World Cup losers Playoff 2023 - The unwanted game - England v Argentina

First topic message reminder :

England Team:

15 M Smith
14 F Steward
13 J Marchant,
12 M Tuilagi
11 H Arundell;
10 O Farrell (c),
9 B Youngs;

1 E Genge (vc),
2 T Dan,
3 W Stuart,
4 M Itoje,
5 O Chessum,
6 T Curry,
7 S Underhill,
8 B Earl.

Replacements: J George, B Rodd, D Cole, D Ribbans, L Ludlam, D Care, G Ford (vc), O Lawrence.

Cue the first scrum pen against the put-in all night

Imagine when we develop an attack...we'll be unreal.

But I'd like us to stop celebrating every fricken tackle and scrum win.

Cole and George surely need to play a couple of rested here and wear time away
Time to impress has gone. Just go for a cynical win.

mountain man wrote:If England do hold out and win I hope there's no big celebration at final whistle. Apart from first 15 mins they been poor.

They've made a habit of that recently

Geordie wrote:Imagine when we develop an attack...we'll be unreal.

But I'd like us to stop celebrating every fricken tackle and scrum win.

Lol.

Clear take out without the ball at the breakdown in their half

It was a knocking I thought from Steward I think.

To sausage it came off an Argentina knee....when it's a high potential knock on from Steward...he's checked the wrong thing.

Tmo said . Not to sausage. New phone...honest

Geordie wrote:Imagine when we develop an attack...we'll be unreal.

But I'd like us to stop celebrating every fricken tackle and scrum win.

We have a very limited gameplan and even then were second best in it last match. Was always a strategy that would need us to perform perfectly and SA to be off form to edge the game. It’s not so easy to just add an attack without losing elsewhere.

Far too many players asking for incidents to be checked.

mountain man wrote:Far too many players asking for incidents to be checked.

Berry is allowing it though. Needs to shut it down.

mountain man wrote:If England do hold out and win I hope there's no big celebration at final whistle. Apart from first 15 mins they been poor.

Earl will jump about and scream like he’s just won the euro millions

If Steward got a hand on that the Argentina outside backs would've definitely gone up. I think it was just a poor, floaty pass.

Argentina clearly pushed early! Twice!

No 7&1/2 wrote:To sausage it came off an Argentina knee....when it's a high potential knock on from Steward...he's checked the wrong thing.

Tmo said . Not to sausage. New phone...honest

Seems like you're willing England to lose ...

Christ! That was hard work. Made them look much better than they are.

Mediocre.

Think that sums it up.

Mediocre would be a step up

Scottrf wrote:

Geordie wrote:Imagine when we develop an attack...we'll be unreal.

But I'd like us to stop celebrating every fricken tackle and scrum win.

We have a very limited gameplan and even then were second best in it last match. Was always a strategy that would need us to perform perfectly and SA to be off form to edge the game. It’s not so easy to just add an attack without losing elsewhere.

We do for this world cup..but it will change. But still be about the basics.

Add an attack means we aren't tackling so much either which is why I think we're struggling in the final 20 because we are tackling so much...due to the tactics.

3rd at the world Cup...that'll do...Time to move on.

Heaf wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:To sausage it came off an Argentina knee....when it's a high potential knock on from Steward...he's checked the wrong thing.

Tmo said . Not to sausage. New phone...honest

Seems like you're willing England to lose ...

Do you agree with the check Heaf. I thought personally when the ref asked for it to be checked it was because steward had knocked it on?the Tmo has said it's not a knock on as it's come off a blue knee. I could have misunderstood what the ref was asking for but he was pointing towards where Stewards potential offence was. And I'm generally commenting on incident I agree or disagree with rather than colour of shirts.

Well. Not one for the highlight reel but even the most optimistic England fan surely wouldn’t have turned thier nose up at England finishing third

Geordie wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

Geordie wrote:Imagine when we develop an attack...we'll be unreal.

But I'd like us to stop celebrating every fricken tackle and scrum win.

We have a very limited gameplan and even then were second best in it last match. Was always a strategy that would need us to perform perfectly and SA to be off form to edge the game. It’s not so easy to just add an attack without losing elsewhere.

We do for this world cup..but it will change. But still be about the basics.

Add an attack means we aren't tackling  so much either which is why I think we're struggling in the final 20 because we are tackling so much...due to the tactics.  

3rd at the world Cup...that'll do...Time to move on.

Wish I had your positivity! Enjoy your weekend.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Heaf wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:To sausage it came off an Argentina knee....when it's a high potential knock on from Steward...he's checked the wrong thing.

Tmo said . Not to sausage. New phone...honest

Seems like you're willing England to lose ...

Do you agree with the check Heaf. I thought personally when the ref asked for it to be checked it was because steward had knocked it on?the Tmo has said it's not a knock on as it's come off a blue knee. I could have misunderstood what the ref was asking for but he was pointing towards where Stewards potential offence was. And I'm generally commenting on incident I agree or disagree with rather than colour of shirts.

And their try was a forward pass ..swings and roundabouts.

Scottrf wrote:

Geordie wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

Geordie wrote:Imagine when we develop an attack...we'll be unreal.

But I'd like us to stop celebrating every fricken tackle and scrum win.

We have a very limited gameplan and even then were second best in it last match. Was always a strategy that would need us to perform perfectly and SA to be off form to edge the game. It’s not so easy to just add an attack without losing elsewhere.

We do for this world cup..but it will change. But still be about the basics.

Add an attack means we aren't tackling  so much either which is why I think we're struggling in the final 20 because we are tackling so much...due to the tactics.  

3rd at the world Cup...that'll do...Time to move on.

Wish I had your positivity! Enjoy your weekend.

It's weakening lol

tigertattie wrote:Well. Not one for the highlight reel but even the most optimistic England fan surely wouldn’t have turned thier nose up at England finishing third

Given the draw, bare minimum.

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Heaf wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:To sausage it came off an Argentina knee....when it's a high potential knock on from Steward...he's checked the wrong thing.

Tmo said . Not to sausage. New phone...honest

Seems like you're willing England to lose ...

Do you agree with the check Heaf. I thought personally when the ref asked for it to be checked it was because steward had knocked it on?the Tmo has said it's not a knock on as it's come off a blue knee. I could have misunderstood what the ref was asking for but he was pointing towards where Stewards potential offence was. And I'm generally commenting on incident I agree or disagree with rather than colour of shirts.

And their try was a forward pass ..swings and roundabouts.

Which I also said. So you agree the tmo made an error or not?

mountain man wrote:If England do hold out and win I hope there's no big celebration at final whistle. Apart from first 15 mins they been poor.

Doesn't look like it....

Well third was several positions higher than I expected us to finish. Some work to be done before the 6N mind. Looking forward to the new attack coach arriving.

Didn't see it - I was rewinding to check where it looked like Marchant (I think) got smashed in the face by an Argentinian player on the wrong side of a ruck

I guess it is better than I hoped for (finishing third), but I can't be satisfied with that. We did absolutely nothing in that second half, just looked like we were waiting to get beat. What is the point in having good attacking players if they literally don't get passed the ball once?

Bright start, then the errors crept in.

Underhill terrific throughout though. After all his injuries and with Lawes retiring that was great to see. Martin, Curry and Underhill in the same pack could offer a ton of dominant hits.

Earl very good again too. I thought Genge had a really decent performance as well to be fair.

Of the lesser used players that came in. Dan and Rodd both made some noticeable defensive errors. Lawrence didn't have the hoped impact either.

Stuart I was impressed with defensively. He seemed to make a lot of tackles. The scrum was solid with him on too. Some of his carrying it felt like he went to ground to early without support though. Needs to time his runs better or fight to stay on his feet until a latch arrives. Not particularly poor overall but not standout either.

About it really. A bit of a meh game with some curious reffing decisions as is often the case in these playoffs.

Like the look of Carreras on the wing.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Heaf wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:To sausage it came off an Argentina knee....when it's a high potential knock on from Steward...he's checked the wrong thing.

Tmo said . Not to sausage. New phone...honest

Seems like you're willing England to lose ...

Do you agree with the check Heaf. I thought personally when the ref asked for it to be checked it was because steward had knocked it on?the Tmo has said it's not a knock on as it's come off a blue knee. I could have misunderstood what the ref was asking for but he was pointing towards where Stewards potential offence was. And I'm generally commenting on incident I agree or disagree with rather than colour of shirts.

Didn't see it - I was rewinding to check where it looked like Marchant (I think) got smashed in the face by an Argentinian player on the wrong side of a ruck

Dismal 2nd half. Argentina were stronger for much of the game but England capitalised on Argentinian errors.

Ending the game with 3 FH, a fullback out of position and no wings says it all. Don't know what to do with Arundell. He does need to look for the ball more but no passes says a lot. He should also be given a chance at FB.

Youngs....

Earl's try very good and a few decent performances in the pack (including Dan) but that wasn't a good game.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Well third was several positions higher than I expected us to finish. Some work to be done before the 6N mind. Looking forward to the new attack coach arriving.

I'm obviously really critical of Borthwick but expected this...we'll tbf win or lose today is pretty much the same as its a meh match. Was your expectation just so much lower hence the opinion now of Borthwick?Jones isn't necktie attack coach either. He's been described as a coach who will analyse opposition sides weaknesses both attack and defence while other takes the mantle of attack and defence coaches. Wigglesworth is the attack coach as far as we know. And what a job he's doing.

Congratulations to England on getting bronze, is that a first for you?

Borthwick about to sign a clause to extend his contract to 2030!

Heaf wrote:Didn't see it - I was rewinding to check where it looked like Marchant (I think) got smashed in the face by an Argentinian player on the wrong side of a ruck

If we're remembering the same collision I think it was Lawrence. In real time it looked to me like he came in as if to ruck over, backed out as the clear out arrived and got clattered. If so we saw players repeatedly not get rewarded for coming in to compete then stepping out so clearing players went off feet throughout the game. Lawrence went down, rolled around a bit and then when he realised play was continuing, he quickly got up and in line. I'm not sure there was much in it.

westisbest wrote:Like the look of Carreras on the wing.

Hands off...he's ours

Well my wife has gone to bed because I have been 'tetchy', thanks a lot England! I worry this is going to be my immediate future, Vanessa will certainly not like it.

Positive future.
The basics coming on...the intensity level is there...breakdown...

Bring the attack in and things change quite a bit.

The future is rosey...

The basics being what exactly?and is it 2 weeks we have together before the 6 ns?we've had 5 months together and not had a chance (apparently) to practice the attack at all. And apparently there will be a fair few changes to the squad so we'll be having to spend more time on basics again surely?

Or will it finally be that he has his first choice coaches necy tournament?is he going to be like the Forth Bridge. It'll all be complete next week?

king_carlos wrote:

Heaf wrote:Didn't see it - I was rewinding to check where it looked like Marchant (I think) got smashed in the face by an Argentinian player on the wrong side of a ruck

If we're remembering the same collision I think it was Lawrence. In real time it looked to me like he came in as if to ruck over, backed out as the clear out arrived and got clattered. If so we saw players repeatedly not get rewarded for coming in to compete then stepping out so clearing players went off feet throughout the game. Lawrence went down, rolled around a bit and then when he realised play was continuing, he quickly got up and in line. I'm not sure there was much in it.

Yep after I looked back I didn't think there was too much in it - although I have to say I still think Argentina got away a lot with taking out players beyond the ruck who weren't even engaging, and went around rather than through the gate - which was ironic when Jamie G got pinged (correctly) for going in the side to clear-out on one occasion.

Thought the ref let quite a bit go but wasn't too bad overall - the TMO on the other hand was as bad as he usually is ...

Heaf wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

Heaf wrote:Didn't see it - I was rewinding to check where it looked like Marchant (I think) got smashed in the face by an Argentinian player on the wrong side of a ruck

If we're remembering the same collision I think it was Lawrence. In real time it looked to me like he came in as if to ruck over, backed out as the clear out arrived and got clattered. If so we saw players repeatedly not get rewarded for coming in to compete then stepping out so clearing players went off feet throughout the game. Lawrence went down, rolled around a bit and then when he realised play was continuing, he quickly got up and in line. I'm not sure there was much in it.

Yep after I looked back I didn't think there was too much in it - although I have to say I still think Argentina got away a lot with taking out players beyond the ruck who weren't even engaging, and went around rather than through the gate - which was ironic when Jamie G got pinged (correctly) for going in the side to clear-out on one occasion.  

Thought the ref let quite a bit go but wasn't too bad overall - the TMO on the other hand was as bad as he usually is ...

The communication from the ref was generally very good which usually helps. Not sure if that game could be helped though.

I missed MOTM - guessing it might be Underhill.

Geordie wrote:

westisbest wrote:Like the look of Carreras on the wing.

Hands off...he's ours

Ha. He’s a good player.

So for the 6 nations you need an entirely new midfield, decide who your ten is, and two new wingers.
Then decide who's 8 and 6 and the starting front row.
Easy

We made him that...

Carerras and Radwan the wings...the best wings in the league to not see the ball...

Oh and develop a bit more of an attack (other than play 3 flyhalfs for the last 20)

carpet baboon wrote:Oh and develop a bit more of     an attack (other than play 3 flyhalfs for the last 20)

Fixed that for you ...

carpet baboon wrote:So for the 6 nations you need an entirely new midfield, decide who your ten is, and two new wingers.
Then decide who's 8 and 6 and the starting front row.
Easy

Very Easy

10 Ford

12 Kelly / Seb Atkinson
13 Lawrence maybe even Daly at 13.

11 Arundel
14 Watson / Freeman/ OHC

6 Curry
7 Earl
8 Mercer / T.Willis and Chandler Cunningham as an apprentice

Oh and
1 Genge
2 George
3. Only one I can't answer

carpet baboon wrote:So for the 6 nations you need an entirely new midfield, decide who your ten is, and two new wingers.
Then decide who's 8 and 6 and the starting front row.
Easy

Don't forget that our front row is gash too...