England's Winter of Cricket 2023/24

First topic message reminder :

After the disappointment of the World Cup, can England be the first away team in 11 years to win a test series in India?

Three ODIs v West Indies (3rd December-9th December)
Five T20s v West Indies (12th December-21st December)
Five Tests v India (25th January-11th March)

KP_fan wrote:As game stands now win or defeat is far away but it's England's to blow away without taking a middish lead.
They should be disappointed if they don't get 50+ lead.
Which to me would mean still balance as they have to bat last.
But they would have stunned India and will be mentally with an upper hand.

How we got here is my same old.rant.
Bold cricket and strong leadership
Vs timid leadership   clichéd template and suboptimal selections  .

If I was Eng I would play proper cricket tomm to ensure 8 wkts in hand deliver 300 runs min
In bazballing lies rhe risk of being shot out quickly.

Ind  need to simply put sweepers to cut out all sweeps and they would stand a good chamce to choke Eng
If Bumrah finds rhythm it would be a bonus.
The game has makings of a final inning chase humdinger

Alas Eng blew it up as feared...they needed to play "normal" cricket today and milk 300n runs and get 50 on top.
BUT they did not read their own high ground match position overnight and threw it away....Root opening the flood gates.
Kuldeep bamboozled them all...nobody picked him, not even his own WK.
And when they took him off...Eng relaxed....Siraj stepped up, found reverse, added a yard to few of his deliveries.
They will try to put a brave face....but their batting show today will stun Eng mentally

Four for Siraj

Good balls to get Rehan and now Anderson. Well bowled all round by India today. Lead of 126 which should be enough to ensure a victory.

All three games have seen India score large if not monstrous first innings ; and England fall well short of par... Can come back from that when batting first , as they did in the first game : but almost impossible to do so when you have to bat last. It is hard to overcome the toss advantage on these (very good , but always going to deteriorate) pitches... But I thought they had a chance this morning to maximise the advantage Duckett's blitz had brought them. Not to be ...

Last 8 went down for 95
Really blown themselves away...Indian good bowling notwithstanding

Not sure it will "stun" them , KP_fan... Has all happened before ...notably at Lord's a few months ago. They will probably say it's the way they play - and there is some validity in the mantra of living and dying by the sword. I do think a little situational awareness could be improved: but apart from Root and some of the later dismissals maybe more due to good bowling on a pitch that had started assisting the spinners a bit more ? Will be interesting to see how India find batting in this innings - but they've such a handy cushion the pressure won't be anything like the same. Plus the England bowlers have - as so often - had very little rest.

Middle order has totally failed on this tour so far bar one knock from Stokes in the first test - got barely anything from 4-7 in the batting order…tough to win test matches when that’s the case

Wasn't too surprised by that, msp's reverse jinxes have worked out nicely. 2-1 it is going to be then and realistically the series is gone as well. I'm not that disappointed really, I was hardly expecting England to compete let alone win the series!

I'm sure England won't be giving up on the series - heck they probably aren't giving up on the match ! Though hard to see a way back here as even if they can roll India for 150 or so chasing on a fourth day pitch would be improbable. They've done a lot wrong in this match to be honest , and really that Duckett onslaught wasn't enough to turn the tide. But if they win the next toss I see no reason they can't compete - I do think they almost certainly need that advantage to mix it with India in home conditions , unfortunately.

Annoying thing for me is I've been really enjoying this series and was looking forward to a hard fought last couple of days in this one...but it rather looks as if we are now faced with one of these third innings grind downs leading to an inevitable conclusion. Which just isn't as much fun .

Of course it is probably a bit more fun for the side that is winning I wouldn't know as England don't seem to "do" that sort of comfortable cruise to victory !

VTR wrote:Wasn't too surprised by that, msp's reverse jinxes have worked out nicely. 2-1 it is going to be then and realistically the series is gone as well. I'm not that disappointed really, I was hardly expecting England to compete let alone win the series!

This appears more an attempt to jinx msp's reverse jinx then heartfelt.
Today's collapse notwithstanding Eng have played good cricket and can be proud.
This match too is not over yet , and certainly the series is far from over from Eng.

My only wish is Root plays sensibly and they blend bazballing with commonsense

I think only Trebell could hope to reverse jinx this one around now so won't even attempt it

Olly's point about the lack of runs from England's bats after the top three is accurate. Worth noting though that apart from Jadeja , who has played two big innings , there haven't been a lot of large scores from India's middle order either : a lot of their players have been guilty of throwing their hands away when seemingly set. One might say that both the first two Tests have been won by one massive innings each...Pope and Jaiswal.

Hallo ...England overturn Joel Wilson on review for a change

Root the Bowler having more success than he is with the bat...

30/1

Indians need to play more stroke , else they will choke themselves if they try to bat like dravid and presumably on Dravid's advise

Definitely not a reverse jinx, it's a realistic take on things. England have done far better than anyone expected, even in this match they created a couple of openings. The target should be 400 at worse, no way England are chasing that down. Then to win the series, that's two wins in a row required, again I can't see that happening

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Middle order has totally failed on this tour so far bar one knock from Stokes in the first test - got barely anything from 4-7 in the batting order…tough to win test matches when that’s the case

To further illustrate the point, First innings of the games so far for England;

58-1 to 155-7 in Hyderabad
114-1 to 182-7 in Vizag
182-1 to 299-7 in Rajkot

Think these two bats are doing the right thing in playing some shots. As KP_fan says , trying to just prod and push would risk getting strangled , and they don't want to end up giving England even a sniff of a chance by an underwhelming second innings. Realistically they don't need any huge score in this innings ; but with the advantage they already hold , a couple of hours batting briskly will surely be enough to bury their opponents.

Exactly like Lord's, pretty much. The main opposition off-spinner out of the game midway through, England in a strong position, then they just throw it away. I'm tired of Root batting like a fecking moron. Crawley has to play shots because his defensive technique is abysmal, so he might as well strike boundaries, put pressure on the opposition that way, and make the most of it. But Root is arguably the greatest batsman England have ever had. He doesn't need to be playing nonsense shots like that.

Bairstow is really struggling with the bat this series, as he usually does in India. I can't see a viable replacement, so might as well stick with him. The only possible replacement is Jennings, but that would require shuffling the batting order, and I think that's more aggro than it's worth.

England have been comprehensively outplayed in this series. They've been well behind after every first innings so far (190, 143 and 136), and but for once in a lifetime heroics from Pope and Hartley, they'd be staring down the barrel of 3-0.

Going to need some serious heroics to get out of this one.

Going to need a serious miracle ! Can't see that coming...

But I don't think it is fair to say "comprehensively outplayed" . They've been right in each game for significant periods despite trailing on first innings - and of course won the first one ; while the last match was decided principally by a couple of terrific spells from Bumrah (not to mention an innings for the ages from Jaiswal) Today was perhaps the most disappointing day of the series because they really did seem to be in a position from which parity at least was achievable with a modicum of situation awareness - which still seems to be their weak spot.

Might be a good idea for Stokes and Bairstow to swap spots in the batting order ? Particularly if Root is going to continue to try and blaze away , as Stokes seems happy to start cautiously, while Jonny is better suited to playing shots from the start. Ironic that just as England start getting serious opening partnerships on a regular basis , the middle order which has been bailing them out for some time - even in the early McCullum days - should suddenly go missing. Need runs from these fellows to turn these 250-300 scored into the 400s needed ...

The other criticism I would make of England's approach today , is that after India's first innings stretched nearly four sessions in pretty warm conditions, it was surely important to make sure the bowlers were given adequate rest before being called on again. So batting the day out should have been a significant secondary objective , at least when starting off. It may be that wasn't going to be possible given the way Kuldeep was threatening ; but would have thought it might have been a consideration early on rather than seeking to go in overdrive .
Spectacular collapse in the end ; but I think once Stokes found himself with just Foakes and the bowlers he was justified in going hard...and the rest just couldn't cope with dome very good bowling.

73/1 and batting doesn't look so difficult now , although the odd ball is doing something. Might be different if India were trailing ; but as it is they don't seem too pressured. You'd imagine another hundred runs will seal this...

Puff of dust in that Hartley over
Encouraging for Hartely, not so for Eng in the bigger picture

After seeing off ....jaiswal has forgotten Dravid's message and gone on a mini rampage.
Not many times you see an Anderson over go for 20 runs
And spinners are being treated with disdain.
Wood was getting reverse but it seems he is not much used to it and hence they didn't know how to take advantage of his reverse

Does strike me sometimes England just don't know what to do when they get ahead in a game. Probably the big criticism of the stokes captaincy I think

GSC wrote:Does strike me sometimes England just don't know what to do when they get ahead in a game. Probably the big criticism of the stokes captaincy I think

England were far from being ahead in this game!

Poor Jimmy feeling the wrath of YasBall in that over, KP_F.

Agree with the general sentiment above. England were in a very strong position at the start of play this morning. They should have (as suggested by alfie and KP-fan) gone into a secondary accumulative run-scoring mode at a 'normal' pace to see off Jas and Kuldeep... and try and tire out Siraj's legs after he was hobbling pretty badly late yesterday. The physios did an amazing job to get him back out there and performing like he did today.

Instead it was the vainglorious BB Plan A approach; even when they know they are batting last with 3 days to go still. Just seems so silly and pointless as well. They did indeed throw their strong position away. I just don't get it.

A better plan would have been to try and preserve wickets at the expense of RR and thus exert a different type of physical and mental pressure on the Indians. Slow the tempo... play a different sort of mind game... show some respect towards the Indian bowling... with the main objective of getting closer to the pretty massive Indian total of 445 than they did. And kill some time as well.

India bowled so well today... setting the tone early on knowing how England would stick to their plan. So indeed they were 'completely outplayed' as Duty says. At least in a tactical sense anyway.

India, on the other hand, do the reverse. Steady start batting... then open up a bit more and start the punishment once they have the bowlers where, when and how they want them. A much smarter approach than England's and far less risky too even if they lose a wicket or two.

Rather maintain a manageable 4 rpo for longer (with the opportunity to accelerate the run rate from about now onwards) than shoot for the sky at 6 rpo for 40 overs or so, then fall down the hole after 70 overs. England seem to have a knack for speeding up their own demise! They should find more gears and alternative approaches at given match situations. Although I'm quite happy if they persevere with this particular method.  

I reckon Bazball works (at best) 50% of the time for about 40% of an innings. There's not really a great return in the overall scheme of test cricket. The back end collapses practically negate all the good work done up at the top end. And much sooner too giving the opposition a leg up. These types of performances clearly highlight some monumental flaws in this approach.

Just waiting for Guildford to point my memory to the 5th Test at The Oval...

Yeah, sometimes the tail turns up when needed... but mostly at home.

This game is all about conditions and match situations and these can't simply be ignored or overridden.
One needs to go back to the original idea and modify to suit the above.

Pal Joey wrote:Poor Jimmy feeling the wrath of YasBall in that over, KP_F.

Agree with the general sentiment above. England were in a very strong position at the start of play this morning. They should have (as suggested by alfie and KP-fan) gone into a secondary accumulative run-scoring mode at a 'normal' pace to see off Jas and Kuldeep... and try and tire out Siraj's legs after he was hobbling pretty badly late yesterday. The physios did an amazing job to get him back out there and performing like he did today.

Instead it was the vainglorious BB Plan A approach; even when they know they are batting last with 3 days to go still. Just seems so silly and pointless as well. They did indeed throw their strong position away. I just don't get it.

A better plan would have been to try and preserve wickets at the expense of RR and thus exert a different type of physical and mental pressure on the Indians. Slow the tempo... play a different sort of mind game... show some respect towards the Indian bowling... with the main objective of getting closer to the pretty massive Indian total of 445 than they did. And kill some time as well.

India bowled so well today... setting the tone early on knowing how England would stick to their plan. So indeed they were 'completely outplayed' as Duty says. At least in a tactical sense anyway.

India, on the other hand, do the reverse. Steady start batting... then open up a bit more and start the punishment once they have the bowlers where, when and how they want them. A much smarter approach than England's and far less risky too even if they lose a wicket or two.

Rather maintain a manageable 4 rpo for longer (with the opportunity to accelerate the run rate from about now onwards) than shoot for the sky at 6 rpo for 40 overs or so, then fall down the hole after 70 overs. England seem to have a knack for speeding up their own demise! They should find more gears and alternative approaches at given match situations. Although I'm quite happy if they persevere with this particular method.  

I reckon Bazball works (at best) 50% of the time for about 40% of an innings. There's not really a great return in the overall scheme of test cricket. The back end collapses practically negate all the good work done up at the top end. And much sooner too giving the opposition a leg up. These types of performances clearly highlight some monumental flaws in this approach.

Ben Stokes has a win percentage of 66.67% as a Test captain, second only to Steve Waugh's 71.93% among the 149 players who have captained in at least 12 matches (Stokes currently in his 21st game as captain). Maybe use some actual stats rather than made up guff next time

I don't see why England should have accumulated today.

They play this way, they have to back it and see it through. It seems some are very selective. When Bazball works, yay it's amazing, all credit to England. When it doesn't work, suddenly there's retrospective cries of 'well, England should have been a bit more cautious'.

You can't have it both ways. You can't praise Bazball, when it gets England to 200/2, and then denigrate it when it goes awry. Classic example being Vaughan, who praised Bazball to the heavens, and said even if England go two down v Australia then they should carry on with the aggression. Then, when England actually went two down, Vaughan was suddenly urging caution and berating England for being reckless.

Bazball hasn't improved the fortunes of the England team. They're exactly where they have been for most of the past decade - probably the best of the rest overall, but short of the top table occupied by Australia and India (and also briefly occupied by NZ for a few years). Not sure if the Bazball cult will wake up to this reality, though, after this series.

Another superb century for Jaiswal in this innings. Unlike Pope's effort, Jaiswal can be expected to get future success with the bat in the subcontinent, and so it has shown here. 450+ lead tomorrow then declare? At this rate they might have time to push it beyond 500 and still give themselves enough time to bowl England out.

alfie wrote:The good thing for India , even down one bowler , is that England score so fast they aren't likely to be kept in the field for some enormous number of overs - only bowled 35 so far - hence the strain on the others won't be as much as can be the case in these situations. Which might count in the second innings.

Way too early to think about that though. Moving day (guildford patent stamp ) is upon us soon and promises to be another enthralling part of a series that has already given plenty...

Ha and thanks for the shout out, Alfie, although today has turned out to be more irritating than enthralling for England supporters.

In line with your later comments, we needed to give Anderson and Wood a good time with their feet up, ideally into day 4. By blowing that, we left too many runs out there and have probably also gifted too many runs to India in their third dig by having to overly rely on our inexperienced spinners.

Tbf to our spin attack, they are the main reason we've taken 50 Indian wickets in their first five innings of this series, even if a few pies have been served up along the way. I thought we would struggle more to bowl 'em out. Our major weakness has been the continued failings of our middle order as flagged by Olly and especially that of Root, Bairstow and Foakes as evidenced today (all now averaging under 20). It was extremely unfortunate for Ashwin and India that he wasn't playing  today but our batters needed to ensure India suffered as a consequence - they didn't.

Connected with the middle order individual failings and the inability to push on from a good start (Olly's point) has been the lack of meaningful partnerships for England. That's something I've been meaning to mention since the end of T2. At that stage, we had made ten partnerships of 50 or more.  I don't know how that compares or stands up to past performances but my gut reaction is that it's not too bad. However, five of those ten were for less than 60; my further gut reaction is that we should be going on to more than that. Partnerships of 89 and 93 for our first two wickets in this Test but nothing to speak of after that. I've long maintained that Foakes can't bat with the tail for toffee and maybe Baistow is out of form and/or unsuited to Indian conditions but surely the way Root is batting and why needs to be looked at. He could do much better and be so valuable in a proper partnership.

Been away for a while and see I've missed a bit of Indian batting dominance ...can't say I'm surprised. Can't expect Jimmy to bowl 25 overs and be back bowling again with less than a days rest...

This one is over anyway , just a question of time . Hope England fight out the second innings but no way they're getting near whatever they're set.

Agree with most of PJ's comments above . Except that I don't think their method fails as often as that : in fact I've seen them adapt it sensibly on a few occasions and it puzzles me why they seem to be so determined not to do so in this series. Sure the openers' aggressive approach is probably their best chance ...but once they'd established that very handy platform overnight , today was surely an obvious time to dial it back for at least the first hour or so. Hope they'll take the lesson this time.

Talking of irritating, how about Graeme Swann? Not only his feeble attempts at humour but his own laughter which follows them.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

Pal Joey wrote:Poor Jimmy feeling the wrath of YasBall in that over, KP_F.

Agree with the general sentiment above. England were in a very strong position at the start of play this morning. They should have (as suggested by alfie and KP-fan) gone into a secondary accumulative run-scoring mode at a 'normal' pace to see off Jas and Kuldeep... and try and tire out Siraj's legs after he was hobbling pretty badly late yesterday. The physios did an amazing job to get him back out there and performing like he did today.

Instead it was the vainglorious BB Plan A approach; even when they know they are batting last with 3 days to go still. Just seems so silly and pointless as well. They did indeed throw their strong position away. I just don't get it.

A better plan would have been to try and preserve wickets at the expense of RR and thus exert a different type of physical and mental pressure on the Indians. Slow the tempo... play a different sort of mind game... show some respect towards the Indian bowling... with the main objective of getting closer to the pretty massive Indian total of 445 than they did. And kill some time as well.

India bowled so well today... setting the tone early on knowing how England would stick to their plan. So indeed they were 'completely outplayed' as Duty says. At least in a tactical sense anyway.

India, on the other hand, do the reverse. Steady start batting... then open up a bit more and start the punishment once they have the bowlers where, when and how they want them. A much smarter approach than England's and far less risky too even if they lose a wicket or two.

Rather maintain a manageable 4 rpo for longer (with the opportunity to accelerate the run rate from about now onwards) than shoot for the sky at 6 rpo for 40 overs or so, then fall down the hole after 70 overs. England seem to have a knack for speeding up their own demise! They should find more gears and alternative approaches at given match situations. Although I'm quite happy if they persevere with this particular method.  

I reckon Bazball works (at best) 50% of the time for about 40% of an innings. There's not really a great return in the overall scheme of test cricket. The back end collapses practically negate all the good work done up at the top end. And much sooner too giving the opposition a leg up. These types of performances clearly highlight some monumental flaws in this approach.

Ben Stokes has a win percentage of 66.67% as a Test captain, second only to Steve Waugh's 71.93% among the 149 players who have captained in at least 12 matches (Stokes currently in his 21st game as captain). Maybe use some actual stats rather than made up guff next time

Only a win percentage of 40% v Australia though, which is nothing to brag about. It's taking a bit of a dent in India too! I'm not making that up.  

And after reading other remarks above I should say further that (a) Bazball isn't just bashing, but a whole game philosophy. And it works quite often as we note even if England lose this series it will be their first series loss under Stokes/McCullum. And (b) nothing in this philosophy means you should automatically play one way all the time. There are times in any game when a bit of game awareness makes a lot of difference...and England seemed to miss that a bit today.

Having said that I reckon a lot of the collapse today was down to good bowling being too much for players on a pitch that was playing the odd trick but was far from impossible to make runs on. As we've seen since... So part reckless (mainly Root , to be honest : though I suppose Stokes might have held back a little while he still had Foakes in support) and a larger part failure of execution.

I don't want them to stop playing aggressively. Wins them more than it loses. But to beat India on their own turf they need to get almost everything right - and they didn't quite do that today.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

GSC wrote:Does strike me sometimes England just don't know what to do when they get ahead in a game. Probably the big criticism of the stokes captaincy I think

England were far from being ahead in this game!

True, maybe better phrased as the chance to pull ahead?

Not sure roots issue is aggression etc as much as just being bang out of form. Maybe trying to hit his way into form idk. Coming off a disaster world cup in these conditions

guildfordbat wrote:Talking of irritating, how about Graeme Swann? Not only his feeble attempts at humour but his own laughter which follows them.

He couldn't resist having a dig at the 'not out run out incident where the Australians didn't appeal'... therefore given 'not out' by the umpire.  

Said he'd normally 'feel sorry for the team that happened to' but 'because it happened to be Australia... it made him feel really happy!'
Then made things worse by saying "ohh... we really love all of our Aussie mates really... we really do!" (that laughter then followed, Guildford)

We won't forget these comments. Add them to the list!  

I'd rather listen to someone like Mick Jagger commentate... if it were possible. He'd be far more interesting and much funnier too.

alfie wrote:And after reading other remarks above I should say further that (a) Bazball isn't just bashing, but a whole game philosophy. And it works quite often as we note even if England lose this series it will be their first series loss under Stokes/McCullum. And (b) nothing in this philosophy means you should automatically play one way all the time. There are times in any game when a bit of game awareness makes a lot of difference...and England seemed to miss that a bit today.

Having said that I reckon a lot of the collapse today was down to good bowling being too much for players on a pitch that was playing the odd trick but was far from impossible to make runs on. As we've seen since...  So part reckless (mainly Root , to be honest : though I suppose Stokes might have held back a little while he still had Foakes in support) and a larger part failure of execution.

I don't want them to stop playing aggressively. Wins them more than it loses. But to beat India on their own turf they need to get almost everything right - and they didn't quite do that today.

It may seem indelicate to say so given the reason but a sizeable factor in the game today which we should have both been aware of and taken advantage of was Ashwin being absent. Against a remaining 4 man attack including 2 seamers, we should have looked to bat all day making hay in the final session as their bowling unit wilted and/or was forced to turn to part timers. As mentioned earlier, a further benefit would have been more rest time for Anderson and Wood.

The so called Bazball era has produced some mightily impressive results and performances but today fell badly short.

Duty281 wrote:I don't see why England should have accumulated today.

They play this way, they have to back it and see it through. It seems some are very selective. When Bazball works, yay it's amazing, all credit to England. When it doesn't work, suddenly there's retrospective cries of 'well, England should have been a bit more cautious'.

You can't have it both ways. You can't praise Bazball, when it gets England to 200/2, and then denigrate it when it goes awry. Classic example being Vaughan, who praised Bazball to the heavens, and said even if England go two down v Australia then they should carry on with the aggression. Then, when England actually went two down, Vaughan was suddenly urging caution and berating England for being reckless.

Bazball hasn't improved the fortunes of the England team. They're exactly where they have been for most of the past decade - probably the best of the rest overall, but short of the top table occupied by Australia and India (and also briefly occupied by NZ for a few years). Not sure if the Bazball cult will wake up to this reality, though, after this series.

Another superb century for Jaiswal in this innings. Unlike Pope's effort, Jaiswal can be expected to get future success with the bat in the subcontinent, and so it has shown here. 450+ lead tomorrow then declare? At this rate they might have time to push it beyond 500 and still give themselves enough time to bowl England out.

Agree with you on Vaughan, Agnew et al who are wish washing with the wind on their opinions. Not surprising with Vaughan, who by the day I wonder how on earth he was such a good captain, when he talks such continuous nonsense as a pundit.

Do take issue with your continued talk about Bazball not improving the fortunes of the England team - has it made them the best team in the world, absolutely not, they still don't have a spinner worth a damn and the batting talent is still a far cry from the late 2000/early 2010s outfit we could put out. But, they had, and were dipping further and further down under Root/Silverwood (whilst playing absolutely miserable cricket for the most part), and have been restored to a good level under Stokes/McCullum, whilst playing in some damn entertaining test matches.

Can these two push them beyond this?
Yet to be seen - I don't think any reasonable pundit or fan truly expected much in this tour (in fact having won one test pretty much matches my expectation, and they will have a shot to surpass that in the final two games)...I think they deserve a lot of credit for last winters 3-0 win in Pakistan. Unfortunately they did miss an opportunity in this past summer in the home Ashes.
Real tests upcoming in the next two winters I would say. A three test series against NZ in NZ (winning that would be a certain sign of progress, with how poor we are historically in NZ) and then of course the Ashes in Australia, which probably lines up to be Stokes's final hurrah in late 2025.

guildfordbat wrote:

alfie wrote:And after reading other remarks above I should say further that (a) Bazball isn't just bashing, but a whole game philosophy. And it works quite often as we note even if England lose this series it will be their first series loss under Stokes/McCullum. And (b) nothing in this philosophy means you should automatically play one way all the time. There are times in any game when a bit of game awareness makes a lot of difference...and England seemed to miss that a bit today.

Having said that I reckon a lot of the collapse today was down to good bowling being too much for players on a pitch that was playing the odd trick but was far from impossible to make runs on. As we've seen since...  So part reckless (mainly Root , to be honest : though I suppose Stokes might have held back a little while he still had Foakes in support) and a larger part failure of execution.

I don't want them to stop playing aggressively. Wins them more than it loses. But to beat India on their own turf they need to get almost everything right - and they didn't quite do that today.

It may seem indelicate to say so given the reason but a sizeable factor in the game today which we should have both been aware of and taken advantage of was Ashwin being absent. Against a remaining 4 man attack including 2 seamers, we should have looked to bat all day making hay in the final session as their bowling unit wilted and/or was forced to turn to part timers. As mentioned earlier, a further benefit would have been more rest time for Anderson and Wood.

The so called Bazball era has produced some mightily impressive results and performances but today fell badly short.

You said that more elegantly than I did above, guildfordbat. Yeah... that's exactly what I meant.

Hare and tortoise, alfie. ¿Por qué no los dos? Main course of hare (yesterday... tick) followed by some turtle soup this morning?

BBC comment section having a normal one. Top comment says to drop Root.

Duty281 wrote:BBC comment section having a normal one. Top comment says to drop Root.

And replace him with KP?

VTR wrote:

Duty281 wrote:BBC comment section having a normal one. Top comment says to drop Root.

And replace him with KP?

No need to go to extremes... just yet.

Unless you mean the real KP and not our expert fan of his on here?
Might be able to get his visa stamped quickly under that special Schengen provision.

But I think India will manage their injury list pretty well and he won't be needed.

Probably can't mix hare and tortoise , to be fair - though India sort of managed that this evening.  But perhaps there is a case for a Larry Gomes type among all the hares - a role that Joe Root is best fitted for. Not all the time , mind : had England been chasing 250 instead of 445 then maybe all out mayhem was a reasonable plan.  But 200 odd behind , with India both a bit rattled by the previous evening , down a bowler ... there was room for a little period of risk free cricket.
Not sure how many on here actually watched the early overs ; but I did , and was happy to see the way England's pair were playing. The only remote alarm was a near run out when Root got a bit too eager and nearly did for Duckett , Other than that they'd made 17 from 4 overs and there was no indication that India were stifling scoring opportunities - they still had a couple of slips and Bumrah was clearly after wickets not containment. He was also unlikely to bowl more than 5 or six overs in the spell so there was no good tactical need to try and upset his field with a funky scoop - yes I know Root has made runs with it  ; but it has also got him out more than once. Respectfully don't think this was the time and place - though I'm happy to see him try it in different circumstances.

Thing with this all out attack method is , it can be highly effective in rattling the opposition ; but it also carries high risks which need not be taken in absolutely every situation. Batting first , 200/2 - go for it. Third innings , 100 or so lead - be my guest. Even chasing a highly unlikely target it makes good sense. But when you have successfully established an excellent platform , surely you prioritize getting yourself properly set and seeing off the main bowler before trying party tricks ?

I feel a bit bad bashing Root ; but I think he's better than that . And he opened the door : so then Bairstow got a good one before he was set ; Duckett  I think got out mainly because the loss of two quick wickets had him second guessing his own plan instead of continuing to play with total freedom ... and from being in a very promising position suddenly you're five down and in serious trouble. Maybe call it a lack of ruthlessness rather than reckless conduct but amounts to the same thing : giving the opposition a break when they really hadn't looked likely to do it for themselves.

Some say Root is just out of form. I don't agree with that - he looked this fine this time up to his dismissal. But he's got himself out 3 times in this series now and I am not sure why. Hope he can get his mojo back for the remainder of the series because he is the man who can ensure good starts don't get wasted .

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

Duty281 wrote:I don't see why England should have accumulated today.

They play this way, they have to back it and see it through. It seems some are very selective. When Bazball works, yay it's amazing, all credit to England. When it doesn't work, suddenly there's retrospective cries of 'well, England should have been a bit more cautious'.

You can't have it both ways. You can't praise Bazball, when it gets England to 200/2, and then denigrate it when it goes awry. Classic example being Vaughan, who praised Bazball to the heavens, and said even if England go two down v Australia then they should carry on with the aggression. Then, when England actually went two down, Vaughan was suddenly urging caution and berating England for being reckless.

Bazball hasn't improved the fortunes of the England team. They're exactly where they have been for most of the past decade - probably the best of the rest overall, but short of the top table occupied by Australia and India (and also briefly occupied by NZ for a few years). Not sure if the Bazball cult will wake up to this reality, though, after this series.

Another superb century for Jaiswal in this innings. Unlike Pope's effort, Jaiswal can be expected to get future success with the bat in the subcontinent, and so it has shown here. 450+ lead tomorrow then declare? At this rate they might have time to push it beyond 500 and still give themselves enough time to bowl England out.

Agree with you on Vaughan, Agnew et al who are wish washing with the wind on their opinions. Not surprising with Vaughan, who by the day I wonder how on earth he was such a good captain, when he talks such continuous nonsense as a pundit.

Do take issue with your continued talk about Bazball not improving the fortunes of the England team - has it made them the best team in the world, absolutely not, they still don't have a spinner worth a damn and the batting talent is still a far cry from the late 2000/early 2010s outfit we could put out. But, they had, and were dipping further and further down under Root/Silverwood (whilst playing absolutely miserable cricket for the most part), and have been restored to a good level under Stokes/McCullum, whilst playing in some damn entertaining test matches.

Can these two push them beyond this?
Yet to be seen - I don't think any reasonable pundit or fan truly expected much in this tour (in fact having won one test pretty much matches my expectation, and they will have a shot to surpass that in the final two games)...I think they deserve a lot of credit for last winters 3-0 win in Pakistan. Unfortunately they did miss an opportunity in this past summer in the home Ashes.
Real tests upcoming in the next two winters I would say. A three test series against NZ in NZ (winning that would be a certain sign of progress, with how poor we are historically in NZ) and then of course the Ashes in Australia, which probably lines up to be Stokes's final hurrah in late 2025.

I just think England are around the same level today as they were under Root/Silverwood.

The perception has been coloured by the fixture list. The last 17 tests under Root, 14 of them were against top table nations (8 away?), 3 against the West Indies (a place England have never done well in).  Naturally, England struggled, and that's all people seem to remember.

12 of the first 13 tests that Stokes was in charge for were against nations outside that top table. England did well. Naturally. But it's forgotten that under Root England used to regularly beat those nations outside the top bracket. I think Root's captaincy record against teams outside of the top bracket, which was Australia, India and NZ at the time, was 19 wins from 30 tests and 7 series wins out of 10.

Do I think Stokes/McCullum would have done much better than Root/Silverwood in those 17 tests? No, not really. And we're seeing it plain as day now. England drew 2-2 with Australia last year, exactly the same as under Root, and against an arguably weaker Australian side in 2023 with the loss of Lyon. England were 2-1 down after 3 tests in India in 2021 under Root, and it's looking as though it'll be 2-1 India after 3 tests this year. Difference being that this is undoubtedly a weaker Indian side than 2021, with the absences of Shami, Kohli, Pant, Rahul, plus losing Jadeja for a test, and England's victory in 2021 was far more convincing than this year. And do we think England will even get close to Australia in 25/26? Doubtful.

Bazball hasn't worsened things. It's kept things largely the same results wise with a new, glossy coat of paint. And that's fine. But let's not pretend it's a new age.

England should be looking to beat NZ in NZ later this year. NZ have declined a lot and struggled to win many test series since winning the WTC. Mind you, England should have won the series against them last year. The trip to Australia will be the usual write off, alas. Also got Pakistan away later this year, I think before the NZ tour. Everything's squeezed due to the Champions Trophy in early 2025.

guildfordbat wrote:Talking of irritating, how about Graeme Swann? Not only his feeble attempts at humour but his own laughter which follows them.

On the rare occasions he doesn't talk about himself or try to be abject comic, he can actually have some good insight as well. That's the most infuriating thing. He's the type of pundit who will linger like a bad smell because he generates comments such as the ones we're making now though!

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