Scotland - The Generic Moaning Thread 2024

[George Carlin]

First topic message reminder :

Scotland v Tonga
Sunday, September 24
Stade de Nice - 4.45pm kick-off.

Scotland v Romania
Saturday, September 30
Stade Pierre-Mauroy, Lille - 8pm kick-off

Scotland v Paddy Cousins
Saturday, October 7
Stade de France - 8pm kick-off

***

The 20 teams are divided into four groups as follows:

Pool A – New Zealand, France, Italy, Uruguay, Namibia

Pool B – South Africa, Ireland, Scotland, Tonga, Romania

Pool C – Wales, Australia, Fiji, Georgia, Portugal

Pool D – England, Japan, Argentina, Samoa, Chile

The top two teams from each pool advance to the quarter-finals. The teams who finish third secure automatic qualification for the 2027 World Cup, which is scheduled to take place in Australia in 2027.

The quarter-final draw is as follows:

QF1 – Pool C winner v Pool D runner-up

QF 2 – Pool B winner v Pool A runner-up

QF 3 – Pool D winner v Pool C runner-up

QF 4 – Pool A winner v Pool B runner-up

That means if Scotland manage to progress from the group stages they would be likely to face New Zealand or France in the quarter-finals if results go as expected.

The semi-final draw is as follows:

Winner of QF 1 v Winner of QF2

Winner of QF 3 v Winner of QF 4

The 2023 Rugby World Cup final takes place on Saturday, October 28, at the Stade de France, kick-off 8pm.

[tigertattie]

Turner only just turned 31. Can see him being the grizzled old pro to be at the World Cup in 4 years time.

In other news, Finn and Cam have returned to bath for training. Hopefully those two form a pairing that we can take forward into Scotland.

In terms of nii on plan B, we lack the ball carriers to go through teams. Big time. Dempsey tries and it’s mostly speed he uses to get over the gain line. We need a Jason white and a non injured Johnny Beattie to take the ball into the opposition. Dempsey can’t do it alone. Hopefully Crosbie starts providing some bullocking runs going forward.

[king_carlos]

Wow. Just realised that Turner is 31 already. I played at Heriots whilst he was also there. I was in the bin juice reserve sides as a drunk student whilst George was starring in the Scottish Prem of course. Nuts how quickly that has flown by. He's one of the good guys and I'm so pleased with how his career has flourished. You wont meet many that worked harder. I thought he had a fantastic Six Nations, then a tougher RWC.

[Hazel Sapling]

The problem for us is our playing pool is small.

Say Nel retires that leaves us Zander (fine), Javan Sebastian (okay) and Walker (if he develops, could be a good international). Two injuries and we are down to Rae (in an emergency, probably will do fine) and...Kebble on his worse side? Millar Mills? Nicol? I think we will try to move on from him but he could easily play this Six Nations.

I think the general list of players who may be pushed down the ladder for the next Six Nations due to a mix of age and players coming through will be Cherry, Nel, GG, Watson, Price and Harris but there will be paths back for all of them.

[NeilyBroon]

The problem for us is our playing pool is small.

Say Nel retires that leaves us Zander (fine), Javan Sebastian (okay) and Walker (if he develops, could be a good international). Two injuries and we are down to Rae (in an emergency, probably will do fine) and...Kebble on his worse side? Millar Mills? Nicol? I think we will try to move on from him but he could easily play this Six Nations.

I think the general list of players who may be pushed down the ladder for the next Six Nations due to a mix of age and players coming through will be Cherry, Nel, GG, Watson, Price and Harris but there will be paths back for all of them.

We're in for stormy seas when this lot retire that's for sure!

Of the recent U20s my highlights would be Leatherbarrow who looks like he could develop into a big running forward, Ben Ashfar looks to be decent.... Drawing a blank beyond that though.

[tigertattie]

The future crop is where having two pro teams hurts us.

England can bring on say 6 players through thier academy and have them playing at different clubs up against established players in that position or even other nations players.

We can’t do that as we have the incumbent at one club and the sub/alternative at the other and the youngster doesn’t get a look in. It’s simply down to numbers.

[Poorfour]

Your coaches are being a bit cannier about that, and trying to pick up players in academy systems outside Scotland. To give one example, Ando was one of the better players in the Scotland U18s last summer and is now in the Exeter academy and being watched by the U20s. They’ll need to watch out, though, as he also qualifies IIRC for England and Japan.

[NeilyBroon]

Tbf we've always had a degree of that poorfour but it's not a sustainable model. If we continue to fail investing in our own programmes then we'll become like Canada and USA depending purely on foreign born internationals. Incidentally that's why the USA have set up MLR in prep for 2031 and it's only a matter of time I think before that bears fruit.

We will fall behind unless we sort our own academies out!

[BigGee]

I think we are a long wsy shead of Canada and America Nelly, to be fair. We have a very high functioning Pro team and we have Edinburgh and there is always the chance that they do start to function as well!

It seems unlikely that are ever going to be able to support more than 2 fully pro teams, so we will have to continue to search the world for good players with Scottish Grannies.

Our teams of the future will continue to be a mix of home grown players and imports.

Where we can improve is in the way we use our pro team slots and give more exposure to home grown players.

That does seem to be happening but you can't just chuck promising young players straight in either and they need to get the mstch experience away from pro rugby as well. The futures program will hopefully aid that process.

Our U20s have been very poor these past few years, but some of that can be put down to the covid epidemic. This was a group that missed nearly 2 years of rugby.

We do still seem to be doing ok at u18 level, so there are clearly some talented kids out there, most of whom we will not have heard of yet.

What we really need to work on is bringing these good school kids into adult rugby much more successfully than we have been doing recently.

[RDW]

What are people's thoughts for the 6N then? It's going to be as tough as always, not helped by Wales and England potentially fully finding their mojo again by then. We are genuinely at risk of being back to wooden spoon playoff contenders if we're not careful.

Personally I'd like to see as much continuity as possible to really give it a good go, but there are definitely players who we need to move on from. Nel, Watson most likely, Gilchrist, Cherry, Harris and R Gray potentially. Price needs to rediscover his mojo.

I'd love to see us develop gameplan around Cam Redpath more, particularly if he forms a strong partnership with Finn.at Bath. We need more than a wide wide gameplan and a ball playing and kicking 12 will help that. Tuoipolotu to 13 perhaps. I'd also like Ben Healy to come good as he's also a Plan B option. I also think our Locks need a refresh longer term, but I don't really know who with.

My team for 6N opener making big assumption on form

1 Shoe
2.Turner
3 Fagerson 
4 J Gray
5 Cummings
6 Ritchie
7 Darge 
8 Dempsey

9 White
10 Finn
11 Duhan
12 Redpath
13 Jones
14 Graham
15 Kinghorn

Subs - Sutherland, Ashman, Sebastian, Skinner, Fagerson, Horne, Healy, Jones

[TJ]

I have no issue with the way Scotland set up and tried to play. Our best chance of beating Ireland and SA. We have to be true to ourselves. What won it was the Irish stonewall defense. We chucked the kitchen sink at them. 600+m made, 27 defenders beaten but only 3 clear breaks. Ireland had to make almost 200 tackles

We could and maybe should have got more out of the SA game but Ireland are playing so well I don't think whatever tactics we tried we could have won. Id rather go down swinging

Toonie? Never should have been appointed in the first place. should have been told to go away and learn his trade instead he learn-t it as Scotland coach. However we are where we are. I see no reason to sack him. Review after the 6N

[George Carlin]

Tbf we've always had a degree of that poorfour but it's not a sustainable model. If we continue to fail investing in our own programmes then we'll become like Canada and USA depending purely on foreign born internationals. Incidentally that's why the USA have set up MLR in prep for 2031 and it's only a matter of time I think before that bears fruit.

We will fall behind unless we sort our own academies out!

Yes, I can't remember how many more registered players Italy has than us at U20 level but it's a multiple of the Scottish numbers.

When you get on in years a little more (like me), you realise that the problem which besets most organisations isn't ineptitude, it's short termism. There is no way to make this better other than unsexy, continued financial and man-hours development in grass roots and club development where the person investing is unlikely to see that bear fruit during their tenure. So people just don't do it.

[George Carlin]

I think we are a long wsy shead of Canada and America Nelly, to be fair. We have a very high functioning Pro team and we have Edinburgh

I think we can just leave it there, Gee.

[NeilyBroon]

I think we are a long wsy shead of Canada and America Nelly, to be fair. We have a very high functioning Pro team and we have Edinburgh

I think we can just leave it there, Gee.

Edinburgh have long been an important part of our player regression programme

[123456789.]

I think there are two issues here. I don't think you can pinpoint this World Cup on the academy system. Ultimately, it came down to the draw. If we had been on the other side of the draw we would have won our pool. Then we would have lost in the semi-final in similar circumstances to our defeat to Ireland or South Africa but it would have been dressed up as a step forward as a consequence of where we are in the competition. I think the future looks bright for the next 18 months pre-Lions tour. We have France without Ntamack at home and a post-Sexton Ireland. It is within the capacity of this group to have a Six Nations to remember this year.

That does not erase the fact that Scottish rugby's mid to long term future looks iffy at best. A lot of the players will be reaching the end of their international careers (or passed that point) by the next World Cup. Their replacements are simply not coming through.

At this point we simply do not have enough players playing rugby. Ireland has to be Scotland's blueprint for rugby - the populations are not dissimilar and the rugby history of both nations is very similar. Nowadays, Ireland has 57409 U13 players and 57867 teens. In Scotland, we have 9541 and 15000. In short, our population is three quarters of Ireland's and rugby participation is less than a quarter at U13 and less than a third at teen level. The first task is to widen the playing pool.

[BigGee]

The 6N after the world cup will be a new page and no great guide to where all the teams are going over the next cycle.

A lot of players from all nations will stand down after this competition. Some volunterily, some because coaches old and new, will want to move on to other players to bring them on and freshen up their squads.

The world cup is also different, in that the squads stay together for a long period of time, they get more cohesive and probably fitter away from the regular grind of league rugby. Going back to it in November or whenever they do, may be a bit of an anti climax for some players and form may suffer.

The next 6N as always may be a different box of tricks and will tell its own story. I don't see Scotland being any more or less competitive than we have recently, but you would still fancy Ireland or France to win it.

[tigertattie]

Imports do work, see Duhan for crying out loud

BUT

Duhan is the exception rather than the rule. You won’t beat teams with players who are considered not good enough for their “first” nation. Duhan works because he’s chosen us over a nation that doesn’t really play rugby. Compare that to Kyle Steyn. Can anyone say they’d pick him over Mpimbi or Kobe? No, not a single person would.

Again, this World Cup was stacked against us. We really shouldn’t be basing future direction on this World Cup. We do though need to seriously address why we’re not developing players from mini rugby to the top table.

[king_carlos]

Duhan's South African. Have I missed something there?!

A friend who's been a season ticket holder at Edinburgh his whole life who I sat next to whilst I held an season ticket there had an interesting take on the "imports" side of things. He saw the "golden generation" as he put as a coming together of three types of players. Home grown players who learned their rugby in Scotland - Finn, Hogg, Richie, Blairhorn, Sutherland, Gray x 2, Darcy, etc. Players who learned their rugby in England and largely came through Prem academies but had Scottish ancestry - the Mullet, Price, White, Harris, Redpath, Ashman, etc. Then imports who qualified through residency or ancestry but hailed from further afield - Duhan, WP, Schoe, Huwipulotu, Dempsey, Steyn. In his view all three had thrown up a fantastic crop of talent simultaneously.

His concern was that this had happened somewhat by accident. He doesn't look at Scotland's recruitment and see a system aimed at finding players such as Duhey and Schoe in South Africa that would therefore do it again. Rather he sees a system that happened to sign some terrific SA talents who opted to stay in Scotland and qualified through residency. He also looks at Scotland's U20s struggling and worries about the upcoming home grown players.

It came from a discussion about the dire state of English rugby's structures and the Premiership being so much poorer now. I still think the English academies are producing U18 talent but it stalls in the stagnant Premiership. He started wondering if that issue might lead to more academy graduates with Scottish ancestry looking north of the border, or if it would simply lead to worse developed academy grads who would therefore be less use for the Scotland team. Then he tied it in with his concerns around the pathways in Scotland and whether the bumper crop of southern hemisphere talent was luck rather than design. Plus he felt that South African domestic rugby strengthening again and the rise of the French leagues may see talent look to stay in SA or go to France rather than landing in Britain as much.

His worry is that all three of those types of players that came to together for this Scotland team have some question marks over them going forward.

[king_carlos]

We have France without Ntamack at home and a post-Sexton Ireland.

Maybe not the thread for it, but apparently Dupont might switch to 7s in preparation for the France Olympics, so potentially miss the Six Nations too. I'm not a massive follower of 7s but I'd love to see Dupont playing it!

[NeilyBroon]

Duhan's South African. Have I missed something there?!

A friend who's been a season ticket holder at Edinburgh his whole life who I sat next to whilst I held an season ticket there had an interesting take on the "imports" side of things. He saw the "golden generation" as he put as a coming together of three types of players. Home grown players who learned their rugby in Scotland - Finn, Hogg, Richie, Blairhorn, Sutherland, Gray x 2, Darcy, etc. Players who learned their rugby in England and largely came through Prem academies but had Scottish ancestry - the Mullet, Price, White, Harris, Redpath, Ashman, etc. Then imports who qualified through residency or ancestry but hailed from further afield - Duhan, WP, Schoe, Huwipulotu, Dempsey, Steyn. In his view all three had thrown up a fantastic crop of talent simultaneously.

His concern was that this had happened somewhat by accident. He doesn't look at Scotland's recruitment and see a system aimed at finding players such as Duhey and Schoe in South Africa that would therefore do it again. Rather he sees a system that happened to sign some terrific SA talents who opted to stay in Scotland and qualified through residency. He also looks at Scotland's U20s struggling and worries about the upcoming home grown players.

It came from a discussion about the dire state of English rugby's structures and the Premiership being so much poorer now. I still think the English academies are producing U18 talent but it stalls in the stagnant Premiership. He started wondering if that issue might lead to more academy graduates with Scottish ancestry looking north of the border, or if it would simply lead to worse developed academy grads who would therefore be less use for the Scotland team. Then he tied it in with his concerns around the pathways in Scotland and whether the bumper crop of southern hemisphere talent was luck rather than design. Plus he felt that South African domestic rugby strengthening again and the rise of the French leagues may see talent look to stay in SA or go to France rather than landing in Britain as much.

His worry is that all three of those types of players that came to together for this Scotland team have some question marks over them going forward.

This is the issue with importing journeymen that we have seen time to time, Jaco Van Der Walt being a prime example, or Jade Re Rure who had a Scottish granny. We don't hear about the ones who haven't worked out... but have also had collosal amounts spent on them to ultimately block another player's development. There was the England u20 league centre Edinburgh forked out for a few years ago that amounted to nothing. Cornell du Preez who tbf was unlucky with injury, Blair Cowan who had a few good games but was otherwise average, Josh Strauss who seemed to show up for 5 minutes a game at international level.

I think I'd take a few more years of pain for long term gain.

The frustrating thing about this world cup is, like your friend said, we've been very lucky this time around with the talent available.

Its not so much that we've lost to two teams who are objectively better, we've not even put up a decent fight.

Against Ireland ...When you're refusing to kick penalties when you need an 8 point winning margin that's just sheer lunacy. That's either a strategy failure from the coaches or hot headedness from the players. Either way it really doesn't look good. Regardless of our opposition, I expected a better performance this time around.

Maybe if Toonie isn't leaving have his successor assist him as part of a trial period, given that we now have until 2026 to decide what direction we're going for 2027

[TJ]

I disagree strongly about the display against Ireland Kicking 3 pts does us no good. ~We have to be true to ourselves

[NeilyBroon]

I disagree strongly about the display against Ireland  Kicking 3 pts does us no good.  ~We have to be true to ourselves

With a failing lineout and hard pressing defence?

You need points pressure against those kind of teams to help create unforced errors. We could have had 9 points in the first half that we turned down. Probably another 6 in the second. By refusing points from the start we gave in to panic.

I'd wager the scoreline would have been far more respectable had we taken penalties.

[tigertattie]

Test rugby you take the points.

Go in at half time vs Ireland 6-5 up and you’ve got a platform. I’m not saying the result would have been different but remember we only had to win by 8. Are you honestly saying that we couldn’t have gotten another 3 penalties and held on???

[BigGee]

Certainty at that stage of the game we should have taken the points.

Way to early to have been rolling the dice!

[NeilyBroon]

On a bright note, the women absolutely smashed it against SA today! They've really come on in leaps and bounds the last couple of seasons.

Hopefully they'll make a good account of themselves for the rest of the tournament.

[RDW]

On a bright note, the women absolutely smashed it against SA today! They've really come on in leaps and bounds the last couple of seasons.

Hopefully they'll make a good account of themselves for the rest of the tournament.

Aye that was a great win.

Conversely the 'Futures' 23 got absolutely gubbed by Stirling which ties into the earlier debate about development. Does anyone know if the under 20s actually play for the super 6 teams? That would make much more sense - let them develop alongside experienced semi pros instead of dumping them all in one team and getting horsed by 80 points every game.

[BigGee]

They have not been horsed in every game to be fair. I don't think they have won any, but have been pretty competitive on occasions.

A big problem for them is a very different line up every week, some weeks clearly a lot stronger thsn others.

It remaibs to be seen whether this approach is effective or not.

[Tramptastic]

On a bright note, the women absolutely smashed it against SA today! They've really come on in leaps and bounds the last couple of seasons.

Hopefully they'll make a good account of themselves for the rest of the tournament.

Aye that was a great win.

Conversely the 'Futures' 23 got absolutely gubbed by Stirling which ties into the earlier debate about development. Does anyone know if the under 20s actually play for the super 6 teams? That would make much more sense - let them develop alongside experienced semi pros instead of dumping them all in one team and getting horsed by 80 points every game.

I think that the original idea about the super 6 was it would be a decent player pathway and would heavily involve young scottish talent

What has actually happened is the super 6 sides are playing to win, developing u20 talent for the pro sides took a back seat and very good semi pros but with a lower ceiling + imports were taking all the match day spaces

If the futures 23 has a positive effect of upskilling our youths we'll see the results in the u20s six nations. Jury still out but i can understand the requirement of the futures side if the super 6 sides arent bringing on academy talent.

Edit: where we might see the fastest improvement is with our front row stocks. Younger props getting that exposure to gnarly old props on a weekly basis will do them a world of good rather than just working in the gym. Probably one of the main reasons weve been reliant on importing props for the past decade!

[tigertattie]

And that gentleman is why you take the points when you can.

First 12 points off the tee. Kept Argentina in the game which when they did manage to get over the line gave them the win (by more than 8 points too )

[RDW]

And that gentleman is why you take the points when you can.

First 12 points off the tee. Kept Argentina in the game which when they did manage to get over the line gave them the win (by more than 8 points too )

Not pretty but a test match winning performance. I know it's part of a DNA but when did we last see a team win something who predominantly went wide wide all the time? As has been mentioned many times it's fine if we have that as our Plan A but we need a Plan B and C when that doesn't work. Currently we don't.

[bsando]

And that gentleman is why you take the points when you can.

First 12 points off the tee. Kept Argentina in the game which when they did manage to get over the line gave them the win (by more than 8 points too )

Not pretty but a test match winning performance. I know it's part of a DNA but when did we last see a team win something who predominantly went wide wide all the time? As has been mentioned many times it's fine if we have that as our Plan A but we need a Plan B and C when that doesn't work. Currently we don't.

Pretty much why I’d hoped Toonie would resign. It’s all well and good to be technically excellent as a coach but you’ve got to have a varied game plan that can challenge teams. Foster tonight brought a plan for taking on Ireland that worked incredibly well. I’m sure our loss to Ireland was incredibly helpful for them as they were better at the breakdown, made dominant tackles and kicked a lot more than they usually would. All round excellent example of how to analyse and beat a team.

[RDW]

Well the ABs showing us how to beat Ireland.

So we just need to do what the ABs did.

Easy!

[NeilyBroon]

The subsequent gLove meme was excellent.

Bit disappointed with lack of NH representation though now. France need to beat SA for the north to stand a chance of winning the thing because England certainly won't (if they get past Fiji!).

[bsando]

I’m not writing off England yet. A theme this World Cup seems to be the less fancied top tier sides building into the tournament whilst those coming in with form have not lived up to their expectation. A little unfair on SA and France as both have been brilliant but one must leave early. NZ fans were lambasting Foster after the opening game and now they’re nearly in the final. Wish we had a rubbish coach like him.

[NeilyBroon]

I’m not writing off England yet. A theme this World Cup seems to be the less fancied top tier sides building into the tournament whilst those coming in with form have not lived up to their expectation. A little unfair on SA and France as both have been brilliant but one must leave early. NZ fans were lambasting Foster after the opening game and now they’re nearly in the final. Wish we had a rubbish coach like him.

Matt Williams to take a break from obnoxious punditry for us to win 4 GrandSlams and a WC final?

[bsando]

I’m not writing off England yet. A theme this World Cup seems to be the less fancied top tier sides building into the tournament whilst those coming in with form have not lived up to their expectation. A little unfair on SA and France as both have been brilliant but one must leave early. NZ fans were lambasting Foster after the opening game and now they’re nearly in the final. Wish we had a rubbish coach like him.

Matt Williams to take a break from obnoxious punditry for us to win 4 GrandSlams and a WC final?

Haha I was going to say he should lead the imaginary external review of Scotlands World Cup campaign.

[NeilyBroon]

I’m not writing off England yet. A theme this World Cup seems to be the less fancied top tier sides building into the tournament whilst those coming in with form have not lived up to their expectation. A little unfair on SA and France as both have been brilliant but one must leave early. NZ fans were lambasting Foster after the opening game and now they’re nearly in the final. Wish we had a rubbish coach like him.

Matt Williams to take a break from obnoxious punditry for us to win 4 GrandSlams and a WC final?

Haha I was going to say he should lead the imaginary external review of Scotlands World Cup campaign.

All this time he's been a lead shareholder in the SRU just so he can watch it burn, I heard it was part of his severance deal.

[Mcsweens]

I’m not writing off England yet. A theme this World Cup seems to be the less fancied top tier sides building into the tournament whilst those coming in with form have not lived up to their expectation. A little unfair on SA and France as both have been brilliant but one must leave early. NZ fans were lambasting Foster after the opening game and now they’re nearly in the final. Wish we had a rubbish coach like him.

Matt Williams to take a break from obnoxious punditry for us to win 4 GrandSlams and a WC final?

Haha I was going to say he should lead the imaginary external review of Scotlands World Cup campaign.

First thing he does is ask Townsend to resign then. Then agrees not to fire him as long as Townsend stops working.

I think Townsend does have a weakness concerning Ireland. I know we've been very unlucky against them in the past but still. Something to do with the fact that he always beat them as a player, perhaps. The reverse Neil Francis, if you will.

[CaptainHaddock]

My issue with Townsend / this current Scotland set up remains our tactical naivety.

The ABs right from the off used some very well placed kicks to counter Ireland's rush defence. They'd clearly developed a plan to address it. They also had worked out an approach to deal with the Irish pods and playing the ball in behind. Their execution (and defence) was outstanding. We on the other hand went out and seemed to just do what we'd done before against them which had, unsurprisingly, the same outcome.

Argentina showed the importance of kicking your points and staying in the game. SA today put the French under immense pressure under the ball (clearly preplanned). The French meanwhile kicked in behind SA fantastically to blunt the rush defence (1st half).

We don't seem to bring that kind of smarts/variation to our game. Is that a coaching issue or is it the players?

[George Carlin]

My issue with Townsend / this current Scotland set up remains our tactical naivety.

The ABs right from the off used some very well placed kicks to counter Ireland's rush defence. They'd clearly developed a plan to address it. They also had worked out an approach to deal with the Irish pods and playing the ball in behind. Their execution (and defence) was outstanding. We on the other hand went out and seemed to just do what we'd done before against them which had, unsurprisingly, the same outcome.

Argentina showed the importance of kicking your points and staying in the game. SA today put the French under immense pressure under the ball (clearly preplanned). The French meanwhile kicked in behind SA fantastically to blunt the rush defence (1st half).

We don't seem to bring that kind of smarts/variation to our game. Is that a coaching issue or is it the players?

Il Capitano - you need to post here more often.

It's a coaching issue, simple. Coaches coach tactics and that is a tactic. The whole thing smacks of Toonie not believing that he needs a plan B and we all know that at the highest echelons of the game, that's not enough. What took Ireland to 17 wins on the bounce was their abilty to change tactics and problem-solve mid game. I haven't seen that from a Scotland squad in a while.

[CaptainHaddock]

My issue with Townsend / this current Scotland set up remains our tactical naivety.

The ABs right from the off used some very well placed kicks to counter Ireland's rush defence. They'd clearly developed a plan to address it. They also had worked out an approach to deal with the Irish pods and playing the ball in behind. Their execution (and defence) was outstanding. We on the other hand went out and seemed to just do what we'd done before against them which had, unsurprisingly, the same outcome.

Argentina showed the importance of kicking your points and staying in the game. SA today put the French under immense pressure under the ball (clearly preplanned). The French meanwhile kicked in behind SA fantastically to blunt the rush defence (1st half).

We don't seem to bring that kind of smarts/variation to our game. Is that a coaching issue or is it the players?

Il Capitano - you need to post here more often.

It's a coaching issue, simple. Coaches coach tactics and that is a tactic. The whole thing smacks of Toonie not believing that he needs a plan B and we all know that at the highest echelons of the game, that's not enough. What took Ireland to 17 wins on the bounce was their abilty to change tactics and problem-solve mid game. I haven't seen that from a Scotland squad in a while.

I tend to agree that its coaching - as it doesn't seem like we're trying to do something different and then just failing to execute (which would point at players rather than coaches). My other take away from the weekend is that the top 4 teams currently bring a level of intensity and accuracy that we aren't able to consistently do. The quality and ferocity of their defence has been another level matched only perhaps by their ruthlessness in keeping the score board ticking over. For us to close that gap is hard but I think that we have a team of players who can get us close - I'd just like to see a coaching team that helps them do that.

[Highland Shaun]

David Sole had an interesting take in his Sunday Post column earlier today and something he suggested regarding Townsend had me thinking, what would the posters on here have to say about this said point so here goes.

He suggested a) that 6yrs in the position is too long in his opinion and b) maybe he should be removed to an upstairs position where he can sort out the grassroots etc at the SRU in order to not have the need to pay him off so what are your thoughts on this point?

I know I've always backed Gregor and still do but I do actually think that David makes a very good suggestion here but the question then would be, who would become our next head coach because its way to early for Franco Smith?

[NeilyBroon]

Why not promote tandy? He's undoubtedly the coach who's had the biggest impact on this group.

I'm sure the SRU probably have some idea of who their next man for the job is, it's probably Franco though. I'd rather he stays with Glasgow but I don't think he'd be a bad choice either.

[BigGee]

Tandy was head coach at the Ospreys and it did not go so well, so msybe not head coach material.

Franco certainly is and has international experience already with Italy.

It would be nice to see whst he can do with Glasgow though first after his very promising first season. If he can deliver the potential there then he may well be the candidate for the Scotland job down the line.

It's not going to happen now though, let's see how this next 6N goes.

[EST]

My issue with Townsend / this current Scotland set up remains our tactical naivety.

The ABs right from the off used some very well placed kicks to counter Ireland's rush defence. They'd clearly developed a plan to address it. They also had worked out an approach to deal with the Irish pods and playing the ball in behind. Their execution (and defence) was outstanding. We on the other hand went out and seemed to just do what we'd done before against them which had, unsurprisingly, the same outcome.

Argentina showed the importance of kicking your points and staying in the game. SA today put the French under immense pressure under the ball (clearly preplanned). The French meanwhile kicked in behind SA fantastically to blunt the rush defence (1st half).

We don't seem to bring that kind of smarts/variation to our game. Is that a coaching issue or is it the players?

Bang on the money for me, the Boks and Ireland knew exactly what was coming and set up accordingly - so tactically naïve.

[Tramptastic]

Scotlands chosen tactics were so at odds with where their greatest wins have come from in the past decade - a strong kicking game.

Dismantling England in 2018? strong kicking game, manipulating the backfield until space opened and Finn could fire the ball into space. Hogg and Russell dominated the tactical kicking. The same again in 2021, 22 and 23.

The last time Scotland beat Ireland was in 2017. Again, a solid kicking game combined with some neat set piece plays to get points on the board.

France multiple times over the past 5 years. The big wins have come from solid defence, manipulating the backfield and counter attacking when space opens up.

It's frustrating because as soon as those wins happen we think "oh fab, we've got our groove back, its pragmatic but opens up space and allows for silky running and passing into space. This is us." Subsequently Scotland then go on in the next tournament to throw ALL of it out the window and declare "we don't need pragmatism, we have the fastest running rugby of all time".

My favourite Scotland game of the past decade isnt the 38-38 draw at twickenham or even the 6-11 win at twickenham. Its the 25-13 win at home against England. Scotland dominated every facet of play in a mature, physical, dynamic manner and played the ball when it was on. Smart and in control for 80 minutes, they never looked like losing.

So the players can play that way. The coaches can instruct them to play that way. They can win that way. Why the hell, after 2019 RWC, are we STILL trying to play like that? eurgh.

And for all the pundits saying "we cant play like SA or Ireland do because we don't have the player size" - absolute tosh. Our pack weight variance is within the realms of a couple of kilos. Against Ireland our pack was heavier by 5kgs! The boys are large enough, get em coached to be more dynamic in the contact area.

[Tramptastic]

David Sole had an interesting take in his Sunday Post column earlier today and something he suggested regarding Townsend had me thinking, what would the posters on here have to say about this said point so here goes.

He suggested a) that 6yrs in the position is too long in his opinion and b) maybe he should be removed to an upstairs position where he can sort out the grassroots etc at the SRU in order to not have the need to pay him off so what are your thoughts on this point?

I know I've always backed Gregor and still do but I do actually think that David makes a very good suggestion here but the question then would be, who would become our next head coach because its way to early for Franco Smith?

Nah thats old school SRU thinking - failed at your first job? nae bother, jobs for the boys eh?

6 years isn't too long as long as the coach in question is learning and adapting or innovating well to push the team on. Gatland was very successful over 3 world cups for wales, arguably 4 now! Steve Hansen had 8 years as head coach but 8 years previously as assistant(?).

The thing is, if we'd been on the other side of the draw, Scotland would likely be in a semi final this weekend. We'd all be dreading a doing by South Africa or New Zealand. But we'd still measure it as successful. The reality is though that we were drawn in a pool with SA and Ireland thanks to our rankings at the time, derived mainly by crud tactics in Japan 2019. Go figure. Toonie had to reap what he'd sown in 2019. No effort made to change tact for SA, or if there was, it wasn't obvious.

[George Carlin]

We should always look to expand the roster of good coaches we have in the country, rather than just give the existing staff new business cards, a car parking space in a new town and tell them to start on Monday.

I have confidence in our ability to find quality - Franco is a very good example of that. For the international side, we are ranked 5th in the world and would be a very nice prospect for a pro franchise coach in either hemisphere to step up. Does Dodson McScrooge have the wide angle lens to see this as an option?

Or will we be back to Quasi-McBumfertie? Tweed and Laphraoig in FES' Stockbridge members' clubs? Time will tell but optimism is always the order of the day.

[George Carlin]

I see that that Rory Sutherland has signed for Oyonnax.

Beautiful part of the world although the club were scraping the bottom of the table last season.

[NeilyBroon]

We should always look to expand the roster of good coaches we have in the country, rather than just give the existing staff new business cards, a car parking space in a new town and tell them to start on Monday.

I have confidence in our ability to find quality - Franco is a very good example of that. For the international side, we are ranked 5th in the world and would be a very nice prospect for a pro franchise coach in either hemisphere to step up. Does Dodson McScrooge have the wide angle lens to see this as an option?

Or will we be back to Quasi-McBumfertie? Tweed and Laphraoig in FES' Stockbridge members' clubs? Time will tell but optimism is always the order of the day.

Graham rowntree is contracted until 2025 with Munster...

I expect Bryan Easson will get a move to the men's in order to be suitably parochial though.

Maybe a top14 coach would work? Would be interesting to have a French coach, I'd say that's the style we should aspire to most as it matches up with how we want to play with a bit more edge.

[bsando]

I’d happily wait for Clark Laidlaw. He seems like a brilliant future option.

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