England still winning the RWC at a canter - The quarter finals and beyond

Carried on..............

So England announce the autumn games 2024...South Africa, Australia and NZ....

That's after a summer tour to...NZ

They better improve or there could be some record scores.

Hmm. There's actually a chance next year that we could go through the year winless if the coaches don't change.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hmm. There's actually a chance next year that we could go through the year winless if the coaches don't change.

So you think it's just coaches that need replacing? Not the players? Borthwick so far been poor, both in team selections and tactics but so have a lot of players selected.
Just changing coaching team won't resolve it.

mountain man wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hmm. There's actually a chance next year that we could go through the year winless if the coaches don't change.

So you think it's just coaches that need replacing? Not the players? Borthwick so far been poor, both in team selections and tactics but so have a lot of players selected.
Just changing coaching team won't resolve it.

Well I'd have different players than those chosen however I suppose the main thrust of that point is that no matter which players play under Borthwick and his choice of coaches I don't believe they will do anything but under perform.

As to the last point I think other coaches would improve performances.

A play early in the second half sums up Farrell:  On the front foot near the Samoa 22, he tries to rush a pass which is picked off and would have been a long range try if Ford and Lawes didn't get back quick enough.  I think Farrell is a shot player at this level at any position.

Why there is limited confidence in Borthwick and his team:
"We are trying to expedite things very fast," Borthwick said afterwards.
"We have combinations we want to play and work together. For obvious reasons, some of those we haven't been able to run very much."
Borthwick has had over 5 months in 2023 with this squad.  

"What you are seeing now is a team that finds a way through games and navigates through situations."What we are really seeing is a team that gets behind and was fortunate to escape yesterday....

I take with a pinch of salt what manager say in the media doc.

Geordie wrote:I take with a pinch of salt what manager say in the media doc.

I gotcha, mate, but Borthwick doesn't message terribly well, does he?

No I get that...doesn't come across as an inspiring kind of man...and yet that's not the case of what you hear form inside the clubs he's at.

doctor_grey wrote:

Geordie wrote:I take with a pinch of salt what manager say in the media doc.

I gotcha, mate, but Borthwick doesn't message terribly well, does he?  

I've heard people in the media complain about Borthwick before because apparently off mic he's a really engaging and sometimes witty bloke. As soon as they put the mic in front of him he does his PR robot routine.

Sinfield and Borthwick managed to turnaround a Tigers team that was frankly in free fall. It's not like they inherited a working culture there.

I suspect that Borthwick may have to be pretty brutal post world cup if he wants to rebuild for success going forward.

I still have hope SB can be the man...but his squad selection post WC will be a big indicator

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mountain man wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hmm. There's actually a chance next year that we could go through the year winless if the coaches don't change.

So you think it's just coaches that need replacing? Not the players? Borthwick so far been poor, both in team selections and tactics but so have a lot of players selected.
Just changing coaching team won't resolve it.

Well I'd have different players than those chosen however I suppose the main thrust of that point is that no matter which players play under Borthwick and his choice of coaches I don't believe they will do anything but under perform.

As to the last point I think other coaches would improve performances.

I'm not so sure it's as easy as replace the coaches and the results change. Eddie, for his many faults, is one of the most innovative attacking coaches we've seen in rugby.

Borthwick is a Prem winning coach who rebuilt a team from the ground up to do so.

We've had Nick Evans in from Quins to try and fire the attacks we've got an internationally renowned S&C coach.

Do any of these guys coach fumbling simple balls, falling off tackles or messing up set plays? Borthwick has simplified the game plan and we can't execute.

Underhill called up

Hmm. Well we'll see soon enough I suspect. Doubt he will be in charge come 2024. Borthwick did well to turn around a group of players who were underachieving with a belt and braces approaches but I think winning the prem has coloured peoples views of his ability. Let's face it if Skosan hadn't dropped what was it about 3 easy catches he would have lost to an erratic Northampton side. And this while the cheating of the cap gave you your own asterisk as was labelled against Farrell yesterday. Seems to have been a 1 off, a bit of a Claudio ranieri or Howard Wilkinson. But yeah we can blame the players until he's gone. Not sure he's added anything to anyone as yet. But he's only had 13 games in charge I suppose. Liz Truss may have pulled it around too!

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mountain man wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hmm. There's actually a chance next year that we could go through the year winless if the coaches don't change.

So you think it's just coaches that need replacing? Not the players? Borthwick so far been poor, both in team selections and tactics but so have a lot of players selected.
Just changing coaching team won't resolve it.

Well I'd have different players than those chosen however I suppose the main thrust of that point is that no matter which players play under Borthwick and his choice of coaches I don't believe they will do anything but under perform.

As to the last point I think other coaches would improve performances.

I'm not so sure it's as easy as replace the coaches and the results change. Eddie, for his many faults, is one of the most innovative attacking coaches we've seen in rugby.

Borthwick is a Prem winning coach who rebuilt a team from the ground up to do so.

We've had Nick Evans in from Quins to try and fire the attacks we've got an internationally renowned S&C coach.

Do any of these guys coach fumbling simple balls, falling off tackles or messing up set plays? Borthwick has simplified the game plan and we can't execute.

Spot on Sam

Just don't think Borthwick is ever going to be an elite level head coach. He's too conservative. It may get us a good unfenced win every so often but it'll see stagnation. Have to say at this point his support staff are frankly not good enough by a large margin.

And underhill called up.

Class player and I was relatively surprised he wasn't in the original squad but not sure we need more flankers. Or if we did why not call up Pearson etc. Think this does reflect Borthwicks approach for those hoping of a bright new start after the WC.

England will never win anything with either Farrell or Smith in the squad I'm afraid. Both are too egoistical and play for clubs who destroyed English rugby with their years of cheating. It also shows how badly the national team are run at the minute when a convicted drunk driver scores their winning try.

Add to the fact both Willis and now Underhill have been added to the squad ahead of Mercer (probably due to knowing people high up) and it shows how pro Bath, Quins, Sarries and Wasps the RFU and English rugby as a whole truly is and why I truly despise all 4 of them.

I honestly hope we get a big win against Harlequins next Saturday especially with their 16th man currently reffing at the World Cup. Same goes for Falcons and Exeter against Bath and Saracens too.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hmm. Well we'll see soon enough I suspect. Doubt he will be in charge come 2024. Borthwick did well to turn around a group of players who were underachieving with a belt and braces approaches but I think winning the prem has coloured peoples views of his ability. Let's face it if Skosan hadn't dropped what was it about 3 easy catches he would have lost to an erratic Northampton side. And this while the cheating of the cap gave you your own asterisk as was labelled against Farrell yesterday. Seems to have been a 1 off, a bit of a Claudio ranieri or Howard Wilkinson. But yeah we can blame the players until he's gone. Not sure he's added anything to anyone as yet. But he's only had 13 games in charge I suppose. Liz Truss may have pulled it around too!

Had the ref called the Saints off the ball shot on Kelly that ended his game early or done anything to make them scrum legally it might have been different. It's shoulda, woulda, coulda in a one off game. Tigers pumped Saints in the other two games in the league that season.

What isn't is that Borthwick lead Tigers on a winning run where they beat every Prem side in succession. Tigers went from 11th to 6th to 1st under Borthwick and were in a good league position when he left. He wasn't a one season wonder like say Quins post Gustard.

The cheating of the cap occurred pre Borthwick and indeed pre the current board of directors that brought him in. It was during the misplaced period of time where it was decided Leicester needed a world beating backline. Nearly got us relegated. Given the Prem winners have a full forensic review of their accounts post Sarries debacle we should know that Borthwick accomplished what he did within the rules.

He's had 13 games but he's yet to play one with his selected coaching staff. His attack coach doesn't join until after the world cup and the 6N was undertaken with only Sinfield in post.

He'll be in post for 2024, 2025 might be more up in the air. Personally I think his biggest problem is likely to be that he knows how he wants to play but England might not have the players to accomplish that at international level. Tigers went to the market and brought in Liebenburg and Weise. The physical and all action backrow options that were near constants in the side. He's got Lawes as Liebenburg esque, better at the breakdown but not the same work rate and carrying game. There's no one close to Weise currently. Dombrant's work rate leaves a lot to be desired and doesn't like to carry in the tight. BillyV is a shadow of his former self. Earl lacks the raw physicality though at least gets around the park.

Post world cup Mercer or TWillis might come through at 8 but unless Martin switches back to 6 we're scratching around for a big physical 6, maybe Ted Hill. Lots of opensides to choose from in a refreshing change. Borthwick needs to go and reforge the pack for me. Create a similar physical and mobile beast to what he did at Tigers where endless graft was a given.

And I think that's where the top class managers earn their bucks. If he doesn't have the players to suit his basic approach, change the approach and bring the best out of them. He isn't doing that and I just can't see how he ever will.

glaws wrote:England will never win anything with either Farrell or Smith in the squad I'm afraid. Both are too egoistical and play for clubs who destroyed English rugby with their years of cheating. It also shows how badly the national team are run at the minute when a convicted drunk driver scores their winning try.

Add to the fact both Willis and now Underhill have been added to the squad ahead of Mercer (probably due to knowing people high up) and it shows how pro Bath, Quins, Sarries and Wasps the RFU and English rugby as a whole truly is and why I truly despise all 4 of them.

I honestly hope we get a big win against Harlequins next Saturday especially with their 16th man currently reffing at the World Cup. Same goes for Falcons and Exeter against Bath and Saracens too.

Your partner run away with a Harlequins fan by any chance?

Underhill excellent player but how much rugby has he had this last 12 months? Also too many injuries and concussions that I fear for his future health.
This was ideal opportunity to give Mercer, an actual number 8 a go.

Oh well.

glaws wrote:England will never win anything with either Farrell or Smith in the squad I'm afraid.

I feel a Python-esque 'What has anyone ever won with Farrell in the squad?' scene coming on...

formerly known as Sam wrote:Personally I think his biggest problem is likely to be that he knows how he wants to play but England might not have the players to accomplish that at international level.

Isn't that a massive failing for a head coach though? Surely one key attribute is the ability to know who you've got and be able to get the best with that, not coach for a pie in the sky strategy that only actually works if you have South Africa's players available. I'm on board with the idea that the players available to England just aren't the best right now, and there's a limit to what anyone is going to achieve. But I'd still like to think England are underperforming and are capable of more than has been shown thus far.

Sam, Ted Hill was MOTM yesterday v Exeter...there's your 6.

I also think Itoje will be be on borrowed time....he honestly looks like he's running in quicksand at times.

Geordie wrote:
I also think Itoje will be be on borrowed time....he honestly looks like he's running in quicksand at times.

I'm sure someone on one of the various podcasts said he'd had glandular fever - that would explain a lot, and it can take a couple of years to get fully back up to speed after a nasty bout of that (I'm not sure exactly when he had it or how far along he is with recovery). If so we will hopefully see him back to his best, and shouldn't write him off just yet.

Wouldn't write him off while he's still our best lock.

Don't think he's as good as Chessum now. And I think he'll sharp get over taken by bigger more powerful options coming through.

Is Glandular fever rhe illness that he's had?

Geordie wrote:Is Glandular fever the illness that he's had?

He hasn't offered a name publicly, so it's just guesswork. Mark Cavendish had Epstein-Barr, which has similar symptoms. I'd be in bed with either, so the idea of contracting anything like that, and still operating at a professional level is remarkable.

Geordie wrote:Don't think he's as good as Chessum now. And I think he'll sharp get over taken by bigger more powerful options coming through.

Is Glandular fever rhe illness that he's had?

Ah OK fair enough. Can't see it myself but I have faith that whoever is in charge of England is going to pick him.

Ted Hill given his potm rank high for you?

Telegraph ran a story that shows England are copying football's lead to work with up and coming players in training camps. Tight five players have been attending additional sessions in view to guide them into the international game. In combination with central contracts it looks like the Rfu is finally get its head round to professionalism. We need these mentoring schemes for centres.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

Geordie wrote:I take with a pinch of salt what manager say in the media doc.

I gotcha, mate, but Borthwick doesn't message terribly well, does he?  

I've heard people in the media complain about Borthwick before because apparently off mic he's a really engaging and sometimes witty bloke. As soon as they put the mic in front of him he does his PR robot routine.

Sinfield and Borthwick managed to turnaround a Tigers team that was frankly in free fall. It's not like they inherited a working culture there.

I suspect that Borthwick may have to be pretty brutal post world cup if he wants to rebuild for success going forward.

Sorry to bring this back up again, but Borthwick doesn't seem to understand the fans and supporters (who eventually pay his salary) are the ultimate stakeholders and he needs to communicate effectively and honestly with them (us). Every coach has a different communication style, but most successful coaches develop a happy middle ground where they can obfuscate to their hearts content whilst still giving their stakeholders enough information. If he doesn't learn this asap, he will be turned out simply because in today's world, if you are not performing, you sure as sh!t better not treat the fans as an uncomfortable afterthought. And communicate.

Rugby Fan wrote:

Geordie wrote:Is Glandular fever the illness that he's had?

He hasn't offered a name publicly, so it's just guesswork. Mark Cavendish had Epstein-Barr, which has similar symptoms. I'd be in bed with either, so the idea of contracting anything like that, and still operating at a professional level is remarkable.

I had glandular fever at 18. Initial illness was brutal but fairly short. It did lead to weight loss and fatigue lasting for several months. Probably the biggest factor in me stopping playing rugby at University as I was still getting over it when I started.

I really don't see anyway back after yesterday's performance. Fiji will cruise past us unless we manage a repeat of the Argentina performance. Massive amounts of energy and physicality, a much stronger defence and then take every 3 point opportunity that comes along. Even then I don't think it will be enough. When you see where we are after so much time together it is very depressing. Absolutely zero redeeming features yesterday apart from at least salvaging the win. We could not maul our way out of a paper bag and our defence a shambles. When I see Cole and May starting I do think we are doomed. We have not given enough opportunities to others like Lawrence, Arundell, Smith at 15 etc and of course we did not even select the likes of Mercer or some of the other younger 9s. Mitchell was a car crash yesterday and needed hooking way earlier. The re-jigging of the backs was a frank admission that Borthers got it wrong.

It is too much of a mess and I think everyone's favourite 2nd team will be celebrating their first semi-final appearance next weekend. And then we can look forward to another couple of years of Borthers dross before he finally gets the boot.

Rugby Fan wrote:
He hasn't offered a name publicly, so it's just guesswork.

I'm going on what I heard in a podcast - which may well have been guesswork on their part, I don't really know what he has or hasn't said himself. Whether it is that or something else though he's been good enough for long enough that I don't see a duff season as grounds for writing him off just yet.

Actually I think England have a decent chance against Fiji. Yep, yesterday was dire but different day different opposition.
Obviously right 15/23 needs to be picked so there is that of course!
Quite how Mitchell and George were on so long is a mystery only Borthwick knows.

Agree on May and Cole, like several others time is up.

I said it pre RWC and it still holds true, rebuild for 2024 6N and on can't come soon enough. Ditch old tired guard, bring in new. Maybe get taught a few lessons for year or two but at least progress can be made like France have done.

*this is in response to hugehandoff post.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:Don't think he's as good as Chessum now. And I think he'll sharp get over taken by bigger more powerful options coming through.

Is Glandular fever rhe illness that he's had?

Ah OK fair enough. Can't see it myself but I have faith that whoever is in charge of England is going to pick him.

Ted Hill given his potm rank high for you?

More for the fact maybe it's not all about stats...maybe players not hitting the high stats still have big influence on games.

Thw problem with yesterday was not the coaches but the amount of indiscipline and unforced errors the players made.

Purs massive pressure on you and stops any momentum which is crucial against a physical side playing their world Cup final.

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:Don't think he's as good as Chessum now. And I think he'll sharp get over taken by bigger more powerful options coming through.

Is Glandular fever rhe illness that he's had?

Ah OK fair enough. Can't see it myself but I have faith that whoever is in charge of England is going to pick him.

Ted Hill given his potm rank high for you?

More for the fact maybe it's not all about stats...maybe players not hitting the high stats still have big influence on games.

Preach to the converted on the stats talk. Hill for lock?

mountain man wrote:I said it pre RWC and it still holds true, rebuild for 2024 6N and on can't come soon enough. Ditch old tired guard, bring in new. Maybe get taught a few lessons for year or two but at least progress can be made like France have done.

Agree, but....

I think a significant amount of frustration is that many of us were saying the same thing in 2021 2022, and again early this year.  In most cases, Eddie Jones gave us bare minimum lip service then arrogantly insisted there was a plan, and the performances continued to worsen.  Now we have Eddie's lieutenant and student, the performances continue poor, and we still get no feedback.  The old days when coaches were barely accountable to the proletariat is ending across all pro sport.  Only a few successful exceptions survive.  

Yes, we all know that the fastest way to unemployment for a coach is to do what the fans want.  The second quick path to the door is to pish off the fans.  Borthwick will survive this, but performances need to improve, and quickly.  His performance as well. If after the Six Nations, England are still struggling, Borthwick better start double checking his bank account balances.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:Don't think he's as good as Chessum now. And I think he'll sharp get over taken by bigger more powerful options coming through.

Is Glandular fever rhe illness that he's had?

Ah OK fair enough. Can't see it myself but I have faith that whoever is in charge of England is going to pick him.

Ted Hill given his potm rank high for you?

More for the fact maybe it's not all about stats...maybe players not hitting the high stats still have big influence on games.

Preach to the converted on the stats talk. Hill for lock?

Nah 6...

Will be interesting to see where Bath play him then. If he was that good yesterday they want to see him at lock a bit more.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Will be interesting to see where Bath play him then. If he was that good yesterday they want to see him at lock a bit more.

He's better than George Martin Imo, but has he got the size to be a proper lump in the row?

Well Fiji are having a really hard time getting past Portugal right now

It could be Australia next weekend!

Well how about that... for the sake of decent entertainment I'll be hoping that both teams were underperforming as they already had an eye on the quarter final.

Well. After how well Fiji played against Wales and Aus I was a bit concerned but they were even worse than England last night, hard to believe.
I was hoping Portugal would win with margin so Eng would face Aus in QF just for the extra Eddie factor.

Fiji will I'm sure be better. England if they play just sensibly should win. That's IF and SENSIBLY.

Agreed we can make the semis but that does not mean we are any good just the luck of the draw etc which we knew already. I said it after losing to Fiji in the warm up games that I don't think the team have bought into Borthwick's tactics. I did say he had lost the changing room and maybe that was too strong because they do have a sense of unity in some way, but I still think they don't genuinely buy into the tactics. That lack of belief comes across in how they play. Eggchasers has also concluded the same. They have had clear de-briefs and lots of chat, but as we still don't have any real improvement (and after how long together?) I don't now see anything other than more meh performances until we get sent packing either next weekend or the weekend after. Selection is all over the place and the one thing Borthers said he would provide when he started was clarity, but all I see now are dark clouds gathering at pace.

I think there's something in that, players not convinced on tactics but against Samoa it seemed to be individual errors, lack of clarity to see what's on etc. Set piece was iffy, breakdown far too slow. These things should be ingrained, bread and butter stuff but Eng were miles off it.
I agree, if Eng do win QF I just cannot see how they beat any SF team. Could happen but seems so unlikely.

England were poor in 6N and OK new coach etc but they have not improved at all since. No excuses as the squad been together since end of June!