Re: England Getting Four Wins in the Six Nations - A New Thread

[Geordie]

First topic message reminder :

2 tries for Hartley at 12 .

Fdjour decent first scrum then missed some tackles etc.
Sales two wingers Reed and Roebuck were very impressive....

Bath v Cardiff now...lots of potential England options here.

[king_carlos]

12 weeks for Williams will have been entry point. For a mid-range offence (Barbeary's) the entry point is 6 weeks. For a top end offence it's 10 weeks, here the panel deemed 12 weeks more appropriate.

Both were then halved due to the players pleading guilty and previous good record.

Record has nothing to do with entry point though. That's just how the panel view the challenge. Initial contact is often a large part of that with these sorts of challenges. I've only seen brief highlights of Williams' challenge from a couple of angles, but, it looks like first contact is head on head, he's very upright. Likely why it's top end.

[mikey_dragon]

Thanks for the info KC. I remember during Covid rugby everyone was getting Red’s, seems to have eased off but I’m still used to everything being Red.

[king_carlos]

Both tackles were deemed to be reds by the citing panel. Just different danger levels, so different entry points on the bans.

There was a definite shift in officiating during the RWC, following the Tom Curry ban though.

[No 7&1/2]

Both tackles were deemed to be reds by the citing panel. Just different danger levels, so different entry points on the bans.

There was a definite shift in officiating during the RWC, following the Tom Curry ban though.

2nd was dismissed?

[king_carlos]

We're discussing Barbeary and Johnny Williams tackles there.

[No 7&1/2]

Some quotes from Borthwick on the bbc. Unsurprising given his preferences over the years now but looks like England will continue with the core tactics they've shown in the past year. If we can get in the lead and the teams panic then we stand a good chance of keeping games tight. Reckon the rolling maul must surely be the thong they really want to improve. There were signs it was on its way but wasn't quite producing the threat we need.

'England adopted a territory and kick-pressure plan in France, especially in the semi-final against South Africa. According to the World Rugby website, they kicked 93% of their possession against the Springboks, an extraordinary statistic even accounting for the wet conditions.

This plan was executed to near-perfection though, with England's kickers superbly accurate and their wingers brilliant in the air. But do England need to develop more of an attacking edge going forward, especially with the players at their disposal behind the scrum?

Borthwick says "without question" the gameplan will be tweaked, while relying on the strong foundations built in France.

"There are a few things that I look at [with regards a gameplan]," he explained.

"One is the players you have available. The second part is almost the DNA of the team and understanding what is the foundation of the team's success in the past. And it's very clear what's been the foundation of England's success in the past.

"And the third is what wins in the competition you are part of. In international rugby that is different to club rugby and the Six Nations is different to the World Cup.

"My role is to bring these things together and give players real clarity. Go on to the field and bring all your talents, my job is to give them a real plan to go after."

[mountain man]

must surely be the thong they really want to improve.

Ah, that's the problem with Borthwicks team for you, it's the dress code.

[formerly known as Sam]

I think there will be the emphasis on set piece still. I can't see us playing out of our own half, we'll use the kick tactics there. The aggressive defence we saw at the world cup will be worked on some more so that it's even more brutal.

The big change I think will be in the opposition half. Yes rolling mauls need tuning up but I also think we'll see a lot more first phase strike moves from our set piece. Borthwick likes his team's to be clinical so he won't be happy with how we converted red zone visits to tries. I'd expect us to up the ruck speed and offer a little more variety ball in hand. I wouldn't expect Baabaas stuff but certainly a shift towards more interplay and a higher tempo in the opposition half and particularly their 22.

[mountain man]

Not many teams do play out of own half, it's perfectly fine even optimal to kick for territory when in own 22/half but it's the kicking when in opposition 22 that is so infuriating especially when there are better options open.

I dont think anyone expects England to come out all guns blazing and throw ball around. A forward based game and solid defence is one we expect from Borthwick but a bit more attack intent wouldn't go amiss.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

Even saints, probably the most attacking team in the Prem only attack out of their 22 on the odd occasion, they do it just to keep the opposition wingers a bit further up the field allowing a bit of space in behind, which they kick into. Works very well, but often, there is no real attacking intent, unless something happens and the opposition make a mistake, they are just drawing the deep defence forward a bit.

[No 7&1/2]

must surely be the thong they really want to improve.

Ah, that's the problem with Borthwicks team for you, it's the dress code.

Oh god. I have visions of LCD.

[No 7&1/2]

I think there will be the emphasis on set piece still. I can't see us playing out of our own half, we'll use the kick tactics there. The aggressive defence we saw at the world cup will be worked on some more so that it's even more brutal.

The big change I think will be in the opposition half. Yes rolling mauls need tuning up but I also think we'll see a lot more first phase strike moves from our set piece. Borthwick likes his team's to be clinical so he won't be happy with how we converted red zone visits to tries. I'd expect us to up the ruck speed and offer a little more variety ball in hand. I wouldn't expect Baabaas stuff but certainly a shift towards more interplay and a higher tempo in the opposition half and particularly their 22.

And can Wigglesworth bring that? Massively inexperienced and frankly under qualified.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

I see George as a minor injury that is going to keep him from training for a week or so.

[formerly known as Sam]

Even saints, probably the most attacking team in the Prem only attack out of their 22 on the odd occasion, they do it just to keep the opposition wingers a bit further up the field allowing a bit of space in behind, which they kick into. Works very well, but often, there is no real attacking intent, unless something happens and the opposition make a mistake, they are just drawing the deep defence forward a bit.

Was interesting to hear Fin Smith at the start of the season say that tactical kicking and game management were his focus for improvement. He's definitely showed it this season, his range and variety of kicking really makes life difficult for the opposition back field and gives his chasers something to go after.

Saints tweaks to their tactics this season with added physicality, a competent defence and just playing the percentages/territory a bit more has seen the improve substantially. Dowson and Vesty did well identifying and addressing those areas of weakness.

[formerly known as Sam]

I think there will be the emphasis on set piece still. I can't see us playing out of our own half, we'll use the kick tactics there. The aggressive defence we saw at the world cup will be worked on some more so that it's even more brutal.

The big change I think will be in the opposition half. Yes rolling mauls need tuning up but I also think we'll see a lot more first phase strike moves from our set piece. Borthwick likes his team's to be clinical so he won't be happy with how we converted red zone visits to tries. I'd expect us to up the ruck speed and offer a little more variety ball in hand. I wouldn't expect Baabaas stuff but certainly a shift towards more interplay and a higher tempo in the opposition half and particularly their 22.

And can Wigglesworth bring that? Massively inexperienced and frankly under qualified.

Yeah Wigglesworth as attack coach wouldn't be my choice either. Rumours are that Felix Jones will have a broad remit and even looking after the defence with the Boks he used to take on first phase attack moves. Borthwick likes his defence and attack coaches to work together a bit so hopefully it's not just Wigglesworth.

[carpet baboon]

must surely be the thong they really want to improve.

Ah, that's the problem with Borthwicks team for you, it's the dress code.

Oh god. I have visions of LCD.

Hey we don't kink shame here. Let your freak flag fly

[carpet baboon]

Frustrated Mercer 'done for time being' with England - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/68023982

Interesting read

[mountain man]

Yeah well if he hadn't blown his chances by not impressing Borthwick by his rugby ability he certainly has now by airing dirty laundry in public.

[Geordie]

Mercer moaning is pretty poor actually...rather than get his head down like Barbeary or more so Dombrandt and just try to improve his game and make SB pick him.

He may well go back to France soon...

[No 7&1/2]

So many ruling themselves out of playing for Borthwick.

[Mr Bounce]

Unfortunately he'll be another Steffon Armitage. A player who every rugby pundit raves about but is rarely picked.

I think SB is counting on Earl and Dombrandt filling in for now before probably taking Barbeary and Tom Willis on the summer tour as the 8s. They fit his gameplan more.

Mercer doesn't fit "right" for Borthwick. He's a really good player, but not the carrier SB wants obviously. He probably shouldn't have had a moan, but that's his frustration coming out. He should have gone to RWC instead of bleeping Billy though.

[mikey_dragon]

Mercer looks really good from what I've seen. England seem to have a few promising players at 6 and 8, but Mercer is surely up there with the best in the country.

[No 7&1/2]

Ooh Josh Hodge is back in Exeters lineup. Started the season in great form. Again not really a Borthwick player but he could push in coming seasons.

[Tramptastic]

I think with Mercer, to a similar extent Simmonds and a lesser extant Earl, suffers from the bias coaches can have about what an 8 should be - a giant amongst men who rampages with every ball carry - Vunipola, Vermuelan, Savea, Aldritt etc.

Earl has overcome this but the other 2 never got the chances they probably deserved. Mercer would be welcomed with open arms in Scotland, Italy, Wales, probably France, New Zealand as well. It must be frustrating having achieved what Mercer did in France (1 season to win the title as 1st choice 8), come back on promises made by Jones that he'll get a fair look in and then not even picked for the world cup by Borthwick despite being the form 8.

That must be frustrating as heck. Wrong coach, wrong gameplan, wrong player. Doesn't help that he's playing for gloucester of course.

[king_carlos]

It feels like a lazy title to the article from the Beeb. 'Done for time being', suggests off the bat that he's somehow retiring or ruling himself out. Whereas in the context of the full quotes it's a player not mincing his words in saying he's going to concentrate on his club performances after having a frank exchange with the coach over not being picked. It feels like a classic case of the media wanting more interesting players who are less sterilised by PR training, then the second they get someone with personality, proving why most players try to say nothing.

As said a few times, I struggle to see Mercer thriving at international level though. There aren't any consistently successful 8s I can think of who are less powerful in contact. Even the converted flankers such as Ardie and Earl are stronger in contact.

I've said it before, but, the closest I can think of who's a success at international level is Beka Gorgadze. Even then I think he's a stronger ball carrier plus he's a fantastic lineout operator and teams can build their kick return around him as he can genuinely compete balls in the air as I haven't seen another forward do. He sets up as a part of the back field rather than just a forward sitting back but being a spare part until he gets passed the ball to truck it up. Which can be effective, but, loses a man in the d-line.

Maybe Matt Fagerson is slightly similar. Even then, he has a huge defensive work rate that is sometimes overlooked. Plus, if England had Fagerson as their 8 long term most fans would be crying about conservative selection.

Jack Dempsey and Lorenzo Cannone came to mind for comparison, but, I'd definitely say both are more reliable carriers against set defences.

I think Mercer's a good player, but, I just don't see it translating.

[Yoda]

I'm not on the mercer hype train. He's never overly impressed me over anyone else. I always prefer a hard edge to my forwards.

[formerly known as Sam]

Ooh Josh Hodge is back in Exeters lineup. Started the season in great form. Again not really a Borthwick player but he could push in coming seasons.

Why isn't he? Good in the air, quick on the kick chase and can reliably beat his man and finish. Not dissimilar to Ant Watson who Borthwick brought to Tigers or May who Borthwick took to the world cup.

Hodge might find himself playing wing rather than fullback mind.

[No 7&1/2]

Ooh Josh Hodge is back in Exeters lineup. Started the season in great form. Again not really a Borthwick player but he could push in coming seasons.

Why isn't he? Good in the air, quick on the kick chase and can reliably beat his man and finish. Not dissimilar to Ant Watson who Borthwick brought to Tigers or May who Borthwick took to the world cup.

Hodge might find himself playing wing rather than fullback mind.

He would be asked not to take risks and run. Negating his main strengths.

[king_carlos]

Please, don't do it to yourself, Sam. Just don't buddy. It's like trying to catch fog with a net.

[Geordie]

Guys please don't "quote" 7 5....life is nice now I don't see his wind ups....

Josh Hodge isn't a SB player...

[No 7&1/2]

And if you're throwing toys out the pram geordie just don't mention me.

But no Borthwick wouldn't get the beat or anywhere near out of Hodge. He d be ask to chase kicks the same as everyone else.
You ve all read the quotes. He has a clear vision of how he needs to play the game.

[king_carlos]

I used to come here to get away from BBC HYS levels of discussion.

"wHY dOn'T tHEy JUsT kIcK dA bALl leSs"
"tHEy iS kIlLIng tE gAME"
"UuGH ugH rUNniNG RUgBy"
"iT a gaME oF EvASiOn"
"wHY DO thEY chOOSeN plAyERs oLDeR thAN tWenTY tHReE"
"i KNoW lOOk tOo tE fUTuRE tImES nOW"

[Geordie]

Kc...

What effect do you think Felix Jones will have....I think k it will be quite considerable...

[No 7&1/2]

I used to come here to get away from BBC HYS levels of discussion.

"wHY dOn'T tHEy JUsT kIcK dA bALl leSs"
"tHEy iS kIlLIng tE gAME"
"UuGH ugH rUNniNG RUgBy"
"iT a gaME oF EvASiOn"
"wHY DO thEY chOOSeN plAyERs oLDeR thAN tWenTY tHReE"
"i KNoW lOOk tOo tE fUTuRE tImES nOW"

Jesus. We should just kick 93% of our ball away and lose.

[king_carlos]

Kc...

What effect do you think Felix Jones will have....I think k it will be quite considerable...

He's widely regarded as one of the best coaches in the game.

He's been credited as having a significant impact on the evolution of the Boks defence alongside Nienaber. When Rassie took over they had a blitz with absurd line speed but it could be beaten. Then they just built in safeguard after safeguard to allow the same aggression without being beaten on either side of it. In way it's given this Boks outfit the best of a blitz and drift system which is very impressive.

Then he was also instrumental in their set-piece attacking moves. Things like the cross field bombs that paved the way to beating France at home in the QFs. When it comes to analysing an opposition defence he is meant to be one of the best.

It's an ideal addition as he can coach attack and defence to such a high level.

[king_carlos]

I used to come here to get away from BBC HYS levels of discussion.

"wHY dOn'T tHEy JUsT kIcK dA bALl leSs"
"tHEy iS kIlLIng tE gAME"
"UuGH ugH rUNniNG RUgBy"
"iT a gaME oF EvASiOn"
"wHY DO thEY chOOSeN plAyERs oLDeR thAN tWenTY tHReE"
"i KNoW lOOk tOo tE fUTuRE tImES nOW"

Jesus. We should just kick 93% of our ball away and lose.

"i kNOw iF tHEy HAd JUsT dOnE tE kIcK KIcK lEsS thEn tHEy gEt tE wIN WiN aND lIfT tHE sHInY cUP uP iN tE aIR AiR"

[Geordie]

Kc...

What effect do you think Felix Jones will have....I think k it will be quite considerable...

He's widely regarded as one of the best coaches in the game.

He's been credited as having a significant impact on the evolution of the Boks defence alongside Nienaber. When Rassie took over they had a blitz with absurd line speed but it could be beaten. Then they just built in safeguard after safeguard to allow the same aggression without being beaten on either side of it. In way it's given this Boks outfit the best of a blitz and drift system which is very impressive.

Then he was also instrumental in their set-piece attacking moves. Things like the cross field bombs that paved the way to beating France at home in the QFs. When it comes to analysing an opposition defence he is meant to be one of the best.

It's an ideal addition as he can coach attack and defence to such a high level.

Yeah that's Mt thoughts...very optimistic about this 6n to be honest.
If people are looking for scintillating rugby they will be disappointed but i think we will be putting some meat on the basics of the world Cup.. and I think we'll be a team that noone wants to play.

It'll be physical uncompromising and if we can stsrt to bring an attack through with some efficiency..we might surprise a few aswell....we have some players rhat can win matches with the likes of Freeman efc looking very impressive.

[No 7&1/2]

I used to come here to get away from BBC HYS levels of discussion.

"wHY dOn'T tHEy JUsT kIcK dA bALl leSs"
"tHEy iS kIlLIng tE gAME"
"UuGH ugH rUNniNG RUgBy"
"iT a gaME oF EvASiOn"
"wHY DO thEY chOOSeN plAyERs oLDeR thAN tWenTY tHReE"
"i KNoW lOOk tOo tE fUTuRE tImES nOW"

Jesus. We should just kick 93% of our ball away and lose.

"i kNOw iF tHEy HAd JUsT dOnE tE kIcK KIcK lEsS thEn tHEy gEt tE wIN WiN aND lIfT tHE sHInY cUP uP iN tE aIR AiR"

Wow.

[king_carlos]

There are a few areas where I have ideas on how they might evolve the tactics. Then others where I'm less sure - the defensive structure Jones will choose for these players being the main one. The main things that come to mind are:

Strike moves
I'm expecting them to develop set moves off early phases. In the RWC they had clear patterns built over many phases to manufacture positions for drop goals. I'm expecting similar but aimed at being more clinical in the opposition 22. It's what Borthwick did at Tigers. Early in his reign the attack was the maul. Latterly they started using that as a means of manufacturing one vs ones wider out for runners such as Nadolo and Steward. It was very efficient near the line. Wiese's try against Sarries in the final from a pre-planned penalty tap move is another good example. Clearly designed to target Goode being hidden as the short side guard when Sarries were on their own line.

Lineout
If we have two back rows such as Earl and Underhill that don't offer much as jumpers or lifters then I wouldn't be surprised to see numbers cut more often. Itoje/Chessum/Coles potentially being used at 4/5/6 along with the props to give them the option of mauling. From there you can set with Earl or Underhill in the SH spot to add a 7th forward for a potential maul, or the option of a peel move to shift the point of contact to Mitchell. Or set up with Mitchell at 9, use the increased retention chances of a shortened lineout to retain the ball, then a briefly set maul is a good option for running Earl and Lawrence off Mitchell with Underhill in support, or to simply give your 9 an easy setup from which to clear.

Defence
An area I'm really interested in as we've seen different systems used across a short reign. Very soft line speed aimed at high tackle completion. Higher line speed with Earl and Curry flying up for dominant hits. Games where multiple players attack the breakdown. Games where only individuals have. I'm interested to see where the Jones input leads this part of England's game. Ever since Gustard the defence has gone through interesting reinventions under multiple coaches. It's a group that seem comfortable with differing systems.

Back field structure
This is one area I'm expecting them to continue with a similar game plan with both halfbacks dropping back very often to control the kick tennis. Steward being manoeuvred into the most likely area for contestable high balls. A half back used to return kicks when possible. Then Freeman and Daly both able to cover a lot of ground to facilitate that. It's an area that England's tactics were intelligent and showed promise through the Six Nations and RWC.

Box kicking and kick chase
In the SF they went for that dangerous tactic of landing kicks around the 5m line. High risk, high reward, but, unusual. They also contested either in the air or the tackle coming down from it. During the Six Nations they adopted the Quins tactics of kicking on the front foot, looking for grass, trying to find net gains when the opposition are forced to put the ball into touch. These are in contrast to Borthwick's tactics at Tigers where they kicked long, targeting players likely to carry the ball back and aimed to compete the phase after that ensuing ruck. Allowing the defence to be set whilst the opposition are restructuring their attack. With a change of 10 and a new wing on at least one side, it will be interesting to see how they evolve this. Curry and Lawes were also vital cogs in the chase. Again, will they fit new personnel into old tactics? Or try something new as they did in the final?

[mountain man]

I think I'll just wait and see how the team plays.

[No 7&1/2]

Didn't realise Cunningham-South had such a nz twang. Should be unsurprising given he spent the vast majority of his life there of course.

Him and Roots pole position for 6 you'd think.

Didn't realise Kelly is available again for Ireland this summer.

[formerly known as Sam]

Didn't realise Kelly is available again for Ireland this summer.

In theory he is but they don't select from outside of Irish sides and he signed a new Tigers deal a year ago so will have at least one more season after this at Tigers. If the Irish want him they'll have to change their own regulations or pay Tigers for an early release.

I would be surprised to see Kelly in the A side and us just keep his eligibility English. He's only 22 still.

[No 7&1/2]

Hopefully that puts them off. Granted they have am array of great centres anyway. Just gets me a bit nervous as I'd have him in the squad every time.

[Poorfour]

Several knocks at the weekend - it will be interesting to see if it forces any sqaud changes and if there are any surprise call ups.

Louis Lynagh isn't long back from injury, but certainly showed his strength and ability to kick chase...

[Geordie]

Lynagh looked excellent didnt he.

[mountain man]

Several knocks at the weekend - it will be interesting to see if it forces any sqaud changes and if there are any surprise call ups.

Louis Lynagh isn't long back from injury, but certainly showed his strength and ability to kick chase...  

Barbeary in maybe?

[Geordie]

Yeah i think Barbeary needs to be in.

Has Underhill taken a knock? Or just rested for last weekend?

Any thoughts on the back row set up yet

And Marcus v FIn...im wondering if Fin Smith is more up SBs type of 10...

[mountain man]

I reckon Marcus starts at 10 with Fin bench then say 60 mins Fin to 10 Marcus to 15. Especially as it's Italy, ideal chance to test.

Back row, Earl, Barbeary, C-CS. Pace power sorted. It won't happen but I'd love to see it.

[Poorfour]

Yeah i think Barbeary needs to be in.

Has Underhill taken a knock? Or just rested for last weekend?

Any thoughts on the back row set up yet

And Marcus v FIn...im wondering if Fin Smith is more up SBs type of 10...

Borthwick may not feel the same way, despite the short ban. He prioritises fitness and discipline which are still two areas Barbeary needs to work on.

Which Smith prevails - and it's a good bet that both will play - may depend on how far Borthwick and his coaches think England need to evolve tactically, and whether he can assemble a squad that can give Smith M the targets he needs and the space to exploit them. That's more likely if they have carried forward the fitness they had at the RWC, so there's more time to focus on tactics than cardio and gym work.

[Geordie]

Yeah i think Barbeary needs to be in.

Has Underhill taken a knock? Or just rested for last weekend?

Any thoughts on the back row set up yet

And Marcus v FIn...im wondering if Fin Smith is more up SBs type of 10...

Borthwick may not feel the same way, despite the short ban. He prioritises fitness and discipline which are still two areas Barbeary needs to work on.

Which Smith prevails - and it's a good bet that both will play - may depend on how far Borthwick and his coaches think England need to evolve tactically, and whether he can assemble a squad that can give Smith M the targets he needs and the space to exploit them. That's more likely if they have carried forward the fitness they had at the RWC, so there's more time to focus on tactics than cardio and gym work.

He does...however hes SBs type of 8...so Barbeary starts...Dombrandt finishes the game as it opens up?

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