Ulster 2023/2024 Season

First topic message reminder :

For the good, the bad and the ugly of Ulster rugby this season. Lets hope mostly good.

Whatever the debates over what happened with Izzy's tackle which deserved to be looked at by the TMO at the very least, the better team did not win on the night. Ulster absolutely burgled that win out of fortitude more than anything else.
There's very few positives I could take from that performance. Addison looks like grabbing moments of his old form and Lowry looks a real little menace again. Sheridan and McCann are consistently excellent and Dave Ewers decided to start playing a bit.
There that's enough positivity for a Monday.

To be fair Pete every team burgles a game now and again.  It happens and does make for great drama.  

I also don't think from a reset point of view it would be the worst thing in the world if ulster didnt make the top 8, especially given we have 3 URC teams in the challenge cup still so could end up with just the top 7 qualifying for the champions cup.  

I know financially it would be a disaster but I think it would just allow the team to take a big break this summer and start fresh for pre season next year and put this year to bed.

Welshmushroom wrote:I know Burns isnt that highly rated by most Ulster fans but you could tell the difference his experience and skill made for them when he came off the bench.

He is the best 10 at Ulster.
I think he is well summed up by the following

'A decent URC level Fly Half but comes up short of what you need for Europe and winning trophies'

carpet baboon wrote:On the subject of the ref, the penalty count was 7-11 not that great a disparity, did he miss things? Yes like Cardiff players entering the ruck from the side and on at least two occasions actually joining the ruck from Ulster's side.
Is Adamson a good ref? No. Is he a corrupt ref like some of the more "interesting" twitter accounts have been claiming,? Also no.

A more interesting stat is turnovers. Cardiff won 19 turnovers, but didn't make them count, possession and territory were pretty even, but a couple of crucial lineouts were fluffed by Cardiff.

It was a game of two teams not at there best desperately looking for a win.

And as for the ending, carre had him lined up and should have smashed Mcilroy into next week. Swiping his pig paw at the ball always ran the risk of it going wrong.

+1 to the entire message

[quote="Welshmushroom"]To be fair Pete every team burgles a game now and again.  It happens and does make for great drama.  

I remember vaguely us being burgled one friday night by Edinburgh if memory serves me correctly. There were refereeing mistakes all over the park and a couple of absolute stone cold match killers that handed the match to Edinburgh. The ref on the occasion, Nigel Owens. Even the very best make mistakes so Adamson missing Izuchukwu incident can be dismissed as one of those nights for Cardiff fans.

I don't want to even consider not being in Europe next year but unless the season run in proves anything different I don't think we are at that level right now. I've often thought in the hard times that a drop to the challenge cup level might bode well for the development of the young player base etc but I am still going to refuse to think about that happening just for now. I'll reconsider after the last game of the season

Aside from the financial aspect, would it be that bad to play a season in the Challenge Cup? Not sure it would help playing Champions rugby and losing a ton of games. At least the Challenge Cup can give them a breather to try to play some squad players and new guys.

It seems to be confirmed thar we're taking Ed Byrne, Jack Murphy, Wilhelm de Klerk and Sam Berman from Leinster. Ed Byrne's a solid player to get I reckon.

The three Academy players are as good as in the bag but I would not cheer too much about Ed Byrne just yet.

Munster and some English clubs also interested.

Cruden not coming - which is a relief to me.

We are definitely in for a LH and a 10 which is good news.

Rumours Hume's injury not looking good.

Bad news on Hume. But it does give an opportunity for Postlethwaite to play out McCloskey. That's one big midfield

I didn't want to drag it back up, but really those three decisions are blatant shockers. Apologies, I haven't had a chance to discuss it since the weekend.

1. Cooney knocked the ball on at the lineout before an Ulster try.
2. Ulster player clearly kicked the ball out of Thomas Young's hand who was in the process of scoring a try. This wasn't on purpose but I believe it's a penalty try. If not, it's at least Cardiff's possession!
3. Carre knock on - there wasn't anything conclusive there and ball seemed to go backwards.

I can understand if Cardiff are fuming, and supposedly even the WRU have commented! There have previously been some ugly decisions in a few Ulster vs Scarlets fixtures as well, the officiating needs to do better across the board.
That said, Cardiff have really poor defence and they're still inaccurate at critical locations on the pitch. They haven't fixed that and unsurprisingly they keep losing. I thought Ulster had some good periods but mostly they were poor too, Cardiff won't get a better opportunity than that. It's not a bad position for Ulster to be in because in theory they should improve with incoming players and coaches.

To be fair though Mikey there's a number of games in a season where a ref has a bad game.

But I will say Adamson seems to have a lot of them. I've no problem with refs getting it wrong as they are human. But I do think if refs are found to be doing this regular (and i would suggest Adamson seems to do this a lot), they should be stood down and moved to lower leagues until their performances improve.

But I only think this is possible if they are full time pro refs and I dont think they are full time currently.

mikey_dragon wrote:I didn't want to drag it back up, but really those three decisions are blatant shockers. Apologies, I haven't had a chance to discuss it since the weekend.

1. Cooney knocked the ball on at the lineout before an Ulster try.
2. Ulster player clearly kicked the ball out of Thomas Young's hand who was in the process of scoring a try. This wasn't on purpose but I believe it's a penalty try. If not, it's at least Cardiff's possession!
3. Carre knock on - there wasn't anything conclusive there and ball seemed to go backwards.

1. Agreed
2. I think the doubt is Izzy did not deliberately kick it out Young's hands
3. Nigel Owens said it was the correct decision. It went backwards because it hit McIlroy.

On the cooney knock on or not, did he even touch the ball? As not seen any angle that shows it either way?

With regards stepping refs.down, I think the issue is who would replace him? There seems to be a lack of decent officials anywhere
It's not just a URC problem it's across all leagues. us PRL , super rugby not sure about french as I dont follow that as much.
And why would anyone want to step up when one bad game and certain vocal minorities start screaming about you being corrupt.

I'm in agreement we need better officials, but with the current atmosphere around it who in their right mind would want to?

Not just rugby. Look at the recent stuff in the football prem,.
You honestly couldn't pay me enough

geoff999rugby wrote:
2. I think the doubt is Izzy did not deliberately kick it out Young's hands

The point of it being accidental doesn't come into it.  The law of this rule is black and white.  Dislodging the ball with your foot/legs in the act of someone placing the ball over the try line is illegal.  It's not a subjective law.  Nigel Owens confirmed this too and basically pointed this out and I would imagine he would know.

Should have ended up a penalty try as no one else was anywhere close to stop young either.

But mistakes like these happen.  My surprise about this was that none of the team of 4 refs clearly knew this law.  At the very least those guys need to be shown the law so this doesnt happen again.

Of Jack Murphy, Wilhelm de Klerk and Sam Berman, anyone want to guess/predict how far they might be from our match day squads next year? Are they all very young still?

Have any of them made any Leinster match day squads yet?

Are we still a few seasons away from benefiting from their talents?

I'd assume so as i cant see them listed in the senior academy. Might be several years before they are genuine options.

Welshmushroom wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:
2. I think the doubt is Izzy did not deliberately kick it out Young's hands

The point of it being accidental doesn't come into it.  The law of this rule is black and white.  Dislodging the ball with your foot/legs in the act of someone placing the ball over the try line is illegal.  It's not a subjective law.  Nigel Owens confirmed this too and basically pointed this out and I would imagine he would know.

Should have ended up a penalty try as no one else was anywhere close to stop young either.

But mistakes like these happen.  My surprise about this was that none of the team of 4 refs clearly knew this law.  At the very least those guys need to be shown the law so this doesnt happen again.

THe law includes the word 'kicking' not 'dislodging'.
Kicking implies a deliberate act

Welshmushroom wrote:I'd assume so as i cant see them listed in the senior academy.  Might be several years before they are genuine options.  

That's because they will joining next year and the Academy list for next year has not been announced.

geoff999rugby wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:
2. I think the doubt is Izzy did not deliberately kick it out Young's hands

The point of it being accidental doesn't come into it.  The law of this rule is black and white.  Dislodging the ball with your foot/legs in the act of someone placing the ball over the try line is illegal.  It's not a subjective law.  Nigel Owens confirmed this too and basically pointed this out and I would imagine he would know.

Should have ended up a penalty try as no one else was anywhere close to stop young either.

But mistakes like these happen.  My surprise about this was that none of the team of 4 refs clearly knew this law.  At the very least those guys need to be shown the law so this doesnt happen again.

THe law includes the word 'kicking' not 'dislodging'.
Kicking implies a deliberate act

Nigel Owen says it was a penalty at the bare minimum. Are you suggesting that his application of the law is incorrect?

geoff999rugby wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:I'd assume so as i cant see them listed in the senior academy.  Might be several years before they are genuine options.  

That's because they will joining next year and the Academy list for next year has not been announced.

Sorry I meant the Leinster Senior Academy Squad for this year.

1 From what I gather, Cooney knocked on but you cannot go back more than 2 phases.
TMO can review
"All Clear and Obvious knock-on or throw forward infringements within two phases leading to a possible try. "



2 planet rugby describe it well
"With thirteen minutes to go, Cardiff flanker Thomas Young is set away down the right towards the corner. He is pursued by Ulster’s Cormac Izuchukwu. Young’s stutter-step gives him an edge in the foot race, but Izuchukwu manages to grab Young’s waistband and swings his body around Young by it.

Young stands strong for a moment despite this before slumping to his knees. Izuchukwu’s bodyweight is still swinging around so that at this point his legs are now in front of his body. Young reaches out forward to place the ball down but Izuchukwu’s legs are so far round now that his feet are by the ball. As Young goes to place the ball, Izuchukwu’s left foot (his right has swing round beyond the ball and is under Young’s body) connects with the ball and knocks it out of Young’s clutches. The referee awards a knock-on, and the TMO decides he is right.

Law 21.10: If a tackled player is in the act of reaching out to ground the ball for a try or touch down, defending players may knock the ball backwards or pull the ball from the player’s possession but must not kick or attempt to kick the ball.
But in this case, the decision is very subjective: Izuchukwu’s ‘kick’ is hardly a classic one, after all, he is in the act of tackling and is unsighted for much of the action. There is no law, or protocol, or framework defining what a kick or attempt to kick of this kind might look like.
It puts the officials in a highly unenviable position of having to subjectively judge that. It is quite plausible that Izuchukwu is trying to get his feet under the ball – this is where his right foot ends up – which would be perfectly legal.

There is, in slow motion, a possible jabbing movement with his left foot however, while a freeze-frame of the moment his foot makes contact shows him clearly looking at the vicinity of the ball. But at real speed, neither of these are at all obvious, especially not the jabbing motion. And although perceivable in slow-motion, neither is clear and obvious even then. So, the officials have, in this case, to stand by their on-field decision, which was that Izuchukwu did not commit a penalisable offence.

3.The replay is pretty conclusive: Carre touches the ball before McIlroy.

In less of a position to regather than Stockdales yellow card for same offence, so yellow card and penalty the only real option

All marginal decisions and all went Ulster's way but it each case you can see why.

As mentioned if the Cooney knock on occurred more than 2 phases earlier the referee could not call it.
I simply don't believe Izzy intended to kick the ball, on that basis it was not a penalty.
As to Carre the hand went out, the ball changed direction and McIlroy was nowhere near catching it - why?
Also, instinctively 3 Ulster player instantly claimed a knock on.

Very rough on Cardiff but not necessarily wrong in each case.

Bad news on Hume looks like an ACL
If true we wont see him for nearly all of 2024.

If Addison goes we are down to 2 credible centres staying and Kok coming in.

If Hume is out long term Berman and DeKlerk could be getting a decent amount of game time

Is Addison definitely leaving? They might offer him a 1 year contract with the current injury to Hume.

I would certainly give Addison another year. This feels like one of his longest injury free spells in years! *touch wood*

Kingshu wrote:1 From what I gather, Cooney knocked on but you cannot go back more than 2 phases.
TMO can review
"All Clear and Obvious knock-on or throw forward infringements within two phases leading to a possible try. "



2 planet rugby describe it well
"With thirteen minutes to go, Cardiff flanker Thomas Young is set away down the right towards the corner. He is pursued by Ulster’s Cormac Izuchukwu. Young’s stutter-step gives him an edge in the foot race, but Izuchukwu manages to grab Young’s waistband and swings his body around Young by it.

Young stands strong for a moment despite this before slumping to his knees. Izuchukwu’s bodyweight is still swinging around so that at this point his legs are now in front of his body. Young reaches out forward to place the ball down but Izuchukwu’s legs are so far round now that his feet are by the ball. As Young goes to place the ball, Izuchukwu’s left foot (his right has swing round beyond the ball and is under Young’s body) connects with the ball and knocks it out of Young’s clutches. The referee awards a knock-on, and the TMO decides he is right.

Law 21.10: If a tackled player is in the act of reaching out to ground the ball for a try or touch down, defending players may knock the ball backwards or pull the ball from the player’s possession but must not kick or attempt to kick the ball.
But in this case, the decision is very subjective: Izuchukwu’s ‘kick’ is hardly a classic one, after all, he is in the act of tackling and is unsighted for much of the action. There is no law, or protocol, or framework defining what a kick or attempt to kick of this kind might look like.
It puts the officials in a highly unenviable position of having to subjectively judge that. It is quite plausible that Izuchukwu is trying to get his feet under the ball – this is where his right foot ends up – which would be perfectly legal.

There is, in slow motion, a possible jabbing movement with his left foot however, while a freeze-frame of the moment his foot makes contact shows him clearly looking at the vicinity of the ball. But at real speed, neither of these are at all obvious, especially not the jabbing motion. And although perceivable in slow-motion, neither is clear and obvious even then. So, the officials have, in this case, to stand by their on-field decision, which was that Izuchukwu did not commit a penalisable offence.

3.The replay is pretty conclusive: Carre touches the ball before McIlroy.

In less of a position to regather than Stockdales yellow card for same offence, so yellow card and penalty the only real option

I actually dont think he did kick nor attempt to kick the ball. Kicking the ball is obviously a deliberate action and it is usually obvious if someone has tried to kick a ball as opposed to the ball hitting their leg. If it isnt obvious then why would we expect the refs to give it.

So from those descriptions you seem to be saying Nigel Owens (one of the best refs the games produced in the last 20 years) is wrong with his view on this incident.

He did clarify as well intent does not come into that particular law.

I just find it interesting that one of the top refs the game ever produced is being discounted on the basis of articles from Planet Rugby. Didnt know they had a history of officiating rugby matches.

Welshmushroom wrote:So from those descriptions you seem to be saying Nigel Owens (one of the best refs the games produced in the last 20 years) is wrong with his view on this incident.

He did clarify as well intent does not come into that particular law.  

I just find it interesting that one of the top refs the game ever produced is being discounted on the basis of articles from Planet Rugby.  Didnt know they had a history of officiating rugby matches.

Personally I don't really care that much what Nigel Owens thinks, he doesn't always get it right despite the pedestal he seems to have been placed on by world rugby.

If intent doesn't come into the law then the law should be reworded in my view because the word kick by itself by most definitions implies some sort of intent.

The two match refs involved in the game didn't see it as an obvious enough infringement to warrant a penalty try, that's good enough for me.

It comes down to is all contact with the foot to a ball a kick?
I don't think it is and theres plenty of examples of ball and foot contact that isn't a kick.
But without a definition its a grey area, and open to interpretation.
If not then you have to guage if the was a kick, or a legal contact of ball and foot.

The match day ref, planet rugby and many others reach the conclusion that it was foot and ball contact but not a kick. Appears Owens believes it should be defined as a kick. Untill world rugby puts out a definative defination of what is a kick and was it in this case, it'll remain open to interpretation. My opinion is same as match day ref, player is entitled to try to place legs under to hold up the ball (is legal)

James Hume sustained a significant knee injury during Friday night's BKT United Rugby Championship game against Cardiff. He will see a specialist knee surgeon this week.

Jake Flannery (thigh), Tom O'Toole (ankle) and Nathan Doak (groin) also suffered injuries during the same game and their availability for selection will be monitored through this week.

Steven Kitshoff suffered a knee injury against Clermont in the EPCR Challenge Cup Quarter-Final fixture and following a scan and specialist opinion it has been determined that unfortunately this is season- ending.

DEFINITION of KICK - 'strike or propel forcibly with the foot'
DEFINITION of PROPEL - 'drive or push'
DEFINITION of STRIKE - 'hit forcibly and deliberately'

QED - the action has to be deliberate

Don't blame the officials blame a badly written rule.
If the intent is to include accidental action the lawbook needs to explicitly include it

Agree re Owens I don't think he has come across well as an expert since his retirement.
For what it is worth I think he was wrong about the Izzy tackle for the reasons given above

I also think he was wrong about the Carre incident - he thinks the officials were correct.
While in all probability it was a knock on, it cannot be considered clear and obvious which is, I believe is what the TMO was saying
(If Scotland's try against France was rules out then so should have this knock on)

I don't think Adamson got any of the three decisions wrong (provided there were more than two phases after the Coney knock on)
The TMO called the knock on from viewing the footage.

Don't get me wrong he is a weak referee - his referring of the break down was a joke - coming in at all angles was not penalised.
Cardiff benefitted from this far more than Ulster

With potentially Doak, Flannery and Hume out, the run-in could become even more of a struggle.

Lowry covers 10? Burns expected to play 80? Is Stewart Moore available? Or will we be looking at Addison in the centre?

4 teams all joint 8th on 39 pts. 6th and 7th place only a point higher on 40.

3 out of our 4 remaining fixtures sit above us in the league.

It's far from over, but I don't fancy our chances I must say.

My worst case scenario would be
Cooney, Burns, Lowry, McCloskey, Postlewaite, Stockdale, Addison
Bench: Shanahan, Marshall - (6 forwards)

Friday is key - win here and away to Scarlets and we are in with a decent chance.
Lose on Friday and we are screwed

Collapse2005 wrote:The two match refs involved in the game didn't see it as an obvious enough infringement to warrant a penalty try, that's good enough for me.

Oh that makes everything okay then!

Just so you know, Cardiff have officially made an official complaint

mikey_dragon wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:The two match refs involved in the game didn't see it as an obvious enough infringement to warrant a penalty try, that's good enough for me.

Oh that makes everything okay then!

Just so you know, Cardiff have officially made an official complaint

Good for them.

Can we then put in a complaint too?

Frans Ludeke being named by a few media outlets as Ulster's coach next season. One saying Ulster have secured him.

carpet baboon wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:The two match refs involved in the game didn't see it as an obvious enough infringement to warrant a penalty try, that's good enough for me.

Oh that makes everything okay then!

Just so you know, Cardiff have officially made an official complaint

Good for them.

Can we then put in a complaint too?

May as well, the officiating is poor for everyone not just Cardiff. I think some ref's need to be held accountable rather than everyone just forget about it.

Pete330v2 wrote:Frans Ludeke being named by a few media outlets as Ulster's coach next season. One saying Ulster have secured him.

Good coach with plenty of experience.

Rumoured Murphy offered one year but wants at least two

My main gripe with Adamson is he rarely refs the offside line. I lost counted after 10 offences by Ulster on Friday (none got picked up) and aside from 1 or 2 in the second half he was awful at not enforcing the rule. To be honest some of the offsides became really blatant as well. I'm not knocking Ulster here as once you know you can get away with it you will do it all day.

My issue here is not refing the offside line gives defences the advantage. Personally I would bin people after the second or third offence as teams would stop doing this and would open up the game a bit.

Welshmushroom wrote:My main gripe with Adamson is he rarely refs the offside line.  I lost counted after 10 offences by Ulster on Friday (none got picked up) and aside from 1 or 2 in the second half he was awful at not enforcing the rule.  To be honest some of the offsides became really blatant as well.  I'm not knocking Ulster here as once you know you can get away with it you will do it all day.

My issue here is not refing the offside line gives defences the advantage.  Personally I would bin people after the second or third offence as teams would stop doing this and would open up the game a bit.

I fully agree, we were offside as he let us. Just as Cardiff didn't appear to have any problems entering rucks from the side/our side or cleaning out players before they got to the ruck, as again they were allowed.

We do need better refs, so do the prem (7 mins yellow card? How does that happen?) and super rugby. The problem is we don't seem to have any coming through.

World rugby and all the unions need to do something. Not sure what that is, but something

Pete330v2 wrote:Frans Ludeke being named by a few media outlets as Ulster's coach next season. One saying Ulster have secured him.

Has a good resume. Looks to be a good coach.
But I think we would be making a mistake not giving the job to Murphy. We are going to have a lot of kids playing for us next season, and he nows a lot of them.

But maybe a complete outsider coming in is what we need. Everyone starts with a clean slate.

Will be interesting whatever happens

Frans Ludeke is an odd one. I guess I kinda assumed that Murphy's son signing was a sign his Dad was staying. But I guess at that age, and especially if he's your coach, you wouldn't want to live 'at home'. Half wondered of the Murphy's were planning o relocate as a family.

I don't know much about Ludeke. I do tend to find coaches hard to get excited about. I'm sure some of you are better able to read resume's and make judgements than myself.

All I know is I was quite happy knowing Murphy has u20 success, and would be working with a fair few youngsters he had that u20 success with.

But hey, maybe that's not enough.

I'll happily admit I have no expertise in judging which coach would be better.

RM did say that he was looking at houses in Belfast. Wondered at the time was he coutnting his chickens or had the IRFU pretty much told him the job is his unless he really messes up.

Lideke was coach for Bulls most successfull spell, and in Japan has brought a smaller team up to win the title (not sure if they had extra money). But is very experienced and great track record, is a coup for Ulster, may RM will stay as a senior coach?

Ludeke worries me

No experience of the European game
Not familiar with working to a tight budget - Japan is the land of plenty
I still maintain Japan is not pressured rugby as much about razzamataz as the hard edge of competition

Id rather take Murphy

On t'other forum seems to think ludeke isnt going to happen.

Seen KOTH saying - GOOD

A little squad stat worth bearing in mind - ages in July 2024
All those over 28

Warwick 33
Moore 33
Andrew 30
Herring 34
O'Connor 31 *
Henderson 32
Ewers 33 *
Matty Rea 30
Shanahan 30 *
McCloskey 31
Addison 31 *

* situation uncertain with respect to next year
Warwick, Herring, Moore, Henderson - that 4 of (arguably) our best front 5
3 of them definitely are first XV players

Christ I didn't realise Matty rea was that age.

(15-9): Mike Lowry, Rob Baloucoune, Will Addison, Stuart McCloskey, Jacob Stockdale, Billy Burns, John Cooney;

(1-8): Eric O’Sullivan, Tom Stewart, Scott Wilson, Harry Sheridan, Alan O’Connor (C), Dave Ewers, Reuben Crothers, David McCann.

Replacements: John Andrew, Andrew Warwick, James French, Cormac Izuchukwu, Greg Jones, Dave Shanahan, Luke Marshall, Ethan McIlroy.