Rugby World Cup - other team/games and general chat

by Sgt_Pooly Fri 08 Sep 2023, 7:45 pm

First topic message reminder :

I couldn't see a topic to discuss general WC stuff and non home nations games.......

Now we do...

by **RiscaGame** Wed 13 Sep 2023, 3:05 am

That Dallaglio line irked me too. Well done mate, you’re paid to watch it every weekend. Realistically nobody respects you in your current role.

I’ve heard a couple of things off pundits this WC, which seem a bit clueless.

Ben Kay said in one game that a scrum turned 90 = opposition ball.

Nolli Waterman said that when Nic White lifted the ball from the ground onto a leg, it was still in, despite the ball being lifted at all.

How do you learn a game, from inaccuracies on commentary?

by Poorfour Wed 13 Sep 2023, 8:52 am

The Laws change sufficiently frequently that every so often pretty much everyone involved in the game forgets what the current version is. I've even seen the sainted Nige award a pretty decisive penalty to the wrong team because he applied the previous year's breakdown laws.

Ben Kay has at least made the effort to stay current with the game and is one of the few pundits who is usually accurate. Shane Williams is good in that regard too, and Sam Warburton's not bad. Maggie Alphonsi is impressing me at the moment - it's clear that she's been working hard on both her analysis and presentation skills.

Brian Moore was - for all that non-English fans took against his style - out ahead of all of them in terms of his technical analysis and was still up to date decades after he finished playing. But that's what being a partner in a law firm as your day job will do for you, I guess.

Dallaglio has been laughably bad from day 1 and doesn't even manage to be entertainingly controversial like Guscott occasionally was.

by **RiscaGame** Wed 13 Sep 2023, 11:14 am

But when you’re watching the game every weekend, you’d hope you’d learn a thing or two.

Alphonsi has rather blotted her copybook on Twitter very recently.

by Poorfour Wed 13 Sep 2023, 11:39 am

RiscaGame wrote:But when you’re watching the game every weekend, you’d hope you’d learn a thing or two.

Alphonsi has rather blotted her copybook on Twitter very recently.

Didn't know that, but then I don't twit.

by **RiscaGame** Wed 13 Sep 2023, 11:59 am

It’s reference the Curry ban.

I have just realised I’ve blotted my own copybook, by calling it Twitter still Wink

by Old Man Wed 13 Sep 2023, 1:23 pm

Bill McLaren - They don't make them like they used to.

by king_carlos Wed 13 Sep 2023, 2:52 pm

TAFKA The Oracle wrote:King_Carlos, with respect are you really comparing apples with apples?! Bill McLaren was a commentator. The others you mention such as Dallaglio and SCW are pundits. Bit of a difference. I would imagine all commentators prepare their notes in a similar way (maybe not to the extent of McLaren). John Motson in football springs to mind. Encyclopaedic knowledge of the game from years and years of study. Pundits are there for their recent(ish) top level play/coaching in the game. Yes the pundits need to be better this WC. But they’re there for their experience whereas commentators are there for their ability to describe a game for a tv/radio audience and their knowledge, facts and anecdotes about players (a la Mclaren).

So I guess the question is: have any of the actual commentators been rubbish this WC? I.e. Miles Harrison, Nick Mullins, et al. Or is it just the pundits???

A fair point but I think the commentators aren't brilliant either, frankly. I think Harrison is steady enough but I'm not a massive fan of Mullins. I thought Butler was the best of the recent commentators by a distance. Sadly, we won't hear him again though.

It feels like that descent into lazy appointments of former players has got worse and worse to me. Jobs given based solely on bygone prowess rather than broadcasting ability.

Poorfour - Even Moore, who is very good on the laws, seemed to allow his following of the game to drift over recent years. His RWC preview with Charles Richardson in the Telegraph was genuinely embarrassing at points. Just empty and not even current tropes such as, "you don't know which French team will turn up", which we really have for a while now. At times you could feel Richardson desperately trying to add something to the emptiness by offering promising players names to prompt some observation and it was blatantly clear that outside the Six Nations and RC teams that Moore really had no clue.

by Poorfour Wed 13 Sep 2023, 4:03 pm

king_carlos wrote:Poorfour - Even Moore, who is very good on the laws, seemed to allow his following of the game to drift over recent years. His RWC preview with Charles Richardson in the Telegraph was genuinely embarrassing at points. Just empty and not even current tropes such as, "you don't know which French team will turn up", which we really have for a while now. At times you could feel Richardson desperately trying to add something to the emptiness by offering promising players names to prompt some observation and it was blatantly clear that outside the Six Nations and RC teams that Moore really had no clue.

I did say Mooro was very good. He's a couple of years out of the men's game now, though I thought his coverage of the W6N was pretty good.

by Recwatcher16 Thu 14 Sep 2023, 9:02 am

Just looked at the fixtures for this weekend and looks like being a non event with a lot of cricket scores and only two fixtures on Sunday with any meaningful importance.

One can hope for a giant killing but unless the refs develop one eye syndrome, there is virtually no chance, disappointing.

by Collapse2005 Thu 14 Sep 2023, 9:10 am

Australia Fiji could be a belter, think a lot of people are going to keep an eye on that one.

by thebandwagonsociety Thu 14 Sep 2023, 9:17 am

I'd agree. Australia v Fiji is the only potential belter.

Ireland v Tonga and England v Japan won't be blow outs, but after the first round there is probably less anticipation of an upset in the ether.

Hopefully they is plenty of positive rugby.
This could be a boring round of managing squad rotation and minutes coupled with unfortunate injuries.

by mikey_dragon Thu 14 Sep 2023, 10:06 am

Collapse2005 wrote:Australia Fiji could be a belter, think a lot of people are going to keep an eye on that one.

Yes and depending on how it goes, it could see Wales out in the pool stages.

Also interested in SA vs Tonga and England vs Samoa, not sure if both are on this weekend.

by Collapse2005 Thu 14 Sep 2023, 10:24 am

Its Ireland v Tonga and Chile v Samoa this weekend.

by **Rugby Fan** Thu 14 Sep 2023, 10:45 am

Telegraph on TMOs and video clips

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2023/09/13/world-rugby-cup-referees-fears-trial-social-media-tom-curry/

World Rugby concerned fans are fuelling ‘trial by social media’ for referees

Exclusive: World Cup governing body fears limited replay angles are creating a rush to judgment against players and officials

World Rugby is concerned that supporters focusing on freeze frames of disciplinary incidents and seeing limited replay angles are leading to players and officials undergoing trial by social media.

Telegraph Sport understands that the World Cup governing body fears intricate disciplinary processes are being pre-determined by fans online before being judged fairly by the disciplinary process.

The reaction follows Tom Curry’s red card for a high tackle in England’s match against Argentina dominating the discourse last weekend, after similar incidents involving South Africa’s Jesse Kriel and Chile’s Martin Sigren were not met with a similar punishment.

Kriel’s tackle on Scotland’s Jack Dempsey was not penalised at the time nor cited. UK broadcaster ITV froze a replay of the collision during their half-time coverage at a certain point to illustrate that head-on-head contact had been made, with John Barclay, the former Scotland captain, insisting Kriel should have been sent off.

Multiple angles, not all shown on social media but seen by officials, clarified that the contact between Kriel and Dempsey was chest-on-chest and that there was not enough conclusive evidence to prove there was head-on-head contact, with World Rugby believing that television match official Ben Whitehouse made the right decision to allow play to continue, while also sympathising that supporters were only reacting to what they were being shown on certain replays.

Kriel was not cited within the 36-hour window after the match ended, given the citing commissioner agreed with Whitehouse’s assessment. The incident involving Chile’s Sigren also remained as a yellow card, not meeting the red-card threshold for a citing, given that Sigren was passive when head contact was made with Japan’s Kotaro Matsushima.

Citing commissioners have access to all available camera angles including Hawkeye camera feeds, enabling them to zoom in on incidents, as well as split-screen technology to compare different angles side by side on a frame-by-frame basis while assessing possible foul play.

The governing body responded publicly to a question regarding the standard of the officiating during the tournament organisers’ weekly press conference on Wednesday. “Refereeing is one of the hardest jobs in the sport, and our responsibility is to make the referee’s lives as simple as possible by always supporting them. We know we have the best of the best in our refereeing team,” said Michel Poussau, the France 2023 tournament director.

A World Rugby spokesperson added: “The citing window is 36 hours and the citing commissioner has access to 15 or 16 different video angles to review, they get to see absolutely everything. If they also feel there is also no clear or obvious head contact, that [incident] does not go to a disciplinary hearing.”

Telegraph Sport understands that World Rugby is open to the possibility of communicating with supporters after match weekends to explain why contentious incidents in matches have not been cited, exploring how this can happen in the future.

Video highlights posted to World Rugby’s own social media channels have notably taken some time to appear during the start of the Rugby World Cup, mainly due to TV rights-holders having first access to all content to post on their own respective accounts. Certain clips are also unable to be seen by fans in certain countries due to geo-blocking and specific rights deals in each country.

Videos of match action not posted by official channels have also been removed on some social media accounts due to copyright notices from rights-holders, although Telegraph Sport understands that one example concerning a clip posted by ESPN was accidentally removed, when it should have been white-listed given ESPN’s status as a Rugby World Cup broadcaster in South America.

Meanwhile, most of the referees in France will not be wearing watches – unlike at the 2019 tournament – but World Rugby has refuted suggestions there has been a dispute with match officials and sponsors.

With the addition of a timekeeper at each match, input from the television match official and use of the big stadium clock and a half and full-time siren, referees will not sport timepieces despite the tournament having an official watch sponsor in Tudor, the Swiss watchmakers who are a sister company of Rolex.

Telegraph Sport understands that referees have not been provided with watches by Tudor for the tournament and that there was no expectation for this to be the case, with World Rugby denying there is any conflict between Tudor and the officials.

The referees chosen to be in charge of the 2019 Rugby World Cup in Japan were however given watches, although that was a one-off given that the partnership between Tudor and World Rugby had just started.

While referees can still technically wear electronic watches on their wrists during matches, such as those made by Garmin, most have opted to go without, including Mathieu Raynal for England’s game against Argentina in Marseille.

by Oakdene Thu 14 Sep 2023, 10:47 am

mikey_dragon wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Australia Fiji could be a belter, think a lot of people are going to keep an eye on that one.

Yes and depending on how it goes, it could see Wales out in the pool stages.

Also interested in SA vs Tonga and England vs Samoa, not sure if both are on this weekend.

Nah I think we will be ok now. I can't see Fiji beating Australia & even if they did, I always thought we were more likely to beat Australia than Fiji so we should be set.

by king_carlos Thu 14 Sep 2023, 12:08 pm

Malcolm Marx is out of the RWC. That's a gigantic blow for the Boks. Mbonambi is a brilliant player too of course and showed his strength against Scotland with a big impact from the bench. For my money Marx is narrowly the best hooker in the game though.

It's probably the strongest position in international rugby currently too. Marx, Marchand, Montoya, Sheehan, Mbonambi, Mauvaka. There are some freakishly good hookers around (giggles). For me Marx is narrowly ahead of the lot though. He's almost a combination of Marchant and Mauvaka in that he's as mobile as Marchand but as monstrous in contact as Mauvaka. As strong as Montoya in the loose and scrummaging but Marx has better darts. As good as Mbonambi at set-piece but stronger in the loose. The same rounded skills as Sheehan but even more physical. Marx is pretty incredible whether starting or in the bomb squad.

Add it to Lood, Pollard and Am not being in the squad. Etzebeth going off against Scotland. The Boks are carrying injuries of one sort or another to a third of their starting XV.

by doctor_grey Thu 14 Sep 2023, 12:31 pm

I agree Marx being out is a significant blow. A good hooker is worth their weight in gold...

by Poorfour Thu 14 Sep 2023, 1:21 pm

World cups are a war of attrition - and I guess four years on the squad that won last time are less resilient than they once were. France have a horrendous injury list as well, though mostly from the warm ups

It's been a problem for teams in every RWC, though not always a barrier to winning (think Stephen Donald in 2011 and England in 2003 despite injuries along the way to Hill, Catt and at one point all three scrum halves).

by king_carlos Thu 14 Sep 2023, 2:01 pm

There's a decent injured/unavailable 23 coming together, sadly.

1.Baille 2.Marx 3. 4.Willemse 5.Lood 6.Polledri 7.Yato 8.Conan
9. 10.Pollard 11.Minozzi 12.Ntamack 13.Am 14.Watson 15.Folau

16.Marchand 17.Healy 18. 19.Etzebeth 20. 21. 22.Muntz 23.

I'm sure I've missed a few that others will point out.

by Poorfour Thu 14 Sep 2023, 2:20 pm

king_carlos wrote:There's a decent injured/unavailable 23 coming together, sadly.

1.Baille 2.Marx 3. 4.Willemse 5.Lood 6.Polledri 7.Yato 8.Conan
9. 10.Pollard 11.Minozzi 12.Ntamack 13.Am 14.Watson 15.Folau

16.Marchand 17.Healy 18. 19.Etzebeth 20. 21. 22.Muntz 23.

I'm sure I've missed a few that others will point out.

9. Jack van Poortvliet

That's a squad that given some time together would run most of the sides in the tournament pretty close, I think.

by doctor_grey Thu 14 Sep 2023, 2:49 pm

Poorfour wrote:
king_carlos wrote:There's a decent injured/unavailable 23 coming together, sadly.

1.Baille 2.Marx 3. 4.Willemse 5.Lood 6.Polledri 7.Yato 8.Conan
9. 10.Pollard 11.Minozzi 12.Ntamack 13.Am 14.Watson 15.Folau

16.Marchand 17.Healy 18. 19.Etzebeth 20. 21. 22.Muntz 23.

I'm sure I've missed a few that others will point out.

9. Jack van Poortvliet

That's a squad that given some time together would run most of the sides in the tournament pretty close, I think.

You are not considering Etezbeth? Is there a chance he plays this weekend? I would think he should be rested if he is carrying any injuries.

Phil Vickery can play 9...

by mikey_dragon Thu 14 Sep 2023, 3:27 pm

Oakdene wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Australia Fiji could be a belter, think a lot of people are going to keep an eye on that one.

Yes and depending on how it goes, it could see Wales out in the pool stages.

Also interested in SA vs Tonga and England vs Samoa, not sure if both are on this weekend.

Nah I think we will be ok now. I can't see Fiji beating Australia & even if they did, I always thought we were more likely to beat Australia than Fiji so we should be set.

I'm not feeling as confident as you.

Tupou is out for a couple weeks now, maybe he misses the game against us. If he does, we're getting some luck during this tournament.

by Oakdene Thu 14 Sep 2023, 3:44 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
Oakdene wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Australia Fiji could be a belter, think a lot of people are going to keep an eye on that one.

Yes and depending on how it goes, it could see Wales out in the pool stages.

Also interested in SA vs Tonga and England vs Samoa, not sure if both are on this weekend.

Nah I think we will be ok now. I can't see Fiji beating Australia & even if they did, I always thought we were more likely to beat Australia than Fiji so we should be set.

I'm not feeling as confident as you.

Tupou is out for a couple weeks now, maybe he misses the game against us. If he does, we're getting some luck during this tournament.

As long as we match Fiji's result against Australia in terms of match day points then we should be ok.

by neilthom7 Thu 14 Sep 2023, 7:59 pm

Credit where it's due, World Rugby have realised those anthems were horrendous and changed them back.

by Duty281 Thu 14 Sep 2023, 8:32 pm

Should be a red, I reckon.

by king_carlos Thu 14 Sep 2023, 8:35 pm

neilthom7 wrote:Credit where it's due, World Rugby have realised those anthems were horrendous and changed them back.

That's annoying. Not because they weren't dreadful but because what I'd heard rumoured to be happening was even funnier than the butchered anthems themselves. I heard that the organisers had told the respective nations boards that they could individually request a change if they wanted to. Which sounded like a hilarious game of chicken. Which board is going to buckle first and basically tell the orphan choir to f*** off.

Re-recording all the anthems with the choir performing simplified versions alongside a band, then getting each board to approve is boringly sensible. At least let each team approve their oppositions anthem or something. I want to hear Scotland performing You Cannae Shove Yer Granny Aff a Bus by The Singing Kettle before playing Ireland. What about God Save Not My King.

These Frak ups were the first time I hadn't made a cup of tea during the anthems in years.

by LeinsterFan4life Thu 14 Sep 2023, 8:39 pm

We're seeing the benefits of tier 2 nations centralising their talents and professionalising. World rugby deserve credit here too for their funding. South American sides have been so impressive.

by Duty281 Thu 14 Sep 2023, 8:44 pm

I thought it was a pretty clear red, but it stays at yellow because of the actions of the second tackler.

Again, it's a mess. Lot worse than Curry's, but gets a lighter punishment.

by doctor_grey Thu 14 Sep 2023, 8:45 pm

Well, it's either Uruguay putting up a heck of a showing or France making a hash of things. Likely both are conspiring to ruin my Superbru. Certainly the Uruguay team is not intimidated going against Les Bleus in France.

by Collapse2005 Thu 14 Sep 2023, 8:45 pm

Harsh to disallow that Uruguay try.

by **RiscaGame** Thu 14 Sep 2023, 8:45 pm

I don't like the decision by the Bunker there.

by LeinsterFan4life Thu 14 Sep 2023, 8:47 pm

Duty281 wrote:I thought it was a pretty clear red, but it stays at yellow because of the actions of the second tackler.

Again, it's a mess. Lot worse than Curry's, but gets a lighter punishment.

I agree it's far worse then Curry's. I was certain it'd be red. Tier 2 teams don't have much luck with refs as we saw with Fiji.

by Collapse2005 Thu 14 Sep 2023, 8:50 pm

RiscaGame wrote:I don't like the decision by the Bunker there.

Same TMO that botched the Kriel decision. He is a bottler.

by king_carlos Thu 14 Sep 2023, 8:54 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:Harsh to disallow that Uruguay try.

I thought it was fair to be honest. He slightly overruns that dummy line so he ends up not being in a position to take a pass and runs straight into the defender. If his run is delayed by a fraction more then he's a reasonable option and would just be clipping the defender to slow him rather than blocking him entirely. Which was likely the intention of the move. Tough as it would've made it 12-13 and Uruguay are playing so well. If the same happened against my team in a KO game and was waved on I'd be screaming.

by doctor_grey Thu 14 Sep 2023, 8:55 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
RiscaGame wrote:I don't like the decision by the Bunker there.

Same TMO that botched the Kriel decision. He is a bottler.

Looked like a straight red to me. No mitigation. The second tackler was going in with no arms whether the height of the runner was higher or lower. Should have been more of an au revoir than an a bientot.

by **RiscaGame** Thu 14 Sep 2023, 8:55 pm

I think they relied on the bunker there, between Whitehouse and O'Keefe. Not sure who that ref is on that.

by **BigGee** Thu 14 Sep 2023, 8:57 pm

I thought it was very lucky for that not to be a RC

It is still all over the place!

by Collapse2005 Thu 14 Sep 2023, 8:59 pm

king_carlos wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Harsh to disallow that Uruguay try.
I thought it was fair to be honest. He slightly overruns that dummy line so he ends up not being in a position to take a pass and runs straight into the defender. If his run is delayed by a fraction more then he's a reasonable option and would just be clipping the defender to slow him rather than blocking him entirely. Which was likely the intention of the move. Tough as it would've made it 12-13 and Uruguay are playing so well. If the same happened against my team in a KO game and was waved on I'd be screaming.

Yea its technically correct but teams often get away with it

by mikey_dragon Thu 14 Sep 2023, 9:16 pm

I didn’t think the player was that low despite being tackled (so not much mitigation), and Taofifénua seemed to lead in with a shoulder charge. It’s all very inconsistent.

by **BigGee** Thu 14 Sep 2023, 9:20 pm

Wow, France will likely win this match but boy have they been awful!

by doctor_grey Thu 14 Sep 2023, 9:20 pm

One thing that annoys me mightily is the commentary teams. These are not......good.
There must be a French language broadcast somewhere.

by **RiscaGame** Thu 14 Sep 2023, 9:22 pm

So gutting for Uruguay to concede straight away. It's a shame they missed their first conversion too. France are very poor.

by king_carlos Thu 14 Sep 2023, 9:23 pm

Bugger. From playing like Ntamack to playing like Lionel Beauxis. Brutal.

by Collapse2005 Thu 14 Sep 2023, 9:23 pm

BigGee wrote:Wow, France will likely win this match but boy have they been awful!

Its hard when you put a b team out to look cohesive

by LeinsterFan4life Thu 14 Sep 2023, 9:29 pm

RiscaGame wrote:So gutting for Uruguay to concede straight away. It's a shame they missed their first conversion too. France are very poor.

I really think these kinds of mistakes come from a lack of game time against the top nations. Uruguay have earned the right to play more tier 1 nations in the autumn tests after this performance.

by king_carlos Thu 14 Sep 2023, 9:37 pm

Really tough scrum call on Uruguay there. Looked like Falatea just collapsed from scrummaging too long.

by Heaf Thu 14 Sep 2023, 9:37 pm

Just catching up with recording - how the F! was that not a red - who is the wunker in the bunker?

by king_carlos Thu 14 Sep 2023, 9:43 pm

Mauvaka has shown his quality since coming on. Cracking player.

Villiere has been a cut above most throughout as well.

Hopefully France don't pull away now to a score not indicative of how competitive Uruguay have been.

by LeinsterFan4life Thu 14 Sep 2023, 9:46 pm

So infuriating for Uruguay. The scoreboard won't reflect the actual game.

by Heaf Thu 14 Sep 2023, 9:47 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:I didn’t think the player was that low despite being tackled (so not much mitigation), and Taofifénua seemed to lead in with a shoulder charge. It’s all very inconsistent.

It's a complete omnishambles ... have they changed the guidelines that if there's no attempt to make a legal tackle then no mitigation can be applied?

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