after tomorrow where-in theory-Pogacar should whittle away at Vingegaard; and don't forget the small matter of the short TT....

Theory's great isn't it! Let's see....

by mountain man Sat Jul 15, 2023 7:41 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:Jumbo need to isolate Pogacar earlier on the climbs so they can try and ride the sprint out of him. Vingegaard is great on the long climbs but Pogacar is great at riding the group until he's ready.

Yes that could well work but of course a risk. Go too early and risk blowing up and losing a ton of time. I guess it'll depend upon how good team feel on day. Jumbo though have to try something as current tactics playing to Pogacar strengths.

by Lowlandbrit Sat Jul 15, 2023 8:37 am

Away from the GC, Caleb Ewan abandoned and his team are none too pleased about it.

by mountain man Sat Jul 15, 2023 8:55 am

Yes I saw that yesterday, before start of Colombier. They reckoned in comms it was just fatigue rather than a specific illness.

by formerly known as Sam Sat Jul 15, 2023 2:03 pm

Sounds like he'd been struggling with a near miss on cut off in a previous stage. I get why the team wanted him to stay on as he's a big name for them and they've obviously taken a lead out team with him in mind but doesn't sound like he was up to it and hasn't really been that close to Phillipsen.

by mountain man Sat Jul 15, 2023 3:11 pm

Jumbo Visma putting hammer down now. Must be plan to ride legs out of UAE and Pogacar before end of stage. Old SKY tactic.

by mountain man Sat Jul 15, 2023 5:46 pm

Wow, what a stage. Pogacar attack foiled by camera motorbike and then Vingegaard takes bonus seconds on climb.

Brilliant win by Rodriguez, two stages in a row for INEOS so that's made a difference to them as a team. Pidock suffering on the climb though, brutal pace set by Jumbo Visma.

Vingegaard increases lead by a whole second to 10.

Another epic day tomorrow!

by formerly known as Sam Sat Jul 15, 2023 9:02 pm

What were these camera bikes doing. Idiots. They are supposed to be much further up the road than that. I don't know if it was the same muppets but other bikes got in the way of Rodriguez as he rejoined the front two as well. How hard is it to pull to the side and get out of the way of the riders, I appreciate with the fans lining the road not that easy but they should have been able to manage it.

Another great stage with the two heavyweights trading blows. Good to see some of the other riders able to live with them this time.

by Azabache Sat Jul 15, 2023 11:02 pm

News just read-each fined 500 francs and excluded....for 1 stage!

by Lowlandbrit Sun Jul 16, 2023 12:08 pm

It's probably more difficult than I think, but I'd expected someone to have found a way to replace the motorbikes with drones by now.

by mountain man Sun Jul 16, 2023 12:38 pm

Well the footage is so good from bikes as at rider height. Drones by nature are above and if they were as close as the motorbikes would need to be ultra reliable as one hitting rider be bad. Just need the motorbikes to be more aware but of course the crowd on climbs also affect the motorbikes.
Plus of course limited battery life on drones so given remote locations during tour having the logistics support for them be a challenge. Could be done I suppose but for now I think camera bikes still be key.

by mountain man Sun Jul 16, 2023 1:39 pm

FFS another rider brought down by a spectator. Some utter tw@t with a phone trying to take a photo. Van Hooydonck of Jumbo Visma took a really nasty fall. Back riding but looks beat up. This needs to be sorted.

by formerly known as Sam Sun Jul 16, 2023 2:06 pm

The bikes are fine they just need to observe a 10m distance from the bikes when in front. Modern cameras are more than good enough to provide good coverage from that distance.

Perhaps some rear facing cameras on the bikes so that the operators can stay facing forward and still see the proximity of the riders behind them might be beneficial.

by formerly known as Sam Sun Jul 16, 2023 9:14 pm

Great day of racing again. Pogacar Vs Vingegaard continues to be a great battle. The TT will be fascinating.

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Mon Jul 17, 2023 7:40 am

mountain man wrote:FFS another rider brought down by a spectator. Some utter tw@t with a phone trying to take a photo. Van Hooydonck of Jumbo Visma took a really nasty fall. Back riding but looks beat up. This needs to be sorted.

Awful - how people cannot be more respectful of the cyclists and just stay out of the bloody road rather than trying to get a "selfie" for 15 likes on social media is beyond me. I also see video emerged of the issue with fans the previous day (and probably why the motorbikes were being held up/struggled to get out the way for Pogacar) was because a group of fans on that section were stopping the cars/bikes coming through to jump on them etc...

Real shame, cos at some point the race organisers will just do something draconian to protect the riders, which will effect all fans

by mountain man Mon Jul 17, 2023 8:57 am

You would hope in this day and age of social media and coverage of event that news of crash and the reason will get through to fans for rest of tour and they will refrain from doing stupid things but I'm not holding my breath.
It was somewhat ironic Pogacar and Vingegaard were asked about spectator interference before start of stage!

As for race, I thought Pogacar looked tired at end and he couldn't gap Vingegaard like he did previously. I was wondering whether Jonas might even counter attack once he caught him but I guess he was at limit and the risk of blowing up.

A remarkable tour and my fear is if something should happen to one of the two then that's it, TdF over for 2023 as winner is unquestionably one of those two. We all knew that before start but they are so close it's incredible. The big question is who will get third. Had to feel sorry for Wout Poels as his win was almost forgotten such was focus on Pogacar and Vingegaard.

As Sam says, TT will be interesting as that's likely to be one stage where a reasonable time advantage could be gained.

At least it's a rest day so I can get out on bike instead of sitting on sofa all day...

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