2023 Season Thread

[Lowlandbrit]

First topic message reminder :

Mark Cavendish has ended up at Astana, Peter Sagan has said this will be his last season.

[mountain man]

Utterly magnificent TT by Vingegaard. Just blitzed Pogacar by 1 minute 38 seconds!
I'd have liked Van Aert to have won as he deserves stage but Jonas just unbelievable

I do think commentators a bit premature saying that's won him the Tour as tomorrow is a horrific day in mountains but he's increased lead now to 1:48. A big gap.

[Lowlandbrit]

He's been nibbling away, and the first big blow seemed to have taken something out of Vingegaard the next day, but it's hard to imagine that gap getting overturned on the evidence so far.

[mountain man]

I also thought Pogacar had the desperate look of Roglic at end. He looked beaten through the last km
However, race not over until Paris
Personally I hope Vingegaard wins but he hasn't yet

[formerly known as Sam]

Jonas was incredible. Descended like a demon. He's put himself in the best position to win the tour. We've not seen Pogacar take big time on Vingegaard this tour, he's generally nibbled away but there's just no way he can do that now.

[No name Bertie]

Before todays TT some were saying that tomorrow's stage was more likely to be won by Jumbo Visma - Vingegaard.   However now it is up to UAE - Pogacar to respond to today's significant set back to their Tour Win chances.  Many said that todays TT could be decisive for this years Tour de France and it seems it has been.

[Azabache]

Scandinavian efficiency and dourness prevail! With the underlying team misery that's featured throughout so far. Let's hope for a bit of charisma and joy or else the next four days are in danger of becoming boring-shades of US Postal.

Though I'm not advocating a Landis-like performance to liven things up.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

That performance yesterday not a little bit suspicious?
Pogacar’s beaten the entire field (as expected) so not a bad day for him, and yet Vingegaard has almost caught him on the road? Climbed faster than him on the climb on a TT bike?

Feels a little hard to believe that over a short TT to me

[formerly known as Sam]

That performance yesterday not a little bit suspicious?
Pogacar’s beaten the entire field (as expected) so not a bad day for him, and yet Vingegaard has almost caught him on the road? Climbed faster than him on the climb on a TT bike?

Feels a little hard to believe that over a short TT to me

The two most protected riders in the peleton who've shown they are the best at weathering the rigours of a three week tour the best on what's most likely the two most pimped TT bikes in existence destroy the field can't be suspicious. That and a lot of the guys in the TT are conserving some of their energy.

Vingegaard clearly took a lot more risks than Pogacar and rode it to the real edge of the road. He reaped the rewards on the day, had he got it wrong then it was his tour over.

I'm interested to see if Vingegaard has it in the mountains today. Did he leave too much out on the road yesterday?

[mountain man]

That performance yesterday not a little bit suspicious?
Pogacar’s beaten the entire field (as expected) so not a bad day for him, and yet Vingegaard has almost caught him on the road? Climbed faster than him on the climb on a TT bike?

Feels a little hard to believe that over a short TT to me

Sorry but I find these unfounded suspicions a bit annoying. Vingegaard gets stronger in final week as he did last year, Pogacar arguably weakens or at least hasn't improved.

Unless there is proof of wrong doing the riders deserve respect of being clean. I absolutely abhor cheating of any kind so believe me if any are found guilty of doping etc I will be first to condemn. Until then we should marvel at achievement.
Pogacar lost 13 seconds due to bike change, plus he looked ragged at end. Vingegaard kept form throughout.

If Vingegaard blows up today (and someone will as 5400m of climbing!) Pogacar could win by a whole lot more than 1:38. Race not over yet.

[Soul Requiem]

That performance yesterday not a little bit suspicious?
Pogacar’s beaten the entire field (as expected) so not a bad day for him, and yet Vingegaard has almost caught him on the road? Climbed faster than him on the climb on a TT bike?

Feels a little hard to believe that over a short TT to me

Pogacars in 2020 comes to mind or even earlier in this tour when he was broken but bounced back almost immediately.

[TAFKA The Oracle]

That performance yesterday not a little bit suspicious?
Pogacar’s beaten the entire field (as expected) so not a bad day for him, and yet Vingegaard has almost caught him on the road? Climbed faster than him on the climb on a TT bike?

Feels a little hard to believe that over a short TT to me

I was suspicious at first when I looked at the news report and saw the time difference. But now I’ve seen the highlights I’m much less suspicious. Vingegaard was very aggressive on this ride and is super aero to boot. He attacked the corners, pedalled hard on the downhills, etc. Whereas Pogacar didn’t seem to put as much in as Vingegaard and was visibly coasting on some sections (in relative terms, of course). Vingegaard didn’t change bike either, which will always incur a bit of a time penalty when you consider decelerating, stopping, switching bike, getting back on, up to speed, etc. So another area Vingegaard made up some time. Granted, the TT bike was probably not as good on the climbs compared to Pogacar’s road bike but over such a short course it didn’t make much difference whereas the switching of bikes probably made more.

As above, I find cheating abhorrent. But on this occasion I think Vingegaard just put more in and got the tactics spot on compared to Pogacar.

Looking forward to today’s mountain stage immensely. Lots of twists and turns left in this race yet, I reckon.

[mountain man]

Pogacar been onto deck this morning, looks ok but some cuts to left knee and elbow. Not going to help matters.
Jumbo Visma setting a high pace in peloton again. Such a lot of climbing today that going too hard too early could be catastrophic.

[formerly known as Sam]

I'd also suggest that going into this event the two biggest names in the race were surely tested on several occasions. Cycling has a patchy history and there's no way they'd want the biggest race in the world rocked by another controversy.

[formerly known as Sam]

Pogacar been onto deck this morning, looks ok but some cuts to left knee and elbow. Not going to help matters.
Jumbo Visma setting a high pace in peloton again. Such a lot of climbing today that going too hard too early could be catastrophic.

I didn't see the crash, was it a case of fatigue and slow reactions or was it just bad luck?

[mountain man]

Think just a touching of wheels, fairly innocuous. He was right by Vingegaard at time but he wasn't involved.

[formerly known as Sam]

Talk about a display of power.

[No name Bertie]

I see that Pogacar has been broken, not sure if the fall played a part, but he is going to lose several minutes to Vingegaard on this stage.

[formerly known as Sam]

I see that Pogacar has been broken, not sure if the fall played a part, but he is going to lose several minutes to Vingegaard on this stage.

Must have done. It wasn't even a Vingegaard attack. Kuss and Vingegaard are then away.

[mountain man]

Pogacar cracked. That's it for GC, Vingegaard just needs to stay upright.
Great ride by Yates

[No name Bertie]

The talk now is whether Pogacar can hold on to second. Vingegaard gained another 5 minutes over Pogacar today.

[mountain man]

Gap is a staggering 7 minutes 35 seconds!

I thought someone could crack today, I'm a bit surprised it was Pogacar.

Anyway, brilliant by Vingegaard.

Deserved winner

[formerly known as Sam]

The talk now is whether Pogacar can hold on to second.  Vingegaard gained another 5 minutes over Pogacar today.

Rodriguez and Simon Yates are a still a fair chunk back. They'd have to chop about five minutes out of Pogacar on Saturday to take second. Adam Yates is closer but I can't see UAE wanting their two riders to start attacking each other.

[No name Bertie]

Vingegaard is only two years older (26) than Pogacar (24) - so the era of Pogacar could become the era of Vingegaard .... Time will tell and both have plenty of time on their hands.

[formerly known as Sam]

Vingegaard is only two years older (26) than Pogacar (24) - so the era of Pogacar could become the era of Vingegaard .... Time will tell and both have plenty of time on their hands.

Or fingers crossed we get many more years of them going toe to toe and racing hard.

[TAFKA The Oracle]

Have to say, I’ve really enjoyed the tour this year. Always do. But, each stage (apart from maybe 1) has been full of drama this year. That stage a few days back when no one knew what was going on, not even the riders, was such good entertainment! At one point the ‘peloton’ was only about 8 riders! It was a fascinating stage.

Hate to say it, but the years of Sky when they were so dominant and controlling really took the edge off the TDF for me. It was great for the purists perhaps. But stage after stage of a big team just being efficient and not doing much but steer their GC rider around the stages…….. it was impressive but not nearly as entertaining as what had been served up this last few years.

[Azabache]

This sort of dominance inevitably raises suspicions. Let's hope the testing regime is as rigorous and up-to-date (i.e. knowledge of the latest "enhancements") as we are lead to believe.

Towards the end of this Queen stage the commentators were starting the slavish hero worshipping of Vingegaard that Lance attracted. I sincerely hope that we don't get revelations down the line.

For such a dominant team TJV don't seem particularly happy! Is ambition or some form of fear driving them? I can't help thinking back to the Soviet era when the joke was that the football teams were motivated by at best the gulag, at worst the firing squad!

From about halfway I was getting more interest in observing the efforts of Pinot (all human life is there!), the Yates' twins, Majka et al. than the Humourless Automatons.

[mountain man]

The reason Vingegaard got such a gap yesterday was due to Pogacar blowing up, not the fact Vingegaard was so much better.
He "only" came 4th remember so are you then saying Gall, Yates and Bilbao are also doping?

I believe Vingegaard to be clean, I have no proof of this of course just as those throwing out accusations dont have proof he or anyone else is cheating.
Riders are innocent until proven guilty. As I've said previously, I can't stand cheating of any kind and I will be first to condemn if anyone found to have done so. They are tested so often, especially stage winners and yellow jersey wearer that we have to have faith in that.
Also, given terrible history of doping in cycling they would have to be either stupid or 100% convinced they will never be caught and no-one can be sure of that.

I think this year has been fantastic, best TdF for years.

[Soul Requiem]

The reason Vingegaard got such a gap yesterday was due to Pogacar blowing up, not the fact Vingegaard was so much better.
He "only" came 4th remember so are you then saying Gall, Yates and Bilbao are also doping?

I believe Vingegaard to be clean, I have no proof of this of course just as those throwing out accusations dont have proof he or anyone else is cheating.
Riders are innocent until proven guilty. As I've said previously, I can't stand cheating of any kind and I will be first to condemn if anyone found to have done so. They are tested so often, especially stage winners and yellow jersey wearer that we have to have faith in that.
Also, given terrible history of doping in cycling they would have to be either stupid or 100% convinced they will never be caught and no-one can be sure of that.

I think this year has been fantastic, best TdF for years.

Vingegaard coming 4th is in itself not an argument for or against doping. It's only natural that anyone following cycling is suspicious of anyone in the peloton because of the sports history, that won't be changing any time soon and nor should it. There are certain alarm bells that shouldn't be ignored, that's not to say anyone suspected is actually doping. It was only in 2019 that Froome was declared the winner of the 2011 Vuelta.

[mountain man]

As I said...

Also, given terrible history of doping in cycling they would have to be either stupid or 100% convinced they will never be caught and no-one can be sure of that.

[Soul Requiem]

As I said...

Also, given terrible history of doping in cycling they would have to be either stupid or 100% convinced they will never be caught and no-one can be sure of that.

If that were even vaguely true no one would ever had been caught doping. Testing is and probably always will be reactive to doping practices.

[mountain man]

Well, I guess we just have to believe what we believe.

Testing is very rigorous and of course some will try and cheat system but if I thought peloton was dirty I'd find it very hard to watch.

For me it's sports like athletics which is far worse, the amount caught there is a stunning condemnation. Without googling to find out I'm struggling to recall any failed tests in cycling this year.

[Azabache]

Very true-this incredibly high endurance sport has long been the favourite of lazy journalists to indulge in all sorts of facile investigations and "exposés", whilst virtually ignoring athletics, football etc.

Be thankful that the BBC is not doing the daily coverage; I've really enjoyed ITV4's.

[formerly known as Sam]

As I said...

Also, given terrible history of doping in cycling they would have to be either stupid or 100% convinced they will never be caught and no-one can be sure of that.

If that were even vaguely true no one would ever had been caught doping. Testing is and probably always will be reactive to doping practices.

Not since the athletic biological passport system. Instead of testing for substances in the system they test for differences in markers in blood and urine. I'm not a scientist but from what I understand it's very difficult to mask reactive fluctuations in those from taking banned substances. Once they've noticed variances additional testing begins.

Lance himself said you couldn't cheat the passport system.

Now the THERAPEUTIC USE EXEMPTION part of the rules for medication now that's the area of potential cheating. Albeit way more limited than the days of just taking as much EPO as you could get your hands on.

[mountain man]

Well no question during team SKY days likes of Wiggins and Froome were under suspicion and rightly so for some very dubious practice by team using TUE for asthma.
Again I like to think Froome especially was clean, without knowing the guy of course he just doesn't seem the cheating type.
However, only he knows for sure.

[formerly known as Sam]

Another great stage today. Pinot tries his best but other than creating a spectacle he didn't look like he was going to win.

Felt sorry for Pidcock being called back out of the action at the sharp end to help out Rodriguez after that nasty looking fall.

I wasn't expecting a sprint finish at the end of this stage.

[mountain man]

Another cracking stage on best TdF in a long time.
Shame for French fans lining route Pinot couldn't make it but once Pogacar, Vingegaard and Yates bros caught break that was that.

Bit of redemption after "only" finishing 2nd in tour for Pogacar. Vingegaard settles for yellow. Yates confirms podium with Yates 4th.

As I have a cycling event myself tomorrow(not quite TdF standard) I'll miss Paris stage but will watch highlights in evening.

[Soul Requiem]

Pogacar needs to be better tactically in future tours, he expended a lot of uneccesary energy in the numerous mid stages for little gain which left him spent for the final week. He did the same last year as well, stage wins don't mean a lot come paris.

[No name Bertie]

Another cracking stage on best TdF in a long time...

Today was cracking while a few days ago it was a different type of cracking.

[mountain man]

Pogacar needs to be better tactically in future tours, he expended a lot of uneccesary energy in the numerous mid stages for little gain which left him spent for the final week. He did the same last year as well, stage wins don't mean a lot come paris.

I disagree actually. That was his mistake last year but this year certainly first 2 weeks he sat on a lot and let Jumbo Visma do all the pulling. He wasn't attacking numerous times like in 2022 TdF but the loss in TT had a big affect on him mentally I think and when he cracked, he cracked big time.
Have to also credit Vingegaard for getting strategy and timing perfect again. He peaked in final week which is what he did last year.

[Soul Requiem]

Pogacar needs to be better tactically in future tours, he expended a lot of uneccesary energy in the numerous mid stages for little gain which left him spent for the final week. He did the same last year as well, stage wins don't mean a lot come paris.

I disagree actually. That was his mistake last year but this year certainly first 2 weeks he sat on a lot and let Jumbo Visma do all the pulling. He wasn't attacking numerous times like in 2022 TdF but the loss in TT had a big affect on him mentally I think and when he cracked, he cracked big time.
Have to also credit Vingegaard for getting strategy and timing perfect again. He peaked in final week which is what he did last year.

Pogacar and his team know that Vingegaard is looking to peak later on so could have preserved energy a bit in the second week. I feel like that misused Adam Yates somewhat, he should have been the one pushing on to try and make Vingegaard work.

[formerly known as Sam]

I think UAE made errors early doors trying to play some mind games with Jumbo. As soon as Vingegaard made those first gains though they moved into playing a much better tactical battle. Pogacar seemingly didn't have enough time to fully get back up to three week fitness after his injury though. Perhaps next year he'll have to limit his Classics participation to ensure more prep time for the Tour.

[Azabache]

One can make a case for him unwisely "doing a Merckx" in attempting so many Classics; the broken wrist undoubtedly put him back; and tactics were at times questionable, sometimes verging on the flamboyant which yielded very little (except-as has been pointed out-knackering him); but in the final analysis it boils down to the old adage "the team is everything". TJV are coldly, mercilessly efficient-I personally do not care for their approach which some observers are commentating is in danger of casting a pall over the sport, and in some respects is worse than what we experienced with US Postal and-to a lesser extent-Team Sky-with those two examples they did at least have some "characters"-some loved, some disliked-there seems to be little of this essential human element with TJV.

Individually, there are some riders that one can warm to, and open up in interviews-I cite from random van Aert and the Durango Kid (aka Sepp Kuss) but collectively the team seems to lock up, and to me lacks warmth, spirit and that indefinable human element. This must be due to the grip of the management.

I started to lose interest in this final week as it was obvious that nothing would change. The French public seemed to be of like view.

Anyway, let TJV bask in their victory! Can we expect real joy on Sunday?

[mountain man]

That's it then.

Best TdF in years.
Vingegaard superb and deserved winner.
Pogcar will be back next year to fight again. Loved it today with him attacking off front on Champs Elysees, he's a class act and great to watch.
Adam Tates really good 3rd place overall.

[No name Bertie]

I caught part of an interview with Peter Sagan and he was asked what had changed over the years while he had been racing. He suggested a lot had changed from when he was winning stages and now. I think he said that nowadays there is a lot more team micromanagement over the radio so breakaways are more difficult.

[mountain man]

I think standard gets higher every year, better training, better nutrition, better recovery etc.

Look at how breakaways kept away from 50kms out with less than a minute gap and went on to get a win, rarely happened in past especially into a headwind. Now there are a lot of riders who are strong enough to make it stick.

[Azabache]

I saw an interview with Jonas last week where he was dressed in casual clothes and hadn't realised how slightly built he is-almost elfin like.

Yesterday, when the TJV team were abreast during the victory celebrations, again his build struck me compared to all the other members-and I'm not just talking about beasts like van Aert!

A build made for those long climbs indeed; though one wonders how he can sustain on those long flat stages. Remarkable indeed. Still, it's always been true that "a climber can win the Tour, but never a sprinter"-there are innumerable past examples.

Is his power data to be published?

[mountain man]

Even for an out and out climber he is wafer thin. Pogacar looked positively muscular in comparison. Suspect some of it is genetics, he's predisposed to be that build and rest of it of course, diet, training etc geared entirely to goal of winning GC races.

He's also incredibly pale, obviously puts on sunscreen but he looks deathly white sometimes especially when really pushing hard.

Obviously mega fit but not what I consider healthy!

[Azabache]

Many of the great riders are freaks of nature-look at Froome! Pantani....

Let's hope that, and the other factors you mention, are the only reasons....

[dummy_half]

There was an interesting comment from IIRC Vaughters on Eurosport in the middle of the Tour, saying that when he was a young rider and earlier, riders needed strong legs because they often had to ride gears that were bigger than optimal, whereas now the increased number of gears and wider spread means the races are more about pure cardio / aerobic capacity, which probably favours Vingegaard and the other absolute waifs compared with the slightly more powerfully-built riders.

[Azabache]

The tech features you cite go back many years though...

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