England's Winter of Cricket 2023/24

First topic message reminder :

I haven't seen a ball from today. Not sure I want to seeing the scorecard.

I woke up early for work, checked the score, saw the collapse, felt sad. Then didn't look again until after close.

It all looked so promising for a moment.

Duty281 wrote:" If the batter believes that is the best approach for him, the captain and coach back him to play that way"...I didn't realise you had such inside knowledge either!

Based on what all the players have been saying publicly. They could be lying.

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:" If the batter believes that is the best approach for him, the captain and coach back him to play that way"...I didn't realise you had such inside knowledge either!

Based on what all the players have been saying publicly. They could be lying.

Of course they could be! Media spin and PR training is the norm.

I would imagine Root has the gravitas to bat in the manner he wants as England's only world class bat. (Also his average has improved since Stokes replaced him as captain).

GSC wrote:I would imagine Root has the gravitas to bat in the manner he wants as England's only world class bat. (Also his average has improved since Stokes replaced him as captain).

Unsurprising that his average has improved given the much improved batting wickets England have played on at home, combined with the terrible Dukes balls over the last two seasons, as well as the friendly wickets in NZ and Pakistan.

But here he's had a very disappointing series.

Think as KPF put, Bazball has to be viewed in terms of resource maximization. I don't think anyone, including himself, could have imagined Oliver Pope playing that innings of his life in these conditions to win a test match for England had he been playing with the old approach. He's a limited batter at top level, who has been able to maximize his output because of the new approach. Likewise Zak Crawley would have been half the batter that he currently is, and Ben Duckett would never have made a test comeback. Where England have got the balance, has been in terms of not knowing when to stop and trying to extend the approach into a one-size fit all thing. Stokes himself was batting like an absolute loony in the initial tests, and Joe Root ended up overdoing the stuff. Stokes has been a lot more measured of late, particularly since the Ashes series and that has worked better for him. Think Root will also be a bit mmeasured after this turnaround innings here.
Hartley is a limited bowler alright. He doesn't spin the ball like a Swann or yes, Moeen, and doesn't have the accuracy and abilities of a Panesar. But I don't think too many captains, would have backed him the way Stokes did after he was mauled by Jaiswal... Could so easily have ended up like a Simon Kerrigan or Scott Borthwick or many other England Spinners before him. Not saying Hartley is the next great English spinner, but even if he doesn't play a test match from here on, he has that performance to be remembered by, and that is largely down to the new approach that Stokes and McCullum have brought in.
So the approach may not have improved England as a team in terms of overall results, but it has given their available set of players the best opportunity to produce their best. That may not be enough to consistently challenge top sides though...

Looking ahead to the next game, think Patidar needs a reset and needs to go back to domestic cricket. As Madhya Pradesh have qualified for Ranji semis, he should just focus on that rather than going through what seems to be a rather torturous situation as suggested by his demeanour and body language. If KL Rahul is fit, he should be back, or it has to be a debut for Devdutt Padikkal. Kohli is not officially ruled out from the 5th test is he? Don't think he's going to be back, and in any case with the series won, it has to be an opportunity for the youngsters. So would rather prefer Padikkal than KL even. As for Jas Bumrah, he was keen to play all 5 tests and had to be talked out of it by the management. I am sure he would want to come back as he'd have a 3 week off by then. But with the series in the bag and young Akash Deep making a claim to be that 4th seamer in the group behind Bumrah, Shami and Siraj, would want to have another look at him in possibly more friendly conditions in Dharamshala. And if Jas really insists, hopefully Akash can be retained for Siraj who hasn't been at his best in the series. Yes he had that previous turnaround performance, but he was only a bit quicker than Robinson who bowled at Gangulyesk pace in the test...

msp83 wrote:Looking ahead to the next game, think Patidar needs a reset and needs to go back to domestic cricket. As Madhya Pradesh have qualified for Ranji semis, he should just focus on that rather than going through what seems to be a rather torturous situation as suggested by his demeanour and body language. If KL Rahul is fit, he should be back, or it has to be a debut for Devdutt Padikkal. Kohli is not officially ruled out from the 5th test is he? Don't think he's going to be back, and in any case with the series won, it has to be an opportunity for the youngsters. So would rather prefer Padikkal than KL even. As for Jas Bumrah, he was keen to play all 5 tests and had to be talked out of it by the management. I am sure he would want to come back as he'd have a 3 week off by then. But with the series in the bag and young Akash Deep making a claim to be that 4th seamer in the group behind Bumrah, Shami and Siraj, would want to have another look at him in possibly more friendly conditions in Dharamshala. And if Jas really insists, hopefully Akash can be retained for Siraj who hasn't been at his best in the series. Yes he had that previous turnaround performance, but he was only a bit quicker than Robinson who bowled at Gangulyesk pace in the test...

First of all the pitch will be more of the same like in last 2 tests and unlike the traditional Dharmshala seam friendly, but it's cool and pitch could be damp under the covers first morning.
So there is a consolation reward of an hour and half of seam movement & also assistance for spin for the team losing the toss....and presumably being asked to bowl first
With series in bag no way will BCCI play Bumrah........he's gotta be kept fit & preserved for IPL & then world cup.
The team will remain the same with the exception of Paddikal for Patidar....if KL is not fit.
And Sai Sudarshan may be the stand by.

I would like to see Jadeja go back to 6 and KL at 4 , sarfaraz 5 .
If Paddikal plays, he goes to 5 and Sarfaraz to 4.

I would rest Ashwin whose knee is acting up and looks jaded.....and bring Washington for him....butt that ain't gonna happen as Gavasakr is already discussing how to celebrate Ashwin's 100th test

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:No I mean you trot out the 1 in 17 test losses for Root/Silverwood line with the caveat of we never do well in the West Indies line included…yet simultaneously completely overlook the 3-0 test away series win in Pakistan (somewhere England had won literally one test match in history beforehand - that’s not doing well somewhere) and also our first test victory in New Zealand in our last four tours over there (since 2008), swatted away as achievements and described as beating “middling fodder”

The 3-0 victory in Pakistan shouldn't be brushed away as it sometimes is. It was remarkable to force 3 wins on those pitches. An Australian side with broadly better players than that England side could only just nab 1 win in the same circumstances.

I think this series has been more competitive than 2021 despite currently having the same score line as well. In 2021 the losses came by 300-odd runs (hardly much difference to the 400-odd run win in reality), 10 wickets and an innings. Whereas I think England had genuine chances in T2 and were ahead of the game here in T4 heading into D3.

I also think the 2023 Ashes saw England closer to potentially winning than 2019. They lost those two Tests comprehensively in 2019, won Headingley through a miracle, then got a good win in T5. In 2023 there were two tight Oz wins, two tight England wins, then Old Trafford where the Aussies were getting an absolute fisting and were saved by the rain.

I also think that if folk are going to mention that England haven't won a Test series since 2022, then it's also reasonable to point out that this is their first series loss under Stokes and McCullum too. Obviously the aim is to win series, not draw them. A drawn series is better than a loss though!

I've defended the Silverwood setup before. I do think there were mitigating circumstances around how much overseas cricket England played during covid. At the end of the day, long Test tours with as strict bubbles as England had in India and Australia were things that the BCCI and CA avoided for their teams. The Ashes in particular was a series that solely happened to fulfil CA's broadcast deal. The ECB didn't want to anger one of the other cartel leaders from their Big Three. The administrators threw that series to the wolves. Root bore the brunt of that down under. The poor guy looked destroyed. Silverwood was the scapegoat longer term. That doesn't mean England had the players to compete in a better organised Ashes down under. It should be considered just how poorly that tour was arranged though.

All that said, all mitigating circumstances aside, the Silverwood and Root regime had broken down, it was losing a lot of Tests, they had become miserable to watch in the process. That Windies tour was the first England Test series that I didn't really bother following since becoming a cricket obsessive. I just wasn't interested. Whilst performances in Root's captaincy were better pre-covid, they were dismal during it. That's still true, mitigating circumstances or not.

Since McCullum and Stokes took over, I've been following every game again. It's largely been very enjoyable to follow even with losses such as T2 in NZ. The batters have largely performed far better with these tactics - lest we forget 'extras' being England's second highest scorer in a calendar year. Our spinners have also seen a big shift in success across the board. There's been plenty to like.

It does feel like this setup are heading into the 'second stage' of their leadership so to speak. The next 4 series aren't as tough on paper. Then they have India coming to England and the Ashes down under in 2025. I would presume that they will use those 4 series to build towards that. Will Bairstow be moved on? Is Foakes the keeper longer term? What of the older seamers? What of the spinners? Leach vs Bashir seems the battle in outright bowling stakes. Rehan and Hartley have more rounded games though. Lots to ponder.

This argument will run and run

I think you are outnumbered , Duty : but that of course doesn't make you wrong . So I will advance another reply...

You say - reasonably enough - that this England side has not (yet) achieved a superior result against either Australia or India to their immediate predecessors. Mathematically , that is true. But I'd suggest that most observers would think they've actually looked closer to their opponents in most games. Free to disagree , of course. You also seek to somehow enhance that point by referring to missing players on the other side  (Lyon's injury , for instance) ; but ignoring - for comparisons - things like Smith's absence from the Third Test in 2019... Now that is very selective.
Personally , I tend to disregard injury losses etc when comparing results (if that is all we want to do) It is 11 v 11 : only the result counts if that is the currency you want to use.

By the same token , it is a stretch to invalidate the 3-0 over NZ , against a 0-1 previously , on the grounds that this was a "different , inferior , NZ." Apart from Ross Taylor they had virtually the same players !
And you use the same argument to dismiss the Pakistan achievement as down to weak opposition. You have even got another shot up in advance by listing the upcoming fixtures as against mediocre opponents so that any good results will be meaningless !

Are we to think that the only results that count are in Australia or NZ series ? Obviously these are the big tests at present ; and I won't deny this team has not yet managed to crack either - though as stated above , I think they're getting closer. But to disregard all other series seems to me unfair.

I have already said I think the team has to get better. One of the things which impresses me most about the current management is that they have been able to get the results they have with a side not substantially different from the one that was getting hammered all over for the previous couple of years. Considering they have just one batsman who has played a serious number of Tests and kept an average over forty (time will tell whether   Brook and Duckett can maintain their own fine start and re-start figures - though I'm hopeful , particularly of the former) ; no experienced spinner for many of their matches ; and a fast bowling group that has itself been plagued by injury ins and outs and has relied a lot on a 41yo and one slightly younger who has now retired : I reckon they have punched above their weight.

Now it may be that we see a drift backwards after this first series defeat ; and eventually McCullum's reign is seen as "new manager bounce". Or more hopefully they do manage to refine their methods , cover their weaknesses - and go on to more significant success. I have never said they are the finished product : but I think they have made gains ; and given us reason to hope the latter scenario is more likely.

I believe you when you say you want England to win. But I do also feel that because you took a rather negative view of the new regime from the start and consistently predicted failures , you have tended to underrate any successes and seized on any reverses as a means to prove your original assessment correct.

I think we should probably all watch and wait to see where they go from here. And I am reasonably sure watching them has brought a lot more entertainment and - yes , joy - to England supporters than anything but the occasional instance for the preceding few years.

All we need now is a new Wee Kiera debate!

JuliusHMarx wrote:All we need now is a new Wee Kiera debate!

We all know that Michael Vaughan's reputation was built on downing the Aussies captained by David Nalbandian

There is still one more test to go of this series and the series is still finely balanced with all to play for on tosses:

First test: England win toss.  1-0.
Second test: India win toss.  1-1
Third test: India win toss. 1-2
Fourth test: England win toss. 2-2
Fifth test: To be determined (7th March)

alfie wrote:This argument will run and run

I think you are outnumbered , Duty : but that of course doesn't make you wrong . So I will advance another reply...

You say - reasonably enough - that this England side has not (yet) achieved a superior result against either Australia or India to their immediate predecessors. Mathematically , that is true. But I'd suggest that most observers would think they've actually looked closer to their opponents in most games. Free to disagree , of course. You also seek to somehow enhance that point by referring to missing players on the other side  (Lyon's injury , for instance) ; but ignoring - for comparisons - things like Smith's absence from the Third Test in 2019... Now that is very selective.
Personally , I tend to disregard injury losses etc when comparing results (if that is all we want to do) It is 11 v 11 : only the result counts if that is the currency you want to use.

By the same token , it is a stretch to invalidate the 3-0 over NZ , against a 0-1 previously , on the grounds that this was a "different , inferior , NZ." Apart from Ross Taylor they had virtually the same players !
And you use the same argument to dismiss the Pakistan achievement as down to weak opposition. You have even got another shot up in advance by listing the upcoming fixtures as against mediocre opponents so that any good results will be meaningless !

Are we to think that the only results that count are in Australia or NZ series ? Obviously these are the big tests at present ; and I won't deny this team has not yet managed to crack either - though as stated above , I think they're getting closer. But to disregard all other series seems to me unfair.

I have already said I think the team has to get better. One of the things which impresses me most about the current management is that they have been able to get the results they have with a side not substantially different from the one that was getting hammered all over for the previous couple of years. Considering they have just one batsman who has played a serious number of Tests and kept an average over forty (time will tell whether   Brook and Duckett can maintain their own fine start and re-start figures - though I'm hopeful , particularly of the former) ; no experienced spinner for many of their matches ; and a fast bowling group that has itself been plagued by injury ins and outs and has relied a lot on a 41yo and one slightly younger who has now retired : I reckon they have punched above their weight.

Now it may be that we see a drift backwards after this first series defeat ; and eventually McCullum's reign is seen as "new manager bounce".  Or more hopefully they do manage to refine their methods , cover their weaknesses - and go on to more significant success.  I have never said they are the finished product : but I think they have made gains ; and given us reason to hope the latter scenario is more likely.

I believe you when you say you want England to win. But I do also feel that because you took a rather negative view of the new regime from the start and consistently predicted failures , you have tended to underrate any successes and seized on any reverses as a means to prove your original assessment correct.

I think we should probably all watch and wait to see where they go from here. And I am reasonably sure watching them has brought a lot more entertainment and - yes , joy - to England supporters than anything but the occasional instance for the preceding few years.

A comparison of the series would show:

Test 1 2019 - England beaten after a great Aussie comeback; Test 2 - England denied victory by the rain; Test 3 - Headingley Miracle (although the bowlers did well throughout; often forgotten Australia were bowled out for 179 in the first innings); Test 4 - Comfortable Aussie win; Test 5 - Comfortable English win

Test 1 2023 - Close Aussie win in a very see-saw test; Test 2 - Comfortable Aussie win (Stokes made the margin respectable, but Australia always controlled this one); Test 3 - Narrow English win in another see-saw test; Test 4 - English denied victory by the rain; Test 5 - Narrow English win in yet another see-saw test

Lot of talk about how 2023 could have been 3-2 England if it weren't for the rain, but many games were close. It could have just as easily been 4-1 Australia (as was looking likely, until Lyon's injury).

You brought up Smith's injury, that's why I said it was arguable about the respective strengths of Australia's team. One thing to remember from 2019, however, is Smith's replacement (Labuschagne) did superbly in the third test, scoring 154 runs, so Smith's loss wasn't keenly felt, and of course Labuschagne has since been retained as a player. It could be argued that Smith's injury actually boosted Australia in the long-term, because it may have been a little while before Labuschagne was given another chance.

Lyon's injury in 2023, however, was far more impactful, and I do think Australia would have won either/or tests three and five (both very narrow wins) if Lyon were present. We'll never know, however!

At the end of the day, though, Smith missed one test and was replaced by a brilliant player. Lyon missed three and was replaced by Todd Murphy. No comparison!

As for India:

Test 1 2021 - England thrashing, one of their greatest ever away wins; Test 2 - India thrashing; Test 3 - Comfortable Indian win, but the first innings was tight; Test 4 - India thrashing

Test 1 2024 - A miracle up there with Headingley 2019; Test 2 - Comfortable India win; Test 3 - Record breaking India thrashing; Test 4 - Solid Indian win, after England binned a promising position

I think it's un-contestable that India are weaker now than three years ago due to their various absences. I don't like to disregard injury absences, because it's telling of the strength of the team. I really think it would be 0-4 if India could have called upon Shami and Pant, rather than Bharat/Siraj for the first test.

As to the next point, you're using the phrase 'weak opposition'. I'm not using that. They were mid-tier opposition. Mid.

The thing with NZ was they suffered two in-game injuries in successive tests to key bowlers. That torpedoed them. I'm still of the view, as unpopular as it may be, that if De Grandhomme hadn't broken down with injury in the first test, thereby placing a greater workload on the main trio, that England would have fallen short in the first test. And, in the second test,  the same thing but with Jamieson breaking down.

Pakistan were very, very mid. Perhaps worse than mid, who can say? But the record shows they were the third worst team in the WTC that cycle and didn't win a single one of their eight home tests, all against non-subcontinental opposition. Do you want me to pretend they were brilliant? That Wasim, Waqar and Mushtag were bowling, while Inzamam, Younis Khan and Yousuf were batting for days? Because they really, really weren't. And while I'm not disparaging England's 3-0, I don't view it as any more or less impressive than England's six wins in a row in the subcontinent under the supposedly inferior Root/Silverwood duo. Sri Lanka are of roughly equal strength, so maybe Root's achievement was better. Perhaps England can level it up this winter with three more wins?

I'm afraid to say that all of England's next 13 or so tests are, indeed, against mediocre opposition or worse - 3 v WI, 3 v SL, 3 v Pak, 3 v NZ, 1 v Zim. I wish it weren't so, but there it is. I wish the West Indies were the force of old, but it isn't so. We can't seriously pretend any of these teams are great, can we? It won't be that England's results will be meaningless, or won't count, but in order to register improvement on the old regime, which many seem to think has happened, England have to step up and beat the top table (currently Australia/India). Root/Silverwood regularly won series against those beneath the top tier, so Stokes/McCullum doing it isn't an improvement.

One other way to register improvement would be to reach the WTC final, the present pinnacle of test cricket (no matter how much it is derided). If England can win 10+ of their remaining 13 tests, it might be possible to squeeze in, depending on other results. A 3rd placed finish would also be an improvement.

I don't believe I consistently predicted failures. I think I said the SA series was 50/50, and I thought England would win in NZ, plus I was quite positive about England's chances after Lyon's injury in the Ashes. And, most impressively of all, I backed England to beat Ireland, showing the greatest faith. Sadly though, for all the ifs and buts, England have come up short in their first two real challenging series. If they'd have won either, or even drawn this one, I'd have been content to applaud the new regime. But they've replicated the old. And now it's a bit of a wait before they get another crack.

England should be looking to comfortably beat WI and SL this summer. A drawn series in either, or worse, would be terrible, I think we can agree. We'll wait and see about the two winter series. I can't believe Pakistan will put out roads again like last time. NZ look in pretty dismal shape in the bowling, their batting could bail them out, however.

England v India in England in 2025 should be an interesting series, but I don't think anyone gives England much of a hope in Australia in 25/26 (which could be Stokes' last series, if he makes it that far).

Not to re-litigate the whole issue, but specifically on Lyon, it is bizarre to suggest that the Aussies were unduly affected by missing Lyon for three Tests of the 2023 Ashes, when England missed their number 1 spinner for all five Tests!

James100 wrote:Not to re-litigate the whole issue, but specifically on Lyon, it is bizarre to suggest that the Aussies were unduly affected by missing Lyon for three Tests of the 2023 Ashes, when England missed their number 1 spinner for all five Tests!

This may on the surface be a fair point, but Lyon was a much bigger loss, comparatively, than Leach.

Leach is a spinner averaging around 32-35, and they had a perfectly adequate replacement in the waiting. The replacement in question, Liam Dawson, would have been a little worse with the ball, nothing much, but would have offset the loss with his superior batting and fielding.

That England decided to pick a 50 average bowler in Moeen, who also couldn't bat or field, was a uncompelled blunder.

Lyon, on the other hand, was a match-winning, sub 30 average bowler, who would have made a real difference.

I think you're being very kind to Liam Dawson here, and I say that as someone who would have picked him over Moeen for the Ashes and would again have taken him to India ahead of Hartley. Dawson is quite accurate, but his stock ball is nowhere near as hard-spun and threatening as Leach's. Essentially England lost the only current English spinner who can defend and attack at Test-level and had to choose between one who could only attack (Moeen), and one who could only defend (Dawson).

Liam Dawson has become prime Monty Panesar at this stage

GSC wrote:Liam Dawson has become prime Monty Panesar at this stage

How dare you suggest county bowler, who's looked woefully out of his depth anytime he's played international cricket, wouldn't have simply stepped in and played like Rangana Herath!

James100 wrote:I think you're being very kind to Liam Dawson here, and I say that as someone who would have picked him over Moeen for the Ashes and would again have taken him to India ahead of Hartley. Dawson is quite accurate, but his stock ball is nowhere near as hard-spun and threatening as Leach's. Essentially England lost the only current English spinner who can defend and attack at Test-level and had to choose between one who could only attack (Moeen), and one who could only defend (Dawson).

Well we'll never know, but I think Dawson would have averaged around 35-40 in the Ashes with the ball, and would have almost certainly done better than Moeen (not exactly a hard task). I don't think that's especially kind, in truth.

I didn't know that was prime Monty Panesar or Herath level, either, but there we go.

KP_fan wrote:

msp83 wrote:Looking ahead to the next game, think Patidar needs a reset and needs to go back to domestic cricket. As Madhya Pradesh have qualified for Ranji semis, he should just focus on that rather than going through what seems to be a rather torturous situation as suggested by his demeanour and body language. If KL Rahul is fit, he should be back, or it has to be a debut for Devdutt Padikkal. Kohli is not officially ruled out from the 5th test is he? Don't think he's going to be back, and in any case with the series won, it has to be an opportunity for the youngsters. So would rather prefer Padikkal than KL even. As for Jas Bumrah, he was keen to play all 5 tests and had to be talked out of it by the management. I am sure he would want to come back as he'd have a 3 week off by then. But with the series in the bag and young Akash Deep making a claim to be that 4th seamer in the group behind Bumrah, Shami and Siraj, would want to have another look at him in possibly more friendly conditions in Dharamshala. And if Jas really insists, hopefully Akash can be retained for Siraj who hasn't been at his best in the series. Yes he had that previous turnaround performance, but he was only a bit quicker than Robinson who bowled at Gangulyesk pace in the test...

First of all the pitch will be more of the same like in last 2 tests and unlike the traditional Dharmshala seam friendly, but it's cool and pitch could be damp under the covers first morning.
So there is a consolation reward of an hour and half of seam movement & also assistance for spin for the team losing the toss....and presumably being asked to bowl first
With series in bag no way will BCCI play Bumrah........he's gotta be kept fit & preserved for IPL & then world cup.
The team will remain the same with the exception of Paddikal for Patidar....if KL is not fit.
And Sai Sudarshan may be the stand by.

I would like to see Jadeja go back to 6 and KL at 4 , sarfaraz 5 .
If Paddikal plays, he goes to 5 and Sarfaraz to 4.

I would rest Ashwin whose knee is acting up and looks jaded.....and bring Washington for him....butt that ain't gonna happen as Gavasakr is already discussing how to celebrate Ashwin's 100th test

Padikkal has been an opening batter who has just moved down to 3 this season whereas Sarfaraz is someone who has hardly batted above 5 for Mumbai. I'd have Padikkal at 4, Sarfaraz at 5 and Jadeja at 6. Or if there is an early collapse like 30-3 or something, would surely have Jadeja in at 5, he trusts his defense more than most in this lineup these days, and does a fairly decent job of it more often than not... For the very reason you mentioned, the possible dampness that conditions can bring about, I'd have Ashwin in if he's in reasonable shape, as he's an absolute master at exploiting it. I hope they give Shams Mulani a call-up, though his batting numbers aren't exceptional, he can possibly be a better backup for Jadeja in the long run. Think Axar is found out as a bowler at top level, and unlike say Jadeja, he hasn't shown an ability to evolve as a bowler. Axar seems a better bat than Mulani's numbers indicate, but the latter is a much superior bowler who surely can bat... The problem with Washi Sundar is that his bowling, while pretty handy in limited overs, again hasn't evolved enough, and with his recent injury history, hasn't had much FC experience after his initial brush with test cricket. I do have high hopes of him, but think he needs time to refine his craft with the ball... Washi is clearly the better bat in comparison to Axar, I can't determine who's the poorer bowler between the too.

Duty281 wrote:The thing with NZ was they suffered two in-game injuries in successive tests to key bowlers. That torpedoed them. I'm still of the view, as unpopular as it may be, that if De Grandhomme hadn't broken down with injury in the first test, thereby placing a greater workload on the main trio, that England would have fallen short in the first test.

Not even a workload thing iirc, Stokes was batting like he had money on de Grandhomme getting him out.

Duty281 wrote:I'm afraid to say that all of England's next 13 or so tests are, indeed, against mediocre opposition or worse - 3 v WI, 3 v SL, 3 v Pak, 3 v NZ, 1 v Zim. I wish it weren't so, but there it is. I wish the West Indies were the force of old, but it isn't so. We can't seriously pretend any of these teams are great, can we?

WI did just tie a Test series in Australia…

msp83 wrote:

KP_fan wrote:

msp83 wrote:Looking ahead to the next game, think Patidar needs a reset and needs to go back to domestic cricket. As Madhya Pradesh have qualified for Ranji semis, he should just focus on that rather than going through what seems to be a rather torturous situation as suggested by his demeanour and body language. If KL Rahul is fit, he should be back, or it has to be a debut for Devdutt Padikkal. Kohli is not officially ruled out from the 5th test is he? Don't think he's going to be back, and in any case with the series won, it has to be an opportunity for the youngsters. So would rather prefer Padikkal than KL even. As for Jas Bumrah, he was keen to play all 5 tests and had to be talked out of it by the management. I am sure he would want to come back as he'd have a 3 week off by then. But with the series in the bag and young Akash Deep making a claim to be that 4th seamer in the group behind Bumrah, Shami and Siraj, would want to have another look at him in possibly more friendly conditions in Dharamshala. And if Jas really insists, hopefully Akash can be retained for Siraj who hasn't been at his best in the series. Yes he had that previous turnaround performance, but he was only a bit quicker than Robinson who bowled at Gangulyesk pace in the test...

First of all the pitch will be more of the same like in last 2 tests and unlike the traditional Dharmshala seam friendly, but it's cool and pitch could be damp under the covers first morning.
So there is a consolation reward of an hour and half of seam movement & also assistance for spin for the team losing the toss....and presumably being asked to bowl first
With series in bag no way will BCCI play Bumrah........he's gotta be kept fit & preserved for IPL & then world cup.
The team will remain the same with the exception of Paddikal for Patidar....if KL is not fit.
And Sai Sudarshan may be the stand by.

I would like to see Jadeja go back to 6 and KL at 4 , sarfaraz 5 .
If Paddikal plays, he goes to 5 and Sarfaraz to 4.

I would rest Ashwin whose knee is acting up and looks jaded.....and bring Washington for him....butt that ain't gonna happen as Gavasakr is already discussing how to celebrate Ashwin's 100th test

Padikkal has been an opening batter who has just moved down to 3 this season whereas Sarfaraz is someone who has hardly batted above 5 for Mumbai. I'd have Padikkal at 4, Sarfaraz at 5 and Jadeja at 6. Or if there is an early collapse like 30-3 or something, would surely have Jadeja in at 5, he trusts his defense more than most in this lineup these days, and does a fairly decent job of it more often than not... For the very reason you mentioned, the possible dampness that conditions can bring about, I'd have Ashwin in if he's in reasonable shape, as he's an absolute master at exploiting it. I hope they give Shams Mulani a call-up, though his batting numbers aren't exceptional, he can possibly be a better backup for Jadeja in the long run. Think Axar is found out as a bowler at top level, and unlike say Jadeja, he hasn't shown an ability to evolve as a bowler. Axar seems a better bat than Mulani's numbers indicate, but the latter is a much superior bowler who surely can bat... The problem with Washi Sundar is that his bowling, while pretty handy in limited overs, again hasn't evolved enough, and with his recent injury history, hasn't had much FC experience after his initial brush with test cricket. I do have high hopes of him, but think he needs time to refine his craft with the ball... Washi is clearly the better bat in comparison to Axar, I can't determine who's the poorer bowler between the too.

Hi msp
You're right about Paddikal..he should bat as high as possible.
That he is a Ranji and also India A opener eluded my mind.
Jadeja I would leave at 6 because he becomes overly defensive at 5

On spinners
I believe Axar is done for good and won't be in the squad when Ind next play tests vs BD in Sep.

Ashwin is at the start of his end, doesn't look fit, escorts the ball to boundary, knee trouble, batting has declined and what should be the stock big spinning off break wasn't seen in this series, although he did bowl that in WI.

Unfortunately there is no quality off spinner in FC circuit either nor a quality leggie other than Shreyas Gopal who is a decent batsman also but doesn't figure in A games implies he is not in reckoning.
So the mantle of lead spinner who will bamboozle batters at home will pass to Kuldeep who at 29 is peaking and has good 7 to 8 years more.

For overseas tours the replacement for Jadeja aught to be Washington as 5th bowler whose job is to keep things tight and exploit rough on day 4 and 5
He is the only one who can match Jadeja's batting skills.
At home we he can do the job of a 3rd spinner, tight, fastest and with a lot of Kumble like top spinners and floaters.

Replacement for Axar who will also be next line for Jadeja will be
Saurabh Kumar & shams Mulani who are equa SLAs Saurabh a shade better bowler 1 step ahead in Peking order, 4 years older than Mulani, can bat but a shade lesser batter than Mulani.

Then there are Mohd Shhabaz of Bengal genuine SLA all rounder batting average 43 and bowling average 21 in bowling heavy lineup.

And Manav Suthar who is the youngest SLA aged 21 and quite a decent batsman, one whose batting is still on the rise.

There is plenty of replacement options for Axar and even Jadeja's SLA and all can bat .....but Washington and Kuldeep are quite unique.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

GSC wrote:Liam Dawson has become prime Monty Panesar at this stage

How dare you suggest county bowler, who's looked woefully out of his depth anytime he's played international cricket, wouldn't have simply stepped in and played like Rangana Herath!

Now now, Olly. I'll have you know that his career bowling stats are almost identical to Dom Bess.

I'm waiting for the NZ vs Oz series to judge the current ABs. I feel they are still a better side than being lumped into 'mid-tier'.

Their batting remains fantastic. Especially at home where England are playing them. Williamson's recent record is well known. Conway and Mitchell have looked like fabulous players for a while now. Ravindra looks like another quality middle order bat. Latham has a strong record. Whilst Blundell has slipped into the keep role well.

The seam bowling is weaker than their prime. It isn't being helped by Jamieson's injuries or Boult shifting away from int cricket either. Southee is still a quality bowler though. Henry has just kept improving. Whilst I really like the look of Will O'Rourke.

It feels very selective when you are raising injury absentees and replacements, Duty. Compared to the 2019 Ashes and 2021 India tour that you are comparing too, England have been missing Jof and had Stokes no longer able to bowl. Both gigantic shifts. Leach has then been injured and ill. Pope missed most the Ashes. They've had Robinson limp off mid Test match. They've also had Anderson and Broad being a few years older of course. Bairstow also had his leg rebuilt before the latest Ashes and India series too.

If we are comparing teams faced, then it should also be noted that Australia's batting in 2023 was much better overall IMO. In 2019, Head couldn't bat away from bouncy Australian tracks and if a seamer came around the wicket to him he look genuinely perplexed that they were allowed to do that. in 2019 he got left out for Matthew Wade after Marnus made runs. Whereas by 2023 he's developed into a fabulous player who has played winning hands in the Ashes, WTC and CWC final. Then Khawaja has been brilliant since his recall as well. He was the most assured batter across the 2023 series.

I've previously asserted that notwithstanding his traditional classical batting style, Ben Foakes can't bat with the tail for toffee and have speculated about him moving up to number 5 or 6 where he regularly bats for Surrey. Think it's fair to say that the first part has pretty much been accepted here whilst the second (and I don't particularly disagree) just isn't seen as practical.

Interesting (at least to me) that some of the cricket journos are now starting to voice similar comments. I just had a look at the player ratings published online following T4. Here's what a couple said about Foakes:

George Dobell - The Cricketer - ''A game which showed the strengths and weaknesses of Foakes. His first innings stand with Root of 113 was made in tough conditions and put England into a strong position. In the second, though, his limitations batting with the tail were exposed as he was powerless to prevent England losing their final seven wickets for 35 runs. Kept as well as ever. 5.5 [out of 10]''

Lawrence Booth - Mail Online'' - ''Helped turn round England's first innings in partnership with Root, but could do little with the tail in the second. There is a case for him swapping places in the order with Bairstow.'' Rated 7, somewhat generously imo.

The Telegraph and The i both awarded Foakes a rating of 6 referring respectively to his second innings as ''shotless'' and ''toothless''.

Still unsure how realistic it would be for Foakes and Bairstow to swap places as Booth ponders but noticeable it is raised as a possibility.

I just need the journos to now cotton onto my bugbear about Foakes' lack of command and decision making when it comes to reviews. For that as again displayed in this Test together with the reviews quoted above, I would have awarded him 5. A bit harsh perhaps but I don't give half-marks.

guildfordbat wrote:I've previously asserted that notwithstanding his traditional classical batting style, Ben Foakes can't bat with the tail for toffee and have speculated about him moving up to number 5 or 6 where he regularly bats for Surrey. Think it's fair to say that the first part has pretty much been accepted here whilst the second (and I don't particularly disagree) just isn't seen as practical.

Interesting (at least to me) that some of the cricket journos are now starting to voice similar comments. I just had a look at the player ratings published online following T4. Here's what a couple said about Foakes:

George Dobell - The Cricketer - ''A game which showed the strengths and weaknesses of Foakes. His first innings stand with Root of 113 was made in tough conditions and put England into a strong position. In the second, though, his limitations batting with the tail were exposed as he was powerless to prevent England losing their final seven wickets for 35 runs. Kept as well as ever. 5.5 [out of 10]''

Lawrence Booth - Mail Online'' - ''Helped turn round England's first innings in partnership with Root, but could do little with the tail in the second. There is a case for him swapping places in the order with Bairstow.'' Rated 7, somewhat generously imo.

The Telegraph and The i both awarded Foakes a rating of 6 referring respectively to his second innings as ''shotless'' and ''toothless''.

Still unsure how realistic it would be for Foakes and Bairstow to swap places as Booth ponders but noticeable it is raised as a possibility.

I just need the journos to now cotton onto my bugbear about Foakes' lack of command and decision making when it comes to reviews. For that as again displayed in this Test together with the reviews quoted above, I would have awarded him 5. A bit harsh perhaps but I don't give half-marks.

In cricket like many things in life we start seeing imitations relative to what others have.
If Ind's WK continued to be Bharat scoring  his timid tens and 15s , Foakes' limitations would be less conspicuous.
Jurel exposed what a good batsman WK at 7 working with lower order can achieve or aught to aim for and in contrast what Ind was missing with Bharat and Eng continues to with Foakes.

As I see Eng will move  Bairstow into the WK slot batting at 7 when Brook is back and will play at 5 or 6.
How good Bairstow's WK wil be will be the next debate.....it can't be anywhere close to Foakes  and he would be expected to drop about 3 catches and miss 1 stumping that Foakes could execute this series for eg.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2024/feb/27/ollie-robinson-test-future-in-doubt-after-disappointing-return-in-india-england-cricket

Management beginning to run out of patience with Robinson.

Yeah. Obviously talented but just doesn't seem willing to do the work on the fitness side to reach his peak

Shame, can't think of a more talented seamer that came into the side for many years other than Jofra Archer. Even Broad and Anderson had to work before becoming a key part of the side, Robinson looked the part straight away. He can clearly also bat a bit and be one of those very annoying number 8s for the opposition

KP_fan wrote:As I see Eng will move  Bairstow into the WK slot batting at 7 when Brook is back and will play at 5 or 6.
How good Bairstow's WK wil be will be the next debate.....it can't be anywhere close to Foakes  and he would be expected to drop about 3 catches and miss 1 stumping that Foakes could execute this series for eg.

By comments from several usually on the money journalists, it sounds like Foakes was given the nod to keep in this series before Brook went home. So the final batting spot was between Bairstow and Pope, rather than Foakes or Bairstow keeping. Rumours are that Bairstow was told he needed to improve his fitness after the Ashes and CWC where it was clearly an issue first as keeper, then as an outfielder.

I do feel for Bairstow. That leg injury was potentially career ending and came just as it looked like he'd cracked Test cricket. He'd been a frustration who hadn't quite converted his County Championship record into consistent Test runs in past, it feels that some fans have just reverted to Bairstow being nothing but a frustration again now. Whereas it does feel like that injury has put a sudden stop to what was an astonishing bit of form.

I also think it's unfair that some fans keep suggesting that he's made runs when it was easy since returning. Due mainly to the Ashes 99* at Old Trafford with a great platform. His 78 in T1 of that series was an excellent knock under big pressure. England were 176-5, on an absolute road, day one of an Ashes series. Root got the century, but it was Bairstow's counter punching innings that turned the tide there. That's in no way a low pressure knock. His other 78 in T5, again in partnership with Root, was also vital in England getting up to the lead that eventually won that game.

I have a feeling they may move away from Bairstow the keeper. I'm not sure that means Foakes the keeper will be nailed on though. I can really see this setup fancying a look at Jamie Smith over the next 4 Test series. James Rew is really highly rated too. Whilst Ollie Robinson (the talented WK-batter, not the seamer who has a phobia of running) will be fancying an early summer charge with Durham back in Div 1.

The keeper spot feels especially dependent on whether Stokes actually bowls much longer term. If he can bowl properly, then your keeper bats 7. Life's easy then. If not, England generally look better in most conditions with 4 seamers. That may well mean trying to use combinations of Woakes, Rehan and maybe even Sam Curran at 7/8 to lengthen the tail and add a bowler. Then a keeper who can bat 6 becomes vital. In that sort of scenario I genuinely wouldn't rule out this setup going as far as Pope getting the gloves and shifting down to 6, with Stokes batting 3, if they felt it gave them the best possible balance.

Mean time, BCCI acts tough, removes Ishan Kishan and Shreyas Iyer from central contract. Very strong signal, and I must say I like this. Of course unlike most other boards, the BCCI is in a position to do this, and they've done it too. Iyer, dropped from the test squad after being cleared fit, didn't make himself available for Mumbai's quarter Final Ranji game against Baroda though he has now made himself available. More than him not playing, what seem to have not gone down well is the fact that he was there in the KKR pre-season camp while not playing the Ranji game.
Kishan n the other hand, didn't play any game for Jharkhand in the Ranji Trophy after leaving the South Africa tour. Seems the management had reached out to him prior to the England tests but he didn't make himself available. Instead he was training with Hardik Pandya...
Coupled with Rohit's strong statement about selection priorities for those who really are hungry to play tests, seems the BCCI has drawn a line...

With Dhruv Jurel performing the way he has done, and Pant almost back in action, the road back might be particularly hard for Ishan Kishan... This series would have been a great opportunity for him,, the lad seems to have made a complete mess of the situation... He'd have to hope he'll have an absolutely brilliant, chart topping kind of IPL this season, even a decent campaign may not be enough...

It's interesting in a way to see Kishan basically choosing his IPL future over the BCCI though. It's seemed likely for a while that there was going to come a point where the IPL owners rather than the BCCI became the biggest players in the sport. With the IPL teams investing in other leagues I wonder if that shift may be coming?

Duty281 wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2024/feb/27/ollie-robinson-test-future-in-doubt-after-disappointing-return-in-india-england-cricket

Management beginning to run out of patience with Robinson.

That podcast is a hilariously s**t thing to have interfered with a players career if so. As a recreational golfer and avid cricket fan I gave it a brief listen. Robinson's girlfriend, Mia Baker, is a prominent golf YouTuber for those not aware. Baker is a likable enough character as well. It's dreadful. I found it impressively boring. Two people with fairly limited insight in their respective areas of expertise and no insight into the others sport, not really talking about much.

Robinson really isn't the sharpest tool in the shed is he? Even starting that podcast understandably raised eyebrows. Private is private and all that, but at the end of the day, he left his wife of 8 years and mother of his child 3 months before their wedding and almost immediately was in a relationship with someone much younger. Maybe keep your head down pal? Don't advertise it? A few folk probably suspicious of some overlap with the partners there. Nah, let's start a podcast, get out there. Proper eejit.

That said, the media team (presumably it's the PR side anyway) being upset with Robinson talking about the lavish luxury of the private jet is a bit funny. I can imagine the conversation now. "If people have been angry with Taylor Swift using private jet then what f***ing chance do cricketers stand Ollie?!". More concerned with the appearance of their itinerary than the actual impact of it perhaps? If they're concerned with how fans will feel about further unnecessary air miles, then reducing flights might be the first step...

Will Macpherson's article on Robinson and McCullum's more critical than usual interview were interesting to me. Macpherson seems to be the journalist with the best links to the England setup these days. It really does sound like they are understandably losing patience. It's difficult to be that sympathetic when a seamer is repeatedly short of fitness. He's so talented. It's incredibly frustrating. It seems his peak pace is right on that line where he's just quick enough to be effective on Test pitches. At that pace he can be mesmerising. Below it, pedestrian. As such he has so little room for drop off. Yet drops off alarmingly quickly and regularly for a seamer at the slower end of medium-fast.

king_carlos wrote:

KP_fan wrote:As I see Eng will move  Bairstow into the WK slot batting at 7 when Brook is back and will play at 5 or 6.
How good Bairstow's WK wil be will be the next debate.....it can't be anywhere close to Foakes  and he would be expected to drop about 3 catches and miss 1 stumping that Foakes could execute this series for eg.

By comments from several usually on the money journalists, it sounds like Foakes was given the nod to keep in this series before Brook went home. So the final batting spot was between Bairstow and Pope, rather than Foakes or Bairstow keeping. Rumours are that Bairstow was told he needed to improve his fitness after the Ashes and CWC where it was clearly an issue first as keeper, then as an outfielder.

I do feel for Bairstow. That leg injury was potentially career ending and came just as it looked like he'd cracked Test cricket. He'd been a frustration who hadn't quite converted his County Championship record into consistent Test runs in past, it feels that some fans have just reverted to Bairstow being nothing but a frustration again now. Whereas it does feel like that injury has put a sudden stop to what was an astonishing bit of form.

I also think it's unfair that some fans keep suggesting that he's made runs when it was easy since returning. Due mainly to the Ashes 99* at Old Trafford with a great platform. His 78 in T1 of that series was an excellent knock under big pressure. England were 176-5, on an absolute road, day one of an Ashes series. Root got the century, but it was Bairstow's counter punching innings that turned the tide there. That's in no way a low pressure knock. His other 78 in T5, again in partnership with Root, was also vital in England getting up to the lead that eventually won that game.

I have a feeling they may move away from Bairstow the keeper. I'm not sure that means Foakes the keeper will be nailed on though. I can really see this setup fancying a look at Jamie Smith over the next 4 Test series. James Rew is really highly rated too. Whilst Ollie Robinson (the talented WK-batter, not the seamer who has a phobia of running) will be fancying an early summer charge with Durham back in Div 1.

The keeper spot feels especially dependent on whether Stokes actually bowls much longer term. If he can bowl properly, then your keeper bats 7. Life's easy then. If not, England generally look better in most conditions with 4 seamers. That may well mean trying to use combinations of Woakes, Rehan and maybe even Sam Curran at 7/8 to lengthen the tail and add a bowler. Then a keeper who can bat 6 becomes vital. In that sort of scenario I genuinely wouldn't rule out this setup going as far as Pope getting the gloves and shifting down to 6, with Stokes batting 3, if they felt it gave them the best possible balance.

Bairstow was the linchpin around whom bazballing( which now has a jelly-like flexible definition but in it's original context was scoring fast and especially chasing down big totals with a consistency unheard of ) was built.
His WK-ing was really not upto the mark in Ashes but his batting was great.....hope he gets a few more tests in the English summer as a batter.

If Foakes has to play as a WK and I think he is a good WK..... I would move him up to no. 3 or 5...he has the technique and game to build innings.....but does not have the game to farm strike with lower order and hack away when only one or two wickets are in hand.
On the contrary his technique and game is suited towards "proper" test innings higher up without pressure of running out of partners.

Alternatively would Eng consider what Indians did thru KL Rahul to make a full time WK out of a batsman who can keep and has kept wickets in some grade cricket ? i.e Olly Pope in this case.

msp83 wrote:Mean time, BCCI acts tough, removes Ishan Kishan and Shreyas Iyer from central contract. Very strong signal, and I must say I like this. Of course unlike most other boards, the BCCI is in a position to do this, and they've done it too. Iyer, dropped from the test squad after being cleared fit, didn't make himself available for Mumbai's quarter Final Ranji game against Baroda though he has now made himself available. More than him not playing, what seem to have not gone down well is the fact that he was there in the KKR pre-season camp while not playing the Ranji game.
Kishan n the other hand, didn't play any game for Jharkhand in the Ranji Trophy after leaving the South Africa tour. Seems the management had reached out to him prior to the England tests but he didn't make himself available. Instead he was training with Hardik Pandya...
Coupled with Rohit's strong statement about selection priorities for those who really are hungry to play tests, seems the BCCI has drawn a line...

The strong signal does not apply to Kohli, Pandya, KL who can just walk in
Everyone in my view should play a Ranji or List-A game before returning to tests / ODI or IPL before coming to T20Is.

Selectors want to release Patidar as his Ranji side MP has made it to semis, but the trouble is that KL Rahul is still not fit.
He has flown to UK to get specialist advise. If his quadricep has not healed yet & he had to fly to UK, I doubt if he will play.
Patidar surely will not play in that case, Padikal will but they need to have a like for like concussion sub available and also in case on the morning of game one batsman pulls up sore.
Though in later case Washington could play as a batter.Ideally India should replace Patidar with a batter who is not in the 4 Ranji semi-final sides and hence it cannot be Sai Sudarshan...maybe Ricky Bhui with 900+ runs this season at 75+avg or Eswaran

There are murmurs that NCA cleared Rahul of any injuries but like Iyer he is reluctant to play a 5 day game and risk any aggravation and lose the entire IPL.
However if he skips test and is fit to play IPL, would make him brutally exposed in these times of SM.

king_carlos wrote:

Duty281 wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2024/feb/27/ollie-robinson-test-future-in-doubt-after-disappointing-return-in-india-england-cricket

Management beginning to run out of patience with Robinson.

That podcast is a hilariously s**t thing to have interfered with a players career if so. As a recreational golfer and avid cricket fan I gave it a brief listen. Robinson's girlfriend, Mia Baker, is a prominent golf YouTuber for those not aware. Baker is a likable enough character as well. It's dreadful. I found it impressively boring. Two people with fairly limited insight in their respective areas of expertise and no insight into the others sport, not really talking about much.

Robinson really isn't the sharpest tool in the shed is he? Even starting that podcast understandably raised eyebrows. Private is private and all that, but at the end of the day, he left his wife of 8 years and mother of his child 3 months before their wedding and almost immediately was in a relationship with someone much younger. Maybe keep your head down pal? Don't advertise it? A few folk probably suspicious of some overlap with the partners there. Nah, let's start a podcast, get out there. Proper eejit.

That said, the media team (presumably it's the PR side anyway) being upset with Robinson talking about the lavish luxury of the private jet is a bit funny. I can imagine the conversation now. "If people have been angry with Taylor Swift using private jet then what f***ing chance do cricketers stand Ollie?!". More concerned with the appearance of their itinerary than the actual impact of it perhaps? If they're concerned with how fans will feel about further unnecessary air miles, then reducing flights might be the first step...

Will Macpherson's article on Robinson and McCullum's more critical than usual interview were interesting to me. Macpherson seems to be the journalist with the best links to the England setup these days. It really does sound like they are understandably losing patience. It's difficult to be that sympathetic when a seamer is repeatedly short of fitness. He's so talented. It's incredibly frustrating. It seems his peak pace is right on that line where he's just quick enough to be effective on Test pitches. At that pace he can be mesmerising. Below it, pedestrian. As such he has so little room for drop off. Yet drops off alarmingly quickly and regularly for a seamer at the slower end of medium-fast.

Excellent post Carlos - it’s a shame Robinson couldn’t put his two brain cells to use and look across the room at Anderson/Wood, two who both had issues when they entered the test arena with injuries, but worked very hard off the field both on technique but also on their fitness to try and reduce those injuries. Obviously with mixed results for Wood (albeit he’s been far more available post run up change than before), and they’ve reaped rewards.
He should’ve been absolutely raring to go for this fourth test - fully fit, fresh, and ready to make his impact.
We just have to hope the Penny drops now

king_carlos wrote:

Duty281 wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2024/feb/27/ollie-robinson-test-future-in-doubt-after-disappointing-return-in-india-england-cricket

Management beginning to run out of patience with Robinson.

That podcast is a hilariously s**t thing to have interfered with a players career if so. As a recreational golfer and avid cricket fan I gave it a brief listen. Robinson's girlfriend, Mia Baker, is a prominent golf YouTuber for those not aware. Baker is a likable enough character as well. It's dreadful. I found it impressively boring. Two people with fairly limited insight in their respective areas of expertise and no insight into the others sport, not really talking about much.

Robinson really isn't the sharpest tool in the shed is he? Even starting that podcast understandably raised eyebrows. Private is private and all that, but at the end of the day, he left his wife of 8 years and mother of his child 3 months before their wedding and almost immediately was in a relationship with someone much younger. Maybe keep your head down pal? Don't advertise it? A few folk probably suspicious of some overlap with the partners there. Nah, let's start a podcast, get out there. Proper eejit.

That said, the media team (presumably it's the PR side anyway) being upset with Robinson talking about the lavish luxury of the private jet is a bit funny. I can imagine the conversation now. "If people have been angry with Taylor Swift using private jet then what f***ing chance do cricketers stand Ollie?!". More concerned with the appearance of their itinerary than the actual impact of it perhaps? If they're concerned with how fans will feel about further unnecessary air miles, then reducing flights might be the first step...

Will Macpherson's article on Robinson and McCullum's more critical than usual interview were interesting to me. Macpherson seems to be the journalist with the best links to the England setup these days. It really does sound like they are understandably losing patience. It's difficult to be that sympathetic when a seamer is repeatedly short of fitness. He's so talented. It's incredibly frustrating. It seems his peak pace is right on that line where he's just quick enough to be effective on Test pitches. At that pace he can be mesmerising. Below it, pedestrian. As such he has so little room for drop off. Yet drops off alarmingly quickly and regularly for a seamer at the slower end of medium-fast.

I am surprised Robinson is allowed to do a podcast, especially when he's supposedly part of the touring group. His story sounds a mixture of Eastenders and Footballers' Wives.

It is frustrating, but ultimately I think it's time to give up with Robinson. He's not in his early 20s, when there might be hope, he's 30. And his test debut was nearly three years ago. He's had numerous chances. If he wants to laze away his talent then that's his affair (again).

king_carlos wrote:It's interesting in a way to see Kishan basically choosing his IPL future over the BCCI though. It's seemed likely for a while that there was going to come a point where the IPL owners rather than the BCCI became the biggest players in the sport. With the IPL teams investing in other leagues I wonder if that shift may be coming?

Don't think the IPL managements/owners aren't yet in a position to challenge the BCCI. The board's move has also to be seen as laying down the marker before such situations can come up. There is plenty of competition for IPL ownership if it opens up and the board will always have some flexibility, though it wouldn't want to go down that path unnecessarily considering the legal and other ramifications. But I don't think the BCCI would be giving up control...

KP_fan wrote:

msp83 wrote:Mean time, BCCI acts tough, removes Ishan Kishan and Shreyas Iyer from central contract. Very strong signal, and I must say I like this. Of course unlike most other boards, the BCCI is in a position to do this, and they've done it too. Iyer, dropped from the test squad after being cleared fit, didn't make himself available for Mumbai's quarter Final Ranji game against Baroda though he has now made himself available. More than him not playing, what seem to have not gone down well is the fact that he was there in the KKR pre-season camp while not playing the Ranji game.
Kishan n the other hand, didn't play any game for Jharkhand in the Ranji Trophy after leaving the South Africa tour. Seems the management had reached out to him prior to the England tests but he didn't make himself available. Instead he was training with Hardik Pandya...
Coupled with Rohit's strong statement about selection priorities for those who really are hungry to play tests, seems the BCCI has drawn a line...

The strong signal does not apply to Kohli, Pandya, KL who can just walk in
Everyone in my view should play a Ranji or List-A game before returning to tests / ODI or IPL before coming to T20Is.

Selectors want to release Patidar as his Ranji side MP has made it to semis, but the trouble is that KL Rahul is still not fit.
He has flown to UK to get specialist advise. If his quadricep has not healed yet & he had to fly to UK, I doubt if he will play.
Patidar surely will not play in that case, Padikal will but they need to have a like for like concussion sub available and also in case on the morning of game one batsman pulls up sore.
Though in later case Washington could play as a batter.Ideally India should replace Patidar with a batter who is not in the 4 Ranji semi-final sides and hence it cannot be Sai Sudarshan...maybe Ricky Bhui with 900+ runs this season at 75+avg or Eswaran

There are murmurs that NCA cleared Rahul of any injuries but like Iyer he is reluctant to play a 5 day game and risk any aggravation and lose the entire IPL.
However if he skips test and is fit to play IPL, would make him brutally exposed in these times of SM.

The selectors should have left out Patidar and brought in someone else. Perhaps Rinku Singh. The guy is in danger of getting typecast as T-20 specialist when he's anything but. Rinku has very impressive FC numbers, and with the IPL and international exposure, can provide a very different, but very possibly effective middle order option.
KL Rahul does seem to have a serious enough issue and is seemingly in England wit hthe backing of the management. The only thing is that he should not get an automatic pass back in, considering he is someone who has got far too many chances without nailing down his place with consistent performances. He has the game surely, for all conditions, and has notable overseas performances under his belt besides good recent form. But the output hasn't been one of a player who should be an automatic pick. Rahul and the management both will do well to remember the same.
As things stand now, I hope Padikkal will get to debut in the next game with Patidar sitting out.
Jasprit Bumrah in the mean time, is set to rejoin the squad... Hope they play Akash and not Siraj who wasn't at his best in the last test and he was seemingly in competition with Robinson for speeds!

msp83 wrote:   selectors should have left out Patidar and brought in someone else. Perhaps Rinku Singh. The guy is in danger of getting typecast as T-20 specialist when he's anything but. Rinku has very impressive FC numbers, and with the IPL and international exposure, can provide a very different, but very possibly effective middle order option.
KL Rahul does seem to have a serious enough issue and is seemingly in England wit hthe backing of the management. The only thing is that he should not get an automatic pass back in, considering he is someone who has got far too many chances without nailing down his place with consistent performances. He has the game surely, for all conditions, and has notable overseas performances under his belt besides good recent form. But the output hasn't been one of a player who should be an automatic pick. Rahul and the management both will do well to remember the same.
As things stand now, I hope Padikkal will get to debut in the next game with Patidar sitting out.
Jasprit Bumrah in the mean time, is set to rejoin the squad... Hope they play Akash and not Siraj who wasn't at his best in the last test and he was seemingly in competition with Robinson for speeds!

You can trust Dravid to come up with some convoluted logic on the most No-Brainer of issues.
on the morning of game if a batsman pull up sore you have Patidar playing again
And God forbid if Jurel pulls up something  we may see Patidar and Bharat in again
Because they were selected for 3 tests so they are official stand-bys
And Rinku was given to play against Lions and failed , so in Dravid's regimental style he cannot be considered unless he.performs in A games.

KL stands to lose INR 17 crores ( more than usd 2M) if he is declared unfit before start of IPL per the injury rules,  but gets big chunk if he is injured playing IPL
That's why he does not want to risk his tender fitness playing a 5 day test.

I do believe they will play Akashdeep announcing that Siraj needs rest while the factual reason might be that  Akashdeep looked better especially with new ball.
Although Siraj bowled a good spell with old balk taking 2 wickets and getting reverse and in that spell he touched 139kph, I recollect.

BCCi is handing out fast bowling contracts to the top potential pace bowlers not covered under A,B,C grade contracts
Good move it includes Akashdeep,  Umran, Yash dayal, Vidyut Kaverappa and Vijaykumar.
I saw Vijay is 140+ hitting 147 and very handy with the bat.
Yash is the only left arm potential Ind has currently.and Umran is a waste, don't think he has brain to control and plan dismissals and his speeds drop very rapidly from 155 to 132kph  

KP_fan wrote:

msp83 wrote:   selectors should have left out Patidar and brought in someone else. Perhaps Rinku Singh. The guy is in danger of getting typecast as T-20 specialist when he's anything but. Rinku has very impressive FC numbers, and with the IPL and international exposure, can provide a very different, but very possibly effective middle order option.
KL Rahul does seem to have a serious enough issue and is seemingly in England wit hthe backing of the management. The only thing is that he should not get an automatic pass back in, considering he is someone who has got far too many chances without nailing down his place with consistent performances. He has the game surely, for all conditions, and has notable overseas performances under his belt besides good recent form. But the output hasn't been one of a player who should be an automatic pick. Rahul and the management both will do well to remember the same.
As things stand now, I hope Padikkal will get to debut in the next game with Patidar sitting out.
Jasprit Bumrah in the mean time, is set to rejoin the squad... Hope they play Akash and not Siraj who wasn't at his best in the last test and he was seemingly in competition with Robinson for speeds!

You can trust Dravid to come up with some convoluted logic on the most No-Brainer of issues.
on the morning of game if a batsman pull up sore you have Patidar playing again
And God forbid if Jurel pulls up something  we may see Patidar and Bharat in again
Because they were selected for 3 tests so they are official stand-bys
And Rinku was given to play against Lions and failed , so in Dravid's regimental style he cannot be considered unless he.performs in A games.

KL stands to lose INR 17 crores ( more than usd 2M) if he is declared unfit before start of IPL per the injury rules,  but gets big chunk if he is injured playing IPL
That's why he does not want to risk his tender fitness playing a 5 day test.

I do believe they will play Akashdeep announcing that Siraj needs rest while the factual reason might be that  Akashdeep looked better especially with new ball.
Although Siraj bowled a good spell with old balk taking 2 wickets and getting reverse and in that spell he touched 139kph, I recollect.

BCCi is handing out fast bowling contracts to the top potential pace bowlers not covered under A,B,C grade contracts
Good move it includes Akashdeep,  Umran, Yash dayal, Vidyut Kaverappa and Vijaykumar.
I saw Vijay is 140+ hitting 147 and very handy with the bat.
Yash is the only left arm potential Ind has currently.and Umran is a waste, don't think he has brain to control and plan dismissals and his speeds drop very rapidly from 155 to 132kph  

Siraj surely is india's 3rd best quick after Bumrah and Shami. But he has been playing all formats for a while with much rest. He did bowl a decisive spell in the 3rd test, and as you pointed out, was effective with the old ball and the pace indeed was up there. But in general, he seemed a bit down, and the new ball spell was uninspiring. Even when he returned in the 2nd innings for an over or 2, just didn't seem on top of his game. Considering the series is won, Bumrah is back to lead the attack, Akash showing such promise, along with Siraj's not top drawer game in the last test, Akash should be played ahead of him.
Yes, excellent call to give fast bowling contracts. Umran, I too have my doubts. But he does have serious pace, and more FC cricket might make him a better bowler, provided he works with the right coaches... But yes, certainly not there... The Karnataka lads, Vijaykumar Vyshak, and Vidwath Kaverappa are both prospects, think the latter is a more rounded bowler... I know you don't rate him high, but I do have hopes of Prasidh Krishna, another Karnataka lad.

KP_fan wrote:KL stands to lose INR 17 crores

Had to look that up, think I might have to try using it going forward.

Around the start of this series, I wondered if the early start to the English season and the availability of more proven spinners at their county sides would adversely impact the development of Shoaib Bashir and Tom Hartley.

Somerset's head coach Jason Kerr has now stated that like most counties, Somerset are unlikely to play two spinners early season and would be ''open'' to Bashir going on loan. If required, that would seem a sensible option so as to keep the player and England onside as well as being in Somerset's best medium to long term interests.

Mind you, I'm not sure how much it'll be necessary. Jack Leach, Bashir's fellow Ciderman spinner, only went under the knife last week and I suspect all will be wary of rushing him back too soon, especially given his injury and sickness record.

No word yet from Lancashire as far as I'm aware of how they're going to get game time for Hartley with new signing Nathan Lyon available all season.

However, one England Test spinner on the move is Hampshire's leggie Mason Crane. He played a solitary Test in Sydney back in 2018. He's just moved on loan to Glamorgan for the 2024 season (a whole season loan in this country is new to me). Last season, he played just two Championship matches for Hants with his opportunities considerably curtailed by the slow bowling success of Liam Dawson. Clearly, Duty isn't the only one with belief in Dawson.

guildfordbat wrote:Around the start of this series, I wondered if the early start to the English season and the availability of more proven spinners at their county sides would adversely impact the development of Shoaib Bashir and Tom Hartley.

Somerset's head coach Jason Kerr has now stated that like most counties, Somerset are unlikely to play two spinners early season and would be ''open'' to Bashir going on loan. If required, that would seem a sensible option so as to keep the player and England onside as well as being in Somerset's best medium to long term interests.

Mind you, I'm not sure how much it'll be necessary. Jack Leach, Bashir's fellow Ciderman spinner, only went under the knife last week and I suspect all will be wary of rushing him back too soon, especially given his injury and sickness record.

No word yet from Lancashire as far as I'm aware of how they're going to get game time for Hartley with new signing Nathan Lyon available all season.

However, one England Test spinner on the move is Hampshire's leggie Mason Crane. He played a solitary Test in Sydney back in 2018. He's just moved on loan to Glamorgan for the 2024 season (a whole season loan in this country is new to me). Last season, he played just two Championship matches for Hants with his opportunities considerably curtailed by the slow bowling success of Liam Dawson. Clearly, Duty isn't the only one with belief in Dawson.

The issue is, even if Hartley and Bashir are in a county XI early in the season, are they likely to bowl much at all?

It's a quibble I keep coming back to in discussions around how to develop more rounded bowlers - both spin and seam. A lot of folk say, "Play CC in the best summer months". Which is a reasonable thing to suggest. The issue remains, I still don't think we'd see spinners or quicker seamers needed much! Take a hypothetical where, ignoring all financial realities, they could exclusively play CC cricket for the entirety of July and August. No white ball cricket at all. Only CC. How many more counties are actually going to curate turning pitches with the better weather? My honest guess would be, none. I think we'd just see the same list of medium-fast seamers taking bags of wickets on seaming tracks and Simon Harmer. It'd just be sunnier whilst it happened.

It's the same old circular argument with the county system. It's often said that the CC doesn't make money. Which is only true in an oversimplified view. It makes red ball cricketers, who play Tests, which make most the money in English cricket. Which means the county system is integral. Without the CC we don't have Test players, without Tests the Sky package is much smaller, without that Sky package many counties start going broke instantly when the ECB handouts from that package cease or diminish. The counties will say their primary objective is winning the CC though, not making Test players. Generally the best way to win trophies in England is to stack the XI with nibbling seamers and occasionally glance at a spinner if they can bat at 8.

The two objectives pull against each other. Yet for any meaningful change to occur, those proposals need to get past 18 voting counties. Which never happens.

BBC weather forecasting freezing conditions for the first day of the final test. -1 degree Celsius and the possibility of sleet.

That alone makes the fifth test interesting.

Duty281 wrote:BBC weather forecasting freezing conditions for the first day of the final test. -1 degree Celsius and the possibility of sleet.

That alone makes the fifth test interesting.

Ha! I know there was snow on the outfield about three weeks ago. A mate of mine is going to this one.

Duty281 wrote:BBC weather forecasting freezing conditions for the first day of the final test. -1 degree Celsius and the possibility of sleet.

That alone makes the fifth test interesting.

BBC does show -1 to -6 degC temperatures

While other weather channels show 10to 18degC during daytime
And 7degC night time lows
And rain interruptions during 5 days especially on day 1

I wonder if BBC is picking their forecast from some station from high mountains in the backdrop, instead of stadium which is located at foothills

There have been 4 Ranji games in 2024 two each in Jan and Feb.
I think both teams will go with 2 seamers....Eng should replace Robinson with someone and keep Anderson.The overhead and cool weather will suit swing.
Good place for Stokes to bowl a few overs

If Anderson plays the final test I'm actually worried because it might mean he'll retire after this series. 700 and out.

But if he doesn't play we'll know he's committed to another English summer, because there's no way anyone wants to retire on 698!

I'd be surprised if Jimmy bowed out after an away series. Plus he just signed a central contract around the CWC.

I reckon he's got another summer in him yet. Especially after the last one being fairly poor by his standards. He looked frequently toothless in the Ashes. Though he did bowl economically of course.