Ulster 2023/2024 Season

First topic message reminder :

For the good, the bad and the ugly of Ulster rugby this season. Lets hope mostly good.

Would have definitely started Izzy for Al. Hope Crothers has a good game (wasn't he a slam winning captain under Murphy?)

Based on their peaks, that's actually a fantastic backline. Best backline of recent years... at each of their peaks.
What's the chances they might somehow click tomorrow night?

As good a backline we've put out all season.
Concerned with French and Jones on the bench though. Zero impact for me.

I find that selection very interesting

Is O'Sullivan going to be retained after all ?
Delighted for Crothers - only got 6 mins before a bad injury in his first game

Also starting to wonder how many are really going.
According to the white smoke we are losing, at least, 5 of the following.

M.Moore
French
McDonald
O'Sullivan
O'Connor
Ewers
Jones
Shanahan
Addison

However 7 of them are in the 23 this week - strikes me as a little odd
Has the end of the Kitshoff contract released up some cash to retain some ?
Also reported Cruden was offered £150,000 - that doesn't make sense for the simple reason it would not be a million miles from the Burns contract.
Was releasing Burns a McFarland decision which Murphy things was a mistake and he has to get someone else in ?

Of course possible retirements by O'Connor and Ewers may force Ulster's hand in a couple of instances.
Also 5 Scrum halves in a paired back squad doesn't make sense

We will all know soon enough

Strange indeed Geoff.

Have we considered Burns was pissed off with the coaching setup, and had opted to leave prior to McFarland leaving, and the contract was already signed?

Or perhaps there was a verbal agreement that some other Irish out-half was going to move, and they've since reneged on that, leaving Ulster in the lurch? Who knows!

I would take that Cruden offer with a pinch of salt though. Just seems off, given the talk about financial problems.

I would be curious though, if Ulster made an offer, does that imply IRFU have given us the go ahead for an overseas 10? And if so, is our search still ongoing?

Was just thinking when new head coaches Cullan and Folly struggled in their first year, the IRFU brought in Lancaster as senior coach, and Eramus in as DoR to help guide the inexperienced head coaches.

RM has no experience as a head coach, could the IRFU having learned from past experience that newly promoted head coaches need someone experienced to guide them and be lining up Lideke as DoR.
Lideke DoR
RM as head coach

Would tick the boxes we want someone with experience and proven track record, and someone who has a track record in developing young players.

Throw in Payne as senior coach and it the start of a fantastic coaching ticket.

We cant/wont pay out the money needed to attract three coaches of that stature

Jared Payne was also linked to the Ulster role, wonder if there's much truth in that.

Murphy and Payne appear to be the two names in the frame

geoff999rugby wrote:We cant/wont pay out the money needed to attract three coaches of that stature

Remember the IRFU paid to get Prendergast out of contact for Munster

"IRFU are likely to have had to pay some form of compensation for Prendergast’s early release."

Appears IRFU are willing to pay to get the correct coaching team for a province.

The effort for the full 80 is something we haven't seen for a while. 8 weeks ago we would have fallen apart in the second half.

Wilson impressive again. And I thought EoS was showing glimpse of what got him an Ireland cap a few years back. If Richie can get him playing again we.should hopefully keep hold.of him. Both props work around the park was very good. Scrum Time needs a bit of work.

Izzy was great of the bench again. Him and Sheridan make a very dynamic second row.
McCann just showing his ability again. He has to be on tour in the summer.
Crothers showing why he's highly rated, didn't look out of place.
Ewers absolutely emptying himself. If he is retiring at the end of the season looks like he wants to go down swinging.

Cooney rolling back the years, great to see. Will showing that when he's fit he's still a top player (will forgive him handing them a try) worth keeping if he stays injury free.

The back 3 looked the best they have all season.
Stockdale may be a bit slower but showed he's still a dangerous carrier, was it a HIA he went off with?
Rob was great in the air and made a brilliant tackle at the end.
And dancing feet Lowry looks full of the confidence, great pass for wills try.

Even the parts of.the bench that concerned me (Jones , French) came on and threw themselves into everything. Maybe trying to play for a job next year but was great to see.

Was it a perfect performance? No but it was one of the best we have shown all season.

I'm actually starting to have some hope. Think Richie knows whats needed. Hope he does get the job full time

I hope he does too, we were excellent at times in attack last night, was the happiest I've been at a performance in a while.

Saying that the scrum needs some serious work and the defence is absolutely shocking, some great recovery tackles but that can't last forever so they need rid of Bell and get a proper defensive system in place.

Strange game for me - a number of worrying details but a lot more on the positive side
Our scrum was totally mullered - absolutely no idea how French got a penalty on a scrum -
Benetton were pushing straight and we were going back at a rate of knots.
Wilson was given a lesson in the scrum. It wont do him any harm.
Also was ripped of possession once or twice two often.
O'Connor was again a pale shade of his former self.
I cant share your enthusiasm for Ewers who was no more than ok
Jones did one good thing all game - he remains the waste of a contract.
Sheridan showed some inexperience for one of their tries.
The first up tackling was very weak in the first half.

Having said all that the positives were far more.
The biggest by far is they played as if they enjoyed it, they played for each other.
Commitment was total.
I put this down to one thing and one thing only - the change of head coach.

O'Sullivan is back from exile.
I strongly suspect that McFarland had him firmly in the- players to ditch column.
I believe Murphy wants to keep him.
Izzy again shows some real dynamism when coming on.
Sheridan and McCann are class pure and simple.
Cooney ran the show.
McCloskey breaking the gain line was crucial.
Addison, one big blunder apart, slotted in seamlessly at 13.
I think he was also a player in McFarland's get rid column
The back three all did well Lowry has been transformed since Murphy took over and that
was, by far, Stockdale and Baloucoune best performances of the season

Give Murphy the job now !

Of course we may well have to make some cutting but I suspect
Moore and McDonald will be here next year.
I now have to wonder if O'Sullivan and Addison might be as well

That leaves Jones, French and maybe Shanahan away.
Ewers and O'Connor maybe retiring
Is that enough to save the money we are expected to save?
Especially if a LH and a 10 are in the want to sign column

It was a game I was expecting, or more accurately hoping for a Ravenhill reaction to the pale imitations of performances we've sadly grown too used to. Boy was it it a very pleasant surprise. That's a very good Benneton side and they showed it, we were definitely the better side but not without flaws. The scrum getting stuck in reverse is a worry and there's the likes of Ewers who was signed as a big ball carrying 6 but our backline players broke the gainline more often.
Stockdale looked like the Stockdale of old and Addison looks like gaining his old form is a sure thing despite the silly offload. He was trying something to keep the ball alive and it was a blip in an otherwise great performance. Why was O'Sullivan left out in the cold? I thought he played really well despite scrumtime being a mess. Not having played in forever and then facing a Benneton scrum wouldn't have helped.
That performance could save the end of this and more importantly next season for us.

Should have added that Crothers was excellent.
After his very brief appearance against Connacht and then serious injury I was a bit concerned but he came back
to show what he can do.
A genuine open side with a far higher ceiling than Marcus Rea.

I also note that John Cooney has gone public stating it is only in the last few weeks he has started to enjoy his rugby.
You don't have to be a member of Mensa to work out why.

For me we dodged a bullet in not signing up Frans Ludeke

Bit surprised around the Wilson comments. He did have a good game in the loose but surely the bread and butter is the scrum for any tighthead. He is very young though so he has a ton of time to improve. But it is a position typically players take a lot longer to transition to in pro rugby. he probably needs the next couple of seasons in games where he can come off the bench.

I think the Ulster scrum probably isnt being helped in the second row.

URC is getting brutal in the tight 5 exchanges. There are some very good packs in this league now.....not to many soft games now.....

To be fair I think most of us did pick up on the scrummaging issues for Wilson.
It is also puts a bit of reality on his situation and that he needs to be carefully managed
Read posts on he wondering why he doesn't start most games - that would not be a good idea.
On the plus side/worrying side ? - he has on a number of occasions put in a stronger performance
in the scrum than O'Toole this year.

You are spot on regarding the second row - without Henderson we lack power
Sheridan is  4/6 rather than a full blown Lock
O'Connor adds very little these days

I would also mention Stewart is weak in the scrum.
We are noticeably stronger with Herring at hooker.

On a side note did EPCR actually confirm any changes to Euro qualification for next season. At the start of the year I believe the times put an article out saying they wanted to move to a 18 team champions cup setup with reduced numbers for qualification for Premiership rugby which they are fighting I believe as URC are arguing that 6 spaces in a 16 team league is not enough and they reckon Premiership rugby should not get 6 in a 10 team league.

But I havent found anything since the beginning of the year so can only assume no changes are being made. Any Ulster fans head anything on this?

Haven't heard anything on it since that 1 report, heard they are trying to make changes to when Last 16 and quarters happen so there's more time between them but that's about it

Just caught the Leinster - Stormers highlights.

Any likelihood Leinster might make it that easy when we play them?

Stormers were given those points with a bow on it.

Byrne looked to have had some decent moments though. Would be more than happy to take him up to Ulster.

Bryne is another steady, but at the same time run of the mill LH, same as Warwick and O'Sullivan.
At this stage covering LH with three solid, but unspectacular performers, is ok while we address more pressing areas.

The rumours are flying around that next year its
Murphy as Head Coach
Payne as his assistant
Grant staying

With Newby getting the chop I wondering how
Attack
Skills
Defence are covered?

Unless they pay him off we are lumbered with Bell as defence coach.
Best solution would be Payne overseeing defence and Bell put on gardening leave.
Payne could move into the attack coach next year when, possible, Soper either leaves or returns to skills coach.

If rumours are to be believed Payne is definitely the No 2 and Soper is being demoted

Demote Soper back to skills coach, wgere ge did a great job before.
Swap Bell and Faloon.
Willie Faloon is the Ulster Academy as Elite Performance Development Officer and was the defense coach with RM with the under 20s, last and I th8nk this season too.

As defense coach someone who has proven success with RM cant be a bad shout to give him a chance, just swap him and Bells jobs over.

Jackman generally gets good information and he seems to be confident that Richie has the job. Which is good news.
And if Payne is returning that's even better news.
But we still need a scrum coach. And to move Bell somewhere else, swapping him with Faloon makes sense, so in true Ulster fashion it won't happen.

But I see things moving in a better direction, and the players actually seem like they want to be on the pitch these last few games. Hopefully this week off we get a few more injured players back and Richie gets a good two weeks of his training and ideas into them.
Am I actually looking forward to our next game? I think so.
Has the fear of the team throwing away a good first half with a painfully dire second disappeared? Possibly.

clivemcl wrote:Just caught the Leinster - Stormers highlights.

Any likelihood Leinster might make it that easy when we play them?

Stormers were given those points with a bow on it.

Byrne looked to have had some decent moments though. Would be more than happy to take him up to Ulster.

I dont think its likely. It really will depend what happens in R16. Leinster may need to win that game to make sure they get a top 2 finish. Plus its the week before the Champions Cup so they may give the stars a run out to be ready for the Finals. Guess it will depend what happens in that Bulls vs Glasgow game. Munster are on their coat tails as well so I'm not sure they will have the luxury to rest to much if they want a home semi final in the URC.

R17 & R18 might get quite tough for Ulster. That said a big win against the Scarlets next round should see them through now I think....

Welshmushroom wrote:

clivemcl wrote:Just caught the Leinster - Stormers highlights.

Any likelihood Leinster might make it that easy when we play them?

Stormers were given those points with a bow on it.

Byrne looked to have had some decent moments though. Would be more than happy to take him up to Ulster.

I dont think its likely.  It really will depend what happens in R16.  Leinster may need to win that game to make sure they get a top 2 finish. Plus its the week before the Champions Cup so they may give the stars a run out to be ready for the Finals.  Guess it will depend what happens in that Bulls vs Glasgow game.  Munster are on their coat tails as well so I'm not sure they will have the luxury to rest to much if they want a home semi final in the URC.

R17 & R18 might get quite tough for Ulster.  That said a big win against the Scarlets next round should see them through now I think....

I reckon Leinster will be firing on all cylinders on the run up to the end of the URC which doesn't bode well for us. However, it was a strong Leinster side that we beat at the RDS earlier in the season. That being said it was at a time when the fledgling Leinster defence was easier to exploit with Burns' chip and cross field kicks. Ulster had Baloucoune, Stockdale and Addison who were all on questionable form, Addison in particular was looking like one to get rid of but is now a keeper. Ulster were also playing McFarland rugby which whilst effective on the night wouldn't be good enough against the well drilled Leinster defence that they have now. It could be tighter than we would have thought months ago but still one that'll be extremely difficult to get points from.
Anyway, first up we have a trip to Scarlets in a in a week and a half which is not a gimme and one that's yet another must win. A bonus point win is almost necessity at this stage but Ritchie's rugby looks like it's working much better and the players look so eager compared to the depressed squad of recent times.

I think a BP win will probably be enough as that takes you to 49 points.....I suspect that will be enough. I'm not sure Connacht will get near that with their run in so I suspect they may be the Irish side not to make the top 8.

Makes for a hell of drama in the run in though......URC for me is getting better every year....

Going to get even harder next year because Sharks recruitment this summer must make them a top 8 side. Means there will be even less wiggle room for top 8 spots next year.

Yeah the Saffers have brought a lot to the competition, the enforced raising of standards being the best of all. It was always expected and will improve every team's levels eventually. A hard fight's always a good thing.

So it looks like Max Deegan is coming to Ulster.
We were in for him in previous years and he said no.

My take is Baird's emergence means he sees Doris, Conan and Baird all ahead of him at 6/8 for Leinster.
In addition he sees Timoney, Prendergast, Coombes ahead of him for Ireland.
The penny has dropped - he needs be be a first XV regular.
Timoney is a different player to Deegan but Deegan is a much better player than Coombes and at least
as good as Prendergast.
Only 27 - great signing.

So looking at Ulster 4 to 8

Lock           Henderson, Izzy, Treadwell                                              
Back rowers who can play Lock - Sheridan, Matty Rea
First choice backrow - McCann, Deegan, Timoney
Open sides - Crothers, Reffell, Marcus Rea - in that order - Crothers has a ceiling way past the other two.
Development backrowers - McNabney, McLoughlin

Question marks about O'Connor and Ewers
Jones must surely be away

For me a starting line up of
Henderson, Sheridan, McCann, Deegan, Timoney
Bench: Izzy, Crothers

looks pretty good - being able to leave Treadwell out of the 23
I think Sheridan will end up playing 2nd row a lot

Great signing imo. If the squad stays fit, we'll definitely have impact off the bench in the 2nd row and back row.

To disagree slightly, he would have been a great signing last season. This season with many of the youngsters coming through it suggests that the backrow may not be the area of concern that it once was. It suggests we're caught in a timeloop forgetting what we actually need now rather than re-running the recruitment plan from 2022,

I'm completely speculating here on money but to spend £100-150k say on a player when we have such a desperate need for a 10. Would we have been better off saving that cash and getting a talented stopgap for a year or two?

All of that said, it's still a big positive to get anyone up. Breaking that glass border as it were and does give us more impact.

For all the talent we have coming through none of our full professionally contracted backrowers is a natural No8.
Also if Ewers goes and Sheridan is needed in the 2nd row Marty Rea plays and the only full contract cover are all open sides.
We need Deegan for both depth as well as quality.

Also signing one player does not mean we aren’t looking in other positions.
We clearly are looking for a 1 and a 10.

Rumour Casper Gabriel offered a contract by Ulster as well as Leinster.
He is undecided as the Ulster contract is more attractive.
Don’t know the details.

Welshmushroom wrote:So from those descriptions you seem to be saying Nigel Owens (one of the best refs the games produced in the last 20 years) is wrong with his view on this incident.

He did clarify as well intent does not come into that particular law.  

I just find it interesting that one of the top refs the game ever produced is being discounted on the basis of articles from Planet Rugby.  Didnt know they had a history of officiating rugby matches.

Seams like actually we were agreeing with Nigel Owens and only you disagreed.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/nigel-owens-ridiculous-accusations-make-29101956.amp

"It’s the same for the Thomas Young incident, when the ball was knocked out of his hands by an Ulster player’s boot as he looked to cross the line to score. Obviously, you cannot kick the ball out of a player’s hand, but was it intentional or was the defender just trying to swing himself underneath Young to prevent the try? Again it must come down to the referee’s interpretation - that is simply the nature of the game. To be honest, I am with the referee on this one, it doesn’t look like a deliberate act to kick the ball out of the player’s possession."

Guess you'll agree now it was and should have been a try. Unless your saying Nigel Owens (one of the best refs the games produced in the last 20 years) is wrong with his view on this incident?

geoff999rugby wrote:Rumour Casper Gabriel offered a contract by Ulster as well as Leinster.
He is undecided as the Ulster contract is more attractive.
Don’t know the details.

Even if both offers are identical, Ulster would make more sense, at Leinster ahead of him are Ross Byrne, Harry Byrne, (Frawley), Prendergast and Tector, at Ulster (Doak) (Lowry), Flannery and Murphy.

Player in brackets primary position isn't OH.

Can easily see why Ulster would be more appealing for a young OH looking for gametime.

Welshmushroom wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:
2. I think the doubt is Izzy did not deliberately kick it out Young's hands

The point of it being accidental doesn't come into it.  The law of this rule is black and white.  Dislodging the ball with your foot/legs in the act of someone placing the ball over the try line is illegal.  It's not a subjective law.  Nigel Owens confirmed this too and basically pointed this out and I would imagine he would know.

Should have ended up a penalty try as no one else was anywhere close to stop young either.

But mistakes like these happen.  My surprise about this was that none of the team of 4 refs clearly knew this law.  At the very least those guys need to be shown the law so this doesnt happen again.

THe law includes the word 'kicking' not 'dislodging'.
Kicking implies a deliberate act

Nigel Owen says it was a penalty at the bare minimum.  Are you suggesting that his application of the law is incorrect?

Nigel Owen’s has changed his mind and is now saying Adamson got it right.

I wonder why…. maybe he reread the rulebook and realised it has to be a deliberate act

Deegan looked good against the Stormers last week. He would be an excellent signing for sure.

But yea, I find it hard to be positive until we have a better solution at 10, otherwise, everything else will be stifled. Without a decent quality 10, I'm not sure signings like Deegan or Kok etc will have as much a positive impact. 10 is just so critical.

I must admit, I'm unfamiliar with Casper Gabriel. Is he similar age, or even younger then that Murphy's kid?

Either way, still a few years away from being senior players. And therefore, perhaps further supports the idea we may sign an Aaron Cruden type equivalent. A stop-gap (but decent) 10, perhaps closing out their career.

I can't help but feel we have either come into some financial investment, or that Burns' departure wasn't financial at all, as was initially suggested.

Gabriel is younger than Murphy.

Regardless of how good they are it’s going to take 2 or 3 years for them to be established.

So we need an interim player.
A 35 years old is not the answer.

clivemcl wrote:Deegan looked good against the Stormers last week. He would be an excellent signing for sure.

But yea, I find it hard to be positive until we have a better solution at 10, otherwise, everything else will be stifled. Without a decent quality 10, I'm not sure signings like Deegan or Kok etc will have as much a positive impact. 10 is just so critical.

I must admit, I'm unfamiliar with Casper Gabriel. Is he similar age, or even younger then that Murphy's kid?

Either way, still a few years away from being senior players. And therefore, perhaps further supports the idea we may sign an Aaron Cruden type equivalent. A stop-gap (but decent) 10, perhaps closing out their career.


I can't help but feel we have either come into some financial investment, or that Burns' departure wasn't financial at all, as was initially suggested.

Mentioned here before I don't think releasing Burns was financial, just that was the line given to/by fans.

Ulster did post a loss for last season, but Munster haven't posted a profit since 2011, and I don't recall in that time them having to release a first team player (esp one in such an important position). In fact they can actually afford the same player as a back up, somehow?

Which team do you think could afford Burns wages.
Munster wanting a back up, who haven't posted a profit since 2011, or Ulster wanting a first team player who posted one loss in the same period?

In theory Ulster should be in a much better position  to afford to keep Burns as a back up player, (if Munster can afford that) than Munster can.

Which makes me think that Ulster didn't even want to keep Burns as a back up player, with someone else coming in. My guess is that person wants to be guarenteed first choice OH, and Burns had to be moved to guarentee it. Otherwise it doesn't make any sense.

I do think its Frawley moving up, as it makes most sense, and Ulster have been looking at options in case that falls through. Cruden fits that profile of being spoken to about a maybe contract, ie if this falls through would you be intrested? As anyone playing at top level still wouldn't be intrested in maybes, they would want concrete offers.

I do think the budgets of all Provinces are being reduced next year and played a part
In squad cutbacks but there are some HUGE caveats

- Leinster get most 1st XV players paid for by CCs
- Leinster and Munster get private money, Ulster don’t
- Munster have, effectively, been allowed to write off their Thomson’s Park debt.
- The mutual termination of Kitshoff contract on its own probably covered the reduction in the Ulster contract
- Burns, O’Sullivan, Addison going were I believe McFarland decisions

Sadly I’m not convinced McFarland had the gumption to consider the consequences.
As a result I think Murphy may well be desperately trying to find a 10 rather than we have one lined up.

geoff999rugby wrote:I do think the budgets of all Provinces are being reduced next year and played a part
In squad cutbacks but there are some HUGE caveats

- Leinster get most 1st XV players paid for by CCs
- Leinster and Munster get private money, Ulster don’t
- Munster have, effectively, been allowed to write off their Thomson’s Park debt.
- The mutual termination of Kitshoff contract on its own probably covered the reduction in the Ulster contract
- Burns, O’Sullivan, Addison going were I believe McFarland decisions

Sadly I’m not convinced McFarland had the gumption to consider the consequences.
As a result I think Murphy may well be desperately trying to find a 10 rather than we have one lined up.

Munster Thomond park debt is a 1% intrest loan Munster were able to add their £6m operating loses to that loan. Plus when the IRFU give out an extra £2m to the provinces in 2016, Which was speculated to be an extra £500k per province Munster recieved £1.2m and Ulster recieved £260k.

Addison at the time a decision had to be made on his contract, noone thought it shouldbe renewed, there were concerns if he would stay fit, and his form was poor, so worries that he wouldn't get back to his previous levels, think at the time it was the right decision but thought at time it was coorect but could later appear worng depending on how he went, I cant blame Ulster for that one.

EoS does look to have been an error.

Burns if plan really was to go with Doak and Flannery was an obvious error, so bad I can't believe that it actaually was the plan, and not a cover for someone better coming in.

If Ewers leaves (and I think he will) it means Ulster have 2 NIQ spots for next season. And while finances may be tight, they arnt as bad a Munster who even with 2 NIQs budgets taken care off with private money, still have a more expensive squad.

You have more faith in McFarland than I do.

I don’t believe we had a 10 lined up when Burns was let go

Deegan is staying with Leinster!

mikey_dragon wrote:Deegan is staying with Leinster!

For the 4th year in a row.

Bloody hell. What do we have to do!

mikey_dragon wrote:Deegan is staying with Leinster!

He must have had his agent bluffing again for a few extra Euro.

Given the choice of picking the bench splinters out of your hole for the rest of your career or moving and being a leader of men and the first name on the team sheet I know what most players would choose.
Being part of the wider Leinster set up is obviously a pull to anyone but if you're a professional rugby player surely you want to be playing rugby. Fair play the lad but I'd have liked to see what he could have done in white.

Has Timoney got no relationship with any of these lads? Or is it in fact, that he has a negative relationship?

He surely came up along with a few of the other Leinster backrowers.
Like somebody said though, it's only 1.5hrs up the road - you can't imagine it would be THAT drastic a move in terms of family/friends etc.

Any other Leinster back row out of contract? Maybe he's staying because they know somebody else is away, even if not up to Ulster.

TBH I was convinced he was coming to you this year. 4 years in a row though, that must be annoying

I think it also goes to show Leinster are doing a lot right within their set-up and I know they've been coming in for some stick lately, all the guys are loyal. Most Irish players seem loyal though.

The biggest thing to take from this is if it's only Fissler reporting it 98% chance it's not true