England 2023 - Post 6N and beyond

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Continued......

I'm bit non plusses by Malins performance. Didn't do anything I wouldn't expect from a good winger. Didn't look threatening ball in hand. Dropped an easy pass. I'm interested to see what Radwan can do albeit in 2 scratch sides. He's still someone who would provide us with a razor sharp cutting edge.

Having watched the game yesterday you still picked Quirke? Two things there, one he regularly passed at the receiver's head which killed momentum a couple of times which was a shame as he clearly came on with the instruction to up the tempo (which he did) and he also clearly hurt his hand in the last few minutes and was lobbing one handed passes along the floor. He may well not be fit.

I'm not sure Farrell is the answer. Gus Warr was to quiet yesterday which was a shame as I thought it was a good chance for him to throw his hat in the ring. I'm not sure what side we'll start the world cup with but I'd like to see some of the following combinations tried in the friendlies.

Genge, George, Stuart
Martin, Itoje
T Curry, Mercer, Pearson
Warr, Ford
Kelly, Lawrence
Freeman, Steward, Watson

It may be that some of those don't work but I'd like to see something like that given a run out. All the backrow jump at the lineout which will help Borthwick's driving game, all the back three are good under the high ball, both wingers are good finishers and there's enough physicality in there to get us going over the gain line with more than a little guile as well.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm bit non plusses by Malins performance. Didn't do anything I wouldn't expect from a good winger. Didn't look threatening ball in hand. Dropped an easy pass. I'm interested to see what Radwan can do albeit in 2 scratch sides. He's still someone who would provide us with a razor sharp cutting edge.

If you didn't see that then you didn't want to. Carved open the defence with some nice runs on at least three occasions. Made a miserable day for Aaron Reed by giving him an absolute schooling in the air. I had Malins down as man of the match.

Doesn't mean I necessarily want him starting for England as much like Farrell I think he's great at club level but maybe lacking something for international level.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm bit non plusses by Malins performance. Didn't do anything I wouldn't expect from a good winger. Didn't look threatening ball in hand. Dropped an easy pass. I'm interested to see what Radwan can do albeit in 2 scratch sides. He's still someone who would provide us with a razor sharp cutting edge.

If you didn't see that then you didn't want to. Carved open the defence with some nice runs on at least three occasions. Made a miserable day for Aaron Reed by giving him an absolute schooling in the air. I had Malins down as man of the match.

Doesn't mean I necessarily want him starting for England as much like Farrell I think he's great at club level but maybe lacking something for international level.

Would love to see it. Saw him get it and kick get a lucky bounce and a bit lucky with the push. Saw him drop the ball. Saw him not back his pa e and cut inside. Roebuck looked the better winger.

Ford was pretty quiet yesterday wasn't he.

Barbarians v. 'Other Barbarians'.  Never know with these things but might be a fun watch.

edit: They must be doing this on the cheap - my stream has sound but no picture...

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm bit non plusses by Malins performance. Didn't do anything I wouldn't expect from a good winger. Didn't look threatening ball in hand. Dropped an easy pass. I'm interested to see what Radwan can do albeit in 2 scratch sides. He's still someone who would provide us with a razor sharp cutting edge.

If you didn't see that then you didn't want to. Carved open the defence with some nice runs on at least three occasions. Made a miserable day for Aaron Reed by giving him an absolute schooling in the air. I had Malins down as man of the match.

Doesn't mean I necessarily want him starting for England as much like Farrell I think he's great at club level but maybe lacking something for international level.

Would love to see it. Saw him get it and kick get a lucky bounce and a bit lucky with the push. Saw him drop the ball. Saw him not back his pa e and cut inside. Roebuck looked the better winger.

Ford was pretty quiet yesterday wasn't he.

Roebuck played well but was on the other side so had Maitland and then Daly who was very hit and miss. Taking Roebuck off was presumably injury related and if not was incredibly stupid. Sale definitely suffered with him going off.

Ford showed flashes but it felt like he was frustrated by Sale's inability to deliver. Two clean breaks for Manu (from a beauty of a pass from Ford) and Reed resulted in dropped/ripped balls which were kicked back for 50/22s and two well kicked pens deep into the Sarries 22 were lost at the lineout. It just felt that when they got momentum Sarries were able to shut it down. Duncan Taylor off the bench did a really good job racing out the line to shutdown Ford's passing outlet to the outside though he did show some neat footwork on those occasions to keep Sale going forward it was all a bit survival rather than actually hurting Sarries. Not the showing I was hoping for from him.

doctor_grey wrote:Barbarians v. 'Other Barbarians'.  Never know with these things but might be a fun watch.

edit:  They must be doing this on the cheap - my stream has sound but no picture...

One thing of note so far is how well Radwan is doing on defence, made some good one on one tackles. A couple of nice touches in attack.

As I was typing that Radwan makes a wonder tackle on Nkosi to deny a try.

Great to see Nic Dolly running around and looking solid as well, more than 12 months since his last Prem game after the horror clearout up at Falcons, Jack Willis esque style injury.

Just checked and the picture is back. Yes, it's halftime, but it's a shame to see the stadium pretty empty. Even more of a shame considering the weather seems perfect. Great weather for a nice afternoon out.

Great gobs of fungus, Batman. Who designed the jerseys for the World team?

Alex Waller in the Baabaas? Freakin' great. Such a great club man with Saints.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Barbarians v. 'Other Barbarians'.  Never know with these things but might be a fun watch.

edit:  They must be doing this on the cheap - my stream has sound but no picture...

One thing of note so far is how well Radwan is doing on defence, made some good one on one tackles. A couple of nice touches in attack.

As I was typing that Radwan makes a wonder tackle on Nkosi to deny a try.

Great to see Nic Dolly running around and looking solid as well, more than 12 months since his last Prem game after the horror clearout up at Falcons, Jack Willis esque style injury.

As I've argued with everyone repeatedly his actual tackling is good...if theres an issue maybe its his positioning. But not his actual one on one tackling.

Haven't seen the game but heard he played well..

I'm surprised at the number of calls for uncapped players to start in the warm ups. I would be really surprised if Borthwick takes anyone in his final squad who doesn't at least have a couple of caps against tier 1 opposition. The RWC is not the place to experiment, even with talented prospects, and Borthwick strikes me as too measured a coach to roll the dice unless forced

The calls have happened for a long time poor four not just due to one game.

Regardless of my bias as a falcon he SHOULD have been trialled previously...but the opportunity was missed...

Geordie wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Barbarians v. 'Other Barbarians'.  Never know with these things but might be a fun watch.

edit:  They must be doing this on the cheap - my stream has sound but no picture...

One thing of note so far is how well Radwan is doing on defence, made some good one on one tackles. A couple of nice touches in attack.

As I was typing that Radwan makes a wonder tackle on Nkosi to deny a try.

Great to see Nic Dolly running around and looking solid as well, more than 12 months since his last Prem game after the horror clearout up at Falcons, Jack Willis esque style injury.

As I've argued with everyone repeatedly his actual tackling is good...if theres an issue maybe its his positioning.  But not his actual one on one tackling.

Haven't seen the game but heard he played well..

I presumed it was his lack of a kicking game that was hurting his chances that and he isn't particularly dominant aerially. The boring tactical bits that need to be sharp for the international game. I suspect it's why we haven't seen Murley in but Malins keeps getting games.

That may be correct Sam...it definitely isn't his first go to option.

And yes Murley is another rhat definitely should have had a look in. Malins is a poor man's Daly.

Didn't catch Barbarians game as on road all day, any good and anyone particularly catch the eye?

Yeah after watching the Baa Baas Radwan has to be in the England squad for the world cup let alone the wider squad. Made a couple of mistakes just after half time but does things no other of our wings can.

Nice to hear Folau get booed too.

Tidy. I've been a fan of his and been calling for his inclusion previously. Definitely has the pace needed.

Radwan was great in a very odd game....he 100% should be involved somewhere, I would take him above Arundell on the bench.

Folau oozed class throughout, what a player he is. For all of the hype around Steward's skill in the air (I don't actually think he's as good as people suggest), Folau is just on a different planet. It's a shame we don't get to see much of him as he's a joy to watch on the rugby field.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm bit non plusses by Malins performance. Didn't do anything I wouldn't expect from a good winger. Didn't look threatening ball in hand. Dropped an easy pass. I'm interested to see what Radwan can do albeit in 2 scratch sides. He's still someone who would provide us with a razor sharp cutting edge.

You really don't like him do you.....

Even Malins toughest critics should be able to admit how good he was in that game.....he really was the standout in the backs (along with Farrell).

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm bit non plusses by Malins performance. Didn't do anything I wouldn't expect from a good winger. Didn't look threatening ball in hand. Dropped an easy pass. I'm interested to see what Radwan can do albeit in 2 scratch sides. He's still someone who would provide us with a razor sharp cutting edge.

You really don't like him do you.....

Even Malins toughest critics should be able to admit how good he was in that game.....he really was the standout in the backs (along with Farrell).

Hes fine. Decent player. Just not international class.

Not everything has to be about England.....sometimes we can just judge a player on the actual game he's playing. Malins had a fine game....as did Goode (who isn't Int class either).

Well fair enough. Its just in response to a suggestion about him for England on an England thread. If we're just talking about the game itself he was OK but the same issues I have with him as a winger show up but aren't as pronounced. He doesn't make good decisions 1 on 1, I don't feel if he gets the ball on the wing he's going to finish or cause real panic. Re the point that the issues don't show up as much when he got the ball wide this weekend he kicked through and scored a try...however the kick really was too long and he was too slow, he got away with it as Daly really is a bad defender and he managed to push someone just enough for them to lose balance but not enough for the tmo to properly think hmm. He doesn't scored that in many England games. He cut a nice line in the second half but that try is about Farrell being class.

Bar that he dropped an easy pass he should have taken, didn't cause issues with any of his kick chases.
To be fair in the second half on that break where again he didn't have the pace or footwork to finish he did crab and put in a great pass...but that still makes me think he's more of a fly half and not a top winger. So that's the detailed reasons of why I was a bit non plussed. I'd have roebuck ahead of him for England. I'd have daly ahead if him, and I'm not a huge Daly fan.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm bit non plusses by Malins performance. Didn't do anything I wouldn't expect from a good winger. Didn't look threatening ball in hand. Dropped an easy pass. I'm interested to see what Radwan can do albeit in 2 scratch sides. He's still someone who would provide us with a razor sharp cutting edge.

You really don't like him do you.....

Even Malins toughest critics should be able to admit how good he was in that game.....he really was the standout in the backs (along with Farrell).

With you on this. I thought Malins was really good, again. I agree with 7.5 that for England he hasn't always convinced but to be honest last few years not many have. You cannot deny Malins has been simply superb for Saracens.

This then comes around to how does Borthwick now pick his RWC squad. If he goes on club form Malins has to be in there. Picking on reputation of past is wrong and has back fired too many times under Jones.

Again, I'll emphasize I'm not saying personally I'd start him but I'd be suprised if Borthwick doesn't have him in 23.

As for Folau, totally agree about his rugby ability. He was always brilliant to watch even as an opposition fan.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah after watching the Baa Baas Radwan has to be in the England squad for the world cup let alone the wider squad. Made a couple of mistakes just after half time but does things no other of our wings can.

Nice to hear Folau get booed too.

Agree that Radwan does need to be in the England training squad.  This coaching staff needs to evaluate him for England because he offers something electric and different.  That said, one of his defensive mistakes led directly to a try, and was fairly basic.  So I am not convinced by any measure, but he has certainly earned his look.  Now, and this will help England, he has to take his chances.  I hope he does, but...

Regarding Folau, so frustrating.  Great player and had been fun to watch (especially against George North).  
That said, do intolerant people go to hell?

Only if you actually believe there is a heaven and hell. Most realise there's no such thing.

mountain man wrote:Only if you actually believe there is a heaven and hell. Most realise there's no such thing.

Well since some people still believe in heaven or hell, I have my pair of fire-proof pants just in case. But speaking metaphorically, if hell exists, it must be very big....

doctor_grey wrote:

mountain man wrote:Only if you actually believe there is a heaven and hell. Most realise there's no such thing.

Well since some people still believe in heaven or hell, I have my pair of fire-proof pants just in case.  But speaking metaphorically, if hell exists, it must be very big....      

Indeed and obviously after what I've just written I guess I must be heading there....

doctor_grey wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah after watching the Baa Baas Radwan has to be in the England squad for the world cup let alone the wider squad. Made a couple of mistakes just after half time but does things no other of our wings can.

Nice to hear Folau get booed too.

Agree that Radwan does need to be in the England training squad.  This coaching staff needs to evaluate him for England because he offers something electric and different.  That said, one of his defensive mistakes led directly to a try, and was fairly basic.  So I am not convinced by any measure, but he has certainly earned his look.  Now, and this will help England, he has to take his chances.  I hope he does, but...

Regarding Folau, so frustrating.  Great player and had been fun to watch (especially against George North).  
That said, do intolerant people go to hell?

Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

Both suggest so.

Even if you are intolerant at least have the good grace to keep your opinions to your self. Shame such a talented player doesn't have basic manners.

Yeah well I tried loving my neighbour but her husband got all upset.

Heaven exists. Its when Arundell picks the ball up from a pass on his own 5 metre line.

When is the preliminary England World Cup squad announced?

Mr Bounce wrote:When is the preliminary England World Cup squad announced?

No confirmation yet but with the first warm up games in just over 2 months and the camp due to start imminently I'd be surprised if it isn't this week.

70 players have already been contacted to tell them to be available if called upon which is standard practice and numbers for the RWC with England. The Lions contact a similar size player pool.

With the finals done there are no more games to take into consideration before selection anyway. Plus that initial squad will likely be around 45 players plus any injury cover which will then be steadily whittled down until the final 33-man squad is chosen.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Radwan was great in a very odd game....he 100% should be involved somewhere, I would take him above Arundell on the bench.

Folau oozed class throughout, what a player he is. For all of the hype around Steward's skill in the air (I don't actually think he's as good as people suggest), Folau is just on a different planet. It's a shame we don't get to see much of him as he's a joy to watch on the rugby field.

In all those recent games vs Australia Folau was just on another planet. He was the one guy guaranteed to give us a bad time. It is a healthy reminder that people are only very rarely all good or all bad and that all that talent can't hide the fact he has 'issues'.

Ireland have just released their squad, so think that makes us the last of the uk, Ireland teams? Must be imminent.

There's a lot of Theo Dan for England love among the pundits after this weekend. A couple had tipped him even before his performance in the final.

Harry Thacker also played well at the weekend and thoroughly enjoyed himself.

I would not be surprised to see him as a potential 3rd hooker either.

Rugby Fan wrote:There's a lot of Theo Dan for England love among the pundits after this weekend. A couple had tipped him even before his performance in the final.

He was brilliant on Saturday and couldn't really have done much more to forward his case for inclusion.

Not sure we're going to see any uncapped hookers at this point. Walker, Blamire and McGuigan were all in the 6N at various points. Jamie George is definitely going and then LCD all depends on whether he's fit or not.

Theo Dan looks a certainty for post world cup inclusion. Needs to work on his scrum work, the Sarries scrum started to suffer after he came on.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Theo Dan looks a certainty for post world cup inclusion. Needs to work on his scrum work, the Sarries scrum started to suffer after he came on.

Not a surprise really. Jamie George is a proper breezeblock of a scrummaging hooker, and difficult to move. Does he even have a neck? Dan will definitely be in the wider squad. I'm not yet convinced for the final lot though.

What’s the word on George’s fitness - I think he went off for a head injury but it was a straight replacement on the spot rather than an HIA so it must have been quite serious. There’s time for recovery but the time to recover from concussion can be very unpredictable. That could leave England without either of its experienced hookers. I still don’t expect that to open the door to an uncapped one, but it makes the situation more complex.

He was unsteady so bypassed any HIA need on the pitch. Don't think that means that any concussion is of greater severity than one which is initially more subtle though. There are still a couple of places where Borthwick would be better served just getting some minutes for people in the warm ups, while balancing the need to get some momentum. I'd like to see Blamire get some time but both Borthwick and Jones seemed to not like what they've seen, don't know what that is tbh. So then it's the likes of Dan and Dolly who need that time.

Mr Bounce wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Theo Dan looks a certainty for post world cup inclusion. Needs to work on his scrum work, the Sarries scrum started to suffer after he came on.

Not a surprise really. Jamie George is a proper breezeblock of a scrummaging hooker, and difficult to move. Does he even have a neck? Dan will definitely be in the wider squad. I'm not yet convinced for the final lot though.

Yeah George, LCD and Blamire are almost prop sized. Mobile as well.

There's a chance Theo Dan might make the training squad but it's far from a certainty.

Poorfour wrote:What’s the word on George’s fitness - I think he went off for a head injury but it was a straight replacement on the spot rather than an HIA so it must have been quite serious.

It's rare to know straight away. He now has to go through return-to-play protocols. In the best case, he's available at the earliest opportunity, with no ill effects. Sometimes, though, there are lingering symptoms. For instance, Lawes was concussed against Leicester on the 24th of September 2022, and his next game was off the bench on the 10th of December.

Avert your eyes from this point if you're a LI, Wasps or Wuss fan but will it be beneficial for England some players if they manage to secure themselves certain moves? I'm just imagining a backrow of hill pearson and barbeary regularly lining up? Etc.

Is that the line up for physiotherapy as Barbeary can't string 2 games together.

Such a good player. So unlucky how injury seems to follow some players around. Given how he was at wasps without that he'd surely be in the team already. But should he get a run of games with those 2 may help them all?

The only thing I can see improving young players preparation for international rugby is a massive improvement in the quality of the Premiership. I don't think a 10 team league and continued ringfencing will do that. As we've seen losing the threat of relegation just produces too many dud games with woeful defence and low physicality. Not a recipe to succeed at international level.

There are still high quality games but too few of them. Far more games fall into the bracket of high scoring but a low standard.

Hill, Pearson and Barbeary wearing the same shirt isn't going to improve their progression if the Prems quality remains where it is, sadly. The academies are producing talent but it's stalling due to lack of standards across all league games forcing them to keep improving.

Hmm. Not sure I agree still. The players are good enough. The coaches perhaps not.

KC has a good point.

Yes 7.5, they may be good enough....but if top players are playing at a lesser standard for a prolonged period, their levels are going to drop off. The Prem has been dropping off slowly in quality for a few years now and it's very much reflected in the national side.

This is obviously a loose point, but we've not had a team in the Champions Cup final since 2020....pretty much the last time England were any good.