England U20s Six Nations

First topic message reminder :

Squad has been named for the Italy game.  


15 Ben Redshaw (Newcastle Falcons)
14 Toby Cousins (Northampton Saints) *
13 Ben Waghorn (Harlequins) *
12 Sean Kerr (Harlequins)
11 Alex Wills (Sale Sharks) *

10 Rory Taylor (Gloucester Rugby)
9 Archie McParland (Northampton Saints)

1 Asher Opoku-Fordjour (Sale Sharks) *
2 Craig Wright (Northampton Saints) *
3 Billy Sela (Bath Rugby)
4 Olamide Sodeke (Saracens)
5 Junior Kpoku (Racing 92)
6 Finn Carnduff (c) (Leicester Tigers) *
7 Henry Pollock (Northampton Saints)
8 Zach Carr (Harlequins) *


Replacements

16 Jacob Oliver (Newcastle Falcons)
17 Scott Kirk (Bath Rugby)
18 James Halliwell (Bristol Bears) *
19 Joe Bailey (Exeter Chiefs) *
20 Nathan Michelow (Saracens) *
21 Ben Douglas (Newcastle Falcons)
22 Josh Bellamy (Harlequins)
23 Ollie Spencer (Newcastle)

Some good players, the two starting props are beasts for this level, both exceptional in the loose.  There are quite a few other recognisable names in there (and ones I'm not too familiar with).  To be honest we could do with another strong generation.  The last couple of tournaments the performances have been pretty underwhelming.

doctor_grey wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:Has Pollock taken a load of ultimate orange?

Do you think he knew he was on the big screen?

Methinks the lad might be a wee bit wired at times.  

Not sure what was going on, but he was very good tonight and last week. If he's annoying the opposition and fans, he is clearly doing a lot right...

mikey_dragon wrote:England were sloppy tonight, Wales too obviously. If England played to their potential and the ref wasn't favourable to Wales that could have been 100 points put on them. Dick Whiffin and Howley not good enough but it's jobs for the boyo's again.

Dick Whiffin? Please tell me that’s a joke name?!

TAFKA The Oracle wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:England were sloppy tonight, Wales too obviously. If England played to their potential and the ref wasn't favourable to Wales that could have been 100 points put on them. Dick Whiffin and Howley not good enough but it's jobs for the boyo's again.

Dick Whiffin? Please tell me that’s a joke name?!

I think it's his nickname.

https://www.wru.wales/staff/richard-whiffin/

mikey_dragon wrote:England were sloppy tonight, Wales too obviously. If England played to their potential and the ref wasn't favourable to Wales that could have been 100 points put on them. Dick Whiffin and Howley not good enough but it's jobs for the boyo's again.

Would also help if they didn't lose the ball going over the line a few times. Better decision making on the Wales line would have helped too.

In my opinion the most important thing at this level is the learning curve and I'm not sure that either team can be satisfied by it after that. Wales were pummelled for 60+ minutes and didn't really offer a lot. England had a very dominant forward display but didn't really do a lot with it.

What do Sela and AOF learn from the the opposition melting in front of them?

I think there was a tongue in cheek comment about the England full back, but I think it is closer to the mark, he looked a cut above (the other backs) and I'll be amazed if he doesn't have Welsh heritage and ends up opting for Wales at some point

I’m not sure the ins and outs, but I think Jones and the replacement back-row James are Welsh. Like Hathaway and Jenkins I hope they come back, we need the help…

Usually you see a lot of Welsh around the West Country and Liverpool.

TBH, Wales did well to hang in there. I nearly didn't watch it, as I expected a mauling and to be overpowered. I didn't expect the scrum to be quite as horrendous, but it was. Not sure how much the one lad is playing for RGC, but it is worrying for the whole Welsh front row there.

Seeing as Dragons are constantly mentioning budgets and blooding youngsters, we really need to look at the 15 (Anderson) ASAP.

mikey_dragon wrote:I’m not sure the ins and outs, but I think Jones and the replacement back-row James are Welsh. Like Hathaway and Jenkins I hope they come back, we need the help…

Usually you see a lot of Welsh around the West Country and Liverpool.

Commentary said James played U18 for Wales. I tried searching for Jones. He ws brought up outside Stroud - I would bet parents are Welsh but has lived most if not all his life in England.

Cumbrian wrote:I think it is good that Wales reminded England that they are still there, they need to guard against complacency.  

Pollock has the markings of an exceptional player, but I hate to say it... Is he big enough?  I only say it because I remember Alex Gray.  He looked amazing at this level, but didn't have the physicality to make it at senior level.  Pollock is only young though, so should naturally put on timber.

Age 19. With the usual provisos about reported stats he's currently listed (using mixed units!) as 6' 2'' and 100kg. Worth pointing out that Earl and Simmonds are both 6' 0'' and around 107-108 kg. He should be able to get big enough

lostinwales wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:I’m not sure the ins and outs, but I think Jones and the replacement back-row James are Welsh. Like Hathaway and Jenkins I hope they come back, we need the help…

Usually you see a lot of Welsh around the West Country and Liverpool.

Commentary said James played U18 for Wales. I tried searching for Jones. He ws brought up outside Stroud - I would bet parents are Welsh but has lived most if not all his life in England.

Yeah possibly. It could be another Lloyd Evans type thing, both are at Gloucester.

lostinwales wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:I think it is good that Wales reminded England that they are still there, they need to guard against complacency.  

Pollock has the markings of an exceptional player, but I hate to say it... Is he big enough?  I only say it because I remember Alex Gray.  He looked amazing at this level, but didn't have the physicality to make it at senior level.  Pollock is only young though, so should naturally put on timber.

Age 19. With the usual provisos about reported stats he's currently listed (using mixed units!) as 6' 2'' and 100kg. Worth pointing out that Earl and Simmonds are both 6' 0'' and around 107-108 kg. He should be able to get big enough

Pollock is big enough for an open-side if you want that fetcher type, but he is good at everything else as well.

mikey_dragon wrote:There’s some good players up front for England. Wales’ scrum is embarrassingly bad though.

Yup it is a strong pack this year. Props Opoku & Sela, locks Kpoku & Sodeke plus flankers Carnduff & Pollock could all have good careers. Backs not so impressive although McParland and Redshaw are eligible again next year. Plus Ioan Jones was solid at full back.

mikey_dragon wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:I’m not sure the ins and outs, but I think Jones and the replacement back-row James are Welsh. Like Hathaway and Jenkins I hope they come back, we need the help…

Usually you see a lot of Welsh around the West Country and Liverpool.

Commentary said James played U18 for Wales. I tried searching for Jones. He ws brought up outside Stroud - I would bet parents are Welsh but has lived most if not all his life in England.

Yeah possibly. It could be another Lloyd Evans type thing, both are at Gloucester.

Exactly the same. I believe both Jones & Evans are from Gloucestershire with an English mother and Welsh father.

Flintoff05 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:There’s some good players up front for England. Wales’ scrum is embarrassingly bad though.

Yup it is a strong pack this year. Props Opoku & Sela, locks Kpoku & Sodeke plus flankers Carnduff & Pollock could all have good careers. Backs not so impressive although McParland and Redshaw are eligible again next year. Plus Ioan Jones was solid at full back.

mikey_dragon wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:I’m not sure the ins and outs, but I think Jones and the replacement back-row James are Welsh. Like Hathaway and Jenkins I hope they come back, we need the help…

Usually you see a lot of Welsh around the West Country and Liverpool.

Commentary said James played U18 for Wales. I tried searching for Jones. He ws brought up outside Stroud - I would bet parents are Welsh but has lived most if not all his life in England.

Yeah possibly. It could be another Lloyd Evans type thing, both are at Gloucester.

Exactly the same. I believe both Jones & Evans are from Gloucestershire with an English mother and Welsh father.

Thanks for the info. Worth pointing out that the two giants Kpoku and Sodeke are both only 18, so could (in theory, depending on birthdays) be in the U20's for another couple of years. If Kpoku fulfills his promise I wouldn't be surprised to see him wearing blue instead of white.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:Free kick?  They just destroyed the Welsh pack,  odd take.

Tbf. Going backwards isn't against the law.

I didn't see the game, but that's spot on. Wayne Barnes once put it (at a Meet the Ref evening) that a prop under pressure has a couple of options: they can pop up, they can go down or they can go backwards. Two of those are likely to result in a penalty, but "they've always go the option to go backwards".

True however quite often see refs giving a penalty because a scrum is retreating and seemingly no other reason.

mountain man wrote:True however quite often see refs giving a penalty because a scrum is retreating and seemingly no other reason.

I think there's often some technical offence that triggers it - it's hard to resist being shunted backwards without at some point popping up, going to a knee, dropping your bind or ending up with an illegal body angle. Watching when refs put their arm out, it's usually at the point where the scrum has moved a couple of yards and starts to get disorganised.

That said, the trend has also been towards not blowing up for a collapsed scrum as long as it's safe and the ball is available.

England U20 squad vs Scotland (copied shamelessly from tw@tter)

1) Opoku-Fordjour
2) Wright
3) Sela
4) Bailey
5) Carnduff (C)
6) Michelow
7) Pollock
8) Carr
9) McParland
10) Bellamy
11) Wills
12) Kerr
13) Redshaw
14) Cousins
15) Jones

No Sodeke? He was really good against Wales despite being carded.

The U20 Six Nations has generally seen some rotation from England in recent years. Then they try to settle on a strongest team for the JRWC.

Sodeke, Kpoku, Michelow Taylor and Spencer are all rated players that were starting last week. It's looks a bit like shuffling through options to me.

mountain man wrote:No Sodeke? He was really good against Wales despite being carded.

No Kpoku either - all new boiler room with Carnduff moving over from 6

Subs/

16 Jacob Oliver (Newcastle Falcons)

17 Scott Kirk (Bath Rugby)

18 Afolabi Fasogbon (Gloucester Rugby)

19 Harry Browne (Harlequins)

20 Kane James (Exeter Chiefs)

21 Ben Douglas (Newcastle Falcons)

22 Rory Taylor (Gloucester Rugby)

23 Ben Waghorn (Harlequins)

Fasogbon is a big ol' boy to be throwing off the bench at U20s.

king_carlos wrote:Fasogbon is a big ol' boy to be throwing off the bench at U20s.

The U20's pack with Kpoku/Sodeke and Fasogbon would be massive

Problem with U20s though in first two matches rather similar to senior side, or certainly past senior sides who had massive pack but when backs get ball they've looked a bit lost.
The U20s totally dominated upfront but backs so far not matching them.

Watching the U20 England game....desr lord this female commentator is painful...

Female? It's the Scottish bloke who appears to only have one eye and be talking rubbish that's doing my head in.

Ah I'm not talking about bias Sam...just the commentator in general..the terminology and description...God its awful.

"The extraction from the ruck there"

Think it's Rory Lawson (the bloke) not sure on woman but no problem for me.
Shame weather so filthy

Good referring he couldn't avoid that tackle.

Yeah the female commentator has been fine for me.

Geordie wrote:Good referring he couldn't avoid that tackle.

I think he jumped into the contact. He doesn't need to jump to regather that, he's jumped because he's trying to brace as he regathers.

If they learn some skills to go with their size they could be quite tasty. England have thrown away so many passes it amazes me that things like that are not autonomous with professional athletes.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Geordie wrote:Good referring he couldn't avoid that tackle.

I think he jumped into the contact. He doesn't need to jump to regather that, he's jumped because he's trying to brace as he regathers.

Jumping into a tackle used to be a penalty?

Ref looks good, I wish we could have him instead of the sh refs.

Ref has been pretty relaxed, he could have definitely got his card out but has tried to let the game settle instead. It's been a feisty game and he hasn't quite kept a lid on it. He's doing a decent job, appears to be consistent which is the most important thing.

Not sure how that isn't another yellow card, young Scots lad just slapped it into touch...

Not sure the eng 9 released after the tackle there.

Ref has been pretty lenient on the old slap downs for Scotland.

Good strong finish by Carnduff. He's some player the young Tiger. Very highly rated at Tigers. Came off the bench to play against Quins in the Prem last month even though Tigers had former Aussie Sam Carter on the bench as well, Carnduff got the nod and looked right at home. Whether he'll settle at lock or 6 we'll see. If he were to stay at 6 he could very much be the Liebenburg successor, they've got similar attributes.

English lads just keep going on their own and getting isolated, the support need to work harder to support, but the carrier needs to be aware of what is going on.

Decent Scottish try. Scottish 7 making Pollock look like a show pony, he needs to do some ruck clearing. We are starting to lose the breakdown.

I'd opt for a scrum here...

...And I would have been wrong.

Yeah they have work to do obviously individually...and there's lots of mistakes being made...bit some huge lads in this England side...hope a few of them make the step up...

The England hooker looks good.
The scrum half ...
And finally a few big wingers Coming through...

Don't know why England didn't go for scrum there as so dominant. Ok got try from lineout but that's never as certain to retain possession. Anyway minor gripe.

Yoda wrote:Decent Scottish try. Scottish 7 making Pollock look like a show pony, he needs to do some ruck clearing. We are starting to lose the breakdown.

He looks outstanding doesn't he. One to watch for the next few years in a senior shirt.

Scotland absolutely butchered that...

Geordie wrote:

Yoda wrote:Decent Scottish try. Scottish 7 making Pollock look like a show pony, he needs to do some ruck clearing. We are starting to lose the breakdown.

He looks outstanding doesn't he. One to watch for the next few years in a senior shirt.

Scottish 7 looks a real menace, very difficult to shift once he latches on at the breakdown.

By the way think female commentator is Clare Thomas if anyone interested.
I think she's ok. I also don't mind Sarah Orchard who is often on rugby union daily podcasts.

Aww that doesn't look good for the lad

How far did they go back for that?!

Drat - only just seen this is on BBC iPlayer