England 2023 - Post 6N and beyond

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Continued......

Martin is a decent jumper at lineout time. He's not going to lead the lineout and he's no Kruis, Kay etc but Tigers have been using him a fair bit of late and he's more than comfortable competing on opposition ball as well.

I see him as being an ideal number 19 if everyone is available. Lock or 6 he can come on and add physicality during the second half. Do the nuts and bolts jobs but England do tend to drop off and Martin coming on with that work rate and ability to influence collisions positively could be really useful.

If you look at the French game, having someone to stop their heavy carriers getting over the gain line would have helped out our defence immensely. It's a role Martin has played since his debut at Tigers.

Just reading what Maro is saying about moving abroad....wonder how many will eventually go.

And when from...

Geordie wrote:Just reading what Maro is saying about moving abroad....wonder how many will eventually go.

And when from...

I'd take that with a pinch of salt. I think several of the players in the discussion have the same agents, and this is a bit of PR designed to push the RFU/PRL towards reforming things. My guess is that they're hoping to accelerate dual contracts

I wouldn't underestimate how the players feel about this. Salaries actually going down and feeling like they are not paid what they are worth. That would be enough to drive players away, especially the more senior players. I think there might be a real exodus after the RWC.

By the way, since today is Passover, I wanted to find a way to use the word 'Exodus' in a sentence. Adds symmetry to the day. I got that from someone on radio this morning talking about the exodus of people getting away for the holiday weekend clogging up the airports and highways.

Leicester using Steward on the wing and Brown at 15 this weekend, I see. I can't imagine Sam will be too chuffed.

Poorfour wrote:Leicester using Steward on the wing and Brown at 15 this weekend, I see. I can't imagine Sam will be too chuffed.

Various injuries forcing their hand basically with Guy Porter and Matt Scott both out.

Phil Cokanasiga has been absent through a combination of injury and being out of favour. He's really a specialist 12 who struggled defensively at 13 but looked good going forward. I hope he gets more chances but even if he is fit playing 13 against Ringrose isn't the moment!

Then winger wise. Murimurivalu is injured I think. Ashton has been a long way off last seasons performances this year. Saumaki hasn't been seen in yonks - electric in attack but very weak defensively. Which leaves the choice between Brown or Simmons once Potter moved to 13. Brown has been in fantastic form to be fair.

king_carlos wrote:

Poorfour wrote:Leicester using Steward on the wing and Brown at 15 this weekend, I see. I can't imagine Sam will be too chuffed.

Various injuries forcing their hand basically with Guy Porter and Matt Scott both out.

Phil Cokanasiga has been absent through a combination of injury and being out of favour. He's really a specialist 12 who struggled defensively at 13 but looked good going forward. I hope he gets more chances but even if he is fit playing 13 against Ringrose isn't the moment!

Then winger wise. Murimurivalu is injured I think. Ashton has been a long way off last seasons performances this year. Saumaki hasn't been seen in yonks - electric in attack but very weak defensively. Which leaves the choice between Brown or Simmons once Potter moved to 13. Brown has been in fantastic form to be fair.

I could end up being massively wrong, but I don't think Cokanasiga is actually that good. He just never looked 100% confident for LI. A few lovely moments here and there, but a lot of dropped balls, bad options and missed defensive reads in with it. He's still young and has the athleticism to build on and bring things together, but despite a lot being made of it, I wasn't hugely concerned when he left.

In fact now I've said all that, he'll definitely be a breakout star next season...

Margin_Walker wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

Poorfour wrote:Leicester using Steward on the wing and Brown at 15 this weekend, I see. I can't imagine Sam will be too chuffed.

Various injuries forcing their hand basically with Guy Porter and Matt Scott both out.

Phil Cokanasiga has been absent through a combination of injury and being out of favour. He's really a specialist 12 who struggled defensively at 13 but looked good going forward. I hope he gets more chances but even if he is fit playing 13 against Ringrose isn't the moment!

Then winger wise. Murimurivalu is injured I think. Ashton has been a long way off last seasons performances this year. Saumaki hasn't been seen in yonks - electric in attack but very weak defensively. Which leaves the choice between Brown or Simmons once Potter moved to 13. Brown has been in fantastic form to be fair.

I could end up being massively wrong, but I don't think Cokanasiga is actually that good. He just never looked 100% confident for LI. A few lovely moments here and there, but a lot of dropped balls, bad options and missed defensive reads in with it. He's still young and has the athleticism to build on and bring things together, but despite a lot being made of it, I wasn't hugely concerned when he left.

In fact now I've said all that, he'll definitely be a breakout star next season...

He's only had 7 Prem starts despite breaking through so early. 13 is such a different position to 12 defensively, his one Prem start this season was at 13 against Sarries which is fairly brutal. He looked really good in attack early in the season. I hope to see more of him with Tigers just at 12 rather than 13. He's definitely a development player though. Contrary to the name which made some think he might already be more.

Poorfour wrote:Leicester using Steward on the wing and Brown at 15 this weekend, I see. I can't imagine Sam will be too chuffed.

As KC says we don't have a lot of choice. I'm certainly concerned about Steward defending on the wing on that wide pitch. I'm sure Leinster will be looking at isolating him and turning him with a one on one foot race with his opposite number. Hopefully Tigers can target the shorter O'Brien with some crossfield kicks and bring Steward off his wing as another strong carrier through the midfield.

king_carlos wrote:
He's only had 7 Prem starts despite breaking through so early. 13 is such a different position to 12 defensively, his one Prem start this season was at 13 against Sarries which is fairly brutal. He looked really good in attack early in the season. I hope to see more of him with Tigers just at 12 rather than 13. He's definitely a development player though. Contrary to the name which made some think he might already be more.

Yeah, he's absolutely got the big attacking moments in him. Scored some decent tries in the Prem Cup and on loan with Rosslyn Park in his time with us.

Centre at this level requires a rounded game though, that he doesn't seem to have just yet. Especially at 13 defensively, as you say. Seems a nice kid though, so hope he does prove me wrong.

Steward at 11 is just one number away from his eventual position as a future England great at 12.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Steward at 11 is just one number away from his eventual position as a future England great at 12.

Dan Kelly is playing at 12. The position he's going to be playing for England if he stays injury free.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Steward at 11 is just one number away from his eventual position as a future England great at 12.

Dan Kelly is playing at 12. The position he's going to be playing for England if he stays injury free.

Time will tell...he needs to get a run of games and some actual form first.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Steward at 11 is just one number away from his eventual position as a future England great at 12.

Dan Kelly is playing at 12. The position he's going to be playing for England if he stays injury free.

Time will tell...he needs to get a run of games and some actual form first.

You're not wrong. He only made his return from injury off the bench last weekend though he was impressive in that stint. Really killed off any chance for the Edinburgh attack to launch anything and they had looked good at the start of the second half. Leinster tonight is a really big challenge for him and a great chance to lay down a marker.

Heyes, Martin, JVP, Kelly, Steward all starting against the international ranked number 1 team (pretty much). Good experience for them. Be interesting to see if West and Cole can come off the bench and turn the screw at scrum time as Porter/Furlong tire or against the Leinster replacements. West really turned the scrum battle Vs Edinburgh, Cronin likes to scrummage a bit higher which gave Nel opportunities but West came on and took him low and completely out of the game at scrum time. The replacement tighthead de Bruin got taken backwards and he's a good prop as well.

Really like West...cracking prop.

So Jack Willis out of contention (signed an extended 3 year deal with Toulouse) if the rules stay as they are...

So Pearson replacing him?

You'd imagine a rule change announcement quite shortly as there's too many people moving abroad.

No 7&1/2 wrote:You'd imagine a rule change announcement quite shortly as there's too many people moving abroad.

Is there? Hasn't there only been Willis and Ribbans of any real note?

I'm not sure what rule could be brought in that would potentially cover these 2 tbh....

Agree Sgt...

Aside from Potentially Maro...theres only peripheral or past it players moving on....

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:You'd imagine a rule change announcement quite shortly as there's too many people moving abroad.

Is there? Hasn't there only been Willis and Ribbans of any real note?

I'm not sure what rule could be brought in that would potentially cover these 2 tbh....

And a few others like our first choice hooker. And more noises from Smith and itoje. Just can't see the status quo lasting.

LCD...ok a decent one...but i still think we need to replace all the hookers. LCD might have injury issues anyway.

Smith....i honestly dont actually worry if he goes. Talented player...but we have about 5/6 coming through who can really take that 10 spot. AND theres clearly something that both Jones AND Borthwick doesnt trust.

Itoje...again...im the odd one out...but hes replaceable.

New Zealander makes the case for Smith-Farrell.

Ill say it here...

10s
Ford
Farrell

12's
Farrell
Kelly

Billy Vunipola out for the season.

Geordie wrote:Ill say it here...

10s
Ford
Farrell

12's
Farrell
Kelly

That your prediction or your choice?
Farrell at 10 OK but never again at 12 for me.

I mean it's a sad state of affairs if we feel we can't go with our best 10 in Smith.

I still think ford is the best english 10, Smith may become the best in time

Watch the Sarries / LaRochelle game to see how poor Farrell can be

TJ wrote:I still think ford is the best english 10,  Smith may become the best in time

Watch the Sarries / LaRochelle game to see how poor Farrell can be

In his defence he was struggling behind a pack getting well beaten. 10 as ever going to be one of several positional issues for England. I've always been a big fan of Smith but he just hasn't delivered for England as we hoped. Ford I suspect might well be in camp for summer games then I guess we'll see for RWC.

mountain man wrote:

TJ wrote:I still think ford is the best english 10,  Smith may become the best in time

Watch the Sarries / LaRochelle game to see how poor Farrell can be

In his defence he was struggling behind a pack getting well beaten.  10 as ever going to be one of several positional issues for England. I've always been a big fan of Smith but he just hasn't delivered for England as we hoped. Ford I suspect might well be in camp for summer games then I guess we'll see for RWC.

La rochelle were blitzing in the centres.  There was space out wide and in behind.  From memory Farrell did not once chip over the top to utilize the space behind nor get the ball out to the wings quickly - the two ways of countering a centre blitz.  all he did was slowly shovel on Poopie. I remeber one miss pass out to the wing which did put the winger in space and made good yards

I mean i remember the 2012 new zealand game. Caryer was abject. Got picked off targeted and was dreadful. And on one game I will rate a player.

mountain man wrote:

Geordie wrote:Ill say it here...

10s
Ford
Farrell

12's
Farrell
Kelly

That your prediction or your choice?
Farrell at 10 OK but never again at 12 for me.

My prediction. Something just tells me Ford will be there (assuming hes fit) with Farrell as his 10s.... And SB will go with Farrell and Kelly as his 12 choice.

Farrell will be there at 10 or 12...

I still have the fear. But them I feared he wouldn't see how abject Youngs was. Granted it helped us lose to Scotland in how slow he was but he got there!

Oh Farrell will be there unless injured. That is problem with Borthwick naming him as captain, he's going to pick him whatever and if say Ford is in supreme form and gets into Eng team at 10 then by default Farrell likely to be 12 which is not great. I know Farrell was on bench against France(?) but can't see that in RWC.

Despite 13 being his usual position Lawrence was excellent at 12 and immediately showed there are better options there than Farrell.

mountain man wrote:Oh Farrell will be there unless injured. That is problem with Borthwick naming him as captain, he's going to pick him whatever and if say Ford is in supreme form and gets into Eng team at 10 then by default Farrell likely to be 12 which is not great. I know Farrell was on bench against France(?) but can't see that in RWC.

Despite 13 being his usual position Lawrence was excellent at 12 and immediately showed there are better options there than Farrell.

Most fans would agree with you....the interesting point is the number of top class coaches who work with these players...who ALL seem to disagree with us.

Geordie wrote:

mountain man wrote:Oh Farrell will be there unless injured. That is problem with Borthwick naming him as captain, he's going to pick him whatever and if say Ford is in supreme form and gets into Eng team at 10 then by default Farrell likely to be 12 which is not great. I know Farrell was on bench against France(?) but can't see that in RWC.

Despite 13 being his usual position Lawrence was excellent at 12 and immediately showed there are better options there than Farrell.

Most fans would agree with you....the interesting point is the number of top class coaches who work with these players...who ALL seem to disagree with us.

Fear of failure? Lawrence was of course not deemed good enough. Yet he was. Youngs was the steadfast but not good enough.

We go around the same set of arguments every time. I just think all we will get from Farrell is not losing by that many points. He just feels a bit time expired, and has done for a few years to be honest, however great he is in training.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

mountain man wrote:Oh Farrell will be there unless injured. That is problem with Borthwick naming him as captain, he's going to pick him whatever and if say Ford is in supreme form and gets into Eng team at 10 then by default Farrell likely to be 12 which is not great. I know Farrell was on bench against France(?) but can't see that in RWC.

Despite 13 being his usual position Lawrence was excellent at 12 and immediately showed there are better options there than Farrell.

Most fans would agree with you....the interesting point is the number of top class coaches who work with these players...who ALL seem to disagree with us.

Fear of failure? Lawrence was of course not deemed good enough. Yet he was. Youngs was the steadfast but not good enough.

Most probably.

I guess we will see what SB and Sinfield are made of come the initial squad announcement.

Lawrence has earned more chances but I'm not sure I'd say he was excellent. I certainly have worries that he doesn't have quite the power to worry better defences at international level.

His defence held up well at 12 which is a big plus but it is the easier centre slot to defend from these days. He was strong positionally, in the tackle and at the breakdown though. Certainly deserves more time but I am a touch sceptical if I'm being really honest. He'll never be a distributor or have much kicking game. I don't think he'd be the best defending the 13 channel at international level. Then as said I just don't quite think the top end power of someone like Danty or de Allende is there to trouble stronger defences. I have lingering concerns, which I'd love to be proved wrong about, that he's power runner who's underpowered at the top level basically.

I think Manu showed how much we'd missed some more power when he returned.

Charlie Ewels joining the Bulls short term to play in Currie Cup seemingly in an attempt to prove fitness for the RWC after returning earlier than expected. Bath have already signed injury cover so are presumably at the cap. Interestingly the Stormers wanted him too but couldn't raise the funds.

Just thought I'd pop that here on top of the Farrell at 12 conversations to make everyone happy.

lostinwales wrote:We go around the same set of arguments every time. I just think all we will get from Farrell is not losing by that many points. He just feels a bit time expired, and has done for a few years to be honest, however great he is in training.

As I have said before, Farrell seems very beat up, slow and not nimble as one would expect from an athlete.  My thought after watching him in a couple of Six Nations games was that he should not play the rest of the season and then see what shape he is in come the RWC training camps.  

That said, I expect Farrell will both be in the England squad and will still look like a player on the road to breaking down. And England will continue to lose but make a good fight of it.

king_carlos wrote:Lawrence has earned more chances but I'm not sure I'd say he was excellent. I certainly have worries that he doesn't have quite the power to worry better defences at international level.

His defence held up well at 12 which is a big plus but it is the easier centre slot to defend from these days. He was strong positionally, in the tackle and at the breakdown though. Certainly deserves more time but I am a touch sceptical if I'm being really honest. He'll never be a distributor or have much kicking game. I don't think he'd be the best defending the 13 channel at international level. Then as said I just don't quite think the top end power of someone like Danty or de Allende is there to trouble stronger defences. I have lingering concerns, which I'd love to be proved wrong about, that he's power runner who's underpowered at the top level basically.

I think Manu showed how much we'd missed some more power when he returned.

Did Many show anything really?

Manu nothing like player he was a few years and injuries ago. His weight loss to aid injury proneness(not a word but hey) has to my mind had a detrimental effect on his game. Nothing like as powerful in carry.

For me Lawrence was very good at 12 and immediately showed he can be effective there. As good as a prime Manu? No but who is.

king_carlos wrote:Lawrence has earned more chances but I'm not sure I'd say he was excellent. I certainly have worries that he doesn't have quite the power to worry better defences at international level.

His defence held up well at 12 which is a big plus but it is the easier centre slot to defend from these days. He was strong positionally, in the tackle and at the breakdown though. Certainly deserves more time but I am a touch sceptical if I'm being really honest. He'll never be a distributor or have much kicking game. I don't think he'd be the best defending the 13 channel at international level. Then as said I just don't quite think the top end power of someone like Danty or de Allende is there to trouble stronger defences. I have lingering concerns, which I'd love to be proved wrong about, that he's power runner who's underpowered at the top level basically.

I think Manu showed how much we'd missed some more power when he returned.

I think in his first "full stint" in the midfield he showed a lot of promise KC. We know he isnt Manu...but Theres not many Danty, De Allandes or Manus about...
He certainly looked more hopeful than many centres we've had previously.

Lawrence will have competition for that 12 spot with a clutch of about 3-5 young 12's coming through the prem now...so maybe 13 will be his best bet. And we will only know how his defence is there by watching him and seeing how he goes. Im sure Sinfield will be able to work with him on that aspect....and I genuinely hope he can adapt to the requirements of this level...

Who are the other options...Will Joseph?

No 7&1/2 wrote:...

Fear of failure? Lawrence was of course not deemed good enough. Yet he was. Youngs was the steadfast but not good enough.

It wasn't a stretch to say he wasn't good enough at the time. He is good enough now, which was a very pleasant surprise. There may be better though.

Gloucester coach George Skivington has had a long talk with Steve Borthwick about Ruan Ackermann & the feeling he got was that the Gloucester player is a who Borthwick is close to calling up.

Just read that Nick Evans will not be released by Harlequins to coach the offense for England in the RWC.  Not sure who Borthwick will look at but I think Wiggly would not be a good choice. Unless he has a very well hidden creative attacking gene, he could set back Rugby in England by 50 years.

doctor_grey wrote:Just read that Nick Evans will not be released by Harlequins to coach the offense for England in the RWC.  Not sure who Borthwick will look at but I think Wiggly would not be a good choice.  Unless he has a very well hidden creative attacking gene, he could set back Rugby in England by 50 years.

Following an early difficult period when Borthwick leaving left the squad in bits Wiggy has actually done a very good job at Tigers
The attacking game has improved and we're seeing offloads and angles. It's not the prettiest attack in the league but the Tigers rebuild job was a big one and a complete rebuild. I don't think Borthwick ever got close to finishing his plans for the team and with England it's similar.

Now Wiggy wouldn't be my first choice but he isn't going to be detrimental to what little we currently have. Now if Sam Vesty were to come in for the world cup that would be ideal but I doubt any of the clubs are going to let any coaches go and get the experience.

Nathan Hughes considering representing Fiji at the world cup as his stand down will be complete by then.

I honestly thought Hughes had already been in a Fiji squad for some reason. Makes sense for him and Fiji. I doubt they'd use him in the back row on choice. Yato, Botia, Tuisue, Mata, Kamikamica. Absolutely stacked. Maybe if he covers second row again though.

There's plenty of odd potential second comings thrown up by the new laws though. Parisse could technically play for Argentina now if he really wanted that international swan song! 

Tonga's squad is potential completely different with the new rules. Piutau, Folau, Fekitoa, Moala, Coleman, Fifita, Timani, Pulu, Fainga'anuku. They've got a potential 23 that could be danger zone after a decent RWC camp. It just adds to the pool of death with Ireland, SA and Scotland. God I feel for Romania at this tournament.

1.Fisi'hoi 2.Moli 3.Tameifuna 4.L Fifita 5.Coleman 6.F Fifita 7.Kapeli 8.Timani
9.Takalua 10.Havili 11.Fainga'anuku 12.Moala 13.Fekitoa 14.Piatua 15.Folau

16.Ngauamo 17.Koloamatangi 18.Tokalahi 19.Lousi 20.Talitui 21.Pulu 22.Mausia 23.Tuitavaki

Also Fetuli Paea, Solomone Kata and Hosea Saumaki to consider in the back three. Afusipa Tamoepeau in the centre - might actually push Moala out on merit. Steve Mafi at second row. Back row Solomone Funaki is doing good things for Moana Pasifika. Lock and back row Tanginoa Halaifonua is really rated at a improving Grenoble side as well to be fair.

yappysnap wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Lawrence has earned more chances but I'm not sure I'd say he was excellent. I certainly have worries that he doesn't have quite the power to worry better defences at international level.

His defence held up well at 12 which is a big plus but it is the easier centre slot to defend from these days. He was strong positionally, in the tackle and at the breakdown though. Certainly deserves more time but I am a touch sceptical if I'm being really honest. He'll never be a distributor or have much kicking game. I don't think he'd be the best defending the 13 channel at international level. Then as said I just don't quite think the top end power of someone like Danty or de Allende is there to trouble stronger defences. I have lingering concerns, which I'd love to be proved wrong about, that he's power runner who's underpowered at the top level basically.

I think Manu showed how much we'd missed some more power when he returned.

Did Many show anything really?

He actually competed well in contact which realistically we need more of our side to do.