Ireland v England - Six Nations Round 4, 9 March 2024

First topic message reminder :

Ireland supremely confident of having any answers to questions that England will pose, according to Bernard Jackman.

Stephen Jones wants lots of bish and bosh and no training.  Stuart Barnes wants Ben Earl in midfield.  Dallaglio wants them to get in some players faces and annoy them a lot.

Farrell doesn't know yet if he'll have Ringrose and Keenan back to consider for squad selection and thus the make up of his bench for 6-2 or 5-3.

Borthwick has two players back for his half-back partnership and the opportunity to continue with Furbank at 15.

No real shots have been fired yet but it's only Monday.

Teams

England
Furbank, Feyi-Waboso, Slade, Lawrence, Freeman, Ford, Mitchell
Genge, George, Cole, Itoje, Martin, Chessum, Underhill, Earl
Dan, Marler, Stuart, Cunningham-South, Dombrandt, Care, Smith, Daly

Ireland
Keenan, Nash, Henshaw, Aki, Lowe, Crowley, Gibson-Park
Porter, Sheehan, Furlong, Beirne, McCarthy, O'Mahony, vd Flier, Doris
Kelleher, Healy, Bealham, Henderson, Conan, Baird, Murray, Frawley

How has Daly been hung out to dry? If he's not in right position to tackle and or missing tackles then it's down to him. Same of course applies to all players.

I was calling for IFW to get a start, let's hope he has a good game. And not just chasing kicks.

At full-back, Borthwick must choose between persevering with the counter-attacking threat of George Furbank or restoring Freddie Steward to provide high-ball security against Ireland’s strong kicking game.

Im a big fan of Furbank...but i think thats unfair on Steward. Steward has been way more involved in the attack...doing a lot of hard carrying and crash ball work.

I think id start Steward for this game. Strong defence...Waboso and Freeman covering any defensive duties...and having Steward really coming in the the mix again crashing and hitting the line with pace...especially if we have Marcus Smith back...with his pass kicks etc.

If that article correct then Ford starts so maybe Marcus on bench so he can cover 10/15 so Steward starts (as he should) then depending on how game goes can always put Smith to 15 later on. I wouldn't be surprised if that is plan.

mountain man wrote:How has Daly been hung out to dry? If he's not in right position to tackle and or missing tackles then it's down to him. Same of course applies to all players.

I was calling for IFW to get a start, let's hope he has a good game. And not just chasing kicks.

In terms of he's getting quite alot of the brunt of criticism whereas a lot of the time its the decisions inside that leave him between a rock and hard place.

Gerry Thornley's rarely wrong prediction for the Irish 23    .

15. Keenan
14. Nash
13. Henshaw
12. Aki
11. Lowe
10. Crowley
9. Gibson-Park

1. Porter
2. Sheehan
3. Furlong
4. McCarthy
5. Beirne
6. O'Mahony
7. Van Der Flier
8. Doris

16. Kelleher
17. Healy
18. Bealham / Jager
19. Ryan
20. Baird
21. Conan
22. Murray
23. Frawley

I'm a fan of the 6-2 split as long as it comes off, could be risky in what will undoubtedly be an immensely physical battle.

England 15 - Ireland 28, no bonus point.

I'll be very happy if Feyi-Waboso is in. He's looked good in his brief cameos, and frankly has nothing to lose and everything to gain against a team like Ireland. At worst he's tested at the top level and finds a few areas of his game to work on (quite right at his age and stage), at best he shows he's got the quality to hurt even the best teams right now.

Agree although what we don't want is an Arundell type game where he's out on wing and hardly gets a pass. I don't think that'll be case and he'll be in off wing looking for ball.
How he copes with Ireland kicking game be key, I suspect Lowe be looking to hoof it towards him.

McCarthy v Martin - Boom!

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mountain man wrote:How has Daly been hung out to dry? If he's not in right position to tackle and or missing tackles then it's down to him. Same of course applies to all players.

I was calling for IFW to get a start, let's hope he has a good game. And not just chasing kicks.

In terms of he's getting quite alot of the brunt of criticism whereas a lot of the time its the decisions inside that leave him between a rock and hard place.

Daly doesn't deserve all of the criticism but he probably does deserve some. Slade has been a bit over-eager in blitzing up (and not making it stick) and that's leaving Daly with some difficult choices, but I think in the system he has to maintain the connection amd rely on the fullback to swing across ahead of trying to cover the wide channels.

Apparently Joe Marler has admitted that as a kid he was an Ireland fan rather than an England fan. Interesting plot twist.

England will be very dangerous and not sure this is the slam dunk procession it is being made out to be. Could be a slog for Ireland albeit Id be reasonably confident of an Ireland win. Like the 6-2 split.

Poorfour wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mountain man wrote:How has Daly been hung out to dry? If he's not in right position to tackle and or missing tackles then it's down to him. Same of course applies to all players.

I was calling for IFW to get a start, let's hope he has a good game. And not just chasing kicks.

In terms of he's getting quite alot of the brunt of criticism whereas a lot of the time its the decisions inside that leave him between a rock and hard place.

Daly doesn't deserve all of the criticism but he probably does deserve some. Slade has been a bit over-eager in blitzing up (and not making it stick) and that's leaving Daly with some difficult choices, but I think in the system he has to maintain the connection amd rely on the fullback to swing across ahead of trying to cover the wide channels.

I don't think either Slade or Daly deserve to keep places. Neither been terrible but that's not really basis for starting an Int rugby match. Going on Scotland game Lawrence deserves to be dropped but he out of those 3 is likely to make a positive difference so Lawrence in for me.

I don't rate Daly enough to be in the starting team, one of the guys that's useful for the 23 shirt. But sometimes you have to bite the bullet and say swapping players constantly in and out,even for better players does more harm than good. Either way I'm expecting the wingers will receive about 2 to 3 touches each from passes.

My problem with Daly is that he doesn't quite have the pace to play wing anymore. I would be interested to see who's quicker in the squad. I see Marcus Smith possibly being quicker over 50m. Maybe not 100m, but how many times do rugby wingers do the full 100?

Someone with the pace of Rio Dyer, Damian Penaud or James Lowe is leaving Daly behind in a foot race.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I don't rate Daly enough to be in the starting team, one of the guys that's useful for the 23 shirt. But sometimes you have to bite the bullet and say swapping players constantly in and out,even for better players does more harm than good. Either way I'm expecting the wingers will receive about 2 to 3 touches each from passes.

You weren't saying that when Malins was in team :

mountain man wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I don't rate Daly enough to be in the starting team, one of the guys that's useful for the 23 shirt. But sometimes you have to bite the bullet and say swapping players constantly in and out,even for better players does more harm than good. Either way I'm expecting the wingers will receive about 2 to 3 touches each from passes.

You weren't saying that when Malins was in team :

Daly and Malins for me are the same issue. Not quite good enough in any position to make the team. Both fairly useful at 23.

Collapse2005 wrote:Apparently Joe Marler has admitted that as a kid he was an Ireland fan rather than an England fan.  

Always consider him one of the more intelligent England players

Given strength in depth England have or should have, all 23 should be good enough to start. If they're not shouldn't be in squad.

Ireland:
15. Hugo Keenan (UCD/Leinster)(38)
14. Calvin Nash (Young Munster/Munster)(4)
13. Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Leinster)(70)
12. Bundee Aki (Galwegians/Connacht)(54)
11. James Lowe (Leinster)(29)
10. Jack Crowley (Cork Constitution/Munster)(12)
9. Jamison Gibson-Park (Leinster)(33)

1. Andrew Porter (UCD/Leinster)(62)
2. Dan Sheehan (Lansdowne/Leinster)(24)
3. Tadhg Furlong (Clontarf/Leinster)(74)
4. Joe McCarthy (Dublin University/Leinster)(8)
5. Tadhg Beirne (Lansdowne/Munster)(48)
6. Peter O’Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster)(captain)(103)
7. Josh van der Flier (UCD/Leinster)(60)
8. Caelan Doris (St Mary’s College/Leinster)(39)

Replacements:

16. Ronan Kelleher (Lansdowne/Leinster)(29)
17. Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)(127)
18. Finlay Bealham (Buccaneers/Connacht)(38)
19. Iain Henderson (Academy/Ulster)(80)
20. Ryan Baird (Dublin University/Leinster)(18)
21. Jack Conan (Old Belvedere/Leinster)(44)
22. Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)(114)
23. Ciaran Frawley (UCD/Leinster)(3)

Ireland 15/23 pick itself really, that's beauty of having such a strong and settled team.

England on other hand been pondering 9/10/12/13 for about 10 years.

Mr Bounce wrote:My problem with Daly is that he doesn't quite have the pace to play wing anymore. I would be interested to see who's quicker in the squad. I see Marcus Smith possibly being quicker over 50m. Maybe not 100m, but how many times do rugby wingers do the full 100?

Someone with the pace of Rio Dyer, Damian Penaud or James Lowe is leaving Daly behind in a foot race.

Smith is reportedly the quickest in the squad over 10m.

Over the summer, Ruck reported the RWC squad's 50m times as:
Steward 6.90
JVP 6.81
Slade 6.69
Porter 6.19
Marchant 6.06 (presumably he's a fan of this site)
May 5.79
Murley 5.74

Over a second's difference is a pretty big spread. Daly was always slower than May, so I would guess that he's probably somewhere between Porter or Slade.

Anyway, squad's up:

Starting

15. George Furbank
14. Immanuel Feyi-Waboso
13. Henry Slade
12. Ollie Lawrence
11. Tommy Freeman
10. George Ford – vice captain
9. Alex Mitchell

1. Ellis Genge – vice captain
2. Jamie George – captain
3. Dan Cole
4. Maro Itoje – vice captain
5. George Martin
6. Ollie Chessum
7. Sam Underhill
8. Ben Earl

Replacements

16. Theo Dan
17. Joe Marler
18. Will Stuart
19. Chandler Cunningham-South
20. Alex Dombrandt
21. Danny Care
22. Marcus Smith
23. Elliot Daly

It looks a bit like at 55 minutes or so Borthwick might throw all 5 Quins on and see what they can do...

Hmm no Steward even on bench. Wonder if we will see Marcus at FB in second half. Martin for Roots with Chessum going to 6.
Dombrandt springs onto bench.

Interesting and slightly scary.

The Irish media seem to believe their teams physicality will, cohesion aside, win the day. However they played a French side missing the size of Willemse and scored from a couple of mauls. The Italians looked clueless when in the Irish 22. The Welsh just looked what they are which is currently callow and inexperienced but their time will come.

Ireland's secret is their lineout, from which they originate a high percentage of scores. Stop that and you stop Ireland scoring from mauls, set moves or grinding phase play in opposition 22's. Easier said than done, but Chessum at six and standing at the front of the lineout makes it look like a focus.

Lineouts generally have become more interesting in this 6N. France don't close the gap and got nowhere near Irish ball. Its been noticable that touch judges are trying to keep hookers static and stop from doing their sideways shimmy before throwing in the ball but even when the ball is clearly not straight, SH refs just ignore it because they consider it to be a restart and not a competition for the ball.
The irish lineout process is very pronounced on their ball. They call numbers early and wait for the opposition to line up. Porter goes first and stands next to his opposite number and then makes a very theatrical sideways pace to accentuate the gap, which I would guess is pure O'Connell. It has all been pretty successful as I read somewhere that Sheehan has only had two incomplete throws out of the last forty.

SH refs also let you seal off ruck ball with impunity and Ireland's best player Gibson Park does the rest with his decision making to apply non stop pressure which tests the skills of the opposition.
NZ beat Ireland in the world cup because of their intensity at the break down, but there is no team in the 6N that can emulate that, so attempting to stop their lineout and subsequent possession is key.

The weather forecast and the NH ref will also play their part on Saturday. As ever it will be interesting to watch.

My pet theory, I have always felt that Ireland and Scotland have a tougher fixture list than Wales because historically they only ever play one of France or England away in a 6N season, which has led to more championships. If Ireland win the championship this year they will have done it the hard way despite the current form of England and France.

My guess is Martin red card in the 36th minute.

Your back 3 looks the most threatening it has in a while, but will they get the ball is the question.
Still think Lawrence at 12 is a waste of his ability..
Chessum at 6 to give you 3 lineout options against Ireland's 4 (5 if you count jvdf).

It's going to be a tight game, that could come down to scrum penalties.
But I think it will be Ireland by 4-8 points.

I am very excited about this game

mountain man wrote:Hmm no Steward even on bench. Wonder if we will see Marcus at FB in second half. Martin for Roots with Chessum going to 6.
Dombrandt springs onto bench.

Interesting and slightly scary.

I think the penny may have dropped for Borthwick on Steward - his one super strength is catching the high ball under pressure.  Other than that his lack of pace, slowness in the turn, one-on-one tackling and kicking all needs to be worked on.

nlpnlp wrote:

mountain man wrote:Hmm no Steward even on bench. Wonder if we will see Marcus at FB in second half. Martin for Roots with Chessum going to 6.
Dombrandt springs onto bench.

Interesting and slightly scary.

I think the penny may have dropped for Borthwick on Steward - his one super strength is catching the high ball under pressure.  Other than that his lack of pace, slowness in the turn, one-on-one tackling and kicking all needs to be worked on.

He would make a great 12, and no-one will change my mind on that. Look at jordi Barrett

mountain man wrote:Hmm no Steward even on bench. Wonder if we will see Marcus at FB in second half. Martin for Roots with Chessum going to 6.
Oh well.

Based on the rest of the bench I'd be very surprised if Smith doesn't play 10 for at least a chunk of the match. Dombrandt coming back into the 23 suggests they're planning for him to run the sort of lines they run at club level, and those rely on his understanding with Smith.

At some point we're likely to see something like 6. CCS, 7. Earl, 8. Dombrandt, 9. Care, 10. Smith, which with Lawrence, Freeman, Furbank and Feyi-Waboso gives a lot of different options to keep the defence guessing. I wouldn't expect it to work perfectly right out of the box, but if we see the Irish defence unable to fully commit because it has to cover multiple targets it will be a positive even if some of the execution needs practice.

Recwatcher16 wrote:The Irish media seem to believe their teams physicality  will, cohesion aside, win the day. However they played a French side missing the size of Willemse and scored from a couple of mauls. The Italians looked clueless when in the Irish 22. The Welsh just looked what they are which is currently callow and inexperienced but their time will come.

Ireland's secret is their lineout, from which they originate a high percentage of scores. Stop that and you stop Ireland scoring from mauls, set moves or grinding phase play in opposition 22's. Easier said than done, but Chessum at six and standing at the front of the lineout makes it look like a focus.

Lineouts generally have become more interesting in this 6N. France don't close the gap and got nowhere near Irish ball. Its been noticable that touch judges are trying to keep hookers static and stop from doing their sideways shimmy before throwing in the ball but even when the ball is clearly not straight, SH refs just ignore it because they consider it to be a restart and not a competition for the ball.
The irish lineout process is very pronounced on their ball. They call numbers early and wait for the opposition to line up. Porter goes first and stands next to his opposite number and then makes a very theatrical sideways pace to accentuate the gap, which I would guess is pure O'Connell. It has all been pretty successful as I read somewhere that Sheehan has only had two incomplete throws out of the last forty.

SH refs also let you seal off ruck ball with impunity and Ireland's best player Gibson Park does the rest with his decision making to apply non stop pressure which tests the skills of the opposition.
NZ beat Ireland in the world cup because of their intensity at the break down, but there is no team in the 6N that can emulate that, so attempting to stop their lineout and subsequent possession is key.

The weather forecast and the NH ref will also play their part on Saturday. As ever it will be interesting to watch.

My pet theory, I have always felt that Ireland and Scotland have a tougher fixture list than Wales because historically they only ever play one of France or England away in a  6N season,  which has led to more championships. If Ireland win the championship this year they will have done it the hard way despite the current form of England and France.

I think Ireland were dominating France physically before Willemse was sent off.

You probably need to do more than stop Ireland's lineout. SA completely dominated Ireland's lineout at the world cup but still lost.

Carpet baboon - I was going to say England playing with 14 for over half the game and only losing by 4-8pts is quite a prediction.  But to be fair, there are a few times in the last 12 months that a red card seems to have fired the England lads up more than anything else they have tried. Maybe they should wave red cards at each other in the changing room before the game...

Poorfour wrote:

mountain man wrote:Hmm no Steward even on bench. Wonder if we will see Marcus at FB in second half. Martin for Roots with Chessum going to 6.
Oh well.

Based on the rest of the bench I'd be very surprised if Smith doesn't play 10 for at least a chunk of the match. Dombrandt coming back into the 23 suggests they're planning for him to run the sort of lines they run at club level, and those rely on his understanding with Smith.

At some point we're likely to see something like 6. CCS, 7. Earl, 8. Dombrandt, 9. Care, 10. Smith, which with Lawrence, Freeman, Furbank and Feyi-Waboso gives a lot of different options to keep the defence guessing. I wouldn't expect it to work perfectly right out of the box, but if we see the Irish defence unable to fully commit because it has to cover multiple targets it will be a positive even if some of the execution needs practice.

Smith at 10 would make sense and where he should play but I was just musing on as no Steward and Bothwick has played him there before. If he did go 15 then cover for Ford be Furbank so unlikely that much of a rejig.
Suspect you are right in getting Quins together.

Guess we'll find out soon enough.

Big wrote:Carpet baboon - I was going to say England playing with 14 for over half the game and only losing by 4-8pts is quite a prediction.  But to be fair, there are a few times in the last 12 months that a red card seems to have fired the England lads up more than anything else they have tried.  Maybe they should wave red cards at each other in the changing room before the game...

If history has taught us anything it's that you English always react to adversity well (.......and sometimes a bit genocidal)

But I hope it stays 15 v 15 for the full 80 and we actually win by 20 points as pi***ng on England's chips at Twickenham is always fun, if only for Stephen Jones' unhinged review in the times the next day

A bench split of 5-3 could mean more attacking intent especially in 2nd half.

Better to die trying.

Obviously Ireland are favourites for this but I suspect that England will give them a run for their money as long as heads don't drop like they did last time out.

i just want to see us error (or as near enough) free for the game. No silly handling errors and unforced turnovers.

be efficient with the ball in hand....doesnt have to be fabulous flair...just use the ball well when we have it.

And no yellow or reds.

Some good players in there. I'm going for a record home defeat of 20 points.

What I have found interesting with England vs Ireland is it's very much like when Wales play England. They ALWAYS raise their game against the opposition.

Even with 14 against 15 when Ewels was given a red, England were giving Ireland a hell of a game for 60 minutes until the tank ran dry (no surprise) and Ireland added 2 more tries.

I am not expecting England to roll over meekly. Could be a good match.

Same last year when Steward was wrongly red carded, England actually had a good game despite it but were always going to lose being down to 14 against such a strong side.

Ireland team named

As expected but Henderson on the bench not Ryan.

I don't think the Ireland lineout is the key situation in this game I think it is the England blitz defence.
Get it right and England can make it tough.
Get it wrong and Ireland will rip them apart.

I expect it to be Ireland's toughest match of the 6Nations but still to come out on top.

Not sure what Steward has done to be omitted from this one. Furbank was pretty poor last time out and Ireland are likely to kick to compete which we know is a Furbank weakness (particularly in comparison to Steward).

I'm not generally a fan of fielding three locks but at a guess we are looking at adding stopping power in defence. Stop Ireland's physical carriers getting over the gain line and then blitz the defence to try and keep them contained. Bold and aggressive strategy, not sure it'll work but it's got to be worth a try.

If Ireland can get the crossfield kicks away there will be space and as mentioned Furbank isn't great in the air so putting them up to compete could definitely be on.

One thing I will say is that Andy Farrell is excellent when talking to the press, and you can see why he gets the best out of players.

It's an underrated part of the work. Getting press and fans on side. That's especially true when you're playing garbage too.

Borthwick in press interviews etc totally uninspiring and it's unfortunate but his accent and tone is pretty dull.
However, all that irrelevant if and it's a big if the coaching and way he conveys message to players is good.

Eddie Jones was always a gift to media with how he spoke etc but it was usually to detriment of team!

I don't care about all that, it's all down to how team plays and results. Obviously so far they've matched media appearances but I'm not convinced there is a connection.

mountain man wrote:Borthwick in press interviews etc totally uninspiring and it's unfortunate but his accent and tone is pretty dull.
However, all that irrelevant if and it's a big if the coaching and way he conveys message to players is good.

Eddie Jones was always a gift to media with how he spoke etc but it was usually to detriment of team!

I don't care about all that, it's all down to how team plays and results. Obviously so far they've matched media appearances but I'm not convinced there is a connection.

We have no idea what hes like behind the scenes....he might put a front on for interviews. Ive never really heard anyone talk about what hes actually like behind the scenes...he might be quite an animated character (i cant see it), but you never know.

SB had his critics as an international player at times (more for his lack of real physicality) ...but what was never questioned was his role as a leader etc...he was mostly described as a great captain etc ...so that wouldnt suggest a dull boring individual.

I can only go on what I see and hear. His accent and tone is dull and monotone and he gives bland answers. Quite possibly on purpose but there it is.
If you read my next sentence it puts it all in context though.

The difference is that Eddie would distract or outright lie about things he didn't want to disclose - Borthwick just doesn't talk about it, and that comes across as dull and uninspiring.

But as more details come out around what he is doing - the fitness strategy for RWC, the kicking strategy for each team, the attacking strategy (which seems to have taken a lot from Nick Evans's "landmark" approach - getting the players to recognise scenarios in real time and have a common sense of how to respond) - it's clearer that he has a plan but it is built up in stages.

The Calcutta Cup was frustrating but even in the stadium my Scottish friends agreed that England failed to win a game they were on top of in most aspects by coughing up too much possession. As the emotions fade, it's clear that for a recently assembled squad they were doing OK on T-CUP, and the failures were more about E-CAT (Executing Correctly After Thinking) - something that is annoying to see but is the thing that will improve the most as the team grows in familiarity with each other and the tactics.

He must be reasonably close to a win percentage as coach to rival his 54% win percentage as captain by now?

The difference is that Eddie would distract or outright lie about things he didn't want to disclose

Jones initially was amusing in press interviews etc but rapidly became annoying and frankly detrimental to England as he would inevitably goad opposition and do their team talk for them.

Anyway, press interviews etc pretty irrelevant end of day.

mountain man wrote:
Anyway, press interviews etc pretty irrelevant end of day.

Their main value is in getting the press onside. It buys coaches a bit of headroom if the press can say "it's not there yet but we can see what he's trying to do" versus "we think he's lost the plot". An engaging coach gets more leeway, as Johnson found to his cost.

Maybe when Marler retires England should just pay him to turn up and do all the press conferences instead of distracting the coach and players with it. I know I'd watch a lot more of them if they did.

Geordie wrote:

mountain man wrote:Borthwick in press interviews etc totally uninspiring and it's unfortunate but his accent and tone is pretty dull.
However, all that irrelevant if and it's a big if the coaching and way he conveys message to players is good.

Eddie Jones was always a gift to media with how he spoke etc but it was usually to detriment of team!

I don't care about all that, it's all down to how team plays and results. Obviously so far they've matched media appearances but I'm not convinced there is a connection.

We have no idea what hes like behind the scenes....he might put a front on for interviews. Ive never really heard anyone talk about what hes actually like behind the scenes...he might be quite an animated character (i cant see it), but you never know.

Payne from the GBR podcast I remember saying Borthwick was the most annoying interviewee you could have because off the record beforehand he was a really great listen. He'd be insightful and sometimes even funny but as soon as the camera was on and it was go time for the interview the shutters were come down and you'd get next to nothing out of him.

When you've got Jasper Weise admitting to having tears in his eyes and other Tigers lads crying when Borthwick announced he was leaving to join England you've got to assume he was pretty good at bringing a team together behind him.

Tears of joy knowing they were shot of him?