England - the build-up and winning the World Cup at a canter

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Here we go again.....

And Fagerson been red carded for exact same offence previously.

Poorfour wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:Oh and at least six weeks/games for Farrell. Can't be any reduction.

Speed of play doesn't come in to it, especially when you have a rep for it.

Fagerson got 4, reduced to 3 for tackle school, for a more clear cut offence. I think Farrell has done tackle school, but to go above 4 would be inconsistent.

Just trying to help you guys out

RiscaGame wrote:

Heaf wrote:They were warned and he did put his hands on the ground first

Yeah agree. Hope there is a bit of consistency in this going forward though, as a lot of jackallers do it, or rest on their elbows etc.

Indeed - drives me mad. The laws are clear and I don't understand why some refs just ignore it ...

sensisball wrote:If Farrell gets a 4 game ban then who starts at 10?
Surely Borthwick will go with the superior kicking and passing game of Ford?
Who will they take someone else in his place?
Would Slade come back in?

Ford...he's a quality 10.

The Guardian, May 16: Owen Farrell ‘fully accepts he needs to change’ his tackle technique

That article was almost 3 months ago. Maybe Farrell forgot?
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/jan/16/billy-vunipola-may-nowell-england-six-nations-squad-rugby

I think this is the worst England team in my lifetime. Players aren’t bad, but not in the best form but the outcomes are just horrific.

Scottrf wrote:I think this is the worst England team in my lifetime. Players aren’t bad, but not in the best form but the outcomes are just horrific.

Well too many haven't played much recently. Billy V first game since April or something. A few others similar.

I do believe they'll come good..and the big shadow of Farrell not being there might actually help them..

Geordie wrote:

sensisball wrote:If Farrell gets a 4 game ban then who starts at 10?
Surely Borthwick will go with the superior kicking and passing game of Ford?
Who will they take someone else in his place?
Would Slade come back in?

Ford...he's a quality 10.

We controlled the spell after Farrell's red card. Ford took control. He kicked well, played when it was on, took the call for the rolling maul and kicked the points.

England's discipline will be a real concern for Borthwick. Three of the four yellows (/red) were entirely unnecessary and the scrum penalty was absolutely farcical, Welsh prop hinged like a door. England need to be smarter but converting some scores might settle nerves a little. Can't give such foolish cards away at this level.

Wales shouldn't have been in that game. They'll have been delighted to only be 6 points down at half time. Farrell strangled the England attack who were dominant. I'm sure Wales will be looking more at last week's squad as the template moving forward.

Adams cheap shot on JVP wasn't the only off the ball hit on an England scrum half but any competent TMO should have flagged that up for a sin bin given his no arms shoulder had the unintended consequence of injuring the 9s knee.

Anyway.
I did say before game that a dour win better than an entertaining loss so there is that.

Think that's only positive apart from Earl deserves place in team, Daly was decent and erm, ah. Can't think of anything else.

As Borthwick said....England down to 12 men amd had the mental character to come back. That's a good one.

Stop the stupidity and continue to get players valuable gametime....and it will come.

Thought Wales were pretty woeful, which doesn't say much for England, who still look like they are on the training pitch and just ponderous. Wales offered very little rugby and just waited for Engalnd to make mistakes or the ref to a make a call, which both happened far too regularly.
The ref did the usual levelling up on the penalties with technical ones for England and just a poor set piece from Wales plus some cynical stuff at the contact point and scrambling defence.

George Ford, who has always been my preference, will be the key to some actual shape in attack with Tuilagi and Lawrence.  I do wonder if the coach is keeping that combination back for the Argentina game but should surely be used as a run out next week. Earl fully deserved MoM which creates some choice with Curry and Ludlum waiting in the wings and Willis did nothing wrong either when he came on. I wonder if Mitchell is about to drafted in after a nasty looking injury to VP.

I do think that the character came through when it was really needed, and that was down to guys like Itoje and Lawes lifting themselves when it mattered. England pack is looking stronger than it has for a while. Earl did really good, but I don't think anyone in the pack had really bad games.

That try we scored 3 men down might be the single event that persuades our squad that they can do it.

We are still going to get hammered next week.

I hope they are going to give the refs some more scrum training - or at least tell them not to hand out cards when they're just guessing ...

I would just like to take this moment to reiterate my belief that Steward should be moved to 12. He would solve a lot of England's backline problems.

Wow. Massively impressed with how Borthwick keeps moving us forwards. Once upon a time it would be hard to imagine us fighting back to see us beat Wales but so impressive tp see how we could beat them at home by 2 points. I know a few people were eant in to make a big statement with Borthwicks first team and wow so exciting and such a great victory. Onwards and upwards again!

No 7&1/2 wrote:Wow. Massively impressed with how Borthwick keeps moving us forwards. Once upon a time it would be hard to imagine us fighting back to see us beat Wales but so impressive tp see how we could beat them at home by 2 points. I know a few people were eant in to make a big statement with Borthwicks first team and wow so exciting and such a great victory. Onwards and upwards again!

Here's looking at you kid...

Just watched it because I was at a family event, al though I already knew roughly what was going on (despite warning my brother against spoilers). The win was welcome, but aside from the last fifteen minutes England were just dire.

An example, when we were attacking their line at the end of the first half. We were about ten metres in from the left touchline after first phase ball, Farrell received it and their were only two English players outside him! Whilst the defence had fanned right across. There was no desire to reload and and attack again, nobody coming around the corner and nothing on. The complete lack of composure and fluidity is just awful, I feel like I'm chewing my way through these matches.

I've just watched it.

Oh dear. We need a backline who can catch, and an attack coach. And a captain who knows how to tackle legally.*

*well we probably will for a bit

Mr Bounce wrote:I've just watched it.

Oh dear. We need a backline who can catch, and an attack coach. And a captain who knows how to tackle legally.*

*well we probably will for a bit

Shame we'll have to break up that winning back line but at least we got the entertainment that the win brought.

But imagine if they'd lost.
Another poor performance but to hold on when down to 12 and get back to win was something.
Thin pickings for sure but better than loss.

mountain man wrote:But imagine if they'd lost.
Another poor performance but to hold on when down to 12 and get back to win was something.
Thin pickings for sure but better than loss.

Spot on. The positives pile on one by one. This scrappy win just showed we can win the big pressure games. The real win is for the 6ns and beyond.

Two bald men fighting over a comb. Neither will trouble the RWC. Fortunately.

RiscaGame wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:Oh and at least six weeks/games for Farrell. Can't be any reduction.

Speed of play doesn't come in to it, especially when you have a rep for it.

Fagerson got 4, reduced to 3 for tackle school, for a more clear cut offence. I think Farrell has done tackle school, but to go above 4 would be inconsistent.

Just trying to help you guys out

I think Fagerson got 3, reduced to 2.

Just seen an analysis that says that due to OF's previous, the entry point is 6 matches. Tackle school mitigation not available. Full mitigation not available Maybe four weeks. Unless it's dismissed altogether!

Ref getting a grilling online. I don’t think he was great and he’s very card-happy; we’ve suffered him in a previous test versus SA and dare I say it we might have won that particular test with a better ref!

Vunipola was noticeably a shadow of his former self. It seems England might have a problem at 8, unless you just put Earl or Willis there. Earl and Lawes were good today.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Heaf wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Heaf wrote:So scrum pen to England - presumably he'll be yellow carding a Welsh player now then?

How can you give a yellow for a dubious call not in the red zone....I'm still at an utter loss here.

If you mean the Genge one he'd stupidly warned both teams that the next was a yellow - stupid and reckless as he was clearly guessing anyway - that should get him a good slapping at his review ... can't be given yellows based on a guess ...

Ah....I didn't hear that. Still....it was the Welsh TH on the other side!

I think it was Dillon Lewis by then, so definitely his fault.

mikey_dragon wrote:Ref getting a grilling online. I don’t think he was great and he’s very card-happy; we’ve suffered him in a previous test versus SA and dare I say it we might have won that particular test with a better ref!

Vunipola was noticeably a shadow of his former self. It seems England might have a problem at 8, unless you just put Earl or Willis there. Earl and Lawes were good today.

I thought he kept you init tbh. Some of the slow roll Wales employed wasn't dealt with until beard was carded. As for the scrums your replacement tighthead rotated at the hips every scrum. Liam Williams probably the best player on the pitch and was a rock in defence.

mikey_dragon wrote:Ref getting a grilling online. I don’t think he was great and he’s very card-happy; we’ve suffered him in a previous test versus SA and dare I say it we might have won that particular test with a better ref!

Vunipola was noticeably a shadow of his former self. It seems England might have a problem at 8, unless you just put Earl or Willis there. Earl and Lawes were good today.

At 8, Earl, Willis, or Ludlum. All have looked good so far. Would also depend who is at 7. If I were coaching would be a horses for courses type of selection. But instead it's Borthwick....

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Mr Bounce wrote:I've just watched it.

Oh dear. We need a backline who can catch, and an attack coach. And a captain who knows how to tackle legally.*

*well we probably will for a bit

Shame we'll have to break up that winning back line but at least we got the entertainment that the win brought.

Ollie Lawrence and marchant were good and ford when he came on. I suspect we will get Watson back too.

Earl was quality and got even better when playing 8. I'd be happy with Lawes, curry and earl in the back row. Willis on the bench.

The biggest plus for me is that Farrell may not get the opportunity to do something that stupid in a key match against opponents that will take better advantage of the resultant numerical advantage. Following from that it will be good to see how Ford runs the attack when left to do it solo in the next few games. Over the last ten years or so the vast majority of England's best attacking play has come with Ford at 10, so hopefully he can get the attack firing now. Beyond that, scoring a try with a 3 man disadvantage was a cracking moment (just a shame it was needed). That's about it though.

Yoda wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Ref getting a grilling online. I don’t think he was great and he’s very card-happy; we’ve suffered him in a previous test versus SA and dare I say it we might have won that particular test with a better ref!

Vunipola was noticeably a shadow of his former self. It seems England might have a problem at 8, unless you just put Earl or Willis there. Earl and Lawes were good today.

I thought he kept you init tbh. Some of the slow roll Wales employed wasn't dealt with until beard was carded. As for the scrums your replacement tighthead rotated at the hips every scrum. Liam Williams probably the best player on the pitch and was a rock in defence.

English say this about the ref every time they play Wales tbh. He probably bottled two red cards for England whilst all the other yellows (yes, including Beard and Genge) seemed random. I think he’s just a weak ref and don’t particularly think he benefited anyone today.

As mentioned yes; Lawes, Curry and Earl seems like a great back-row.

I thought he'd bottled the Farrell one too but then remembered this new TMO review process so perhaps he was just using that?

Threatening both sides with a yellow because the scrum was a bit messy (but no more than normal) because he had no clue what was going on, then pinging the wrong player, was just bizarre ...

Post World Cup, what half decent coaches are available?

It's quite clear that Borthwick is treading water and has not got enough ideas. Any top 5 team will massacre us.

Quite surprised George was kept on for the entire match on reflection. Thought he'd want to give Dan another go ahead of Ireland away but he may be planning to start him next week?
Just read that Arundell touched the ball twice in the match. He's going to have to up his chasing game if he wants to pressurise Malins out of that starting shirt.

Just in Billy Vs defence...that was his first game since April I think. Was never hoping to be a blockbuster one.

Hopefully Farrells out give Ford the reigns now and Smith his deputy.

I'd be tempted with Gus Warr if JVP is out

Farrell is due to pick up a 6 game ban at least by the sounds of it. Given the WC squad deadline hasn't passed would we be allowed to replace him?

Geordie wrote:Just in Billy Vs defence...that was his first game since April I think. Was never hoping to be a blockbuster one.

Hopefully Farrells out give Ford the reigns now and Smith his deputy.

I'd be tempted with Gus Warr if JVP is out

Just about to write same about Billy.

If JvP out get Mitchell in.

Ford starts at 10 Smith bench surely.

https://youtu.be/8pd_twI0xDU

In case people haven't seen the post match comments. Towards the end Borthwick talks about the points made through the week by a lot of you guys re the training. Not spending a great deal of time on attack and its all about 4 weeks time. Also mentions that Dan was due to come on by then we got a scrum and a lineout and it was more important to have George on the pitch at that time. All boding well for Argentina. He also says that Wales were the perfect warm up for us and its always an arm wrestle and that's what it's going to be for Argentina.

mountain man wrote:

Geordie wrote:Just in Billy Vs defence...that was his first game since April I think. Was never hoping to be a blockbuster one.

Hopefully Farrells out give Ford the reigns now and Smith his deputy.

I'd be tempted with Gus Warr if JVP is out

Just about to write same about Billy.

If JvP out get Mitchell in.

Ford starts at 10 Smith bench surely.

Will be interesting to see who gets the call up if vP is out. Mitchell has a great box kick these days but perhaps plays to off the cuff and quickly. Probably too risky that he'd isolate himself.

I just tune out now when Borthwick speaks, inane PR speak in a droning monotone.

As for next game I actually think England will be a lot better. Playing #1 team in world away, two dreadful performances, ill discipline, capt will be banned etc.
Pressure is off, no-one expects anything other than a hammering. Maybe it will happen but I rather suspect Eng be a lot better although after last 2 matches there is only one way to go.

Ireland will win of course.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Yoda wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Ref getting a grilling online. I don’t think he was great and he’s very card-happy; we’ve suffered him in a previous test versus SA and dare I say it we might have won that particular test with a better ref!

Vunipola was noticeably a shadow of his former self. It seems England might have a problem at 8, unless you just put Earl or Willis there. Earl and Lawes were good today.

I thought he kept you init tbh. Some of the slow roll Wales employed wasn't dealt with until beard was carded. As for the scrums your replacement tighthead rotated at the hips every scrum. Liam Williams probably the best player on the pitch and was a rock in defence.

English say this about the ref every time they play Wales tbh. He probably bottled two red cards for England whilst all the other yellows (yes, including Beard and Genge) seemed random. I think he’s just a weak ref and don’t particularly think he benefited anyone today.

Second red card? You can't mean Steward. Despite Adams grabbing his head and playing the clown he clearly landed on his shoulder. Simple yellow. Have to say the three different Welsh players that came to demand a card whilst the ref was deliberating was very disappointing. It's under review, let the man do his job FFS.

The sin bins were all over the place. Before Farrell's red I actually thought the TMO was referring Liam Williams diving straight off his feet at a ruck into a prone player. The fact Genge got some binned for one offence but the Welsh scrum spent the entire first half going backwards or to floor without a warning was frustrating.

He is a card happy ref but he didn't really seem to ever have control of the game.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mountain man wrote:

Geordie wrote:Just in Billy Vs defence...that was his first game since April I think. Was never hoping to be a blockbuster one.

Hopefully Farrells out give Ford the reigns now and Smith his deputy.

I'd be tempted with Gus Warr if JVP is out

Just about to write same about Billy.

If JvP out get Mitchell in.

Ford starts at 10 Smith bench surely.

Will be interesting to see who gets the call up if vP is out. Mitchell has a great box kick these days but perhaps plays to off the cuff and quickly. Probably too risky that he'd isolate himself.

Does he though? He doesn't clear with much range, it doesn't hang for a contest. He's a skilful player so he certainly can but it's not a strength when you compare it to what's the standard at international level.

Mitchell's biggest strength is his ability to play quickly and make fast decisions. His biggest weakness is that it's often his default and when he gets it wrong he's as likely to cost a try as he is to score one. He's got to the obvious call up though as he and Randall were the other two on the training squad and he's miles ahead of Randall.

Well if the limit of Englands ambition for a 9 is to have a good box kick then we might as well give up.

That's why Eng are so grim to watch these days and performances and results reflect it. Only pick players for a set and usually ineffective game plan and don't deviate from said plan whatever happens.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mountain man wrote:

Geordie wrote:Just in Billy Vs defence...that was his first game since April I think. Was never hoping to be a blockbuster one.

Hopefully Farrells out give Ford the reigns now and Smith his deputy.

I'd be tempted with Gus Warr if JVP is out

Just about to write same about Billy.

If JvP out get Mitchell in.

Ford starts at 10 Smith bench surely.

Will be interesting to see who gets the call up if vP is out. Mitchell has a great box kick these days but perhaps plays to off the cuff and quickly. Probably too risky that he'd isolate himself.

Does he though? He doesn't clear with much range, it doesn't hang for a contest. He's a skilful player so he certainly can but it's not a strength when you compare it to what's the standard at international level.

Mitchell's biggest strength is his ability to play quickly and make fast decisions. His biggest weakness is that it's often his default and when he gets it wrong he's as likely to cost a try as he is to score one. He's got to the obvious call up though as he and Randall were the other two on the training squad and he's miles ahead of Randall.

Perhaps your right. We don't need that type of player. Still surprised Cares there. Maybe Youngs can eek out a few 80 mins towards the business end of the comp. Just a bit worried about him getting an injury, he's probably our most important player, especially with the loss of Farrell the players will look to him to lead too.

I don't get the "Adams was play acting grabbing his head" brigade.
He landed heavily on his shoulder and side and was very likely winded in the process . Grabbing your head when in pain is quite a normal response.

It looked a little odd.

Here we go. The “game’s gone soft” brigade are going to be out again.

How do you say if a prop has had a good game or a bad one with a ref that is that clueless, the scrum was a lottery. I don't know if England's scrum was good, they did get a few good shoves on, or ordinary.

The lineout was quite good, a definite plus, George hit his man every time, Lawes pinched or completely disrupted three or four Welsh lineouts. Really good to see him back after nearly a year out. Question, why did the Welsh hooker keep throwing the ball to George, some obscure rule in the hookers union?

I hate to say it, but I was more impressed with Youngs than I have been for a long time, the ball was passed out as quick as it was available, i.e. slow to medium, but not Youngs fault for the slow delivery.

Were Martin and Itoje on the pitch for parts of the game other than the set piece?

Farrell, it's all been said, call in Fin Smith now.

Arundell did not get any ball, but he didn't go looking either, Daly was pretty good at coming inside Marchant, he looked good, even caught a high kick.

Steward is following in Farrells footsteps, he is making a habit of stupid tackles, he needs to learn or be replaced as good as he is.

The back row looked very well balanced when BV went off, Lawes and Earl compliment each other, Willis did well but only had 20 minutes or so. Ludlam or Willis for me. Lawes showed you need a specialist third jumper, if he is rested, then Ludlam must play 8 as he is the best of the other players in the lineout that can play 8.

I agree that they seem to have changed the ball to a bar of soap, perhaps they should add a rope, might be easier to hold.

Can't say Martin impressed, as soon as Ribbans or Chessum fit they should be in. Itoje has to play, no-one else really.
Youngs, he is benefiting from others being worse but yes he was fine I'd say.

Scrum was a lottery it seems but I am not convinced about Eng scrum. Line out good, no issues there although hard to say as Wales were awful.

Daly was pretty good, another who cops a lot of grief but he was one of the better players yesterday. Steward going downhill a bit which is a concern. I'd like to see Malins tried at 15 for a bit, either start or sub. Also Arundell and then he'd see a lot more of ball. No point having an attacking player if he stands around twiddling thumbs.

As for Farrell, goodness knows. See what ban he gets but grim either way it goes.