England - The Next Episode

First topic message reminder :

The next stage of development....progression or failure....who can tell.

mountain man wrote:Players often seemingly not picked because of what they cannot do as opposed to be picked for what they can do.
Hence get jack of all trades types who are decent at most things but rarely excell in one. Daly a good example I'd say.

Aus were the masters of utility players. Still good to have a specialist in their position, even better if they’re world class. Speaking of which, did 7.5 get himself some world class Mimosa from AWJ today?

dummy_half wrote:

Geordie wrote:

dummy_half wrote:

mountain man wrote:Aren't they contradicting themselves then? Asking who is best wing but then quotes his versatility. Industrious rather than spectacular? Damned with faint praise!

Absolutely. Daly is a good rugby player, but at international level he lacks a little bit in any of his possible positions: on the wing, lacks the outright pace and elusiveness of the best, at centre lacks a bit of power and defensive nous, and at fullback is not strong enough under the high ball. A bit like Chris Paterson for Scotland, has plenty of attributes of a good player, but no position that really fits his combination of strengths and hides his relative weaknesses.

It's a problem of the England back line set up though, and has been present for all of Borthwick's time and goes back well into EJs era - we lack either an individual with the X factor that can pull defenders out of their system, or a combination of players that really works well together (I recently saw some highlights of England v SA in 2002 - the inside backs combination of Dawson's sniping running, Wilkinson's tactical and technical skills, Greenwood's nous, handling and ability to support play and Tindall's power running did such a good job of covering all bases. OK, was helped by having one of the best packs of all time in front of them, but still - was a good enough team to make Phil Christophers look like a worldie on that day).

I'm not convinced that Tuilagi and Lawrence works in combination - too similar in style and attributes. We do though need one of them to help in getting the early phase go forward, along with a stronger ball carrier in the back row (preferably at 8). Attacking rugby is so much easier if you can get a few yards over the gain line in the early phases, and rpesently we lack players who can give us that reliably.

Bold 1 - Radwan or Marcus Smith for starters, hell id even say move freeman to 13...
Bold 2 - I completely agree, would prefer whoever at 12 and Lawrence at 13. Hell Ojomoh is in the squad so why not play the club combo. If Lawrence isnt fit move freeman to 13 so he sees more ball and bring Waboso on the wing.

Smith's had a few chances and so far has only really shone against lesser opposition, and has struggled to look any more creative than Ford or Farrell against top teams. Now, whether that's because of the step up in quality or because of underperformances around him is yet to be demonstrated.
As for Radwan, I'm increasingly frustrated with the England selection policy being to exclude players for what they don't do well in negating opponents rather than picking a couple who are there to make the opposition's life difficult. Start picking players and teams to win rather than to not lose... IF that means having a relatively light weight flyer on the wing, lets make it happen. Obviously was less of an issue with prime Jonny May on the wing, who gave us the pace and became solid defensively, but is definitely something missing from the team over the last couple of years or so.

Yes hes had some games but hes far better at controlling games now. He needs to be in there directing things when hes fit. he just has that ability to create something when nothing is on...and it was glaringly obvious it was missing v Wales...

I cannot understand why Borthwick has not given Fin Smith some time when Mitchell is still on the field, especially with Freeman and Dingwall on the field. If you want the backs to gel, having a 9,10,12, and 14 from the same club is the obvious way to go.

If I were Fin, I would be starting to think that I am just here for emergencies and to make sure I don't play in blue.

Difficult to make an impression sitting on the bench or getting a 10 minute cameo with a scrum half you are unfamiliar with and whose pass is 5m short of Mitchell's and slower.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I cannot understand why Borthwick has not given Fin Smith some time when Mitchell is still on the field, especially with Freeman and Dingwall on the field. If you want the backs to gel, having a 9,10,12, and 14 from the same club is the obvious way to go.

If I were Fin, I would be starting to think that I am just here for emergencies and to make sure I don't play in blue.

Difficult to make an impression sitting on the bench or getting a 10 minute cameo with a scrum half you are unfamiliar with and whose pass is 5m short of Mitchell's and slower.

The centres weren't great Vs Wales in attack and with the game tight I think Borthwick wanted Ford on the field as an experienced head. The 50/22 for instance was great game management. Were the English centres more dominant then I think Fin Smith would get more minutes.

Ford is an excellent player and his qualities really shone through in the 2nd half V Wales. But if we are ever going to develop a new creative and more attacking and younger team then surely Fin should have started against Italy and Wales. Ford could have come on to steady the ship if he was struggling. I am afraid that Borthwick is a conservative boring data obsessed dullard and that until he goes I can see our performances boring the pants of everyone. Ewels and Dombrandt retained over Pearson.....blimey! You have Itoje, Chessum, Coles and Martin all covering the 2nd row so why not take a punt on Pearson and not just keep him in the squad but put him on the bench? How else our we to find out what he is made of? I will refrain from totally smashing my head against the wall until Marcus and Lawrence are fully fit and then I will see what team is selected and how they play.....then I will probably lose it!

Perhaps Pearson is seen as a luxury? He's gone for mongrel. I would have Pearson at six and let him loose to see what he can do. But hey ho. It could be worse we could be debating this whilst we have been beaten by Italy and Wales. ‍�

In the Prem, Freeman looks good at either 13 or wing. seeing we are blessed with a few good wingers and very few good 13s, why not try him at 13, especially if Manu is back at 12, between them they could cause havoc. Either has the power to go through the tackle, Freeman has the ball skills to offload, kick or take out his man with a late pass as well as a magnificent ability to change direction as he receives or after he takes the pass. Manu is a battering ram, but not the greatest ball player. he may need a bit of help defensively, but thats what 7s are for.

Hiw does the A game selection work...is this a sign Pearson will be I'm the A game?

And just to add....the one thing I have noticed with Pearson is he is quilty of missing the odd critical tackle. I wonder if this is a noticeable issue?

I'm a huge Pearson fan, but he fell off drastically in that warmup against Wales after a promising start. I think conditioning is likely the issue. There's a world of difference between the Prem and international rugby in terms of fitness. That should improve with time to develop. Earl has admitted to having a similar issue when he first came into the setup.

I struggle to see how you fit CCS and Pearson into the same 23 at the moment without a 6-2 bench split to cover issues with conditioning. I don't think either are fit enough yet to be starters. Having watched a lot of both and Wiese most weeks, I'd say that Wiese is considerably fitter than either and he basically never plays 80 minutes for the Boks. It looks like they've gone with CCS as the big bloke off the bench who's being told to just hit stuff hard for the last quarter. Given CCS is the bigger ball carrier and that's something England have been lacking, I'd say that's a fair call between the two if fitting both in is a struggle.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Freeman has the ball skills to offload, kick or take out his man with a late pass as well as a magnificent ability to change direction as he receives or after he takes the pass.

Does Freeman have near the passing or kicking game to do much of that at international level though is the concern? At Prem level Slade and Daly still look a cut above when it comes to acting as a link man between their fly-half and the outside backs that need putting away. At international level they have been up and down in that regard, most want them dropped.

I think Freeman has earned a run in the side but he looks more like a Ravautaumada type winger who does everything well and is rapid, rather than being a Nayacalevu style 13 who is such a freak he can run over forwards. I think I'd prefer keeping Freeman on the wing where his basics are rock solid and his size can more often be a point of difference in one on ones. Rather than shift him infield, where I feel his passing game really isn't at an international 13s level and he'll be running at guys his size more often.

Geordie wrote:Hiw does the A game selection work...is this a sign Pearson will be I'm the A game?

The only reporting I've seen is that Borthwick will select the side. That was mentioned in some reports when Skivington, Vesty and Waldouck were announced. AFAIK the fixture hasn't been mentioned since then. Which was over a month ago. It's just over a week away.

There's been reports of it being a Portugal team or Portugal 'A'. There are varied reports about whether Portugal players based in France will be released. If it's a Portugal 'A' team then it's unclear if it would tie players. As Portugal 'A' would need to be their, "next senior national representative team", for it to tie players. Which to my knowledge, Portugal have never designated before.

Tickets are being sold for the game so presumably it's going ahead. There seems very little promotion of it though.

Don't know whether this been mentioned already but Lynagh in Italy squad.
Some been raving about him but I wouldn't say he was any better than many other wings available for England or as good as some.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/68299618

A squad has been announced and I am scratching my head at some of those:


Fin Baxter (Harlequins)
Jamie Blamire (Newcastle Falcons, 7 caps)
Tarek Haffar (Northampton Saints)
Sam Riley (Harlequins)
Seb Blake (Gloucester)
Josh Iosefa Scott (Exeter Chiefs)
James Harper (Sale Sharks)
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens, 11 caps)
Arthur Clark (Gloucester)
Ben Bamber (Sale Sharks)
Rusiate Tuima (Exeter Chiefs)
Tom Pearson (Northampton Saints, 1 cap)
Guy Pepper (Newcastle Falcons)
Alfie Barbeary (Bath)
Greg Fisilau (Exeter Chiefs)
Jack Clement (Gloucester)

Backs

Caolan Englefield (Gloucester)
Harry Randall (Bristol Bears, 2 caps)
Charlie Atkinson (Gloucester)
Jamie Shillcock (Leicester Tigers)
Oliver Sleightholme (Northampton Saints)
Oliver Hartley (Saracens)
Rekeiti Ma’asi-White (Sale Sharks)
Cadan Murley (Harlequins)
Ollie Hassell-Collins (Leicester Tigers, 2 caps)
Josh Hodge (Exeter Chiefs)
Sam Harris (Bath)

Sam Harris but no Josh Hodge or Josh Carpenter? If Josh Iosefa Scott is qualified, would he not be better with the main squad?

Caolan Englefield?

king_carlos wrote:I'm a huge Pearson fan, but he fell off drastically in that warmup against Wales after a promising start. I think conditioning is likely the issue. There's a world of difference between the Prem and international rugby in terms of fitness. That should improve with time to develop. Earl has admitted to having a similar issue when he first came into the setup.

I struggle to see how you fit CCS and Pearson into the same 23 at the moment without a 6-2 bench split to cover issues with conditioning. I don't think either are fit enough yet to be starters. Having watched a lot of both and Wiese most weeks, I'd say that Wiese is considerably fitter than either and he basically never plays 80 minutes for the Boks. It looks like they've gone with CCS as the big bloke off the bench who's being told to just hit stuff hard for the last quarter. Given CCS is the bigger ball carrier and that's something England have been lacking, I'd say that's a fair call between the two if fitting both in is a struggle.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Freeman has the ball skills to offload, kick or take out his man with a late pass as well as a magnificent ability to change direction as he receives or after he takes the pass.

Does Freeman have near the passing or kicking game to do much of that at international level though is the concern? At Prem level Slade and Daly still look a cut above when it comes to acting as a link man between their fly-half and the outside backs that need putting away. At international level they have been up and down in that regard, most want them dropped.

I think Freeman has earned a run in the side but he looks more like a Ravautaumada type winger who does everything well and is rapid, rather than being a Nayacalevu style 13 who is such a freak he can run over forwards. I think I'd prefer keeping Freeman on the wing where his basics are rock solid and his size can more often be a point of difference in one on ones. Rather than shift him infield, where I feel his passing game really isn't at an international 13s level and he'll be running at guys his size more often.

I saw a stat saying Freeman is top of the 6N stats for dominant tackles!

Glad to see likes of Sleightholme, Murley and especially Ma'asi-White getting a look in. Btw Cumbrian, Josh Hodge is there.

mountain man wrote:Glad to see likes of Sleightholme, Murley and especially Ma'asi-White getting a look in. Btw Cumbrian, Josh Hodge is there.

D'oh!

Potential team?

01. Fin Baxter
02. Sam Riley
03. Josh Iosefa Scott
04. Rusiate Tuima
05. Nick Isiekwe
06. Tom Pearson
07. Guy Pepper
08. Alfie Barbeary

09. Harry Randall
10. Charlie Atkinson/ Jamie Shilcock

11. Ollie Hassell-Collins
12. Oliver Hartley
13. Rekeiti Ma’asi-White
14. Cayden Murley
15. Josh Hodge

I'm looking forward to see how Fin Baxter goes at this level. He's looking ready to take over from Marler at club level, and I think he'd be the obvious candidate to do so at International level too. Though they might need to find someone else to give the press their pantomime villain. Baxter seems a pretty serious lad on the pitch, and is apparently pretty quiet off it.

Josh Iosefa Scott (Exeter Chiefs) dear lord no...

Interesting no Ehren Painter...

Think the main squad whos not involved v Scotland will be involved in this .

England A squad
Forwards

Fin Baxter (Harlequins)

Jamie Blamire (Newcastle Falcons, 7 caps)

Tarek Haffar (Northampton Saints)

Sam Riley (Harlequins)

Seb Blake (Gloucester)

Josh Iosefa Scott (Exeter Chiefs)

James Harper (Sale Sharks)

Nick Isiekwe (Saracens, 11 caps)

Arthur Clark (Gloucester)

Ben Bamber (Sale Sharks)

Rusiate Tuima (Exeter Chiefs)

Tom Pearson (Northampton Saints, 1 cap)

Guy Pepper (Newcastle Falcons)

Alfie Barbeary (Bath)

Greg Fisilau (Exeter Chiefs)

Jack Clement (Gloucester)

Backs

Caolan Englefield (Gloucester)

Harry Randall (Bristol Bears, 2 caps)

Charlie Atkinson (Gloucester)

Jamie Shillcock (Leicester Tigers)

Oliver Sleightholme (Northampton Saints)

Oliver Hartley (Saracens)

Rekeiti Ma’asi-White (Sale Sharks)

Cadan Murley (Harlequins)

Ollie Hassell-Collins (Leicester Tigers, 2 caps)

Josh Hodge (Exeter Chiefs)

Sam Harris (Bath)

Poorfour wrote:I'm looking forward to see how Fin Baxter goes at this level. He's looking ready to take over from Marler at club level, and I think he'd be the obvious candidate to do so at International level too. Though they might need to find someone else to give the press their pantomime villain. Baxter seems a pretty serious lad on the pitch, and is apparently pretty quiet off it.

Baxter and Brantingham look the best LH talents to me.

I'm not sure Obano will get to where it once looked like he could. Injuries seem to have taken their toll, sadly. His scrummaging is still very up and down, whilst his tackling isn't as dynamic as it once was.

Brantingham developing at Sarries will be interesting to watch.

king_carlos wrote:

Poorfour wrote:I'm looking forward to see how Fin Baxter goes at this level. He's looking ready to take over from Marler at club level, and I think he'd be the obvious candidate to do so at International level too. Though they might need to find someone else to give the press their pantomime villain. Baxter seems a pretty serious lad on the pitch, and is apparently pretty quiet off it.

Baxter and Brantingham look the best LH talents to me.

I'm not sure Obano will get to where it once looked like he could. Injuries seem to have taken their toll, sadly. His scrummaging is still very up and down, whilst his tackling isn't as dynamic as it once was.

Brantingham developing at Sarries will be interesting to watch.

I agree so why is Tarek Haffar in over brantingham.

And why is Josh Iosefa Scott in there over Painter? I dont get some of these selections..

And whats happened to Dan Kelly....

Stronger at LH than TH.

Strong in the back row and back three.

A significant fall off at halfback from the guys in the senior squad.

Talented but unproven at centre.

It feels indicative of the discussions we have around the main squad. At first glance there were names that I was confused by, but pondering a bit more on it, I can't think of many fit players that are obvious absentees.

1.Baxter 2.Blamire 3.Iosefa-Scott 4.Tuima 5.Isiekwe 6.Pepper 7.Pearson 8.Barbeary
9.Randall 10.Shillcock 11.OHC 12.Hartley 13.Ma'asi-White 14.Murley 15.Hodge

16.Riley 17.Haffar 18.Harper 19.Bamber 20.Fisilau 21.Englefield 22.Atkinson 23.Sleightholme

That would seem the obvious selection from that squad. I'd say it looks pretty decent. Certainly strong in the pack and back three for an 'A' game.

If picking a side to get a better indication of players the senior team needs, then I might be tempted to start Fisilau, bench Clement and have Pepper miss out. I really rate Pepper but the senior team needs ball carriers coming through across the pack.

Geordie wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

Poorfour wrote:I'm looking forward to see how Fin Baxter goes at this level. He's looking ready to take over from Marler at club level, and I think he'd be the obvious candidate to do so at International level too. Though they might need to find someone else to give the press their pantomime villain. Baxter seems a pretty serious lad on the pitch, and is apparently pretty quiet off it.

Baxter and Brantingham look the best LH talents to me.

I'm not sure Obano will get to where it once looked like he could. Injuries seem to have taken their toll, sadly. His scrummaging is still very up and down, whilst his tackling isn't as dynamic as it once was.

Brantingham developing at Sarries will be interesting to watch.

I agree so why is Tarek Haffar in over brantingham.

And why is Josh Iosefa Scott in there over Painter? I dont get some of these selections..

And whats happened to Dan Kelly....

Painter missed R12 with Chiefs, might be injured.

We've realistically no idea who's fit and available due to the break in the Prem though. It's basically a midseason preseason going on just now. I know several Tigers players who are rumoured to be taking prolonged breaks currently for minor surgery that's been pushed back. There are some who have been given extra leave to simply spend more time with young family than they often get to at this time of year.

Kelly has had a dismal season compared to his best. Genuinely awful week after week at the start. He's seen a slight improvement since shifting to 13 due to Kata significantly outperforming him at 12. He's nowhere close to the performances that got him noticed though. I can't argue with him missing out.

And yet again no Radwan....

Geordie wrote:And yet again no Radwan....

At least in the A side, I agree. If there are doubts about him with England, this is the
perfect place and time to know one way or another.

Its laughable DOC.

England crying out for X-factor players and they dont even look at Radwan in the A game!

I shouldn't be overly surprised that there's no Mercer after his comments but I am quite sad for him to going from being voted the best player in France to ignored by Borthwick.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I shouldn't be overly surprised that there's no Mercer after his comments but I am quite sad for him to going from being voted the best player in France to ignored by Borthwick.

Conor O'Shea made a clarifying comment on the selection that the A squad is very much a development squad with a few older heads to provide experience, but that there are a number of players who would get the call up to the senior squad ahead of the A players. The way it was reported was as if it was in response to a question about Mercer, so the assumption is that he is one of them.

No surprise about Mercer or Radwan to be honest.
Mercer because he seemed to burn his bridges more than from a rugby standpoint.

Poorfour wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I shouldn't be overly surprised that there's no Mercer after his comments but I am quite sad for him to going from being voted the best player in France to ignored by Borthwick.

Conor O'Shea made a clarifying comment on the selection that the A squad is very much a development squad with a few older heads to provide experience, but that there are a number of players who would get the call up to the senior squad ahead of the A players. The way it was reported was as if it was in response to a question about Mercer, so the assumption is that he is one of them.

Glad Joesepha Scott etc is included then

We do have a habit of wasting pure talent, and not just in rugby. Christian Wade, Danny Cipriani, Adam radwan etc...

Christian Wade is my niggle, such a waste and could have scored bucket loads of tries for England. He wasn't as bad a defender as people made out and despite what was said he could defend the high ball. I've seen at first hand him run rings around seasoned internationals and made them look silly. Radwan is a quality player and surely an opposition winger would rather defend against someone slower and less agile than someone who could beat them in a phone box?

England would never pick the likes of Kolbe,Graham Hogg etc.

I disagree on Wade. He had a weakness in positioning that he could cover at club level with sheer speed but that would be exposed at international level, and critically he never showed much sign of working on it.

The contrast with Gabriel Ibitoye is interesting. At Quins, he was a lot like Wade - capable of outrageous scores, but with too many bad habits in defence. Watching him at Bristol, Pat Lam has done a great job of getting him to fix that, and he's become a much more rounded and better player. I'd not be surprised to see him get a shot.

Coachability is a huge thing in selection, and even more so as you get to international level and players have less time to adapt to the system. Wade and Cipriani had aspects of their game where they were resistant to coaching (one reason why I bristle at comparisons between Smith and Cipriani - there are aspects of Smith's game that you have to build around or select a different player, but he's far more willing to adapt to a systerm than Cips at the same age); a lot of Russell and Toonie's ups and downs have been down to the same thing.

Poorfour wrote:I disagree on Wade. He had a weakness in positioning that he could cover at club level with sheer speed but that would be exposed at international level, and critically he never showed much sign of working on it.

The contrast with Gabriel Ibitoye is interesting. At Quins, he was a lot like Wade - capable of outrageous scores, but with too many bad habits in defence. Watching him at Bristol, Pat Lam has done a great job of getting him to fix that, and he's become a much more rounded and better player. I'd not be surprised to see him get a shot.

Coachability is a huge thing in selection, and even more so as you get to international level and players have less time to adapt to the system. Wade and Cipriani had aspects of their game where they were resistant to coaching (one reason why I bristle at comparisons between Smith and Cipriani - there are aspects of Smith's game that you have to build around or select a different player, but he's far more willing to adapt to a systerm than Cips at the same age); a lot of Russell and Toonie's ups and downs have been down to the same thing.

Good post. It's complete w**k that it's an England centric thing.

Kolbe doesn't have a weak all round game. His kicking is good enough that he's played 10 at club level and plenty at fullback. His high ball work is solid and his positioning is fantastic. He's also a jackal threat. Any one that thinks he's weak without the ball because he's small must watch with their eyes closed.

Radwan has zero kicking game. He's also had zero kicking game since breaking into senior rugby. That lack of development is a justified thing to be concerned by. I was a massive fan of Radwan early on but he's the same player 5 years later. To make it in international rugby with no kicking game you need to be Duhan or Koroibete.

Balacoune is a good example. He's lightning with the ball and a brilliant defender. He's genuinely one of the best tacklers playing wing in the game at the moment. He smashes people and makes very good decisions about when to rush or drift. His high ball work is decent and he's very good on kick chase due to his height and pace. His kicking game is poor though. Hence he isn't even in the Ireland squad, let alone the team.

So we go with Elliot Daly.

Daly is experienced, a 2-time Lions test player, and is now a senior member of the squad. He's also played at both wings, full back and centre for England (as well as a cameo in the back row against Australia way back in 2016). Jones loved him. This has also carried over to the Borthwick era. I always thought that he had the intelligence and skill to play 15 best, until we realised quite quickly that his positioning was poor and his one-on-one tackling was similar to Ashton's "revolving door" efforts.

He strikes me as being quite an intelligent player and is quick to adjust to new systems, as well as having the necessary previous familiarity with International rugby. He's very good at kick chase. This means that he ticks an awful lot of Borthwick's strategy boxes. Steve obviously has left a blank space next to the sections marked "out and out pace" and "finishing".

Daly will never be exciting like the game-changing wings we strive for. However, because of the above box-ticking, I reckon he's going to stay in Borthwick's dull style of side until he's injured. Which is a pity, because Feyi-Waboso is a game-changer. Murley has out and out pace. Wade could have been great. But we're unlikely to know.

Is England picking backs for their kicking game?  
From the Wales match every back in the starting XV has a decent kicking game, though their particular kicking skills vary.
Mitchell, Ford, Daly, Dingwall, Slade, Freeman, and Steward all can kick well for their positions.  Maybe England can afford at least one back with other strengths.  

Stuart Barnes in today's Times argued against playing Manu due to age, injury concerns, and playing style.  I agree Ollie Lawrence, if healthy, needs a good run of games, and needs the ball in his hands a lot too.  

Stuart Barnes in The Times wrote:Selecting Tuilagi at No 12 is more than a journey into England’s recent past. It is a trip into another era. It would symbolise a management intent on looking backwards, rather than into the future. Right now, Ollie Lawrence is England’s first-choice centre and should be picked in the position where he most thrives: outside centre.
The possibility of a Tuilagi-Lawrence partnership is mouth-watering if you are sucked into the mythology of 2012 rather than the reality of recent years. Fraser Dingwall may not have done a great deal in his first two games, but he did quite a few unseen acts extremely well. The definition of an unseen act is when the TV commentary crew miss it. The Northampton Saint hasn’t done anything like enough to make the position his, but he’s not been bad enough to be dropped.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/manu-tuilagi-is-a-one-dimensional-relic-england-must-move-on-fdxsdx25x

doctor_grey wrote:Is England picking backs for their kicking game?  
From the Wales match every back in the starting XV has a decent kicking game, though their particular kicking skills vary.
Mitchell, Ford, Daly, Dingwall, Slade, Freeman, and Steward all can kick well for their positions.  Maybe England can afford at least one back with other strengths.  

Stuart Barnes in today's Times argued against playing Manu due to age, injury concerns, and playing style.  I agree Ollie Lawrence, if healthy, needs a good run of games, and needs the ball in his hands a lot too.  

Stuart Barnes in The Times wrote:Selecting Tuilagi at No 12 is more than a journey into England’s recent past. It is a trip into another era. It would symbolise a management intent on looking backwards, rather than into the future. Right now, Ollie Lawrence is England’s first-choice centre and should be picked in the position where he most thrives: outside centre.
The possibility of a Tuilagi-Lawrence partnership is mouth-watering if you are sucked into the mythology of 2012 rather than the reality of recent years. Fraser Dingwall may not have done a great deal in his first two games, but he did quite a few unseen acts extremely well. The definition of an unseen act is when the TV commentary crew miss it. The Northampton Saint hasn’t done anything like enough to make the position his, but he’s not been bad enough to be dropped.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/manu-tuilagi-is-a-one-dimensional-relic-england-must-move-on-fdxsdx25x

Hi Doc
Expect to see Beelzebub coming to see you with frostbitten feet - I actually agree with Stuart Barnes about something, Hell must have frozen over...

We need a centre that can take the ball into contact in early phases, but also one who can release his wingers and run support lines. Manu of 10 years ago was that player, but now his limitations outweigh his (diminished) strengths. A bit similar to Billy V in the World Cup: if his strengths are neutralised, then he's useless tot he team.

dummy_half wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Is England picking backs for their kicking game?  
From the Wales match every back in the starting XV has a decent kicking game, though their particular kicking skills vary.
Mitchell, Ford, Daly, Dingwall, Slade, Freeman, and Steward all can kick well for their positions.  Maybe England can afford at least one back with other strengths.  

Stuart Barnes in today's Times argued against playing Manu due to age, injury concerns, and playing style.  I agree Ollie Lawrence, if healthy, needs a good run of games, and needs the ball in his hands a lot too.  

Stuart Barnes in The Times wrote:Selecting Tuilagi at No 12 is more than a journey into England’s recent past. It is a trip into another era. It would symbolise a management intent on looking backwards, rather than into the future. Right now, Ollie Lawrence is England’s first-choice centre and should be picked in the position where he most thrives: outside centre.
The possibility of a Tuilagi-Lawrence partnership is mouth-watering if you are sucked into the mythology of 2012 rather than the reality of recent years. Fraser Dingwall may not have done a great deal in his first two games, but he did quite a few unseen acts extremely well. The definition of an unseen act is when the TV commentary crew miss it. The Northampton Saint hasn’t done anything like enough to make the position his, but he’s not been bad enough to be dropped.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/manu-tuilagi-is-a-one-dimensional-relic-england-must-move-on-fdxsdx25x

Hi Doc
Expect to see Beelzebub coming to see you with frostbitten feet - I actually agree with Stuart Barnes about something, Hell must have frozen over...

We need a centre that can take the ball into contact in early phases, but also one who can release his wingers and run support lines. Manu of 10 years ago was that player, but now his limitations outweigh his (diminished) strengths. A bit similar to Billy V in the World Cup: if his strengths are neutralised, then he's useless tot he team.

How did you know my mother-in-law was coming up to stay with us this weekend??????? For real.

I'm just as surprised as you! He must be raising his game by stealth viewing 606v2...

king_carlos wrote:

Poorfour wrote:I disagree on Wade. He had a weakness in positioning that he could cover at club level with sheer speed but that would be exposed at international level, and critically he never showed much sign of working on it.

The contrast with Gabriel Ibitoye is interesting. At Quins, he was a lot like Wade - capable of outrageous scores, but with too many bad habits in defence. Watching him at Bristol, Pat Lam has done a great job of getting him to fix that, and he's become a much more rounded and better player. I'd not be surprised to see him get a shot.

Coachability is a huge thing in selection, and even more so as you get to international level and players have less time to adapt to the system. Wade and Cipriani had aspects of their game where they were resistant to coaching (one reason why I bristle at comparisons between Smith and Cipriani - there are aspects of Smith's game that you have to build around or select a different player, but he's far more willing to adapt to a systerm than Cips at the same age); a lot of Russell and Toonie's ups and downs have been down to the same thing.

Good post. It's complete w**k that it's an England centric thing.

Kolbe doesn't have a weak all round game. His kicking is good enough that he's played 10 at club level and plenty at fullback. His high ball work is solid and his positioning is fantastic. He's also a jackal threat. Any one that thinks he's weak without the ball because he's small must watch with their eyes closed.

Radwan has zero kicking game. He's also had zero kicking game since breaking into senior rugby. That lack of development is a justified thing to be concerned by. I was a massive fan of Radwan early on but he's the same player 5 years later. To make it in international rugby with no kicking game you need to be Duhan or Koroibete.

Balacoune is a good example. He's lightning with the ball and a brilliant defender. He's genuinely one of the best tacklers playing wing in the game at the moment. He smashes people and makes very good decisions about when to rush or drift. His high ball work is decent and he's very good on kick chase due to his height and pace. His kicking game is poor though. Hence he isn't even in the Ireland squad, let alone the team.

He does actually...just to correct you, he just sees so little ball at the falcons he wants the ball in his hands.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So we go with Elliot Daly.

Who played pretty well against Wales.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:So we go with Elliot Daly.

Who played pretty well against Wales.

I thought good and bad. The worst was his thinking he could finish that try. I know he was criticised for not being able to get over in the corner. I think that's a misread of the situation: Sometimes defenders simply have the better angle and support on its way. He should be criticised for trying. And then getting bundled into touch. Should have curled infield to allow the support to come up and keep the possible try alive. And I think he was up and down in the Italy game as well.

I think if Daly is the answer we have thw wrong question.

Daly is a very good player and it's easy to see why he is picked. However, there are better specialist wings available and if Borthwick really wants to progress the team he needs to pick best players in each position.
Otherwise team progress going to be slow. Likewise still persisting with Manu, again it's lack of options in centres especially inside centre.
This though has been an ongoing problem for literally 10 years.

Inside centre has only been a problem for that long when fans bizarrely ignore Farrell's success there. England won 3 Six Nations titles with Faz at 12. That's the same number as Henshaw has been involved in from a very similar career span. His performances and success in the position were fantastic.

As for the better specialist wing part. There are better specialist wingers if we ignore the importance of wingers being rounded, especially having a kicking game, in international rugby. Fans have the luxury to do that. Coaches, not so much. Hence why pretty much all international coaches avoid wingers without a kicking game. Unless they are complete freaks such as Duhan and Koroibete. Who are just about the only wingers with long term international successful from recent years with really poor kicking games. Caleb Clarke has picked up quite a few ABs caps but he's also been persistently dropped for that reason. Tuisova did similar with Fiji, though also moved to 12 and sadly doesn't have many caps due to how the game works. If you really want to split hairs, then Radrada was shifted the other way to the wing in the recent RWC. Going further back, Vakatawa started on the wing for France when they were a much poorer side. When they got good, he was shifted to 13 due to these same weaknesses.

Either pretty much all international coaches are wrong in their thinking, with the evidence from the types of players succeeding and failing in international rugby as wingers also being wrong, or, having a kicking game is actually quite important for the position.

Well think point is how are England going to progress without change. For last 3-4 years, probably since 2019 so maybe 4-5 years England have either stagnated or gone backwards.
So if it's not the players being picked, it's the tactics.

Or it's maybe what some of us think it's a combination. If you seriously think inside centre is not and has not been a problem then I'll have some of what you've been drinking.

Really interesting article in The Times today by Courtney Lawes, (I read on paper not online so no link) about direction rugby is going and how it should be celebrated for the physicality etc. He is also critical on tv pundits placing too much emphasis on scrums and moaning about them. Good analysis of last play in Wales England match and last line out which was barely mentioned in most reports.
A sensible and well thought out article.

mountain man wrote:Really interesting article in The Times today by Courtney Lawes, (I read on paper not online so no link) about direction rugby is going and how it should be celebrated for the physicality etc. He is also critical on tv pundits placing too much emphasis on scrums and moaning about them. Good analysis of last play in Wales England match and last line out which was barely mentioned in most reports.
A sensible and well thought out article.

Agree, this is excellent. Courtney hits the points extremely well. He covers a lot of ground, and is an excellent read.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/courtney-lawes-save-rugby-union-legal-cases-g0n0l78m9

Well Mercer is having a nice start to the prem Cup. And Painter is having a tough time in the scrum.