Scotland v Italy, final day of 6Ns

First topic message reminder :

Scotland v Italy

BT Murrayfield

KO 1230pm

I thought I'd start this as I want to find out what changes you'd make for next week due to, 1) poor performance today, 2) injury worries to Richie Gray, Finn Russell, Stuart Hogg and Blair Kinghorn and 3) the 6 day turnaround.

This is a potential banana skin but we have enough attacking threats that SHOULD have too much for this Italy team that have just lost at home to arguably the worse team this 6N. Imho we need to win this to firstly appease the supporters are had to endure that dire 2nd half today, secondly to end the campaign on a high (likely ending 3rd) and finally to give us something to build on for the world cup warm ups and the world cup itself.

I posted in the 6Ns build up thread that I think today probably seals Gregor's fate at the end of the year so he'll be looking to win what is likely his last yN match as head coach.

I can't predict a potential 23 as the OPs of the other matchday threads have so I'll leave that to you peeps :P.

What’s the captain screaming about? Clear knock on.

Oh that's harsh ...

Great work Scotland. I didn’t see that coming!

TAFKA The Oracle wrote:What’s the captain screaming about? Clear knock on.

More annoyed at themselves I'd think. They've blown, what, at least 2 wins this 6ns.

Crowley’s going to have a few words to say after this game I reckon!

That’s hard on the Italians, we got very lucky there but the belief to run that from our 22 with the clock in the red… wow got to love that. Great result in the end, if not a good performance for the most part

No 7&1/2 wrote:

TAFKA The Oracle wrote:What’s the captain screaming about? Clear knock on.

More annoyed at themselves I'd think. They've blown, what, at least 2 wins this 6ns.

A lot of frustration, more than a hint of Scottish offside.

Incredible fourth try by the Scots though.

Been a really good game.

Must be so frustrating to be an Italian fan - probably even worse than being an England fan and that's saying something ...

Must be massively frustrating to be an Italian fan, the amount of chances they've missed in pretty much every game this tournament. I was somewhat surprised they didn't scrum with one of those last penalties, try and tie some of the Scottish forwards up, though to be fair it's hardly been an area of supremacy for them this game.

Scotland just about did enough, but they pretty much stopped playing after they went 19-6 up, and their game management needs work.

Heaf wrote:The one that Nige said should have been play on ...

Nige is talking nonsense - the initial Italian player was fine but went off his feet which then blocked White from picking it up. correct call

Nice try, but a bit hyperbolic calling it brave, as they had penalty advantage ...

Italy really should have won a game or two in this tournament. Just small things going awry but its happening too often

Just showed the last ruck - hmmm looked like a Scottish player got up and made a tackle without going back behind the line/back foot ...

TJ wrote:

Heaf wrote:The one that Nige said should have been play on ...

Nige is talking nonsense - the initial Italian player was fine but went off his feet which then blocked White from picking it up.  correct call

Again I'd have to see it again but I thought he rolled to the side out of the way ... could be wrong though.

Well done Scotland. Like Scotland previously Italy are so close to getting over the line to win games. Another year or two and they will be there. I th8nk first tournament they have played where games were much tighter and alot morecin the balance.

Good to see Scotland be favourites and win, doing it v Wales and Italy show their growth.

Heaf wrote:

TJ wrote:

Heaf wrote:The one that Nige said should have been play on ...

Nige is talking nonsense - the initial Italian player was fine but went off his feet which then blocked White from picking it up.  correct call

Again I'd have to see it again but I thought he rolled to the side out of the way ... could be wrong though.

he did - but for a second he was lying on the wrong side stopping white picking the ball up. It would have been no pen if another Italian didn't go for the jackel I think - but you cannot reward a jackel while there is a player on the wrong side of the ruck

OK fair enough

Brendan wrote:Well done Scotland.  Like Scotland previously Italy are so close to getting over the line to win games.  Another year or two and they will be there.  I th8nk first tournament they have played where games were much tighter and alot morecin the balance.

Good to see Scotland be favourites and win, doing it v Wales and Italy show their growth.

Scotland have beaten italy something like ten times in a row and won 3 6 nations games in a championship 5 times since 2017. They should be putting italy to the sword, today was a 2/10 performance. Horrible. Wales and england should be put to the sword annually too we've got to be looking up not down. Worrying how bad we look without russell, gilchrist and richie.

Where was Russell by the way - is he injured?

Heaf wrote:Where was Russell by the way - is he injured?

Knee ligament injury.

I hope today puts an end to the BlareWhich Project. He isn't an international class 10. He fully deserves a place in the squad as back up back 3/ emergency 10 but he isn't our back up 10.

monty junior wrote:

Brendan wrote:Well done Scotland.  Like Scotland previously Italy are so close to getting over the line to win games.  Another year or two and they will be there.  I th8nk first tournament they have played where games were much tighter and alot morecin the balance.

Good to see Scotland be favourites and win, doing it v Wales and Italy show their growth.

Scotland have beaten italy something like ten times in a row and won 3 6 nations games in a championship 5 times since 2017. They should be putting italy to the sword, today was a 2/10 performance. Horrible. Wales and england should be put to the sword annually too we've got to be looking up not down. Worrying how bad we look without russell, gilchrist and richie.

Not at all.  Italy have pushed other teams close including France.  they have been very unlucky not to win a game this series.

Not a great performance from Scotland but whats to be expected when we have lost several crucial players and leadership 7/10 from Scotland

The problem for Italy is they don't score much off early phase ball. They're easy to defend against because once you've let them have a go a few phases you just know they'll drop the ball, pass to touch, out on the full or generally arse it up in some other imaginative way. Lots of spirit but faf all technique. Think the wooden spooners should have to qualify with the next highest ranked european side each year (Georgia are ranked higher than Italy).

jimbopip wrote:I hope today puts an end to the BlareWhich Project. He isn't an international class 10. He fully deserves a place in the squad as back up back 3/ emergency 10 but he isn't our back up 10.

100% jimbo.

He sits so deep he’s almost playing fullback at times. Ironically when he is playing at 15 he just looks so much better

Folk will say “but he scored three tries”

He did. Bit one was at fullback mans his first was like a fullback coming into the line instead of a distributing 10.

I’m a forward, the best forward never to play for Scotland (said no one ever) but I can see that Blair is a 15 / winger. He’s not a stand off. I don’t care how much experience Gregor has or Mike Blair. Kinghorn is not a stand off.

Here endeth the lesson

For his first try he eas so slow that Shona over ran the pass so Blarehorn had to take it on.

Man Scotland still displaying the old mental fragilities. Allan's try came from Scotland stupidly trying to run it out from the 22, and was entirely avoidable. Scotland lost their nerve a bit in the middle of the 2nd half. That game was there for the taking for Italy.

Price showed the leadership that comes with experience and put it on the toe nicely a few times for territory. He won us the game.

Blairhorn: it is what it is. He's a talented footballer still learning on the job. His first was a bit spawny, but the 2nd and 3rd showed nice touches.

I'd have Tuipulotu alongside Fickou and Sexton in my team of the tournament.

Another great game from Dempsey. 23 tackles with none missed but also made 52m off 13 runs.

monty junior wrote:

Brendan wrote:Well done Scotland.  Like Scotland previously Italy are so close to getting over the line to win games.  Another year or two and they will be there.  I th8nk first tournament they have played where games were much tighter and alot morecin the balance.

Good to see Scotland be favourites and win, doing it v Wales and Italy show their growth.

Scotland have beaten italy something like ten times in a row and won 3 6 nations games in a championship 5 times since 2017. They should be putting italy to the sword, today was a 2/10 performance. Horrible. Wales and england should be put to the sword annually too we've got to be looking up not down. Worrying how bad we look without russell, gilchrist and richie.

You don’t have much history of putting these teams to the sword, so I’d take it one step at a time.

Well it wasn't an overly fluid game but it is forever thus against Italy. Italy have developed an attacking gameplan but their skill level isn't quite up to scratch at this level - there were some terrible attempts at 2 on 1s and basic passes gone to ground. They are definitely a lot more competitive now though but it is so hard for them in the toughest rugby tournament.

As for Scotland, not great but we got the win. Defence was excellent throughout. Lineout was still dodgy and our discipline reverted back to our bad habits. We were generally lacking control too which Price did his best to restore when he came on.

Blair was of course a big reason for that lack of control but also did well in a lot of aspects. Saying that, if this was the 23 we had from the beginning of the tournament we probably wouldn't be sitting on 3 wins right now.

But we are and 'best of the rest' is a successful tournament for Scotland there is no doubt.

Just caught up on the 2nd half, then made the mistake of going to reddit/instagram/twitter. Fair to say there are a lot of people unhappy with the ref. He wasn't great, but I don't think he favoured one team over another, but according to social media Scotland should had multiple yellow cards, had a penalty try awarded against them, and at least 3 of their tries chalked off. I think i might take a SM break

I see from a few media outlets that Gregor is keen to extend his contract and that talks have begun regarding this so what are your thoughts on this ?

Imho I would be delighted if he stayed on because we're progressing under him and I truly believe we can further improve under his leadership .

RDW wrote:..........................
But we are and 'best of the rest' is a successful tournament for Scotland there is no doubt.

Not in my book. Its a par performance. successful would have been 4 wins. Great would have been 5 wins. 3 is par anything less is failure

this is supposed to be the best Scotland team for decades. They came into the tournament with a settled side and coaching team. Everything set up for them

I'm not going to call it a failure but it sure is not successful and we shouldn't settle for mediocrity

TJ wrote:

RDW wrote:..........................
But we are and 'best of the rest' is a successful tournament for Scotland there is no doubt.

Not in my book.  Its a par performance.  successful would have been 4 wins.  Great would have been 5 wins.  3 is par anything less is failure

this is supposed to be the best Scotland team for decades.  They came into the tournament with a settled side and coaching team.  Everything set up for them

I'm not going to call it a failure but it sure is not successful and we shouldn't settle for mediocrity

So by your logic:

Par = joint equal with our best ever 6N result.

Success= achieving something we've never done in the 6N era, in a tournament involving the top 2 teams in the world who are both on a wonderful run of form.

That's not how par works! Even noted the supposed best ever team of the 6N era (which I'm not sure I'd agree with)

I'm not saying we should be actively celebrating and patting ourselves on the back, but it's pretty delusional to set such a high bar. A few other points on why 3 wins (and a real chance of beating France away too) should be seen as a good tournament:

- This time a year ago we had a massive identity crisis after a poor tournament. Both our attack and defence looked confused and lost. To have turned that around so quickly and give us something to build on for the WC is a positive.

- I'll say this until I'm blue in the face, it is a miracle that Scotland are even competitive at this level never mind actually in the running (which we were with 2 games to go). We have such fewer resources than all other teams that it doesn't make any sense how we can compete. We have fewer adult male rugby players than Madagascar.

I really hope you're not a teacher if this is how you judge success! "Now Timmy you haven't been able to invent a warp speed engine so I'm afraid in gonna have to give you a C"

Have we not had 3 wins quite a few recent series?

Its about not accepting mediocrity as good enough. Its about aspirations. IMO 3 wins is the minimum acceptable.

I understand TJ's point but I think it's harsh.

Let's go back to 2014. Ireland won the 6 Nations, O'Driscoll's swansong season. We came 5th (1 won, 4 lost).

That brought Ireland to 3rd in the world rankings for the second time (2006 being the first time). At that time, the rankings were 1. New Zealand, 2. South Africa, 3. Ireland, 4. Australia, 5. England, 6. France, 7. Wales, 8. Scotland, 9. Argentina, 10. Japan.

Look at the rankings now: 1. Ireland, 2. France, 3. New Zealand, 4. South Africa, 5. Scotland, 6. England, 7. Australia, 8. Argentina, 9. Wales, 10. Japan.

I think that historical familiarity with the opposition means we aren't being objective about what a feat it is to beat them. We were hugely competitive with the 1 and 2 ranked sides in the world for most of the game but effectively lost each time due to lack of intensity, errors and poor game management in one or two quarters.

In summary, we beat the sides that our own world ranking indicated that we should beat. That's a 'par' result for me. Am I disappointed that our main issue seems to be lack of game management and nous? Yes, but that kind of thing comes with experience.

I watched it last night when I got home from work also having looked at the social media references about it.

While it was far from a classic, it was no-where near as bad as I was lead to believe.

Scotland had the better of the game, no doubt and took our chances. Italy gamely stuck in there, but on the whole squandered theirs. That could have been the Scotland team of 5 or 6 years ago and you would imagine that Italy are on a similar trajectory. They will continue to improve and you would imagine will be winning some of these close games over the next few years.

For Scotland maybe a few reasons why we were a little bit flat.

The 6 day turnaround and the come down from the Ireland game where undoubtedly factors. I don't think you can stress enough just how hard it is to play 5 test matches in 7 weeks. I think a lot of our players were tired and it showed. paradoxically not sustaining many injuries meant more strain on the players who played through the whole tournament and maybe we would have been better to have rotated the squad a little bit more throughout.

Finn not playing was a factor as well. BK, despite playing well, still does not convince as an international FH. It probably was the right decision to play him there for this match though and debut Healy off the bench but maybe in future, with Healy or Hastings available, he would have chosen another option.

Why did we not kick our penalties and keep the scoreboard turning over? There were several guaranteed 3 pointers there that we turned down. Despite dominating the first 50 minutes, we never really got away from them on the scoreboard. I think if we had, it would have been a different game. probably a bit disrespectful to Italy not to have done that and it almost cost us!


Despite all that there were definitely some positives to take from the game.A few players really stood up and played well and it is hard to say anyone had a bad game.

Dempsey, a very worthy MoM and we now do have a second genuinely good ball carrying back row. He has grown in to the tournament.

Ollie Smith I thought had a very solid game at FB and will only get better as he gets more experience. With him and Kinghorn champing at the bit, Hoggy is going to have to be playing well to get back into the team.

Kinghorn, had a good game and a very good tournament, probably the best consistent run he has had for Scotland. You could easily see him starting at 15 in the WC games or he will remain a very good utility bench option.

Ali Price, saved his best till last and looked a lot more like his old self yesterday. He added some control to our play in the second half when we needed it and showed he still has the eye for a break, even if he does not quite have the pace of George Horne. You suspect he will still be backing Ben White up for this upcoming WC.


The tournament as a whole - more positives than negatives. It is hard to overstate just how good Ireland and France are at the moment and we were close in both games, even if we are not quite there yet.

TJ wrote:

RDW wrote:..........................
But we are and 'best of the rest' is a successful tournament for Scotland there is no doubt.

Not in my book.  Its a par performance.  successful would have been 4 wins.  Great would have been 5 wins.  3 is par anything less is failure

TJ, to quote Damon Runyon (yet again),

"I am long ago coming to the conclusion that everything in this life is 6 to 4 against."

The older I get the more I agree with that sentiment. In the long run most people lose more than they win; at anything. We won more than we lost, this year. In the two matches we lost there were some very good moments. That's a par score for me.
Scotland are a good side. I'm fairly certain we won't win the World Cup this year. I have a nagging feeling we won't get out the group. Is that settling for mediocrity or being realistic? I don't know, but I do know this team played very well at times, reasonably well at times and fecc me that was shocking three or four times over five very tough matches. I'll call that better that 6 to 4 against.

So it's a par.

It’s 50/50. Had England and wales not been so terrible then this would be a good tournament. But really wales and England, especially when we played them, were truly awful.

But you can only beat what’s in front of you.

We ask lost to the top two teams in the world. No shame in that.

Our big issue is we realistically won’t be getting out our group. Again, we’re in the truly stupid position of being 5th in the world and being in a group containing the world number 1s and the reigning champions.

A pretty reasonable assessment from grump Uncle Tom!



A year ago to the day, Scotland rounded off a disappointing Six Nations with a dismal defeat in Dublin at the end of a divisive week.

It ended with truculent media conferences as coach and captain tried to duck and dive their way through questioning about boozegate - or whatever it was called at the time.

Things look altogether different now. Sunnier. More optimistic. Italy took Scotland to a very dark place in the closing minutes at Murrayfield on Saturday, but they survived and prospered.

They were one defensive slip away from defeat, but held firm, broke out and scored a length-of-the-field try that guaranteed them third place in the Six Nations table behind the world number one and two.

That's as good as Scotland could have realistically hoped for and probably a whole lot better than most imagined when the championship began in early February.

It was an absorbing campaign - two wins in a row at the beginning for the first time since 1996, a new midfield partnership that lit the place up, some tries that were cosmic in their creation, a comeback in Paris that threatened to be something extraordinary - and then that fretful game on Saturday and a long stare into a rugby abyss.

In assessing Scotland's season and what things looks like now that the World Cup is beginning to loom large, there's a bit to get through, so let take it in small steps.

Player of the championship
From Huw Jones and Sione Tuipulotu in the midfield, to Duhan van der Merwe outside, to Finn Russell as magician, Blair Kinghorn as super-sub-cum-hat-trick-saviour, and Richie Gray as the totem of the second-row, there are choices.

Pierre Schoeman takes it, though. How often do props figure on these lists? Schoeman warrants it, big-time. As a carrier, scrummager, defender and breakdown nuisance, he was immense.

Schoeman carried for 65m against the French (no forward on either side made that kind of ground) and made another 65m against Ireland (only Jack Dempsey and James Ryan topped his number). Only Dempsey out-carried against Italy.

Schoeman made 13 tackles against Wales and 16 against England and he never played more than 66 minutes. When he went off against the Irish, things started to go south. The hairy one had a huge championship and has become utterly invaluable.

Try of the championship
We thought we might wait an age to see another one as good as Van der Merwe's first at Twickenham. Actually, we only had to wait 50 minutes.

The signs weren't good in the final quarter. Scotland had kicked out on the full, then butchered an opportunity on the hour, then kicked out on the full again on 73 minutes. They trailed 23-22 with four minutes to go - and found something magnificent.

They'd put in a massive defensive shift to that point, so the energy, accuracy, speed and ambition of that winning try was breathtaking. Attacking up the right, sweeping left, the finish in the corner from Van der Merwe - everything about it was world class.


Six Nations highlights: England 23-29 Scotland
The redemption songs
Given we already knew how good Tuipulotu and Jones can be, would be it fair to call their excellent partnership a surprise? Probably, yes, because the expectation at the outset was that it would Tuipulotu and Chris Harris in Scotland's midfield.

Townsend hit on something wondrous when he went down a more attacking road. For both men, it was a redemption.

Tuipulotu had been one of the Edinburgh Six last season, the group who went drinking after the Italy game. He didn't even figure in the 23 against Ireland on the final day a year ago.

Jones' comeback has been a delight. He'd been a cowed and anxious figure at Glasgow under Dave Rennie, then moved to Harlequins and found his mojo again, only to get injured before last summer's tour to Argentina.

The way Jones has fought back and reminded everyone what an exceptional player he is has been one of the great highlights.

The unluckiest man
There's only one contender, a runaway winner. Luke Crosbie was unsung in the victory over England, but his defensive work was terrific and he started again in the Wales game.

Two wins from two - and he was dropped. He didn't even make another match-day squad.

It was harsh on him because of all the men who wore Scotland's seven jersey in the championship (Crosbie, Jamie Ritchie, Hamish Watson), Crosbie looked the most effective in his performance in the Calcutta Cup. Hopefully he'll be back.

Most painful moment
The way Scotland fought back from 19-0 down to 25-21 in Paris was arguably the most impressive hour of their entire tournament. They completely dominated France for vast chunks of time. In their own backyard, the world number two looked in deep, deep trouble.

Led by a quite brilliant performance from Russell, Scotland were scaring the life out of the French. With five minutes to go, the visitors were on the front foot, an attacking lineout to come and a home crowd in panic mode.

Whatever went wrong - an overthrow, a bad call, a late lift - they lost that lineout and that was the turning point. From a chance to win or, worse case, a losing bonus point, they conceded late and left town with nothing.

The lineout is one of Scotland's biggest areas of work now. When Richie Gray is there then all is fairly well, When he's not, the thing is a weakness that the best sides will exploit. There's a ton of work to be done there.

Most infuriating moment

How Ireland beat Scotland in five minutes
When injury robbed Ireland of both hookers and openside Josh van der Flier had to throw into the lineout, that should have been Scotland's cue to take a wrecking ball to Ireland out of touch.

They couldn't do it. When the game was in the melting pot, Van der Flier threw five conservative balls to the front of the lineout and Ireland won it every time. There was no Scottish disruptor, no Scottish voice noising up Van der Flier and trying to put him off.

There was a whole lot of niceness. Niceness was never going to cut it against Peter O'Mahony. Scotland had a chance to mess with Irish heads and they failed to take it.

Russell against Wales
In the second half, when his inspiration was badly needed after a stodgy first 40, the fly-half was a joy. The way he ran the game was magnificent.

Offloading out the side door for a Kyle Steyn try, a cross-kick to Steyn for another. It was a masterclass of inventive rugby.

His assists that day brought his total since the start of the 2022 Test season to 10, more than any other player in the world. How many of the four World Cup warm-up games does Russell play in? As few as possible. The man is irreplaceable at 10.


Six Nations: Stellar Russell pass allows Steyn to complete try
World Cup on the horizon
It's beyond daunting, the group stage beginning with a Test against the world champion South Africans and ending with a Test against the Grand Slam winning Irish.

Scotland need to get off to a flyer. They have more chance of catching the Springboks in game one than beating an Irish side they haven't beaten in the last eight attempts.

South Africa have struggled in their opening game of the World Cup three times in a row. They lost to New Zealand in 2019, to Japan in 2015 and struggled to beat Wales by a point in 2011. That's Scotland's main hope. Catch the Boks early.

To do that, Townsend needs fortune to shine down on him. From today to the day he names his 33-man squad, he will pray for a clean bill of health on the injury front.

The loss of any one of Jones, Tuipulotu, Russell, Schoeman, Zander Fagerson and Richie Gray would be a serious issue in the bid to slay the giant.

Absent friends
This was only the second time in a decade that Scotland finished third and they did it without Darcy Graham, Rory Darge and Stuart McInally playing a solitary minute. Grant Gilchrist missed the last two games.

There's not huge world-class depth but there's hope and a feeling that the World Cup can't come quickly enough. Scotland will be considerable underdogs in France - how could they be anything but given the company they'll be keeping - but they're improving and, fully loaded, they'll be dangerous.

They'll take a breather now but before they know it they'll back into it with the clock ticking down to September 10 in Marseille that intoxicating meeting with the mighty Boks.

I certainly agree on Schoeman. He's been excellent. Not a weak spot to his game. Rock solid scrummager, good carrier and hard hitting defender. I'd say he's right up there with guys like Kitshoff and Porter as one of the best LHs in rugby currently.