English Domestic Rugby Ongoing

by Geordie Tue 04 Apr 2023, 7:52 am

This is a statement from the Coventry Rugby Chairman and was posted on the falcons forum as it seems to point towards a big shake up that affects Prem and Championship teams. The paragraph in the top right is the interesting part for other English teams....

Thought you might like to read it...and if you have any knowledge of the shake ups coming?

https://www.coventryrugby.co.uk/an-open-letter-from-executive-chairman-jon-sharp/

by Recwatcher16 Tue 04 Apr 2023, 8:29 am

Long overdue development to concentrate on English competitions rather than Europe and funding everyone else. The French have done it the right way, bottom up and now have a very strong D2 competition and wider exposure for fans and and players alike, which is the whole point of sport.
Domestic participation is far more important than external success - European and Test competitions can take care of themselves. Top down elitist structures are a house of cards.

The rumours of a ten team Premiership persist and 3/4 premiership standard sides in the Championship will inevitably raise standards and subsequent tv exposure will hopefully follow. It's a win win, although my team might be in the Championship on that basis.....!

by Geordie Tue 04 Apr 2023, 8:45 am

Recwatcher16 wrote:Long overdue development to concentrate on English competitions rather than Europe and funding everyone else. The French have done it the right way, bottom up and now have a very strong D2 competition and wider exposure for fans and and players alike, which is the whole point of sport.
Domestic participation is far more important than external success - European and Test competitions can take care of themselves. Top down elitist structures are a house of cards.

The rumours of a ten team Premiership persist and 3/4 premiership standard sides in the Championship will inevitably raise standards and subsequent tv exposure will hopefully follow. It's a win win, although my team might be in the Championship on that basis.....!

Both of ours...

But i agree a MASSIVE shake up is needed...

A cup competition including prem and champ sides would be interesting...maybe replace the A league which is badly missed.

by doctor_grey Tue 04 Apr 2023, 10:29 am

Geordie wrote:
Recwatcher16 wrote:Long overdue development to concentrate on English competitions rather than Europe and funding everyone else. The French have done it the right way, bottom up and now have a very strong D2 competition and wider exposure for fans and and players alike, which is the whole point of sport.
Domestic participation is far more important than external success - European and Test competitions can take care of themselves. Top down elitist structures are a house of cards.

The rumours of a ten team Premiership persist and 3/4 premiership standard sides in the Championship will inevitably raise standards and subsequent tv exposure will hopefully follow. It's a win win, although my team might be in the Championship on that basis.....!

Both of ours...

But i agree a MASSIVE shake up is needed...

A cup competition including prem and champ sides would be interesting...maybe replace the A league which is badly missed.

Absolutely agree about a cup competition. And more so for the A league, the impact of which I think was vastly under appreciated.

An added benefit of the A league was - prior to the pandemic - one could go to the Gardens on a Monday night for a tenner and watch some of the younger or fringe players have a good go. Very different atmosphere and good fun.

by Geordie Tue 04 Apr 2023, 10:32 am

Yeah the A league was a nice competition for the academy lads to mix with more senior players and injury recoveries to get match fit.

Shame it was taken away.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 04 Apr 2023, 11:35 am

And also the end of the following one on realignment of the leagues. Covid has provided some impetus towards what could be positive changes for both clubs (wider than just the prem) and the national team. A great opportunity for the RFU to come out of this looking good...

by Lowlandbrit Sat 15 Jul 2023, 8:49 am

Fixtures for the new cup competition are out, interesting (telling?) that the first two games picked for TV are Ealing v Northampton and Bath v Jersey (then all-Premiership ties the next two rounds).

by doctor_grey Sat 15 Jul 2023, 3:41 pm

Lowlandbrit wrote:Fixtures for the new cup competition are out, interesting (telling?) that the first two games picked for TV are Ealing v Northampton and Bath v Jersey (then all-Premiership ties the next two rounds).

I understand starting out with Saints on tv. We need the handsomist team playing first to potentially bring in non-Rugby types.

As the top two clubs in the Championship this past season, it makes sense to have Ealing and Jersey up first. But not sure I like the idea of all Premiership teams on tv when Championship clubs want and need tv exposure.

by formerly known as Sam Sun 16 Jul 2023, 10:43 am

doctor_grey wrote:
Lowlandbrit wrote:Fixtures for the new cup competition are out, interesting (telling?) that the first two games picked for TV are Ealing v Northampton and Bath v Jersey (then all-Premiership ties the next two rounds).
I understand starting out with Saints on tv. We need the handsomist team playing first to potentially bring in non-Rugby types.

As the top two clubs in the Championship this past season, it makes sense to have Ealing and Jersey up first. But not sure I like the idea of all Premiership teams on tv when Championship clubs want and need tv exposure.

Ealing are a pretty good team aren't they. Giving them a start against a porous defence but deadly attack should hopefully lead to a high scoring game.

I'd have preferred it if part of the televised deal was that at least one Championship side would be shown in a game every weekend.

by doctor_grey Mon 17 Jul 2023, 6:35 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:
Lowlandbrit wrote:Fixtures for the new cup competition are out, interesting (telling?) that the first two games picked for TV are Ealing v Northampton and Bath v Jersey (then all-Premiership ties the next two rounds).
I understand starting out with Saints on tv. We need the handsomist team playing first to potentially bring in non-Rugby types.

As the top two clubs in the Championship this past season, it makes sense to have Ealing and Jersey up first. But not sure I like the idea of all Premiership teams on tv when Championship clubs want and need tv exposure.

Ealing are a pretty good team aren't they. Giving them a start against a porous defence but deadly attack should hopefully lead to a high scoring game.

I'd have preferred it if part of the televised deal was that at least one Championship side would be shown in a game every weekend.

When it comes to Saints, nothing surprises me any more.

Is it just us, but why does it seem like so much common sense to give the Championship clubs the max tv exposure possible in this short cup competition?

by formerly known as Sam Mon 17 Jul 2023, 7:19 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:
Lowlandbrit wrote:Fixtures for the new cup competition are out, interesting (telling?) that the first two games picked for TV are Ealing v Northampton and Bath v Jersey (then all-Premiership ties the next two rounds).
I understand starting out with Saints on tv. We need the handsomist team playing first to potentially bring in non-Rugby types.

As the top two clubs in the Championship this past season, it makes sense to have Ealing and Jersey up first. But not sure I like the idea of all Premiership teams on tv when Championship clubs want and need tv exposure.

Ealing are a pretty good team aren't they. Giving them a start against a porous defence but deadly attack should hopefully lead to a high scoring game.

I'd have preferred it if part of the televised deal was that at least one Championship side would be shown in a game every weekend.
When it comes to Saints, nothing surprises me any more.

Is it just us, but why does it seem like so much common sense to give the Championship clubs the max tv exposure possible in this short cup competition?

If they want to launch Prem 2 in a couple of years time it might be an idea to big those Championship clubs up. You never know they might attract more or better sponsorship. Maybe even sell the league naming rights and television coverage.

by doctor_grey Tue 18 Jul 2023, 12:39 pm

The fixture list for the Premiership is out and the league shuts down completely for eight weeks during the Six Nations. I understand what compelled the Lords of Anarchy to do this, but don't agree. It seems bizarre beyond belief that a proper league will actually go into hibernation for two full months.

To me, a better approach would be to play the domestic-ish leagues from September to the Six Nations (starting in August in France?), the timing for which may have to move a bit, then do Europe. Or something like that. As currently configured, the clubs will have two pre-seasons in each season, and any excitement which may have built through the first two-thirds of the season will be lost and have to be re-established.

I know the leagues want their finals played in nice weather, but can't see a better solution.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/66216277

by Lowlandbrit Tue 18 Jul 2023, 4:19 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:I'd have preferred it if part of the televised deal was that at least one Championship side would be shown in a game every weekend.
Is it just us, but why does it seem like so much common sense to give the Championship clubs the max tv exposure possible in this short cup competition?

Could be a question of how competitive they really expect them to be here. Are there are enough romantics to justify Caldy v Sale or Hartpury v Gloucester over Harlequins v Saracens in round 4 for instance?

by broadlandboy Tue 18 Jul 2023, 5:30 pm

doctor_grey wrote:The fixture list for the Premiership is out and the league shuts down completely for eight weeks during the Six Nations. I understand what compelled the Lords of Anarchy to do this, but don't agree. It seems bizarre beyond belief that a proper league will actually go into hibernation for two full months.

To me, a better approach would be to play the domestic-ish leagues from September to the Six Nations (starting in August in France?), the timing for which may have to move a bit, then do Europe. Or something like that. As currently configured, the clubs will have two pre-seasons in each season, and any excitement which may have built through the first two-thirds of the season will be lost and have to be re-established.

I know the leagues want their finals played in nice weather, but can't see a better solution.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/66216277

Agree to a point but would clash with WC this year & Autumn Internationals which are big money earners. Better to have only one week break in the 6N reducing it to a 6week competition

by doctor_grey Tue 18 Jul 2023, 9:31 pm

broadlandboy wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:The fixture list for the Premiership is out and the league shuts down completely for eight weeks during the Six Nations. I understand what compelled the Lords of Anarchy to do this, but don't agree. It seems bizarre beyond belief that a proper league will actually go into hibernation for two full months.

To me, a better approach would be to play the domestic-ish leagues from September to the Six Nations (starting in August in France?), the timing for which may have to move a bit, then do Europe. Or something like that. As currently configured, the clubs will have two pre-seasons in each season, and any excitement which may have built through the first two-thirds of the season will be lost and have to be re-established.

I know the leagues want their finals played in nice weather, but can't see a better solution.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/66216277

Agree to a point but would clash with WC this year & Autumn Internationals which are big money earners. Better to have only one week break in the 6N reducing it to a 6week competition

I just can't help but think having two off-seasons in the same calendar year is not good for the players.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 24 Jul 2023, 8:12 am

I'm scratching my head a bit as to why holding the Bristol Gloucester game at the Principality is a good thing for Bristol?

by carpet baboon Mon 24 Jul 2023, 4:47 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm scratching my head a bit as to why holding the Bristol Gloucester game at the Principality is a good thing for Bristol?

Ahh you see it's all a plan, the plan is going ahead, it's a good plan, everyone wins bigly, everyone, like you could never imagine, big big plan, beautiful plan, when it was said everyone agreed it's a good plan, great plan.

Bristol couldn't be happier, they cried when they heard the plan, it's a great plan, Bristol, tears of joy from big big men, and the children, all clapping.

Gloucester, they were so so happy, they couldn't believe someone came up with this plan, great plan, brilliant plan.

It's all in the plan

by Lowlandbrit Sat 09 Sep 2023, 5:37 pm

Premiership Rugby Cup underway for those not in France. Ironically, the biggest mismatch so far is Exeter v Bristol (75-0!). Saracens trailing Coventry with ten minutes to go, in what could be the first upset.

by formerly known as Sam Sat 09 Sep 2023, 6:11 pm

Bristol played the Baabaas midweek so sent a mainly development side to play Chiefs who picked pretty much a first team. 75-0 is probably Bristol getting off light.

by Welshmushroom Sun 10 Sep 2023, 2:06 pm

Aside from Exeter a lot of those Prem sides look like youth teams mostly. Not sure how much this actually will benefit Premiership rugby.

The biggest issue facing English Rugby is the standard they are playing at in the Premiership. They will only get better by playing the best players and sadly English rugby is losing that battle to Japan and France for the best overseas players. I think a 10 team league was a positive move but fear it didn't go far enough. I actually think England probably can only support 5 or 6 teams if they were filled with English players. That's just in terms of playing talent.

by Lowlandbrit Sun 10 Sep 2023, 5:26 pm

Due to a quirk in the format caused by the missing Prem teams, Exeter and Bristol aren't actually in the same pool. Just the 4 pool winners going straight to the semi-finals, so teams that want to lift the trophy are going to have to take (at least) the key matches somewhat seriously.

by formerly known as Sam Sun 10 Sep 2023, 6:43 pm

Welshmushroom wrote:Aside from Exeter a lot of those Prem sides look like youth teams mostly. Not sure how much this actually will benefit Premiership rugby.

The biggest issue facing English Rugby is the standard they are playing at in the Premiership. They will only get better by playing the best players and sadly English rugby is losing that battle to Japan and France for the best overseas players. I think a 10 team league was a positive move but fear it didn't go far enough. I actually think England probably can only support 5 or 6 teams if they were filled with English players. That's just in terms of playing talent.

Depends how the remaining clubs recover from COVID. If the clubs can come back to financial stability then the cap may rise slightly again. For a team that can't attract the best talent Russell, Ford, Farrell, Smith and Pollard will all be lining up at flyhalf next season. There's additional international flyhalfs in the league on top of that as well. It's similar for other positions. There's still talent but not as much as there used to be.

This competition is actually a brilliant idea and is finally giving the Championship some exposure.

by Lowlandbrit Sun 17 Sep 2023, 4:43 pm

After the second round the shape of things is pretty clear:
Pool D Ealing have beaten both the Premiership sides, although they still face a tricky cross-pool game with Jersey, and should make the SF.
Pool C Jersey and Exeter are both taking it seriously, and meet next Saturday. That Jersey v Ealing game means Exeter would still have a chance if they lost.
Pool B Premiership sides on top, Sale lost to Leicester and play Newcastle next, so Falcons v Tigers on the 30th could be a SF playoff.
Pool A Coventry have been the surprise package, beating Saracens and drawing with Harlequins. Gloucester are in the driving seat, they play Quins next and Coventry at the end.

by Lowlandbrit Sun 24 Sep 2023, 4:42 pm

In the two key matches this week; Jersey weren't able to match Exeter (22-43), and Ealing surprisingly needed a late penalty to beat early pool leaders Doncaster (34-32). Doncaster could still go through if they can beat Bristol and Northampton (who met in a 39-38 win for Bristol), and Ealing lose to Jersey.
Next week sees Newcastle and Leicester meet on 14 points each, with a Champ side to finish up against, for a winner takes all match. As the tv games for the first 4 rounds were picked before the start of the tournament, it'll be the meaningless Quins v Sarries game live on TNT.

by Welshmushroom Tue 26 Sep 2023, 9:06 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Welshmushroom wrote:Aside from Exeter a lot of those Prem sides look like youth teams mostly. Not sure how much this actually will benefit Premiership rugby.

The biggest issue facing English Rugby is the standard they are playing at in the Premiership. They will only get better by playing the best players and sadly English rugby is losing that battle to Japan and France for the best overseas players. I think a 10 team league was a positive move but fear it didn't go far enough. I actually think England probably can only support 5 or 6 teams if they were filled with English players. That's just in terms of playing talent.

Depends how the remaining clubs recover from COVID. If the clubs can come back to financial stability then the cap may rise slightly again. For a team that can't attract the best talent Russell, Ford, Farrell, Smith and Pollard will all be lining up at flyhalf next season. There's additional international flyhalfs in the league on top of that as well. It's similar for other positions. There's still talent but not as much as there used to be.

This competition is actually a brilliant idea and is finally giving the Championship some exposure.

On the premise I don't disagree that it could be a good competition. The issue for me is the Championship doesn't have enough professional teams in it. Talk is a few more will be going part time by the end of this season. That will only leave 2-3 teams with actual full time pro's. I don't think playing semi amateur teams doesn't do anything for anyone involved.

I suspect part of the thinking here was that they could keep the amount of games played high so season ticket prices didn't have to be lowered. I'm assuming here season ticket prices for this year didn't reduce from last year but I'm not sure about this. Anyone know in England if your season ticket prices for Premiership clubs were reduced or have these stayed the same from last year?

by formerly known as Sam Wed 27 Sep 2023, 9:28 am

Welshmushroom wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
Welshmushroom wrote:Aside from Exeter a lot of those Prem sides look like youth teams mostly. Not sure how much this actually will benefit Premiership rugby.

The biggest issue facing English Rugby is the standard they are playing at in the Premiership. They will only get better by playing the best players and sadly English rugby is losing that battle to Japan and France for the best overseas players. I think a 10 team league was a positive move but fear it didn't go far enough. I actually think England probably can only support 5 or 6 teams if they were filled with English players. That's just in terms of playing talent.

Depends how the remaining clubs recover from COVID. If the clubs can come back to financial stability then the cap may rise slightly again. For a team that can't attract the best talent Russell, Ford, Farrell, Smith and Pollard will all be lining up at flyhalf next season. There's additional international flyhalfs in the league on top of that as well. It's similar for other positions. There's still talent but not as much as there used to be.

This competition is actually a brilliant idea and is finally giving the Championship some exposure.

On the premise I don't disagree that it could be a good competition. The issue for me is the Championship doesn't have enough professional teams in it. Talk is a few more will be going part time by the end of this season. That will only leave 2-3 teams with actual full time pro's. I don't think playing semi amateur teams doesn't do anything for anyone involved.

I suspect part of the thinking here was that they could keep the amount of games played high so season ticket prices didn't have to be lowered. I'm assuming here season ticket prices for this year didn't reduce from last year but I'm not sure about this. Anyone know in England if your season ticket prices for Premiership clubs were reduced or have these stayed the same from last year?

I haven't heard anymore talk of teams going part time. The ones that have generally been struggling have either already gone part time or have partnered with Prem teams who agree to fill out their squads with development players if and when needed. Bedford with Saints and Notts with Tigers for instance.

Doncaster, Jersey and Ealing all seem pretty set financially and are pretty ambitious. Ampthill are a little bit of a halfway house.

The RFU has already cut Championship funding to the bone and the lack of decent television coverage of the new tournament won't have helped as much as it might have done. Still the Championship clubs have had some decent crowds for the Cup Comp and that is good for their finances.

by Geordie Thu 28 Sep 2023, 10:09 am

Have Jersey gone in to Administration now?

by **Rugby Fan** Thu 28 Sep 2023, 11:28 am

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2023/09/28/jersey-reds-to-go-into-administration-players-salaries/

Jersey Reds, the winners of the Championship last season, are set to become the latest English rugby club to go bust.

The news was confirmed in a statement on Thursday morning after a shock meeting among players and staff at 7.30am, where it was explained that salaries for September could not be paid this week.

A press release explained that the organisation had ceased to trade on Wednesday evening and that “liquidation appears inevitable unless a solution can be found in the very short term”. It also took aim at ongoing uncertainty around the structuring of the professional game in England.

“We had been able to start the season and maintain sufficient funds to cover the summer, but regret that our conversations with potential new investors as well as existing ones have been unsuccessful,” said Jersey chairman Mark Morgan.

“At one stage at the end of last season it appeared there was a viable way forward for the second tier once the new professional game agreement (PGA) was implemented from summer 2024, but Championship clubs have been left in the dark since that point and this led to a growing fatigue among those who may have invested, but could not be given any concrete assurance about when the new structure would come in, or how it would be funded.”

The news represents another bitter blow to the sport after last season saw the collapses of Worcester Warriors, Wasps and London Irish.

Jersey held off Ealing Trailfinders to finish top of the second tier for the 2022-23 campaign and landed a statement result at the start of this campaign by beating Bath 34-10 in the Premiership Rugby Cup.

While they could not win promotion to the Premiership for this season because their facilities did not meet the competition’s minimum standards, the achievement was still a significant one for a club that has progressed over the past decade under the stewardship of Harvey Biljon.

Indeed, it was hoped that the club could use that as a platform to push on. Even had they not managed to repeat their first-place finish, Jersey will have been integral to plans for a strong second tier under the PGA, which have mooted two top divisions labelled as Premiership A and Premiership B.

Telegraph Sport understands that Jersey players are already being offered around to other clubs, in scenes reminiscent of developments at Worcester, Wasps and London Irish over the past few months.

Biljon’s team had been due to continue their Premiership Rugby Cup schedule by facing Cornish Pirates on Friday night before taking on Ealing on October 6. Those fixtures will not be fulfilled and it now appears as though the Championship schedule will need to be drawn up without Jersey involved.

Sources have indicated that the extent of their financial plight came as a shock to staff when the situation was laid bare on Thursday morning.

In 2022, Jersey separated the amateur arm of the club from its professional one in order to safeguard the organisation, a move that Morgan believes has been vindicated.

“There are a large number of players, coaches and other members of staff who have made huge contributions to the club in recent seasons, and we regret the massive effect this will have on all of them – it’s a very sad day,” he said.

by formerly known as Sam Thu 28 Sep 2023, 12:13 pm

Well that came from left field. They were going great guns last season and in the Prem Cup. Sounds like they thought they had the additional funding incoming but it didn't materialise.

Also sounds like the lack of concrete RFU plans and funding for next season were a factor. For that the RFU should be ashamed, how we don't know what next season will look like or the levels of funding now is ridiculous.

by Lowlandbrit Thu 28 Sep 2023, 4:54 pm

Timing is really strange, how did nobody seem to know anything was wrong until this soon before the league is due to start? End of the month too, just a horrible way to treat the players.

by doctor_grey Fri 29 Sep 2023, 5:12 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:Well that came from left field. They were going great guns last season and in the Prem Cup. Sounds like they thought they had the additional funding incoming but it didn't materialise.

Also sounds like the lack of concrete RFU plans and funding for next season were a factor. For that the RFU should be ashamed, how we don't know what next season will look like or the levels of funding now is ridiculous.

There are really no words to say, but I think you summed this up perfectly. This is shocking. Given the loss of the three Premiership sides, was anyone paying attention to business?

by Welshmushroom Fri 29 Sep 2023, 4:30 pm

To be fair to the Union here they did clearly communicate to the National Leagues what funding they would get ages ago having reduced the funding by a lot. Now granted a lot of noise was coming from there in terms of future funding but given they knew what they currently get I don't understand how you can lay the blame on the RFU. If you spend more than you have you are not viable as a business.

What really needs to happen in rugby is clubs need to start living within their means. Even French rugby audits and makes sure all clubs at all levels only spend within the regulations set out by them. From what I can tell in English rugby clubs have no restrictions. That is where I think the RFU's biggest failure has occurred.

by doctor_grey Fri 29 Sep 2023, 11:39 pm

Welshmushroom wrote:To be fair to the Union here they did clearly communicate to the National Leagues what funding they would get ages ago having reduced the funding by a lot. Now granted a lot of noise was coming from there in terms of future funding but given they knew what they currently get I don't understand how you can lay the blame on the RFU. If you spend more than you have you are not viable as a business.

What really needs to happen in rugby is clubs need to start living within their means. Even French rugby audits and makes sure all clubs at all levels only spend within the regulations set out by them. From what I can tell in English rugby clubs have no restrictions. That is where I think the RFU's biggest failure has occurred.

The RFU and their current management have now presided over the collapse of four Rugby clubs. How many more before the management team is fired?

Excerpts from The Times (yesterday, 28 September):
Simon Halliday, chairman of Championship Rugby, said he had warned the RFU repeatedly that Jersey were at risk of becoming the next club to go bust.

“I have warned them formally about the risks of investors losing their enthusiasm and I have particularly referenced Jersey on a number of occasions,” Halliday said. “Those warnings have clearly been ignored because here is what has happened. The board [of the RFU] are going to have a rough time justifying what has happened here because they have been warned multiple times.”

Mark Morgan, the Jersey chairman, said that the failure of the RFU and Premiership Rugby to agree on a new structure for the struggling professional game had played a part in their investors’ decision to withdraw.

An RFU Council meeting will be held on Friday in which a letter will be discussed that has been signed by 30 of the 65 council members accusing the RFU executive, in particular Bill Sweeney, the chief executive, and Tom Ilube, the chairman, of “insufficient leadership”.

In response to suggestions that they had ignored warnings about Jersey and left Championship clubs out of the loop, the RFU said in a statement: “There have been regular meetings with representatives from the Championship executive. We have been openly discussing the strategy and direction of the professional game partnership; including the delivery of the Premiership Rugby Cup involving Championship clubs and the discussions around the creation of Premiership 2.”

This comment drew a sharp response from the Championship clubs, who released a statement of their own: “Anyone who loves rugby should listen very carefully to the message being sent by the investors in Jersey Reds that persistent uncertainty over central financial support has made it impossible for them to carry on. In essence, they have said: ‘If the governing body won’t commit to you, why should we?’ The RFU has been repeatedly warned that the government of Jersey was concerned at the lack of financial commitment to the league in which the Reds played.

by Welshmushroom Sat 30 Sep 2023, 10:35 am

I get the point clubs are trying to make. But given they knew their budgets why on earth did they spend beyond their means. I understand in some case wealthy owners invest heavily but those are rare. Even then you will be at the mercy of charity once those benefactors decide to move on.

I actually think this real issue is a lack of regulations for clubs by the RFU. Some easy steps would be to not exceed limits based on income. Total Playing Squad can't exceed 60% of annual income. 20% on staff then maybe 15% operation cost such as paying the bills etc, with the last 5% as a facilities/development fund or emergency fund. Granted I'm just throwing numbers out and the actual percentage would no doubt have to be different depending on each tier of league.

At the end of the day national league clubs shouldn't be breaking the business models to try to buy their way into the Premiership. To be fair to the national league clubs though I also would have made sure all clubs have equal spends or some sort of salary restrictions to make sure it stays even.

It's the lack direction and rules that the RFU really have let clubs down with. As for those overspending. Accept your own mistakes as well as no one forced these clubs to go and spend beyond their means.

by formerly known as Sam Sat 30 Sep 2023, 1:56 pm

As of next season the league structure isn't set. There's no sponsor for the Championship, no television deal, the clubs don't know how many games they will play, how much the RFU will give them and whether there will be promotion (including what the criteria will be).

Jersey had investors until last week that were interested in investing more. Next season is less than 12 months away. How are Championship clubs supposed to plan when you can't budget. Jersey had an average salary of £25k for their playing staff, it's not exactly a life of riches.

Covid has been ruinous for most rugby clubs. All have had cash injections via loans and I'd imagine most have had capital injections from owners (most aren't PLCs so don't have to declare these publicly). Tigers who are a PLC had to have an injection of funds last Autumn. The government Covid loans came repayable before clubs had recovered and that did for LI and Wasps (partly Wuss as well).

by Lowlandbrit Sat 30 Sep 2023, 3:14 pm

On the field, meanwhile; Bristol ended Doncaster's run, but a score of 41-57 is another sign that Doncaster have taken a pretty big step forward.

Update:
Ealing, Leicester, and Exeter (I think, depending on what they do with the Jersey games) are through to the SF in February. Gloucester need to not lose to Coventry next week to join them.

by Lowlandbrit Sun 08 Oct 2023, 7:30 am

If I've understood the setup properly, the semi-finals will be Ealing v Leicester and Gloucester v Exeter. Thanks to Leicester and Exeter putting out weaker sides this week and losing to Bedford and Bath, Ealing are the top ranked team (assuming they get 5pts for the Jersey game), and would host the final if they make it...

by Welshmushroom Mon 09 Oct 2023, 11:01 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:As of next season the league structure isn't set. There's no sponsor for the Championship, no television deal, the clubs don't know how many games they will play, how much the RFU will give them and whether there will be promotion (including what the criteria will be).

Jersey had investors until last week that were interested in investing more. Next season is less than 12 months away. How are Championship clubs supposed to plan when you can't budget. Jersey had an average salary of £25k for their playing staff, it's not exactly a life of riches.

Covid has been ruinous for most rugby clubs. All have had cash injections via loans and I'd imagine most have had capital injections from owners (most aren't PLCs so don't have to declare these publicly). Tigers who are a PLC had to have an injection of funds last Autumn. The government Covid loans came repayable before clubs had recovered and that did for LI and Wasps (partly Wuss as well).

But I would say given the state of club rugby in England, is it really viable for the National League to be even semi professional? If the league is not sustainable without RFU funding, then is it even viable? Look we have had similar issues in Wales. The WRU for example are pumping 12 million into the semi pro tier in Wales. Without that funding it would be totally amateur. Is that the best way for Wales to spend that money? Very doubtful given so few players in that league will ever make it to URC level.

England have much bigger issues at club level. The Premiership in my opinion has serious problems to deal with in the coming years. There will probably be even less money generated when the next TV contracts are negotiated. I suspect things will get worse before they get better with club rugby in England.

by formerly known as Sam Mon 09 Oct 2023, 12:02 pm

Welshmushroom wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:As of next season the league structure isn't set. There's no sponsor for the Championship, no television deal, the clubs don't know how many games they will play, how much the RFU will give them and whether there will be promotion (including what the criteria will be).

Jersey had investors until last week that were interested in investing more. Next season is less than 12 months away. How are Championship clubs supposed to plan when you can't budget. Jersey had an average salary of £25k for their playing staff, it's not exactly a life of riches.

Covid has been ruinous for most rugby clubs. All have had cash injections via loans and I'd imagine most have had capital injections from owners (most aren't PLCs so don't have to declare these publicly). Tigers who are a PLC had to have an injection of funds last Autumn. The government Covid loans came repayable before clubs had recovered and that did for LI and Wasps (partly Wuss as well).

But I would say given the state of club rugby in England, is it really viable for the National League to be even semi professional? If the league is not sustainable without RFU funding, then is it even viable? Look we have had similar issues in Wales. The WRU for example are pumping 12 million into the semi pro tier in Wales. Without that funding it would be totally amateur. Is that the best way for Wales to spend that money? Very doubtful given so few players in that league will ever make it to URC level.

England have much bigger issues at club level. The Premiership in my opinion has serious problems to deal with in the coming years. There will probably be even less money generated when the next TV contracts are negotiated. I suspect things will get worse before they get better with club rugby in England.

Yeah very much likely to get worse as the salary cap is due to go up as the clubs with the wealthy backers are blocking the other clubs from voting to keep it where it is. Bath and Sarries leading the charge in that area. TV coverage as you say is a tough one as well though with Amazon buzzing around potentially a new partner could be on the table for some of the coverage.

The Championship is barely funded currently. £150k per team per year but it is essential. If you look at the England national team, which is the RFU's cash cow then you'll find a number of the players will have played some Championship rugby to help their development and a semi pro Championship makes the quality lower and the standard to players development then lower. It also improves the leagues below as players filter down or work their way up (instead of giving up). Getting some basic TV coverage (giving the rights away for free would be better than nothing) and a league sponsor would go a long way to helping the Championship Clubs.

The starting XV from the weekend and their Championship experience;

Genge - Bristol
George -
Cole - Bedford
Chessum - Notts
Itoje -
Lawes - (no Champ experience but did play league 1 Esher)
Curry - (no Championship experience but did play for Sale FC)
Earl -
Mitchell - Moseley
Ford - Leeds
May - Moseley
Farrell - Bedford
Manu -
Marchant - London Scottish
Steward - Ampthill

by dummy_half Mon 09 Oct 2023, 12:35 pm

Looking back at the issue with Jersey, they had an agreement with the Government of Jersey for a decent amount of money (£350K) if they could obtain something like the same amount of outside investment. Failing to secure the external investment (which was not helped by the uncertainty within the RFU) meant that the GoJ withdrew their part of the finding at very short notice (apparently GoJ were sending messages to someone at Jersey Reds RFC, which is the amateur team, rather than with Jersey Reds (Trading) Ltd, which was the professional club owners).

by No 7&1/2 Fri 13 Oct 2023, 2:16 pm

Willis start at 8.First game for Mercer with Glaws. Then Fisilau at Exeter. No sign of Cunningham-South, but he would be below Dombrandt anyway. So plenty to keep you interested if you have hope of Borthwick picking an actual 8 in the future.

And Hartley at 12 for Saracens.

by king_carlos Fri 13 Oct 2023, 8:44 pm

Ouch. Just got in and checked the score to see Tigers 22-0 down.

When the teams got released I honestly thought Tigers looked stronger given the respective absentees. My feeling was the Bristol backs and back row looked strong but Tigers had better depth in the tight five. It seems that a McKellar sides first outing in the Prem has been fairly dismal so far though.

Tigers do have some quality on the bench. Shillcock in particular I think is a cracking player. Hatherell can add some punch. Dolly is an international. I rate Whitcombe higher than van Wyk too. They'll need a couple of scores early for this not to get ugly.

I'm not sure if I'm looking forward to the second half or not. I'm certainly not looking forward to watching the first half back!

by king_carlos Fri 13 Oct 2023, 9:22 pm

Shillcock and Hatherell have been good since coming on. Whiteley has been better than Powell but it sounds like that's not saying much. That's about as much as I can say.

The lineout, once a strength, is truly atrocious. In attack and defence.

by king_carlos Fri 13 Oct 2023, 9:38 pm

The first half was terrible. The lineout was a shambles in attack and defence. The scrum was up and down. The discipline contained some absurd lapses.

On the good side. Shillcock and Hatherell played big roles in transforming things. Shillcock could be signing of the season. He's a terrific player at 10 or 15. He added so much control and direction after Atkinson had a bit of a howler. Hatherell added a lot of physicality and go forward. Which is what we need from him.

A very disappointing night. Failing to get the LBP at the end with multiple scrums and lineouts in the Bristol 22 summed up the frustration. They did prevent Bristol getting the TBP at least which felt nailed on at halftime.

It's impossible to predict any sort of side for next weekend until we know which players will be returning. We could have one of Montoya or Reffell though which is huge given the lack of direction in the first half. Shillcock and Hatherell should start though.

by Geordie Fri 13 Oct 2023, 10:00 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Willis start at 8.First game for Mercer with Glaws. Then Fisilau at Exeter. No sign of Cunningham-South, but he would be below Dombrandt anyway. So plenty to keep you interested if you have hope of Borthwick picking an actual 8 in the future.

And Hartley at 12 for Saracens.

That's one i really have high hopes for...let's see if he can actually fulfil his potential...surely he's ar a great club to do rhat. Ditto for Tom Willis...

by Heaf Sat 14 Oct 2023, 12:22 am

king_carlos wrote:The first half was terrible. The lineout was a shambles in attack and defence. The scrum was up and down. The discipline contained some absurd lapses.

On the good side. Shillcock and Hatherell played big roles in transforming things. Shillcock could be signing of the season. He's a terrific player at 10 or 15. He added so much control and direction after Atkinson had a bit of a howler. Hatherell added a lot of physicality and go forward. Which is what we need from him.

A very disappointing night. Failing to get the LBP at the end with multiple scrums and lineouts in the Bristol 22 summed up the frustration. They did prevent Bristol getting the TBP at least which felt nailed on at halftime.

It's impossible to predict any sort of side for next weekend until we know which players will be returning. We could have one of Montoya or Reffell though which is huge given the lack of direction in the first half. Shillcock and Hatherell should start though.

On the plus side though - 2 points for me on Superbru Wink

by Kingshu Wed 18 Oct 2023, 10:52 pm

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/sport/rugbyleague/british-and-irish-super-league-plan-discussed-and-could-include-south-africa-and-italy/ar-AA1isnQl?ocid=socialshare&cvid=ed7eedbf6d2145c78c20eb961c6767e8&ei=21

by LeinsterFan4life Thu 19 Oct 2023, 7:51 am

Kingshu wrote:https://www.msn.com/en-gb/sport/rugbyleague/british-and-irish-super-league-plan-discussed-and-could-include-south-africa-and-italy/ar-AA1isnQl?ocid=socialshare&cvid=ed7eedbf6d2145c78c20eb961c6767e8&ei=21

Why would the URC go into bed with people who have destroyed both their own domestic league and the European cup? Seems like suicide.

by No 7&1/2 Thu 19 Oct 2023, 7:56 am

Let your irrational dislike of the English go. You'll feel better.

by Welshmushroom Thu 19 Oct 2023, 9:17 am

I actually think this wouldn't have been a bad move in the long term but from a URC perspective 10 English Teams are to many. In reality English rugby can probably only really afford 6 Pro teams at max.

Would be hard to really to see how a 26 team league could work. I think accepting all 10 clubs would be a mistake for URC rugby in the long term.

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