English Domestic Rugby Ongoing

First topic message reminder :

This is a statement from the Coventry Rugby Chairman and was posted on the falcons forum as it seems to point towards a big shake up that affects Prem and Championship teams. The paragraph in the top right is the interesting part for other English teams....

Thought you might like to read it...and if you have any knowledge of the shake ups coming?

https://www.coventryrugby.co.uk/an-open-letter-from-executive-chairman-jon-sharp/

He's got another season to reset his attitude and work his way into the England squad or take the cash and go back to France. I'm guessing it'll be option B but would be nice for him to have a crack at option A.

formerly known as Sam wrote:He's got another season to reset his attitude and work his way into the England squad or take the cash and go back to France. I'm guessing it'll be option B but would be nice for him to have a crack at option A.

It would, but he'll probably need to adapt his playing style; I think he worked well in France where he could rely on there being a heavy duty pack around him. English packs at the moment - even the International one - are skewing towards being lighter and more mobile, and in that context I think Mercer lacks impact compared to the closest like for like player in Earl (who I had my doubts about at 8, but has won me over in the past 12 months).

Quins sign Rodrigo Isgro from Argentina 7s. I'm slightly surprised we feel the need for a new winger given the stocks in the squad and Academy, but the timing suggests that Quins may have felt he'd be an immediate fit to the team.

It also makes it pretty much certain that the replacement for Andre Esterhuzen will be an internal promotion. Lennox Anyanwu has played at 12 in all the preseason activity I've seen, though there is still some noise around Northmore moving there (not a good use of him, in my view) or Hayden Hyde or Bryn Bradley coming through from the Academy (Hyde has been promoted to the seniors this season, while Bradely still has time to go in the Academy).

Kerr is a classy operator, could be Quins end up going a different route with the style of 12 they select. What do reckon PoorFour to early for him?

formerly known as Sam wrote:Kerr is a classy operator, could be Quins end up going a different route with the style of 12 they select. What do reckon PoorFour to early for him?

Years too early. He's got huge potential but he's a 19 year old with a lot of growing and physical development to do. Putting him in too early runs a high risk of wrecking him.

Poorfour wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Kerr is a classy operator, could be Quins end up going a different route with the style of 12 they select. What do reckon PoorFour to early for him?

Years too early. He's got huge potential but he's a 19 year old with a lot of growing and physical development to do. Putting him in too early runs a high risk of wrecking him.

Has largely worked with Marcus Smith...

Drip feed Kerr in over time and he could answer the issue for Quins.

[quote="formerly known as Sam"]

Poorfour wrote:
Has largely worked with Marcus Smith...

Drip feed Kerr in over time and he could answer the issue for Quins.

A very different scenario. One of the key jobs for the 12 at Quins is to carry into contact and be someone Smith can pass to under pressure. The inside centre needs to be able to take a lot more punishment than Smith did when he was dropped into the squad.

And the plan was to introduce Smith far more gently than actually happened. Quins had hired Catrakilis to be their primary fly half with Smith getting a bit of time from the bench and gradually taking over; Catrakilis got a near fatal injury when his hyoid bone was broken in a tackle in the first game of the season and with the other backup flyhalves injured there wasn't much option but for Smith to step up.

As you say, it worked out well, but it wasn't the plan. The way Quins have handled Fin Baxter is probably a better indicator of how they are trying to bring academy players through. Baxter got a few games in his U20 season, became a regular backup two seasons ago and last season transitioned from apprentice to first choice.

George Furbank is the new Saints club captain.

There have been times when not many players in an England squad had captaincy experience at age group, club or international level. This season, Itoje and Furbank are both club captains, which could be helpful.

Yeah I know the Smith integration was sped up but I did say drip feed Kerr in.

Quins have tended towards bosh at 12 previously but doesn't mean they will continue to do so. Big Andre isn't easily replaceable so they will have to adapt to some degree, how much will be interesting to see. It may be they revamp the attack and come up with something different.

I think it's going to be a case of a few teams adapting game plans noticeably this season. There's some really notable leavers.

Saints - Lawes, Ludlam, Moon
Tigers - Wiese
Quins - Andre
Sarries - Farrell (also Vunipolas but they were fading)

Since downgrading at scrum-half to save cap space, Sarries have stacked way more kicking and playmaking on their 10, hence Faz. I'm expecting them to shift even more into relying on multiple playmakers. Not just 10 (Burke or Johnson) and 15 (Goode or Burke) but also Daly, Lozowski and Tompkins wider out. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a more Ireland style approach to tactical kicking. Where they use Lowe especially but also Hansen and Keenan to take pressure of their halfbacks.

Tigers and Quins have lost their best ball carriers by a distance. Both teams relied on Wiese and Estherhuizen to get over the gain line in situations most players can't. Replacing them is made even harder by both being very good outside that super strength too. Esterhuizen is excellent in defence and actually has really good hands around the contact area. Wiese made the most carries and metres after contact in the Prem last season but he was also third in turnovers, second most defenders beaten and most by a forward, and hit the second most rucks of any Tiger. So both sides are going to be asking the team as a whole to make up for their former stars dog work by improving things like rucks hit as an aggregate, whilst also learning to play without their best ball carrier. Tough.

Saints have lost a ton of quality and physicality at second and back row. They have talented replacements. I rate Coles. I think Pearson could be special - though he does tend to fade as the game wears on. Sam Graham was very good indeed last season. Munga was a very astute steal when LI went boom. I'm very excited about what Pollock could become at openside. Losing Lawes at 6 changes your approach to the lineout, hence kicking strategy though. Scott-Young is a decent player, but not Courtney Lawes. Ludlam, even when being phased out, made big impacts with his physicality from the bench in the KOs. Moon was the most physical lock with Ribbans already departed. It's a lot of quality to lose at once.

It'll be interesting to see how they adapt.

Sale to me look really well set for this season as their squad is settled to just keep going the same way. Cobus Wiese will be a loss but van Rhyn should step into that role well. Nayacalevu should be a significant upgrade on present day Manu. Sam James is a big loss but Addison is a quality returnee in the utility role, whilst Ma'asi-White might take more game time at centre as the season moves on. They're looking really well set to me.

So with LI a distant memory and having recently moved to Devon I guess I should be supporting Chiefs now?

Chiefs are a good set up. I have family who are Chiefs fans and been to a few games there with them. And also doing a very good rebuilding job on the team aswell...

Geordie wrote:Chiefs are a good set up. I have family who are Chiefs fans and been to a few games there with them. And also doing a very good rebuilding job on the team aswell...

Across the league, most teams have lost more players than they have brought in and have generally had to replace a couple of linchpins with less experienced players. It should make for an interesting season as we see who has adapted best. I think Chiefs are in a good place relative to most of the rest of the league; they began their rebuilding last year so are further along than a lot of the opposition.

For Quins, (and well aware that I am making myself a hostage to fortune), I think the more critical player to replace is Collier rather than Andre.

The latter is definitely hard to replace directly; short of recruiting de Allende or Jordie Barratt, there isn't really a direct replacement for him anywhere. But it looks from the preseason action so far that Quins have been prepping Lennox Anyanwu and Hayden Hyde to step into the role. Both are obviously a lot less experienced, but both have the potential to offer a mix of direct running and distribution. In Anyanwu's 1st XV appearances, his stats per game are surprisingly close to Andre's. There's an issue in that they are probably having to step up a season earlier than Quins would have liked, but the fact that they haven't brought any centres in despite some high profile recruitment elsewhere in the back division suggests that the club has confidence that they can make the transition.

I worry more about Collier's replacements because for a jouez-jouez team, Quins rely a lot on a solid scrum and Collier was the bedrock. Even when we had Louw, Collier was generally the one trusted to start against the better scrums in the league. Dillon Lewis was okay last season but is better known for what he does around the park than for his scrummaging, and Titi Lamositele is a big guy but the scrum (admittedly without Baxter, Marler, Wyn Jones or Lewis) didn't go well against Montpellier. Adam Jones has a good track record of getting the most out of his resources in the scrum, but Quins are weaker on the TH side than they have been for some time (though should be stronger on the LH side, especially once Marler is fit again).

Poorfour wrote:

Geordie wrote:Chiefs are a good set up. I have family who are Chiefs fans and been to a few games there with them. And also doing a very good rebuilding job on the team aswell...

Across the league, most teams have lost more players than they have brought in and have generally had to replace a couple of linchpins with less experienced players. It should make for an interesting season as we see who has adapted best. I think Chiefs are in a good place relative to most of the rest of the league; they began their rebuilding last year so are further along than a lot of the opposition.

For Quins, (and well aware that I am making myself a hostage to fortune), I think the more critical player to replace is Collier rather than Andre.

The latter is definitely hard to replace directly; short of recruiting de Allende or Jordie Barratt, there isn't really a direct replacement for him anywhere. But it looks from the preseason action so far that Quins have been prepping Lennox Anyanwu and Hayden Hyde to step into the role. Both are obviously a lot less experienced, but both have the potential to offer a mix of direct running and distribution. In Anyanwu's 1st XV appearances, his stats per game are surprisingly close to Andre's. There's an issue in that they are probably having to step up a season earlier than Quins would have liked, but the fact that they haven't brought any centres in despite some high profile recruitment elsewhere in the back division suggests that the club has confidence that they can make the transition.

I worry more about Collier's replacements because for a jouez-jouez team, Quins rely a lot on a solid scrum and Collier was the bedrock. Even when we had Louw, Collier was generally the one trusted to start against the better scrums in the league. Dillon Lewis was okay last season but is better known for what he does around the park than for his scrummaging, and Titi Lamositele is a big guy but the scrum (admittedly without Baxter, Marler, Wyn Jones or Lewis) didn't go well against Montpellier. Adam Jones has a good track record of getting the most out of his resources in the scrum, but Quins are weaker on the TH side than they have been for some time (though should be stronger on the LH side, especially once Marler is fit again).

I agree PF...going to be an interesting season. Even at the bottom end, we shouldnt be the push over of the last few years and particularly last season. We'll have a much harder edge to us...and have signed some very good top level "pros" which is what Diamond identified that were missing badly.

Anwanyu should be an interesting one. We've spoke of him quite a bit on here...certainly seems to have the tools to make that position his...lets see if he an do it.

Scarlets team to play Leicester Tigers (Mattioli Woods Welford Road; 15:00)

15 Tom Rogers; 14 Ellis Mee, 13 Macs Page, 12 Eddie James, 11 Blair Murray; 10 Ioan Lloyd, 9 Archie Hughes (capt); 1 Sam O’Connor, 2 Marnus van der Merwe, 3 Sam Wainwright, 4 Jac Price, 5 Max Douglas, 6 Jarrod Taylor, 7 Dan Davis, 8 Vaea Fifita.

Reps: 16 Ryan Elias, 17 Jamie Hughes, 18 Gabe Hawley, 19 Will Evans, 20 Ben Williams, 21 Carwyn Tuipulotu, 22 Will Plessis, 23 Efan Jones, 24 Charlie Titcombe, 25 Gabe McDonald, 26 Jac Davies, 25 Iori Badham

Decent backline. Some new guys up front, whilst some of the others are meh. Did I also read that Ed Scragg was on the bench for Bath? Seems like a strange occasion for a loan.

Tigers have named a wider squad for the game;

BACKS
Josh Bassett
Mike Brown
Ollie Hassell-Collins
Solomone Kata
Dan Kelly
Izaia Perese
Jack van Poortvliet
Malelili Satala
Freddie Steward
Ben Volavola
Will Wand
Tom Whiteley
Joseph Woodward
Ben Youngs

FORWARDS
Olly Cracknell
Charlie Clare
Emeka Ilione
Kyle Hatherell
Joe Heyes
Tim Hoyt
Will Hurd
Côme Joussain
Hanro Liebenberg
Tom Manz
Sam Williams
Nicky Smith
Finn Theobald-Thomas
Archie Vanes
James Whitcombe
Harry Wells

Only one actual flyhalf in the squad and three tightheads suggests we'll see several different selections over the course of the 80 mins. There was a lot of rotation over the 80 Vs Notts last weekend.

By position;
LH. Smith, Whitcombe
HK. Clare, Vanes, FTT
TH. Heyes, Hurd, Hoyt
LK. Wells, Joussain, Manz
6. Liebenburg
7. Ilione, Williams
8. Hatherall, Cracknell
9. JVP, Youngs, Whiteley
10. Volavola
12. Kelly, Kata, Woodward
13. Perese, Wand
Wing. OHC, Bassett, Satala
FB. Steward, Brown

No Carnduff?

Whats the crack with Illone Sam. Heard such a big fan fare about him a few seasons back in the U20s etc...hows his development going?

Geordie wrote:No Carnduff?

Whats the crack with Illone Sam. Heard such a big fan fare about him a few seasons back in the U20s etc...hows his development going?

The England under 20 lads are getting an extended breaks as the under 20s championship finishes after the NZ tour. So no Carnduff or Ollie Allan.

Ilione has had a bit of bad luck with injury and has struggled a little with physicality at senior level. He played 8 at age grade and that just isn't going to happen at senior level. That being said he's looked classy with good hands and strong work rate over the ball and round the park. He's still studying for his medical degree at the same time, bright lad. Early indications are that he looks a bit bigger coming into this season and he seems to suit what Cheika wants at 7 more than what McKellar did so could (fingers crossed) be a break out year for him.

Tigers ran out comfortable winners Vs Scarlets. Unfortunately for the Welsh fans the consensus seems to be that the Scarlets weren't a step up in quality from Nottingham the week before and the only good thing that they brought was their fans.

12-7 at halftime to 31-7 at full time. Heavy rotation again by Tigers including switching around players during the first half to try out combinations.

Joe Woodward the former England under 20 IC from the other year again got game time at 15. Interesting option as he's got good hands and maybe hints at Cheika wanting to use the 15 as a playmaking option. More versatility will help young Joe get game time as well.

Ben Youngs also returned to action which is great news after his illness earlier in the year.

Any sign of Steward playing at 12? Will SB request it ?

I hate seeing Welsh fans make excuses during pre-season, but I thought it was mostly a weak pack from Scarlets, where-as Leicester looked strong. The Tigers backline looked close to first choice too. It was a result that I expected. A few games in with their new players and Scarlets should hopefully come good, although I’m not sure about that when Peel is still there.

carpet baboon wrote:Any sign of Steward playing at 12? Will SB request it ?

Even for the centrally contracted players, final selection calls on matchday will remain with the clubs. So it will more be up to Cheika. I'd love to see it, but no sign of it happening yet.

Also, if they are only handing out 15 central contracts for this season then Steward should miss out. Not only is Furbank ahead of him, with only 15 they should be prioritising key positions IMO. Second row for instance has a big fall off after Itoje, Martin and Chessum. So I'd contract all 3. Whereas fullback has Furbank and M Smith as potential playmakers, plus Steward and Carpenter as more traditional fullbacks. At the very most, I'd give Furbank a contract but if there's only 15 handed out I'd even be tempted to not give Furbank one. Instead, get both the Smith's signed up at 10 for instance.

mikey_dragon wrote:I hate seeing Welsh fans make excuses during pre-season, but I thought it was mostly a weak pack from Scarlets, where-as Leicester looked strong. The Tigers backline looked close to first choice too. It was a result that I expected. A few games in with their new players and Scarlets should hopefully come good, although I’m not sure about that when Peel is still there.

Dunno how strong or not the Scarlets pack was but Tigers were without Montoya, Cole, Martin, Chessum and Reffell who would all start ordinarily. Henderson who'd definitely be on the bench if not starting and the Weise replacement Beets is yet to join up with the squad. Carnduff not back from international rest period.

Backline was pretty much all there except Pollard and a couple of the senior wingers Anthony Watson and Harry Simmonds. Development winger Satala and young centre Wand played good chunks of the game on the wing. Incidentally Satala has been playing himself into contention over pre season.

Pre season results aren't a great indicator of how a season will go but still not a great day at the office.

king_carlos wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:Any sign of Steward playing at 12? Will SB request it ?

Even for the centrally contracted players, final selection calls on matchday will remain with the clubs. So it will more be up to Cheika. I'd love to see it, but no sign of it happening yet.

Also, if they are only handing out 15 central contracts for this season then Steward should miss out. Not only is Furbank ahead of him, with only 15 they should be prioritising key positions IMO. Second row for instance has a big fall off after Itoje, Martin and Chessum. So I'd contract all 3. Whereas fullback has Furbank and M Smith as potential playmakers, plus Steward and Carpenter as more traditional fullbacks. At the very most, I'd give Furbank a contract but if there's only 15 handed out I'd even be tempted to not give Furbank one. Instead, get both the Smith's signed up at 10 for instance.

Doubt Cheika has any intention of playing Steward at 12 any time soon. Brown limped off injured Vs Scarlets, there's doubts over Shillcock's fitness, Anthony Watson is still out and we've got three fit inside centres so to get one game time he's played a few minutes at 15.

I definitely wouldn't be handing Steward a central contract.

Genge
George
Stuart
Itoje, Martin, Chessum
CCS
Underhill, TCurry
Earl
Mitchell
Ford, M Smith
IFW, Freeman

Is who I'd be looking to hand out contacts to. Harsh on Fin Smith maybe but he's going nowhere whereas Ford is out of contract at the end of the season and will have a slew of options for a large final payday.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:I hate seeing Welsh fans make excuses during pre-season, but I thought it was mostly a weak pack from Scarlets, where-as Leicester looked strong. The Tigers backline looked close to first choice too. It was a result that I expected. A few games in with their new players and Scarlets should hopefully come good, although I’m not sure about that when Peel is still there.

Dunno how strong or not the Scarlets pack was but Tigers were without Montoya, Cole, Martin, Chessum and Reffell who would all start ordinarily. Henderson who'd definitely be on the bench if not starting and the Weise replacement Beets is yet to join up with the squad. Carnduff not back from international rest period.

Backline was pretty much all there except Pollard and a couple of the senior wingers Anthony Watson and Harry Simmonds. Development winger Satala and young centre Wand played good chunks of the game on the wing. Incidentally Satala has been playing himself into contention over pre season.

Pre season results aren't a great indicator of how a season will go but still not a great day at the office.

I did note a few were missing, but Tigers had Smith, Heyes and Wells in the front 5 which I thought would make the difference. The Tigers back-row was much stronger than what Scarlets put out at 6 and 7. O'Connor is a rookie and hopefully he isn't as bad his brother Harri, Marnus is new, whilst Wainwright and Jac Price seemingly just don't cut the mustard at pro level. Max Douglas is new, whilst the bench contained mostly new-ish players who've been promoted, plus a hooker that can't throw! The result and score is about right. Not sure what your best team is now tbh, but for me the Tigers team was much stronger. I'm not sure if Scarlets have more pre-season games, they could do with a few more by the look of it.

Bath had two pre-season games over the weekend and lost both, I didn't recognise anyone bar their Welsh players for the Cardiff game. Hope Hennessey has a good crack at it this season.

mikey_dragon wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:I hate seeing Welsh fans make excuses during pre-season, but I thought it was mostly a weak pack from Scarlets, where-as Leicester looked strong. The Tigers backline looked close to first choice too. It was a result that I expected. A few games in with their new players and Scarlets should hopefully come good, although I’m not sure about that when Peel is still there.

Dunno how strong or not the Scarlets pack was but Tigers were without Montoya, Cole, Martin, Chessum and Reffell who would all start ordinarily. Henderson who'd definitely be on the bench if not starting and the Weise replacement Beets is yet to join up with the squad. Carnduff not back from international rest period.

Backline was pretty much all there except Pollard and a couple of the senior wingers Anthony Watson and Harry Simmonds. Development winger Satala and young centre Wand played good chunks of the game on the wing. Incidentally Satala has been playing himself into contention over pre season.

Pre season results aren't a great indicator of how a season will go but still not a great day at the office.

I did note a few were missing, but Tigers had Smith, Heyes and Wells in the front 5 which I thought would make the difference. The Tigers back-row was much stronger than what Scarlets put out at 6 and 7. O'Connor is a rookie and hopefully he isn't as bad his brother Harri, Marnus is new, whilst Wainwright and Jac Price seemingly just don't cut the mustard at pro level. Max Douglas is new, whilst the bench contained mostly new-ish players who've been promoted, plus a hooker that can't throw! The result and score is about right. Not sure what your best team is now tbh, but for me the Tigers team was much stronger. I'm not sure if Scarlets have more pre-season games, they could do with a few more by the look of it.

Bath had two pre-season games over the weekend and lost both, I didn't recognise anyone bar their Welsh players for the Cardiff game. Hope Hennessey has a good crack at it this season.

Yeah the Scarlets team didn't look particularly intimidating or anything but I presume those two maligned hookers are their go to options for the season. Marnus has been in a Bok camp hasn't he? Fifitea at 8, Lloyd at 10 etc there was talent in there.

Tigers was probably a second string pack with Liebenburg and Smith from the first choice. Otherwise pretty strong. Lots of changes in the game to get combinations tried, starting in the first half so handy run out.

Hennessey has a decent chance to get PRC game time with Lawrence and Redpath likely to be away during the international periods.

Alex Dombrandt announced as Quins club captain.

Not a total surprise - he's been the on field captain for a while with Stephan Lewies injured for long periods of the last couple of seasons. But he's a good choice and very few Quins fans will have an issue with his appointment.

It looks like Wasps have secured a potential ground share with Charlton Athletic for the 2025/26 season, I guess all they need now is a team! It seems the ultimate aim is to establish themselves somewhere in Kent.

https://talksport.com/sport/2034002/wasps-ground-share-charlton-the-valley/

I don't know much about that part of the world, but there is a huge population in Kent/South East London, with a seemingly health interest in rugby (lots of amateur clubs).

I know it is an unpopular opinion, and goes against the grain of what most rugby fans in the country feel, but I'd welcome Wasps, Worcester and Irish back in a heartbeat (assuming they had stable backers).

I think if we're building a strong second tier system, clubs like these have more of a chance to grow into sustainable full time professional clubs than a club like Hartpury University (who I feel will only ever be a feeder club for Gloucester) or a village/small town teams like Chinnor or Ampthill (thinking from a purely population point of view).

Before anybody points it out, I see the flaw in my logic considering the bankruptcies, I just feel there are different ceilings in potential. It seems to me that a club like Wasps (assuming the correct backing) will always have more potential for growth in somewhere like South London/ Kent than a town with under 10,000 people living in it (or a university team).

In my dreams I'd love two 10 team divisions where the standard is so high and the depth of talent is so strong (and the funding is equal) that you could potentially pick England players from either division and we could have two up two down promotion.

I have little sympathy for Wasps, they bounced around fairly regularly staggering from one financial disaster to another leaving players and fans to pick up the pieces. Appallingly run club for years who somehow managed to pull out results to mask the steaming pile behind the scenes.

Worcester were the opposite until those cowboys took over. The infrastructure for that club to come back properly is all ready and waiting. Just needs someone with some vision. Perhaps a merge with Coventry and then a big push to pull in the whole West Midlands, particularly Birmingham.

From a URC perspective we already play the best 8 English clubs in the H Cup, 4 aren’t great,  so what do we gain by including the two worst prem clubs and those same 8 sides in the URC? That’s 6 iffy sides.

The league would have to be played in conferences and the standard would be diluted. The top 8 teams in the URC are fairly even in standard now which keeps the competition unpredictable and exciting. We don’t need all these clubs. The H cup would be too repetitive too.

From the premiership point of view they’d suddenly have huge Tavel costs and less away fans at matches. And it would seriously p off all the championship clubs. I don’t get why either party would want this merge.

Apart from Some Welsh fans.

Intotouch wrote:From a URC perspective we already play the best 8 English clubs in the H Cup, 4 aren’t great,  so what do we gain by including the two worst prem clubs and those same 8 sides in the URC? That’s 6 iffy sides.

The league would have to be played in conferences and the standard would be diluted. The top 8 teams in the URC are fairly even in standard now which keeps the competition unpredictable and exciting. We don’t need all these clubs. The H cup would be too repetitive too.

From the premiership point of view they’d suddenly have huge Tavel costs and less away fans at matches. And it would seriously p off all the championship clubs. I don’t get why either party would want this merge.

Apart from Some Welsh fans.

Yeah I don't think there's any appetite from Prem clubs or Prem fans for a merger with the URC for all those reasons.

15 Ioan Lloyd; 14 Tom Rogers, 13 Macs Page, 12 Eddie James, 11 Blair Murray; 10 Sam Costelow, 9 Gareth Davies; 1 Kemsley Mathias, 2 Ryan Elias (capt), 3 Henry Thomas, 4 Alex Craig, 5 Max Douglas, 6 Taine Plumtree, 7 Jarrod Taylor, 8 Vaea Fifita

Reps: 16 Marnus van der Merwe, 17 Sam O’Connor, 18 Harri O’Connor, 19 Jac Price, 20 Ed Scragg, 21 Dan Davis, 22 Ben Williams, 23 Carwyn Tuipulotu, 24 Efan Jones, 25 Charlie Titcombe, 26 Gabe McDonald, 27 Jac Davies, 28 Ellis Mee.

Anyone know the Sarries team?

Saracens Men team to play Scarlets:
1 Rhys Carre
2 Theo Dan
3 Marco Riccioni
4 Harry Wilson
5 Hugh Tizard
6 Andy Onyeama-Christie
7 Toby Knight
8 Tom Willis
9 Ivan van Zyl (c)
10 Fergus Burke
11 Rotimi Segun
12 Nick Tompkins
13 Alex Lozowski
14 Tobias Elliott
15 Elliot Daly

Replacements:
Samson Adejimi, Phil Brantingham, Harvey Beaton, Olamide Sodeke, Max Eke, Charlie Bracken, Louie Johnson, Brandon Jackson, Alec Clarey, Sam Crean, Reggie Hammick, Angus Hall, Alex Goode

So many curious players to watch for Sarries this season.

Rhys Carre - Can he fulfil his talent
Brantingham and Beaton - Can they kick on
Balmain - Will he develop his game further with Peel and McCall's coaching
Sodeke - Will he make a first team debut
Burke - Will his skills transfer over to NH rugby
Johnson - Can he flourish in a stronger side
Bracken - He's highly rated and the Sarries 9s feel like a group he could break into
Willis - Can he grab a starting shirt without Billy there, or might Earl/JMG end up being first choice at full strength
Tizard - Will he kick on again after stalling a bit

It'll be a new look Sarries team in many way, but there's also a lot of continuity and that fantastic coaching team is still in place.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Intotouch wrote:From a URC perspective we already play the best 8 English clubs in the H Cup, 4 aren’t great,  so what do we gain by including the two worst prem clubs and those same 8 sides in the URC? That’s 6 iffy sides.

The league would have to be played in conferences and the standard would be diluted. The top 8 teams in the URC are fairly even in standard now which keeps the competition unpredictable and exciting. We don’t need all these clubs. The H cup would be too repetitive too.

From the premiership point of view they’d suddenly have huge Tavel costs and less away fans at matches. And it would seriously p off all the championship clubs. I don’t get why either party would want this merge.

Apart from Some Welsh fans.

Yeah I don't think there's any appetite from Prem clubs or Prem fans for a merger with the URC for all those reasons.

By all accounts the merger of a league is coming primarily from Premiership clubs.  URC have basically said no discussions on the news in the media this week is true from their perspective.   Think some very established media outlets rans this as well so I suspect there must be a little truth to it but I suspect this is coming from English clubs rather than anything from the URC side.

I think the Prem held informal talks with the Unions not the URC itself. Prem wants a BandI league, IRFU have said they aren't going anywhere without Italians and SA. There is talk of a straight knockout URC/Prem cup, where it fits or effects HCup who knows.

Joined league would never work, due to different funding models, but 2ant may work is if Prem dropped Newcastle and added 3 Welsh Regions, for 12 team league, and Ire/SA/Scot/ITA formed another 12 team league, double round robin, winners get crowed league champions and top 3/4 in eqch go into playoffs against each other. Would only work if each conference combined income and devided it evenly, plus travel costs are covered by the league, as it wouldn't work out that WRU move and have min travel costs and Others URC are left with large costs. Once the joint TV/sponsorship/travel and how its split has been decided, its very doable.

Kingshu wrote:I think the Prem held informal talks with the Unions not the URC itself. Prem wants a BandI league, IRFU have said they aren't going anywhere without Italians and SA. There is talk of a straight knockout URC/Prem cup, where it fits or effects HCup who knows.

Joined league would never work, due to different funding models, but 2ant may work is if Prem  dropped Newcastle and added 3 Welsh Regions, for 12 team league, and Ire/SA/Scot/ITA formed another 12 team league, double round robin, winners get crowed league champions and top 3/4 in eqch go into playoffs against each other. Would only work if each conference combined income and devided it evenly, plus travel costs are covered by the league, as it wouldn't work out that WRU move and have min travel costs and Others URC are left with large costs. Once the joint TV/sponsorship/travel and how its split has been decided, its very doable.

Can't see the Prem opting to drop Newcastle. Geographically it's essential for attracting talent in a portion of the country that would otherwise be empty and left to league.

If it was the choice of the Prem/English game they'd more likely look to pick two of the four Welsh sides or more realistically merge the four into two as they are pretty much on top of each other in terms of geography. The main benefit of adding the Welsh sides is the rivalry between them and the English sides in the West Country.

The URC is an unwieldy beast and the English clubs want no part. They'd like to pick off some sides closer to home to build up those rivalries and add interest for the league. If anything I think the Prem would actually benefit most from a period of stability.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Intotouch wrote:From a URC perspective we already play the best 8 English clubs in the H Cup, 4 aren’t great,  so what do we gain by including the two worst prem clubs and those same 8 sides in the URC? That’s 6 iffy sides.

The league would have to be played in conferences and the standard would be diluted. The top 8 teams in the URC are fairly even in standard now which keeps the competition unpredictable and exciting. We don’t need all these clubs. The H cup would be too repetitive too.

From the premiership point of view they’d suddenly have huge Tavel costs and less away fans at matches. And it would seriously p off all the championship clubs. I don’t get why either party would want this merge.

Apart from Some Welsh fans.

Yeah I don't think there's any appetite from Prem clubs or Prem fans for a merger with the URC for all those reasons.

Ditto for the URC, except perhaps the Welsh.
There is not a chance in hell the Irish will break from the Saffers - they consider them joining the league the best thing that has happened to it.
I understand all nations are delighted with the way the way the URC is going, again with the exception of the Welsh.

The URC would still have 12 teams without them - a perfectly viable league.

So what it boils down is:

The English have a problem as they only have 10 teams and the other two league are not happy they get 8 teams qualifying for Europe.
The Welsh are not where they want to be.

The other 4 URC nations will not compromise to help the English or Welsh out, particularly the Irish and the Saffers.

geoff999rugby wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Intotouch wrote:From a URC perspective we already play the best 8 English clubs in the H Cup, 4 aren’t great,  so what do we gain by including the two worst prem clubs and those same 8 sides in the URC? That’s 6 iffy sides.

The league would have to be played in conferences and the standard would be diluted. The top 8 teams in the URC are fairly even in standard now which keeps the competition unpredictable and exciting. We don’t need all these clubs. The H cup would be too repetitive too.

From the premiership point of view they’d suddenly have huge Tavel costs and less away fans at matches. And it would seriously p off all the championship clubs. I don’t get why either party would want this merge.

Apart from Some Welsh fans.

Yeah I don't think there's any appetite from Prem clubs or Prem fans for a merger with the URC for all those reasons.

Ditto for the URC, except perhaps the Welsh.
There is not a chance in hell the Irish will break from the Saffers - they consider them joining the league the best thing that has happened to it.
I understand all nations are delighted with the way the way the URC is going, again with the exception of the Welsh.

The URC would still have 12 teams without them - a perfectly viable league.

So what it boils down is:

The English have a problem as they only have 10 teams and the other two league are not happy they get 8 teams qualifying for Europe.
The Welsh are not where they want to be.

The other 4 URC nations will not compromise to help the English or Welsh out, particularly the Irish and the Saffers.

Blah blah the Welsh… and blah blah the Welsh

The Irish love the addition of the SA teams so much that Leinster have never taken their premier team to SAs backyard during the regular season, and have often been demolished for doing so.

geoff999rugby wrote:

So what it boils down is:

The English have a problem as they only have 10 teams and the other two league are not happy they get 8 teams qualifying for Europe.
The Welsh are not where they want to be.

The English league having only 10 sides isn't a particularly big problem. It's required smaller squads so journeymen pros are the ones finding it tough. In terms of fixtures it pretty much removes crossover between league and international fixtures which makes the games a higher calibre as the top players are available for a higher percentage of the season.

The PRC game run during international fixtures and these are normally focused on development players so there's still fixtures and youth still gets game time. With the smaller squads there's an easier pathway to senior rugby for development players as well.

The URC fans are somewhat annoyed by the 8 places for English sides at the top table but that's a them problem and not a Prem problem. The European or not so European Cup as it has become is going to be less of a factor this season for a lot of the English clubs as a number of fans have already written it off now it's on a poor relation sports channel most don't want to pay for. The last iteration of changes to the format annoyed quite a few, as it had become rather good before that with big games every weekend in the format before this.

mikey_dragon wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Intotouch wrote:From a URC perspective we already play the best 8 English clubs in the H Cup, 4 aren’t great,  so what do we gain by including the two worst prem clubs and those same 8 sides in the URC? That’s 6 iffy sides.

The league would have to be played in conferences and the standard would be diluted. The top 8 teams in the URC are fairly even in standard now which keeps the competition unpredictable and exciting. We don’t need all these clubs. The H cup would be too repetitive too.

From the premiership point of view they’d suddenly have huge Tavel costs and less away fans at matches. And it would seriously p off all the championship clubs. I don’t get why either party would want this merge.

Apart from Some Welsh fans.

Yeah I don't think there's any appetite from Prem clubs or Prem fans for a merger with the URC for all those reasons.

Ditto for the URC, except perhaps the Welsh.
There is not a chance in hell the Irish will break from the Saffers - they consider them joining the league the best thing that has happened to it.
I understand all nations are delighted with the way the way the URC is going, again with the exception of the Welsh.

The URC would still have 12 teams without them - a perfectly viable league.

So what it boils down is:

The English have a problem as they only have 10 teams and the other two league are not happy they get 8 teams qualifying for Europe.
The Welsh are not where they want to be.

The other 4 URC nations will not compromise to help the English or Welsh out, particularly the Irish and the Saffers.

Blah blah the Welsh… and blah blah the Welsh

The Irish love the addition of the SA teams so much that Leinster have never taken their premier team to SAs backyard during the regular season, and have often been demolished for doing so.

Blah blah blah the Welsh? Use your words Mike’s Dragon! Are people wrong in thinking that many Welsh fans want the regions to join the prem? Do the majority want to stay in the URC? What?

As long as Leinster go anywhere after they’ve built up a big lead in the URC league they’ll field weakened sided knowing that they can still keep the lead. If they play haven to play in South Africa early in the season or when they are further down the table they’ll send a full strength side. And who can blame them? The fact is that the rest of the Orish teams don’t have that luxury because they’re not as good.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

So what it boils down is:

The English have a problem as they only have 10 teams and the other two league are not happy they get 8 teams qualifying for Europe.
The Welsh are not where they want to be.

The English league having only 10 sides isn't a particularly big problem. It's required smaller squads so journeymen pros are the ones finding it tough. In terms of fixtures it pretty much removes crossover between league and international fixtures which makes the games a higher calibre as the top players are available for a higher percentage of the season.

The PRC game run during international fixtures and these are normally focused on development players so there's still fixtures and youth still gets game time. With the smaller squads there's an easier pathway to senior rugby for development players as well.

The URC fans are somewhat annoyed by the 8 places for English sides at the top table but that's a them problem and not a Prem problem. The European or not so European Cup as it has become is going to be less of a factor this season for a lot of the English clubs as a number of fans have already written it off now it's on a poor relation sports channel most don't want to pay for. The last iteration of changes to the format annoyed quite a few, as it had become rather good before that with big games every weekend in the format before this.

Some of that just reads like the tables have turned, remember when the Magers League got 10 out of 12 teams in the HCup and the fuss that was made over that wasnt an us problem then? On the 2nd subscription to see the HCup Premiership fans are in the position URC fans have been in previous seasons, and URC fans are now in position that Premiership fans were, of having luxary of League and HCup on the one subscription.

In the Anglo-Welsh conference it doesn't matter how its made up, just that its 12 teams.

Difficulties to overcome, championship clubs objecrion to a ringfenced Prem.
Player release - does the WRU have to pay £3.3m per team per season to the Premiership for player release from its two clubs or £33m per season to have all Welsh player released from Welsh and English clubs? Can't see them being to keen to start paying for something they get for free alreay.
Maybe an argreement that all clubs in the Prem/URC conferences, release players to the unions involved for free? But they what happens the £33m the RFU pay for this currently as they would now get it for free?
But if differences between WRU/RFU and Prem could be ironed out and Anglo-Welsh conference could be workable as long as travel costs are subsidised by the overall league for both conferences.

From English fans’s point of view, I wouldn’t really want a B&I league. I like our self contained league and I feel that ten teams is the perfect size for it. It doesn’t put too much of a workload on the players and there are fewer ‘filler’ games.

I like the variety that the European cups bring, and I wouldn’t necessarily be against reducing our team quota. However, I agree with Sam, the H-Cup used to be the pinnacle of European rugby and I relished it, now I struggle to get excited about it. The format changes and the French and SA indifference to it men’s that you often get second string teams who don’t care. The move of channels could be the final nail unfortunately. It really feels like they’ve cooked the golden goose.

From an English point of view it really feels like we should be focusing on our second tier, rather than joining another closed shop league. It requires time and money, and it remains to be seen whether we ever have enough of either.

The league as touted by several sources never going to happen, just can't see it. URC is unwieldly as it is with SA now in it so a league incorporating English, Welsh, Scots, Irish, Ita and SA never going to get off ground.

Some fans do long for an Anglo-Welsh league or comp and the interest would be there from a spectator point.

Personally I'd like to see promotion and relegation for Gallagher Prem sorted. Get that done before considering anything else.

As always it's money at root of all this.

I actually think joining English rugby would be a long term disaster for Welsh Rugby.  I'm not even sure there are that many fans left in the game that even remember these old Anglo-Welsh rivalries.  The only increase in attendances would actually see would likely be away fans.

The real issue the Welsh regions have are actually simpler to fix.  Ticket prices are silly in Wales at the moment considering where exactly they are in the URC pecking order.  Maybe if they started dropping some games to £5-£10 that would have some impact.  The lack of success isn't helping our crowds either.   Judgement Day used to be excellent at the MS.  But then they messed with the ticket prices and for me that was the primary reason they stopped being able to sell it out.  They should have kept it at £10 and that would have seen the sellouts continue.  

The only people I seem to even harp on about the old Anglo Welsh matchups are the writers in the Welsh Media.  URC gives us better exposure to playstyles and conditions.  There's also a lot more internationals in that league not to mention 2 of the best countries in World Rugby play there.  

Wales needs to stop looking at making things easier for themselves and actually start to raise their standards.

As a Welsh fan I want us to stay in the URC by the way in case that wasn't obvious.

Is it cost though that is keeping fans away or just other pulls on time and money? If ticket prices reduced and little affect on numbers then of course revenue goes even lower. What is average price for a URC match?
I've read that ticket prices for Int matches at Principality are so high that is affecting numbers but is it same for club matches?

I'll use the Dragons as the example here. The other regions will be the same or even higher. I'm not going to include early bird or season tickets as these will be lower but usually be taken by fans who probably are a given already for buying them. Random walk ins won't be buying these.

Cheapest match day tickets for Dragons are:-
Adult - £22
Concession - £18
Young Adult - £12
Junior - £5

My main gripe is the Dragons are not a good side. If you were a random with no affiliation to the club would you be happy to pay £22 for 2 hours of entertainment. There's not a ton of disposable money flying around in Welsh households and I'm almost certain people are making entertainment choice based on price.

I'm not saying that they should stay there but the first rule of supply and demand is you need to get the demand to a level where prices can then be increased once the demand has outstripped the supply.

Just to put this into perspective there are a ton of other sports in the area (Hockey, Cricket) who charge less than this. We have to accept that Rugby is an entertainment sport and are competing for eyeballs with other sports and activities. Once Welsh Regions can actually be competitive and have a demand for their products then you can look to increase pricing. I just think its one of the major failings at regional level. They should be focusing right now on becoming the value option.

mikey_dragon wrote:  
Blah blah the Welsh… and blah blah the Welsh

The Irish love the addition of the SA teams so much that Leinster have never taken their premier team to SAs backyard during the regular season, and have often been demolished for doing so.

You misunderstand me I am not having a go at the Welsh but I do think that there are a few facts that make my observations valid:

• The Welsh are not happy with the situation that they find themselves in with respect to how their rugby is set up below international level
  

• There are strong voices in Wales who would prefer playing English teams to playing teams from the other countries in the URC
  

• The reduction in the English Premiership has thrown finance issues for them in terms of gate money and future TV revenue.
  

• England will come under pressure to reduce their representation in Europe given the small league - 8th place out of 10 qualifying is a bit of a farce.
  

• The discussions about merging league come from England (whether it was welcomed in Wales I don't know) that suggests, to me, a degree of dissatisfaction with their existing lot
  

• The URC would, now, still be viable without the Welsh
  

I do agree with Mountain Man it wont happen:

• The English wont play against the Saffers
  

• The Irish wont give up the Saffer connection
  

• The URC seems to be working for Scotland and Italy
  

Wales need to determine what is best for them and go for it.
Being in the URC with reservations/resentment is not good.
Do they want to join the English? and if they do do the English want them?
My suspicion is, and has been, Welsh problems are internal not external.

As to Leinster my observation is they still won the league twice in the three years since the Saffers joined.
However I do think they have have shown a degree of arrogance which has cost them - they sent up a weakened side against Ulster and paid the price.
If they had won that they would have had homes games through the play off stages - big mistake.
They have not one won in any of the three years it has existed - the competition is tough and they need to adapt.