England's Winter of Cricket 2023/24

First topic message reminder :

I haven't seen a ball from today. Not sure I want to seeing the scorecard.

I woke up early for work, checked the score, saw the collapse, felt sad. Then didn't look again until after close.

It all looked so promising for a moment.

https://indianexpress.com/article/sports/cricket/india-versus-england-indias-challenge-to-make-rainy-chilly-dharamsala-non-english-9187319/

In an environment of 30 crazy news & online channels trying to break news in a hurry, with half baked and floating rumors....IE has been relatively more reliable.
Two updates from them:
1- Dravid has seemingly thru the art of over-analyis, convoluted logic and wordsmithy convinced himsefl and all relevant stake holders that Patidar should get another chance ahead of Paddikal.

2- And a detailed report on this link about pitch preparations.
It will be black soil, slow, devoid of green grass....just enuf grass,to hold/bind the pitch,  preferably brown/dead grass .
And pitch preparations started about two weeks before test start date...which is unusually long.

Relatively lower temperatures and showers create the problem of not enuf sun and time to get the pitch to dry.
Hence it will be damp...Ranchi only a few degrees cooler than first 3 tests....was damp in first session.
This is a lot cooler than Ranchi, typical European early Spring weather type cold still there.....so much less chance to get rid of the moisture.
B.t.w moisture is there because pitches are watered and rolled with heavy roller and dead grass to keep them bound together for 5 days.
If you don't water enough, it will crumble faster.

So the obvious problem will be getting rid of the moisture.....and if the dampness is too much, i.e it goes beyond first session, then it will be a hard choice for the captain winning toss.
Further with rain around and moisture in the air, for the first time in the series, the overheads will support conventional swing.

Or in other words, toss will be nullified  to some extent as was the case in Ranchi to some extent ...where Eng lost 5 wickets in first session owing to the dampness, 6 actually given that Crawley was cartwheeled twice.

If you look at D1 scorecards of Ranji semis ongoing now and in general D1 of Ranji games thru the season....seamers have done exceptionally well...because of dampness.

Mean time in the Ranji Semis, Shreyas Iyer marked his return with a failure, making only 3. Washington Sundar had an underwhelming game too, bowling only 7 overs in the Mumbai innings, and failing to convrt his start of 43 into something more substantive, though he was the 2nd top-scorer for his side. Out of favor bowler Shardul Thakur again made an impact with the bat, scoring a crucial ton rescuing Mumbai from a precarious position and then consolidating their position in the game. Shardul, like Axar Patel, will have to earn their places back on the basis of their primary skills offering better returns, but the runs, and the ability to score those, will keep them in the mix more often than not.

Brown & seemingly Barren, The Dharamshala Pitch
5,000 English separators expected, it's a small stadium and that's about 20%

KP_fan wrote:Brown & seemingly Barren, The Dharamshala Pitch
5,000 English separators expected, it's a small stadium and that's about 20%

So the snow-making machine is behind the sight screen I take it.

Or just out of shot?

Lovely line in the Grauniad online about the differing weather forecasts for the upcoming Dharamsala Test -
''forecasts, like prices in the local shops, appear a starting point for negotiation''.

The choice for England in this test is two seamers or three, according to The Telegraph. Anderson and Wood are expected to be the two certainties, with Atkinson possibly getting a debut at the expense of Hartley or Bashir. I'd like to see Atkinson get a test instead of Wood, to be honest.

Bairstow will be getting to 100 caps in this test. Very fortunate to get 100 caps in my view. He will be joined by Ashwin, Southee and Williamson, who will all be reaching 100 caps this week. No such fortune about those three, all fantastic players. It will mean 80 players in test history have played 100 tests or more.

Looking ahead to the summer, one interesting thing I noticed about England's test fixtures is that they're playing three tests back to back. This is unusual. Normally it's two tests back to back, then a third after a little break of a week or just over.

But this summer England's tests against the West Indies are on the 10th, 18th and 26th of July; the ones against Sri Lanka on the 21st and 29th of August, plus the 6th of September. Just a few days rest between each game.

Could this be the future of the test game? Normally it's two test series across the rest of the world, and a reason for that is the tight calendar space. But if teams can play three tests back to back, could we see more three test series going forward?

I hope it does snow. I can't get excited for this dead rubber at all so let's have something different. Msp can build a snowman and see if it has a better defensive technique than Ollie Pope

Pal Joey wrote:

KP_fan wrote:Brown & seemingly Barren, The Dharamshala Pitch
5,000 English separators expected, it's a small stadium and that's about 20%

So the snow-making machine is behind the sight screen I take it.

Or just out of shot?

Nice Profile Picture PJ

KP_fan wrote:

Pal Joey wrote:

KP_fan wrote:Brown & seemingly Barren, The Dharamshala Pitch
5,000 English separators expected, it's a small stadium and that's about 20%

So the snow-making machine is behind the sight screen I take it.

Or just out of shot?

Nice Profile Picture PJ

You are now a brand name, KPF.

Yeah, that looks good... I think Julius does them.

Pal Joey wrote:

KP_fan wrote:

Pal Joey wrote:

KP_fan wrote:Brown & seemingly Barren, The Dharamshala Pitch
5,000 English separators expected, it's a small stadium and that's about 20%

So the snow-making machine is behind the sight screen I take it.

Or just out of shot?

Nice Profile Picture PJ

You are now a brand name, KPF.

I got the idea from you

VTR wrote:I hope it does snow. I can't get excited for this dead rubber at all so let's have something different. Msp can build a snowman and see if it has a better defensive technique than Ollie Pope

Shouldn't be much of a challenge for the snowman as the benchmark isn't great! So not much to look forward to in terms of excitement there!

England has named their team for the fifth test against India in Dharamshala starting tomorrow; Mark Wood replaces Ollie Robinson.

Good that they kept Anderson, he will have a few months of rest after this and is still the best seamer given opposition is India and some overhead help thru the game + possibly damp pitch for a few hours if Eng has to bowl first

The slowness of the pitch itself makes it more of the same served in previous games....and warrants 2 spinners + Root

England might still change Bashir late in the day. Apparently he's slightly ill and also has a split finger. No surprise Robinson also has the same illness!

Apparently it's a good batting wicket, not much grass, and the surface is the same as the one where, in a recent Ranji game, all 36 wickets fell to seam.

I would have liked to have seen Atkinson get a test, but oh well. Good to see Robinson dropped.

They can't think much of Atkinson to not give him a game in the dead rubber, especially when it seems pointless to play Mark Wood in such a game. The result really doesn't matter, so there has to be something they don't like

I think England should just pick their best team honestly. May not mean much in the long term but 4-1 feels like a harsh reflection of the series. Then take stock after the series

GSC wrote:I think England should just pick their best team honestly. May not mean much in the long term but 4-1 feels like a harsh reflection of the series. Then take stock after the series

They've also pretty consistently said this is their philosophy to picking teams too. Just going with what they see is the best XI

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

GSC wrote:I think England should just pick their best team honestly. May not mean much in the long term but 4-1 feels like a harsh reflection of the series. Then take stock after the series

They've also pretty consistently said this is their philosophy to picking teams too. Just going with what they see is the best XI

Agree with this. Not a fan of just "giving " caps to players because a series is lost. Nothing against Atkinson - I'd not have minded playing him if they'd needed to rest Jimmy , for instance ; but Wood was the logical man to come back for Robinson. Of course , Atkinson still may get a shot if Bashir doesn't get over his bug.
I am also little concerned reading the comments re Bashir's cut finger : a similar problem that afflicted Moeen in the first Ashes Test last year was arguably a significant factor in the narrow loss. Hopefully the young fellow heals faster !

Probably not going to see much of this match being away for a few days and not sure whether any stream will be accessible ; but hope they can get a win to give them some consolation for failing to follow up their chances at important moments in some of those defeats.

I'd go for Atkinson as much for the reason that Wood isn't in good form, and hasn't been all winter. Wood's played two tests in this series and bowled three wicketless innings. Just one decent spell in Rajkot is all he's done on this tour.

4-1 India would be a fair reflection, I'd say.

alfie wrote:  Of course , Atkinson still may get a shot if Bashir doesn't get over his bug.
I am also little concerned reading the comments re Bashir's cut finger : a similar problem that afflicted Moeen in the first Ashes Test last year was arguably a significant factor in the narrow loss. Hopefully the young fellow heals faster !

 

Extracted Bashir's Over's bowled:

FC Career(incl 2 tests) = 326 overs bowled
of which
This series 123 overs
of which
T2= 53 overs
T4 = 70 overs  

Balance 203 overs in 6 FC games before this series

that's ~35% of his total FC career before this series worth of overs in last test match alone

It takes getting used to in FC to bowl so many overs , else shoulder/ back stiffens and fingers get bruised and bleed.
I think he will play but may not be as potent with ripping the ball.

Duty281 wrote:I'd go for Atkinson as much for the reason that Wood isn't in good form, and hasn't been all winter. Wood's played two tests in this series and bowled three wicketless innings. Just one decent spell in Rajkot is all he's done on this tour.

4-1 India would be a fair reflection, I'd say.

That's what I was thinking, and the fact he's made of glass. Doesn't seem worth the risk in the pursuit of a 3-2 defeat!

India's last selection call appears to be a choice between Deep and Yadav. Two seamers or three. Siraj seems set to play, and Bumrah is back, so no taking the foot off the gas in this one. No Rahul again, and Patidar is retained despite his struggles.

It will be Ashwin's 100th test. Jadeja is 8 away from 300 wickets, and Jaiswal has one last chance to become only the second man in test history to record three double centuries in a single test series.

England's team we know, unless Bashir's illness/finger rules him out. In that scenario, England would have to call upon Atkinson or Lawrence, either option would alter the side's balance somewhat. No further word on Rehan, who left quite swiftly just before test four.

Anderson is looking to get to 700 wickets in this test. Bairstow is going to be the 17th English player to reach 100 tests in this game, and also (somewhat freakishly) 26 runs in this test will bring him up to 6,000 test runs...he will be the 17th English player to reach such a milestone if it happens.

It's apparently an excellent batting track so we should see lots of runs. India big favourites, but let's see if England can take the positives from the fourth test into this one.

As for India selections, regardless of 2 or 3 quicks, think Akash should play ahead of Siraj. Considering Siraj has been playing all formats without a lot of rest in between and he already didn't look at his best in the last test. And that Akash has had a very fine debut, he has been the quick to impress the most on debut after Siraj's own... So someone worth investing in, and more game opportunity can do him and India a lot of good.
The other change they should make but likely won't is to bring in Devdutt Padikkal in place of Rajat Patidar.

msp83 wrote:As for India selections, regardless of 2 or 3 quicks, think Akash should play ahead of Siraj. Considering Siraj has been playing all formats without a lot of rest in between and he already didn't look at his best in the last test. And that Akash has had a very fine debut, he has been the quick to impress the most on debut after Siraj's own... So someone worth investing in, and more game opportunity can do him and India a lot of good.
The other change they should make but likely won't is to bring in Devdutt Padikkal in place of Rajat Patidar.

There is no way this is a 3 seamer pitch
It's only 2 seamers and 90% chance Akashdeep over Siraj

VTR wrote:

Duty281 wrote:I'd go for Atkinson as much for the reason that Wood isn't in good form, and hasn't been all winter. Wood's played two tests in this series and bowled three wicketless innings. Just one decent spell in Rajkot is all he's done on this tour.

4-1 India would be a fair reflection, I'd say.

That's what I was thinking, and the fact he's made of glass. Doesn't seem worth the risk in the pursuit of a 3-2 defeat!

Back when they used to rest players for Tests, we all wanted the best XI picked!

Wood's already out the IPL and realistically may not need to play that much cricket this calendar year after this series. There's the T20 World Cup in June to get him firing at full pace for. Currently they've got the Pakistan series in May but other warmups will be added. Personally, I'd rather see Wood play here and the World T20, then potentially miss home Tests as required. This World T20 may well be his last white ball internationals too.

I think the performances here have generally been more competitive than a 4-1 score line too. Which will inevitably then be compared to the previous series in India. Which was a shambles in comparison. They couldn't even get the selection of their XIs remotely right there. It was the tour where they repeatedly seemed to pick a team for the previous Tests pitch. Picking the sides should have been easier the previous time around as well given they had a genuine all-rounder in Stokes and Jof available.

It may be 3-1 but the Tests have been a lot more competitive and therefore a lot more enjoyable this time around as far as I'm concerned. Going in I was fully expecting 5-0. If England won a Tests I was expecting to only be if a lottery pitch was rolled out and they got lucky. I was concerned we were seeing the start of a horror tour after the beginning of T1, the huge first innings deficit and seeing Hartley bowl in that first innings. It hasn't been that though. They were well in T4 and in touch during T2.

The 2021 series I mainly remember as England being woeful tactically, playing spin and bowling it. Rohit and Pant both played memorable innings. Axar was a new curiosity then and I always find Ashwin fascinating to watch. Predominantly I just remember England looking lost though. Whereas this tour, I think I'll predominantly remember Jaiswal looking untouchable and Bumrah bowling as well as I've ever seen a seamer in these conditions. I can except a team losing to a better side if they've swung some punches along the way.

England win the toss and bat.

KP_fan and msp will be delighted to see India have brought in Padikkal for Patidar , along with Bumrah slotting back in - though it is Akash Deep who makes way , rather than Siraj.

Bashir must have recovered from his "bug" ; though Robinson is reported as not at the ground. Still got Atkinson and Lawrence as potential sub fielders so we probably won't see a return to the field for Paul Collingwood , alas

Update : Patidar is officially out "injured" , not dropped.

And the sun is out ... no snow around

And no grass on the pitch...few cracks which will presumably play a part later in the match ; but looks a good batting track , and nothing in the first couple of overs suggests otherwise - though Siraj is getting some swing. Cool conditions (6 degrees !) ; batsmen in sweaters. One trademark nice drive from Crawley already , plus a play and miss...

7/0

Took Bumrah that first over to get his line right - but this second over to Duckett has been terrific ! Very fortunate not to get an edge to one ball in particular...

Definitely swing on offer - at least for now.

Hmm. Maybe just a bit more in the track for the pacers as Bumrah bowls an awesome over to Crawley...who somehow survives , even getting a rather streaky boundary. One ball jagged back fiercely off the pitch and only just missed top of middle. Arguably skill of bowler rather than pitch demons. Eight overs done and hasn't been easy for the bats at all.
22/0

There has been some seam movement and also swing.
Pitch is slow, bounce low and outfield sluggish. Eng openers have been a bit lucky, Crawley especially , played across the line with leading edges and a clean bowled missed by an inch.

India drop Patidar finally.and for good I am sure and I hope a more exciting Paddikal debuts
Akashdeep unlucky to miss out

alfie wrote:Took Bumrah that first over to get his line right - but this second over to Duckett has been terrific !  Very fortunate not to get an edge to one ball in particular...

Definitely swing on offer  - at least for now.

Good morning Alfie
Yes a bit of help , enuf for Anderson to work with when his turn comes

Crawley's lucky day continues as ge survives umpires call.by quarter of an inch
Ind should have brought Ashwin from.one end fairly.early.

Crawley survives a very good lbw appeal and Indian review on umpires call. I thought I heard two noises initially but drs showed no bat - just grazing leg stump. Close.

12 overs , all seam. 43/0

Good afternoon. KP_fan...

Has been some excellent bowling in this first hour indeed. England openers could easily have both gone but they've survived - with a bit of good fortune , fair to say - and must also credit their determination not to do anything silly under enormous pressure. They'll be glad to have made it to drinks unscathed. 47/0 off 13.

Another half-century opening partnership for England. That has been a feature of the tour for them... Seems they've at last settled on a decent opening combo after Cook and Strauss...
But the 2 Indian quicks have bowled well, and both openers have been lucky, particularly Crawley. That LBW appeal, did look more out than notout, I am sure Ben Stokes will have something to say on it!
And as KPF said, Ashwin should have been on early, seems there is some moisture assisting some movement, Ashwin can be lethal in such circumstances...

Siraj still on, though Bumrah is done with his first spell and got replaced by Ashwin. Duckett bringing out sweep early, in that first over itself.
There isn't much bounce, and not much carry either. The ball is moving about a bit, but this has the look of very hard work for bowlers. Have a feeling the likes of Oliver Pope and Bairstow would be fancying their chance here, and getting Root out will be very difficult if he still has that commonsense cap on...
Kuldeep and Bumrah, particularly the former will have to produce a special performance... Kuldeep had his test debut here, picking up 4 first innings wickets...

Spin from both ends... Not much life from the pitch for either Ashwin or Kuldeep.

Duckett falls against rhe run of play and throws it away really

Great catch by Gill . Breakthrough at 64/1...

Duckett might be annoyed with himself for that loose shot. They already had 9 from five balls from Kuldeep ...that shot seemed a bit unneccessary. But that's the way he plays , I suppose.

Hi msp...

Not much bounce , as you say. The movement in the air made the first hour tough for the bats ; but it does look a very good pitch ... And potentially a good toss to have won.

Not sure your pal Pope will be ecstatic about facing spin both ends to start his knock ; but not likely to be as tricky as one or two of the other matches - at least over the first few days.

No one has read Kuldeep so far in the series

More drs...no bat...but this one's missing completely. Did think that was an optimistic review ; but they didn't lose one for the earlier call so probably thought it worth the risk. Kuldeep is certainly turning the ball...
75/1

Is this the day that Crawley makes a big score? He looks reasonably untroubled out there.

We don't want a run out , chaps ! That was a messy bit of hesitation/running. If it had been fielded cleanly I reckon it would have likely been curtains for one of them...

Run rate a decent 3.6 . And Crawley goes to another fifty

Had some luck , sure. But always lovely to watch

HI eirebilly...enjoying the cricket ? Bet you are looking forward to Twickenham on Saturday

Oh dear...Ollie Pope what have you done ? Right on lunch and he's missed that and given Jurel the easiest stumping he will ever get...

Was England's session until that. Even now , I think , at 100/2. Good morning for Kuldeep ... And Crawley.

KP_fan wrote:No one has read Kuldeep so far in the series

Pope.comes and Pope.goes running down to and totally failing to read Kuldeep.
On a flat pitch, with a good toss won, that' wicket of last ball makes it an even session.

Ashwin as I have noted earlier is in decline, doesn't get the Big Off break anymore

alfie wrote:HI eirebilly...enjoying the cricket ?  Bet you are looking forward to Twickenham on Saturday

You know I am brother. Hope all good your side

alfie wrote:Hi msp...

Not much bounce , as you say. The movement in the air made the first hour tough for the bats ; but it does look a very good pitch ... And potentially a good toss to have won.

Not sure your pal Pope will be ecstatic about facing spin both ends to start his knock ; but not likely to be as tricky as one or two of the other matches - at least over the first few days.

Hi alfie,
yes, after a tough first hour without success, Kuldeep bringing India back into the game, and yes, Oliver Pope couldn't do it here either. really self-destructed

eirebilly_01 wrote:

alfie wrote:HI eirebilly...enjoying the cricket ?  Bet you are looking forward to Twickenham on Saturday

You know I am brother. Hope all good your side

Yes all good here... though I am unlikely to see much cricket or rugby this weekend : am off tomorrow to the annual Folk Festival in the Western Victorian town once known as Belfast... Will however be drinking plenty of Guinness