Champions Cup; and the other one if someone wants to comment

First topic message reminder :

Couldn't see another thread on a quick look so sorry if I've missed it.

This weeks fixtures as follows (lifted from the beeb):

Friday
POOL 1
Connacht v Bordeaux Bègles
20:00

POOL 3
Glasgow Warriors v Northampton Saints
20:00

EUROPEAN CHALLENGE CUP
POOL 3
ASM Clermont Auvergne v Edinburgh
20:00

....Guernsey vs Bury St Edmonds as well which is a biggy

Saturday
POOL 1
Bulls v Saracens
17:30

Bristol v Lyon
20:00

POOL 2
Bath v Ulster
15:15

Toulouse v Cardiff Rugby
15:15

POOL 3
Toulon v Exeter Chiefs
13:00

Munster v Bayonne
17:30

EUROPEAN CHALLENGE CUP
POOL 1
Zebre v Cheetahs
13:00

Sharks v Pau
15:15

Dragons v Oyonnax
20:00

POOL 2
Ospreys v Benetton
17:30

POOL 3
Black Lion v Gloucester
13:00

Castres v Scarlets
15:15

Sunday
POOL 2
Racing 92 v Harlequins
17:30

POOL 4
Sale v Stade Francais
13:00

La Rochelle v Leinster
15:15

Leicester Tigers v Stormers
15:15

EUROPEAN CHALLENGE CUP
POOL 2
Perpignan v Lions
13:00

Newcastle Falcons vMontpellier
15:15

I was just looking at the winning Prem teams in the Champions Cup there, bandwagon. It was an odd loss for Sarries. The best they've produced this season has been really good, significantly above what I've seen from other Prem teams. They've now lost two on the bounce with strong teams out, albeit some injury absentees.

Bulls have brought some really good players through/back under Jake White. The Le Roux/Arendse/Moodie back three on Saturday is fairly ridiculous. Their back row options are brutal too.

It's such a shame that Jacques du Plessis has barely got on the pitch since returning from France. For Montpellier he was an absolute freak for a sustained period. He looked like PSdT mk 2. Then he's struggled with injury since returning home. Hopefully he can get on the pitch again.

I should add, when saying above that the Quins performance was one of the best I've seen from an English side in years, I was meaning in the Champions Cup specifically. Even with the drop in week to week quality in the Prem it still has some very good games. The Sarries and Sale final last season being a great example. In terms of quality I found it a disappointing season overall but that match was a brutal intensity, as good as the Prem in its peak years. Prem sides have generally fared poorly in the KO stages of the Champions Cup for several years now, that Quins performance was as good as I've seen in that period.

king_carlos wrote:I was just looking at the winning Prem teams in the Champions Cup there, bandwagon. It was an odd loss for Sarries. The best they've produced this season has been really good, significantly above what I've seen from other Prem teams. They've now lost two on the bounce with strong teams out, albeit some injury absentees.

Bulls have brought some really good players through/back under Jake White. The Le Roux/Arendse/Moodie back three on Saturday is fairly ridiculous. Their back row options are brutal too.

It's such a shame that Jacques du Plessis has barely got on the pitch since returning from France. For Montpellier he was an absolute freak for a sustained period. He looked like PSdT mk 2. Then he's struggled with injury since returning home. Hopefully he can get on the pitch again.

I should add, when saying above that the Quins performance was one of the best I've seen from an English side in years, I was meaning in the Champions Cup specifically. Even with the drop in week to week quality in the Prem it still has some very good games. The Sarries and Sale final last season being a great example. In terms of quality I found it a disappointing season overall but that match was a brutal intensity, as good as the Prem in its peak years. Prem sides have generally fared poorly in the KO stages of the Champions Cup for several years now, that Quins performance was as good as I've seen in that period.

They have very strong depth in their back-row, but their front 5 is ridiculous too. Steenekamp and Louw are both mountains but can actually run and seem to destroy all opposition in the scrum. If they wanted to pick a Springbok team just from Bulls, they could. With du Plessis I'm not sure what actually happened to him, I didn't see him in the URC often but presumably it's lots of injuries. He still has time to go elsewhere and make a living.

It's a recurring achilles injury I believe with du Plessis. He first had an op on it with Montpellier. Such a shame. He's a brilliant player.

Louw and Akker were both really good players for them to bring back from the Prem. Nortje is a quality operator at second row too. The sort of player who would have more caps with another nation. It's a typically Jake White team.

Missed all the action at the weekend but huge credit to the English sides, who showed up really well. The comp needs strong English sides if it has any hope of returning to former glory.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Missed all the action at the weekend but huge credit to the English sides, who showed up really well. The comp needs strong English sides if it has any hope of returning to former glory.

Was a nice showing by the Premiership clubs in that first round. Hope it can continue - I agree the tournament needs good sides playing well from all leagues and countries to be what it can be.

FRIDAY

EUROPEAN CHAMPIONS CUP
POOL 3
Bayonne 20:00 Glasgow Warriors
Northampton Saints 20:00 Toulon


SATURDAY

EUROPEAN CHAMPIONS CUP
POOL 1
Saracens 13:00 Connacht
Bordeaux Bègles 15:15 Bristol
Lyon 17:30 Bulls
POOL 2
Cardiff Rugby 20:00 Bath
Ulster 20:00 Racing 92
POOL 4
Stormers 13:00 La Rochelle
Leinster 17:30 Sale

SUNDAY
EUROPEAN CHAMPIONS CUP
POOL 2
Harlequins 15:15 Toulouse
POOL 3
Exeter Chiefs 13:00 Munster
POOL 4
Stade Francais 17:30 Leicester Tigers

Kick off times in the middle (not score predictions!!)

Lot of potential for away wins there

Saints have named a less experienced side that I would have hoped to face Toulon tomorrow:
15 George Furbank (c)
14 Tom Seabrook
13 Tommy Freeman
12 Tom Litchfield
11 George Hendy
10 Fin Smith
9 Alex Mitchell

1 Ethan Waller
2 Curtis Langdon
3 Trevor Davison
4 Temo Mayanavanua
5 Alex Moon
6 Courtney Lawes
7 Tom Pearson
8 Sam Graham

Replacements:
16 Sam Matavesi
17 Tarek Haffar
18 Paul Hill
19 Tom Lockett
20 Juarno Augustus
21 Tom James
22 Charlie Savala – Northampton Saints debut
23 Ollie Sleightholme

Seabrook, Hendy and Litchfield are very inexperienced and Freeman has only played a handful of games at 13. Smith is still 21. Must be pushing the youngest set of backs they have ever put out.

Massive second row with Moon and Mayanavanua, by Saints standards anyway.

Good to see Juarno (Trokkie) Augustus on the bench, we have really missed his ability to carry in traffic.

Ribbans will be out to show England what they missed as I feel that his side-lining over the last few years contributed to his move.

Tigers for Stade away wrote:15 Mike Brown [15]

14 Anthony Watson [16]

13 Dan Kelly [67]

12 Solomone Kata [6]

11 Ollie Hassell-Collins [11]

10 Jamie Shillcock [12]

9 Tom Whiteley [16]

1 James Cronin [22]

2 Archie Vanes [10]

3 Joe Heyes [131]

4 George Martin [58]

5 Sam Carter [9]

6 Hanro Liebenberg (c) [96]

7 Matt Rogerson [11]

8 Kyle Hatherell [7]

REPLACEMENTS

16 Finn Theobold-Thomas [1]

17 James Whitcombe [43]

18 Will Hurd [33]

19 Harry Wells [184]

20 Emeka Ilione [16]

21 Joe Powell [7]

22 Charlie Atkinson [23]

23 Harry Simmons [35]

Rotation on the road as is sadly the case more often than not with this format.

Montoya, Cole, Chessum, Reffell, Wiese, Youngs, Pollard and Steward all missing despite being fit to my knowledge. Arguably Matt Scott missing is rotation too. He's been by a distance the best Tiger in the 13 channel this season.

It isn't a terrible Tigers 23 but the 2 SHs have frankly been poor this season. Whilst the hookers are both novices though talented. It's great to see Watson and Simmons back though. A needed boost to the back three options as injuries add up a bit for Tigers. George Martin was rumoured to be aiming for this weekend as his return but it's still a big boost too with Henderson out long term.

Rumours from Stade are that they might rotate at home as well as away. Concentrating on the Top 14 with that huge league season. So I'll wait for their team before any sort of prediction.

Quins vs Toulouse:

Starting XV:

1. Joe Marler (272)
2. Jack Walker (48)
3. Will Collier (227)
4. Joe Launchbury (10)
5. Dino Lamb (91)
6. James Chisholm (141)
7. Will Evans (74)
8. Alex Dombrandt (124 - Captain)
9. Will Porter (10)
10. Marcus Smith (146)
11. Cadan Murley (104)
12. Andre Esterhuizen (75)
13. Will Joseph (8)
14. Nick David (41)
15. Tyrone Green (60)

Impact Players:

16. Nathan Jibulu (11)
17. Fin Baxter (35)
18. Dillon Lewis (6)
19. Irne Herbst (31)
20. Chandler Cunningham-South (6)
21. Danny Care (363)
22. Jarrod Evans (9)
23. Oscar Beard (40)

Some rotation among the hookers and between the bench and the starting XV, but I suspect that's tactical. There's a nice balance of expertise and pace to bring on late in the game - I suspect Quins are hoping it will open up once the packs start to tire.

Toulouse

1 Baille
2 Mauvaka
3 Laulala
4 Arnold
5 Meafou
6 Cros
7 Jelonch
8 Roumat
9 Dupont
10 Ramos
11 Lebel
12 Ahki
13 Barassi
14 Delibes
15 Kinghorn

16 Cramont
17 Neti
18 Ainu'u
19 Faaselele
20 Placines
21 Germain
22 Costes
23 Chocobares

Some huge names in that squad, but Toulouse have a poor away record this season, so it will be interesting to see how they travel.

Beeb wrote:Stade Francais: Barre; Hamdaoui, Marchant, Jeremy Ward, Laloi, Segonds, Zabalza; Castets, Ivaldi, Alo-Emile, Gabrillagues, Pesenti, Macalou, Briatte, Hirigoyen.
Replacements: Peyresblanques, Alo-Emile, Kodela, Azagoh, Ahmed, Gimbert, Chapuis, Van der Mescht.
Leicester Tigers: Brown; Watson, Kelly, Kata, Hassell-Collins; Shillcock, Whiteley; Cronin, Vanes, Heyes, Martin, Carter, Liebenberg, Rogerson, Hatherell.
Replacements: Theobald-Thomas, Whitcombe, Hurd, Wells, Ilione, Powell, Atkinson, Simmons.
Referee: Nika Amashukeli

Stade going with a mix. Still plenty of rotation but notably stronger than last week at Sale.

Kockett and Webber rested at 9. Rotation at prop. Kylan Hamdaoui is predominantly a FB rather than wing as well. Plenty of returning quality and experience elsewhere though.

Given some rotation in key positions to clearly prioritise the league Tigers shouldn't be completely out of this. They've rotated themselves even more heavily though. If Tigers lose this then they should realistically be out the KOs with Leinster and La Rochelle the final two group games in the January block

Amashukeli is a quality ref. Could be a decent game.

Bristol, Sale & Leicester have all made about double digit changes to their starting xv, which sums up their priorities despite their good starts in this competition. Northampton have also changed six with some junior understudy's coming in.
Bath have rested Underhill and dropped Stuart to the bench but a little concerned on the back row players workload with both Hill and Bayliss still out injured.

If this Saints back line can fire, it could be something. Alex Mitchell is the oldest back out there (Tom James on the bench). Not sure why this exact lineup is out there...

doctor_grey wrote:If this Saints back line can fire, it could be something.  Alex Mitchell is the oldest back out there (Tom James on the bench).  Not sure why this exact lineup is out there...

Seabrook

10-3 at the half. No kidding, should be more.
I don't know how to say this without receiving a visit from those very nice men in the white coats, but:
Saints
appear
the
better
team

Recwatcher16 wrote:Bristol, Sale & Leicester have all made about double digit changes to their starting xv, which sums up their priorities despite their good starts in this competition. Northampton have also changed six with some junior understudy's coming in.
Bath have rested Underhill and dropped Stuart to the bench but a little concerned on the back row players workload with both Hill and Bayliss still out injured.

It's more to do with the ridiculous group format, than priorities imo. The jeopardy is completely gone, all you have to do is win a couple of home games and you're basically through. There's no reason to play your first team squad in every game if you want to compete on two fronts.

Lawes is simply great. With Pearson (who does not suck either) turned Toulon over whilst defending their line. Stud. Mensch. Great.

Saints should be further ahead - shame about the missed conversions as they were eminently kickable ...

Is it windy there tonight?

Nice

Let's hope Saints don't run out of backs

Wonderful play by Freeman. This worries me. Freeman keeps playing like this he might actually get called into the England squad.

Heaf wrote:Let's hope Saints don't run out of backs

We will just put Lawes in the back line. He is as fast any almost any of them.

doctor_grey wrote:

Heaf wrote:Let's hope Saints don't run out of backs

We will just put Lawes in the back line.  He is as fast any almost any of them.  

With 3 back line subs needed, Tom James, a scrum half, on the wing. Too many changes to remain consistent.

Toulon woken up - Saints need to keep scoring

That has to be a YC

In fact 2 YCs

Fair play to the officials - 100% correct

Rare to see two yellows against the same team on the same play.
Thought the high tackle was just a pen, but the deliberate knock was a clear yellow. Good for the good guys.

Yeah, I think that's the first time I've seen two yellows for two different incidents in the same passage of play. Collector's item.

Upright and shoulder to head contact has to be yellow

A conversion tonight - another collector's item

Tom Lockett!!!!! Another 21 year old Saint
Bonus point try.

22-19 to the Saintly....

Orgasmic
<<<need an emoji for that>>>

Courtney Lawes player of the match. The guy is just great.

Well done Saints - 2 from 2 against Glasgow and Toulon - who'd have thought ...

Courtney Lawes.

Glasgow showing there is still life in the URC with a great win down in Bayonne, an absolute bearpit of a place to play rugby!

doctor_grey wrote:Orgasmic
<<<need an emoji for that>>>




Courtney Lawes player of the match.  The guy is just great.  

Best I could do ...

BigGee wrote:Glasgow showing there is still life in the URC with a great win down in Bayonne, an absolute bearpit of a place to play rugby!

This competition is throwing up some good results so far ...

Ouch - Just seen that the Scarlets got beat at home by the Black Lions from Georgia 23-7. Not even close!

Fabulous result for the Georgians, but what the hell happened to the Scarlets?

Black Lions beat Scarlets. A bit of a shock.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Recwatcher16 wrote:Bristol, Sale & Leicester have all made about double digit changes to their starting xv, which sums up their priorities despite their good starts in this competition. Northampton have also changed six with some junior understudy's coming in.
Bath have rested Underhill and dropped Stuart to the bench but a little concerned on the back row players workload with both Hill and Bayliss still out injured.

It's more to do with the ridiculous group format, than priorities imo. The jeopardy is completely gone, all you have to do is win a couple of home games and you're basically through. There's no reason to play your first team squad in every game if you want to compete on two fronts.

Yep, I've mentioned it a few times but a format that allowed Ulster to qualify for the KOs with 1 pool win last year is just poor.

Then there's the double whammy of a few sides just clearly being so far ahead. Leinster, La Rochelle and Toulouse when they put their full teams out are way ahead of the field come the KOs.

A lot of sides are prioritising their domestic leagues. For most Prem teams and some URC that is just budget and squad size. For some of the Top 14 clubs it's length of season. They play 26 pool games, then either 2 or 3 KO games depending on where you are in the playoffs. So either 28 or 29 league games if you want to win the gong. Compared to a max of 20 in the Prem now.

Tigers are a great example in the last two seasons. They've won 7 from 8 pool games in that time (albeit one covid cancellation they were awarded) even whilst rotating pretty heavily on the road. Which sounds pretty promising. When they've met Leinster in the KOs it's not been close though.

A majority of sides seem to be naming weaker sides here than they are in their leagues. Which is a shame for a once great tournament. The KOs still have some brilliant games mind. The back to back Leinster-La Rochelle finals were as good as club rugby gets. Many internationals happen at a lower standard and intensity than those games.

doctor_grey wrote:Orgasmic
<<<need an emoji for that>>>

Courtney Lawes player of the match.  The guy is just great.  

I'd absolutely love it if big Courts just kept being international class in club rugby and snuck onto another Lions tour next summer to cap his career. Just a fantastic flanker now. Aged like a fine wine.

king_carlos wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Recwatcher16 wrote:Bristol, Sale & Leicester have all made about double digit changes to their starting xv, which sums up their priorities despite their good starts in this competition. Northampton have also changed six with some junior understudy's coming in.
Bath have rested Underhill and dropped Stuart to the bench but a little concerned on the back row players workload with both Hill and Bayliss still out injured.

It's more to do with the ridiculous group format, than priorities imo. The jeopardy is completely gone, all you have to do is win a couple of home games and you're basically through. There's no reason to play your first team squad in every game if you want to compete on two fronts.

Yep, I've mentioned it a few times but a format that allowed Ulster to qualify for the KOs with 1 pool win last year is just poor.

Then there's the double whammy of a few sides just clearly being so far ahead. Leinster, La Rochelle and Toulouse when they put their full teams out are way ahead of the field come the KOs.

A lot of sides are prioritising their domestic leagues. For most Prem teams and some URC that is just budget and squad size. For some of the Top 14 clubs it's length of season. They play 26 pool games, then either 2 or 3 KO games depending on where you are in the playoffs. So either 28 or 29 league games if you want to win the gong. Compared to a max of 20 in the Prem now.

Tigers are a great example in the last two seasons. They've won 7 from 8 pool games in that time (albeit one covid cancellation they were awarded) even whilst rotating pretty heavily on the road. Which sounds pretty promising. When they've met Leinster in the KOs it's not been close though.

A majority of sides seem to be naming weaker sides here than they are in their leagues. Which is a shame for a once great tournament. The KOs still have some brilliant games mind. The back to back Leinster-La Rochelle finals were as good as club rugby gets. Many internationals happen at a lower standard and intensity than those games.

The euro competition's have been deducted one week by the Union's, in part because of the world cup and to reduce the number of games during the 6N. So this format is fine and better than last year. The lamented 6 game pools still threw up plenty of dead rubbers anyway.

king_carlos wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Orgasmic
<<<need an emoji for that>>>

Courtney Lawes player of the match.  The guy is just great.  

I'd absolutely love it if big Courts just kept being international class in club rugby and snuck onto another Lions tour next summer to cap his career. Just a fantastic flanker now. Aged like a fine wine.

Me too, mate. A fitting way for him to cap his career. I really think he is playing the best of his career and only hope it continues.

For the record, I have aged as well. It's just that I aged like bad moonshine....

Hmm you're allowed to make tackles off your feet now?

Wow. Interesting breakdown.

Wow. Interesting breakdown.

I don't get this stupid penalising the player that retaliates nonsense. If they penalise the instigator then fewer players would try to wind-up the opposition in the first place ...