Premiership Round 15 - The weather gets nice and the Rugby flows

THE Midlands Derby.  Nothing else matters.

Who: Northampton Saints v Leicester Tigers
Where: Franklins Gardens
When:  Saturday 20th April 2024; 15:05
Tickets: SOLD OUT (especially for our cousins from north of the DMZ)

Referee: Christophe Ridley
Assistant referees: Joe James and Jamie Leahy
No. 4: Peter Allan
TMO: Andrew Jackson

Teams:
 

Northampton Saints		Leicester Tigers
James Ramm	15	Jamie Shillcock
George Hendy	14	Freddie Steward
Tom Litchfield	13	Dan Kelly
Fraser Dingwall	12	Solomone Kata
Tom Seabrook	11	Ollie Hassell-Collins
George Furbank	10	Handré Pollard
Alex Mitchell	9	Jack van Poortvliet
Alex Waller	1	James Cronin
Curtis Langdon	2	Julián Montoya
Elliot Millar Mills	3	Dan Cole
Alex Moon	4	Harry Wells
Temo Maya.	5	Ollie Chessum
Alex Coles	6	Finn Carnduff
Lewis Ludlam(c)	7	Tommy Reffell
Juarno Augustus	8	Jasper Wiese
Replacements:
Robbie Smith	16	Charlie Clare
Tarek Haffar	17	Francois van Wyk
Trevor Davison	18	Will Hurd
Tom Lockett	19	Kyle Hatherell
Sam Graham	20	Olly Cracknell
Tom James	21	Ben Youngs
Fin Smith	22	Phil Cokanasiga
Tommy Freeman	23	Mike Brown

Not available for selection:
Callum Braley, Paul Hill, Rory Hutchinson, Sam Matavesi (Navy), Burger Odendaal and Tom Pearson.

A very inexperienced backline being put out by Saints, especially for the Derby game, even the pack looks not quite the first choice, especially the props.

Mitchell vs JvP will be interesting, especially with Furbank at 10. Furbank and Pollard are two complete opposites so a playmaker that rarely kicks against a kicker that rarely attacks directly through the backs.

Steward on the wing (has Borthwick influencing this), another interesting match, Seabrook is very much in the Sleightholme mould, stockier and powerful rather than long and rangy like Steward. A few bombs to be dropped on Seabrook I expect.

Duty calls for Sam Matavesi, so Robbie Smith will get a run out against the guy he effectively replaced Charlie Clare.

Big backrow for Saints, averaging over 18 stone per man and the locks over 19 stone.

James, Smith and Freeman are not bad replacements to come on when legs start to tire.

When are Leicester going to do the right thing and play Steward at 12????
Anyway I really like.the look of Shillcock. Has Kelly played himself into form yet?

Bath Rugby: 
15 Matt Gallagher, 14 Joe Cokanasiga, 13 Ollie Lawrence, 2 Max Ojomoh, 11 Will Muir, 10 Orlando Bailey, 9 Ben Spencer (c), 1 Beno Obano, 2 Tom Dunn, 3 Will Stuart, 4 Quinn Roux, 5 Charlie Ewels, 6 Ted Hill, 7 Sam Underhill, 8 Alfie Barbeary.

Replacements: 16 Hame Faiva, 17 Thomas du Toit, 18 Archie Griffin, 19 Jacques du Plessis, 20 Josh Bayliss, 21 Louis Schreuder, 22 Will Butt, 23 Miles Reid

Exeter:

15 Josh Hodge 14 Immanuel Feyi-Waboso 13 Henry Slade 12 Ollie Devoto 11 Olly Woodburn 10 Harvey Skinner
9 Tom Cairns 1 Scott Sio 2 Jack Yeandle 3 Ehren Painter 4 Lewis Pearson 5 Dafydd Jenkins (c) 6 Ethan Roots 7 Jacques Vermeulen 8 Greg Fisilau

Replacements:
16 Max Norey 17 Danny Southworth 18 Marcus Street 19 Jack Dunne 20 Christ Tshiunza 21 Stu Townsend 22 Will HaydWood 23 Zack Wimbush


Big game for young Bailey at 10 for Bath and looks like Spencer is the back up fly half with Finn Russell and newly promoted Harris from the academy, both injured.
Bath gave away a lot of soft points against Exeter two weeks ago and for all Exeter's rebuilding there are still a number of hard veterans on that team, including a couple of Bath exiles that know how to get results at home.
The league is tight, second to seventh and Bath still have Saracens, Newcastle and Saints to play. Looking slightly precarious for the playoffs.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:A very inexperienced backline being put out by Saints, especially for the Derby game, even the pack looks  not quite the first choice, especially the props.

Mitchell vs JvP will be interesting, especially with Furbank at 10. Furbank and Pollard are two complete opposites so a playmaker that rarely kicks against a kicker that rarely attacks directly through the backs.

Steward on the wing (has Borthwick influencing this), another interesting match, Seabrook is very much in the Sleightholme mould, stockier and powerful rather than long and rangy like Steward. A few bombs to be dropped on Seabrook I expect.

Duty calls for Sam Matavesi, so Robbie Smith will get a run out against the guy he effectively replaced Charlie Clare.

Big backrow for Saints, averaging over 18 stone per man and the locks over 19 stone.

James, Smith and Freeman are not bad replacements to come on when legs start to tire.

Pollard attacks more than you think. As he's built like a centre (a large one at that) he poses a different running threat to your normal flyhalf as well. Be interesting to see if Furbank is left one on one to make those tackles. Tigers lacking a backs coach still so I don't hold much hope of us using Pollard particularly well.

Unavailable through injury: George Martin, Anthony Watson, Hanro Liebenberg, Joe Heyes, Josh Bassett, Guy Porter, Matt Rogerson, Harry Simmons, Lewis Chessum

We've got a fair few out and four of those can cover wing so that's why Steward is out at 14. Shillcock at 15 does allow a secondary playmaker and kicker which should keep that Saints back three honest in defence.

I'm hoping it's similar to earlier in the season when Tigers beat up Saints up front and managed to grind out a good win.

For Saints clearly not the usual starting back line, but I really like it.  I like seeing Furbank at 10 now and again.  Litchfield at 13 has gobs of potential, is a fairly big unit, and has skills.  Saturday is his 22nd birthday.  So we just know he will either have a great game or go off injured after 10 minutes (preferably the former).  Really need to see what Seabrook can bring to the party.  He hasn't had much game time.  The rest, Hendy, Mitchell, Dinger, and Ramm are all very good (just ask Munster and Bulls).

Neither team is at full strength.  On both sides the players who are out there need to step up.  This the THE Midlands Derby.  Nothing else matters.

Really.

Yes, I'd not write off the Saints backline even rotated as it is they've got momentum and will be bouncing with confidence. Those things really matter.

It's a derby game and all bets are off, I'd go as far as to say in England this is THE DERBY game. Certainly at Prem level anyway. Certainly a baptism of fire for Carnduff on his first Prem start, he's a very highly rated player in the Tigers set up though and it's a great chance for him to set his stall out.

Derby game ???!!
You perhaps haven't been to Kingsholm when Bath pull into town !!
Even the nonchalant Finn Russell picked up on it for his first visit and made a rare comment or two.

Tigers Bath used to be a thing but that was a long time ago when Bath used to win things, which makes me old....

Recwatcher16 wrote:Derby game ???!!
You perhaps haven't been to Kingsholm when Bath pull into town !!
Even the nonchalant Finn Russell picked up on it for his first visit and made a rare comment or two.

Tigers Bath used to be a thing but that was a long time ago when Bath used to win things, which makes me old....

A derby game?
We are not talking about a derby game.

We are talking THE Midlands Derby.

Nothing else matters.

Falcons v Bristol at Bristol

1 Brocklebank
2 Blamire
3 Palframan
4 Cardall
5 De Chaves
6 de Walt
7 Cross
8 Chick

9 Stuart
10 Connon
11 Stephens
12 Penny
13 Spencer
14 Radwan
15 Redshaw

16 Dormer
17 Byrne
18 Bello
19 Kelly
20 Lockwood
21 Max Pepper
22 Jennings
23 Moroni

Interesting article in The Times about Furbank going up against Steward, and they are apparently friends. This is not how THE Midlands Derby should go:

George Furbank ready to put Freddie Steward in shade in latest battle
The Northampton Saints full back faces his friend and Leicester Tigers counterpart – albeit in less familiar positions – having usurped him in the England line-up

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/article/george-furbank-freddie-steward-gallagher-premiership-rdzw7wkcq

Just noticed that Saracens-Gloucester is at the same time as Saints-Tigers. I still don't understand why the PRL has teams playing at the same time. Bad for tv viewing. Super Rugby, for all it gets wrong, figured that out a long time ago.

doctor_grey wrote:Interesting article in The Times about Furbank going up against Steward, and they are apparently friends.  This is not how THE Midlands Derby should go:

George Furbank ready to put Freddie Steward in shade in latest battle
The Northampton Saints full back faces his friend and Leicester Tigers counterpart – albeit in less familiar positions – having usurped him in the England line-up

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/article/george-furbank-freddie-steward-gallagher-premiership-rdzw7wkcq

As I understand it Dingwall, Freeman, Furbank, Steward, JvP and I think Dan Kelly are all friends off the pitch and some of them have holidayed together previously. I'm sure Steward will want to put on a bit of a show today, he got dropped whilst showing some good form and is now covering for injuries. A good showing against the much talked up Saints backline (and justifiably so) will go a way to helping his cause.

Saints carving Tigers up now...

And now Tigers pack starting to fight back

It is finely poised, that was a monstrous carry from Weise.

Kata could be in trouble here...

Reckless play, Tigers up against it now...

Arguably another yellow for collapsing the maul...

That was gorgeous from Smith! They did well to finish it off too. Saints pulling clear, this could get messy...

Saints are a very good side...and boy have they got some quality kids coming through aswell...

Reffell going off for a HIA from which he didn't return killed our ability to target the Saints breakdown. Montoya was to easy to mark and then add in the cards, you can't defend for so long against Saints a man down whilst they are getting quick ball.

I just don't see it with McKellar. He's clearly trying to shift the attacking game plan. There's an obvious desire to move from an over reliance on bosh for getting over the gain line to using structures and phase play. I just don't see it happening though. There's been fleeting moments of the attack being OK. Nowhere near enough if that's the focus of a season though. Meanwhile the basics seem to have got worse. I don't mind the direction he's taken. Given attracting (or keeping) forwards with top end physicality is tough in the Prem currently I actually like a shift away from an over reliance on those individuals. I just don't see anything to suggest Tigers are close to doing it or McKellar close to coaching it though.

Yes, he doesn't have an attack coach because of the bizarre Alan Dickens situation. That's been true for the season though. Maybe shift your plans if the coaching team actually available don't make what you want to do feasible? I'd love Tigers to play like the 2011-2015 All Blacks. The absence of Wayne Smith as backs coach or Dan Carter/Ma'a Nonu/Conrad Smith as a midfield makes it unlikely though. So we don't try to do that. This feels the same. It's not working. Try something else. Not having an attack coach is a harsh hand but playing the hand you're dealt is a massive part of being a head coach. Thus far, McKellar seems poor at it.

How dismal it's been at the start of the season and after the mid-season preseason are huge concerns. I struggle to hang that on much other than coaching. The defensive alignment, handling and execution of kicking strategies at the start of the season were abject. The defence in particular was genuinely Championship level at times. If teams went through about 3 phases they lost all shape. Whilst we've come off a huge break with ample coaching opportunity only to s**t the bed twice against Glaws, nearly lose to Falcons with their make a wish foundation squad budget (sorry GF...), lose to Leinster (expected to be fair), then get clinically put away by Saints 2nd team.

I'm really concerned we're going to have a worse squad for next season too. We need several key signings on top of what's been announced to look like a rounded squad but there's next to nothing rumoured.

I think we've improved over the course of the season. The defence hasn't looked good but stats wise then before today it was the best in the league.

Yes, things looked awful at the start of the season but then again we were missing 13 guys who would all normally be in the first choice 23. We rarely look good in a world cup year (Richards and Loffreda both sacked after world cup affected seasons).

The attack is definitely coming on but as you say the levels of execution was awful. If Shillcock passes to Steward to walk it in instead of going himself then Tigers would have been 17-3 up mid way into the first half. We really were the better side on both sides of the ball for the first 30+ mins. The move away from relying on bosh is exactly correct. It doesn't need to be Baabaas stuff just run some options, tip on and make the opposition guess. It's the basis from what Saints and Leinster do (admittedly the Leinster pack is stacked with carriers as well). Space comes on the back of it.

I have concerns ahead of next season as well. The games we've really struggled have been where we've had no threat at the breakdown. Yes, we could do with another big nasty lump in the forwards and a physical centre/wing in the backs but our lack of threat at the breakdown is massive issue. Unless Ilione develops enough.

Do Bath have the Saracens Accountants....?

Geordie wrote:Do Bath have the Saracens Accountants....?

Don't think so, just good recruitment policy and very few injuries up front (they're all in the backs).

Could have fooled me...

Geordie wrote:Could have fooled me...

Let's see you workings then.

To be fair, they have got an amazing squad. I could be wrong, but I think they may still be benefiting Worcester and Wasps' demises? Will be interesting come renewal time...

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Geordie wrote:Could have fooled me...

Let's see you workings then.

Yeah I can be assed to do that on a sat night with glass of red in hand...


Anyway from the game....Barbeary will travel to NZ if he stays fit...a player who carries like that and is as lethal at the breakdown is great to have...

I wonder if Ojomoh might have an outside chance...

Cumbrian wrote:To be fair, they have got an amazing squad.  I could be wrong, but I think they may still be benefiting Worcester and Wasps' demises?  Will be interesting come renewal time...

Yes, it's going to be tough for them come renewal time. Bath apparently had kept back part of their cap last season because they had injury crisis in previous season and wanted a little bit flexibility. What a stroke of luck it turned out to be.

Geordie wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Geordie wrote:Could have fooled me...

Let's see you workings then.

Yeah I can be assed to do that on a sat night with glass of red in hand...


Anyway from the game....Barbeary will travel to NZ if he stays fit...a player who carries like that and is as lethal at the breakdown is great to have...

I wonder if Ojomoh might have an outside chance...

I like Barbeary he's offers physicality on both sides of the ball and as you say is handy at the breakdown. Feels like he's the type of player Borthwick could work with.

formerly known as Sam wrote:I think we've improved over the course of the season. The defence hasn't looked good but stats wise then before today it was the best in the league.

Yes, things looked awful at the start of the season but then again we were missing 13 guys who would all normally be in the first choice 23.  We rarely look good in a world cup year (Richards and Loffreda both sacked after world cup affected seasons).

The attack is definitely coming on but as you say the levels of execution was awful. If Shillcock passes to Steward to walk it in instead of going himself then Tigers would have been 17-3 up mid way into the first half. We really were the better side on both sides of the ball for the first 30+ mins. The move away from relying on bosh is exactly correct. It doesn't need to be Baabaas stuff just run some options, tip on and make the opposition guess. It's the basis from what Saints and Leinster do (admittedly the Leinster pack is stacked with carriers as well). Space comes on the back of it.

I have concerns ahead of next season as well. The games we've really struggled have been where we've had no threat at the breakdown. Yes, we could do with another big nasty lump in the forwards and a physical centre/wing in the backs but our lack of threat at the breakdown is massive issue. Unless Ilione develops enough.

We knew about the absentees, could recruit around it and had a decent pre-season with the PRC to prepare though. They just looked direly prepared.

1.van Wyk 2.Clare 3.Heyes 4.Wells 5.Henderson 6.Hanro 7.Cracknell 8.Rogerson
9.Powell 10.Atkinson 11.OHC 12.Kelly 13.Porter 14.Bassett 15.Brown

16.Dolly 17.Whitcombe 18.Hurd 19.Williams 20.Hatherell 21.Whiteley 22.Shillcock 23.Cokanasiga

That was R1. That isn't a terrible squad to have at a point when all sides are hit by absences. I just feel it's a group of players who have played below their potential.

It's felt like a transitional season but with a decent and relatively stable squad. Which makes me question why a transitional season was really needed in the first place even with a new coach. Then the frustratingly unnecessary transition doesn't seem to have achieved much. They've tried to shift the attacking game plan but it's hardly an extravagant move as you say and it's been poor. The defensive system is largely the same but hardly improving. We frequently are over reliant on a few ball carriers who can easily be shut down. When Reffell goes off the breakdown presence pretty much evaporates.

Take the last point. Early in the season Emeka Ilione looked like our second best jackal in the back row. Since the Chiefs loss, where many played poorly, Ilione has 4 minutes game time in the Prem.

It increasingly feels like a season unnecessarily sacrificed for development with f**k all development to show for it.

I don't think it's been a season of development. It's been a season of survival.

Ilione looks a little underpowered. Injury and a loan spell at Notts have been part of his development but frankly I'd select him over Cracknell. I suspect McKellar is feeling the pressure. Wants to keep the side as physical as possible, as we move away from the one crash ball attack we've been stuck with all season hopefully it becomes less of a necessity.

Cracknell really hasn't looked the same since that injury layoff. He just isn't having the same impact in contact. Which is a concern.

I hate to say it as he's a stalwart, but Wells has had a poor season too. He's been such a consistent player for Tigers at just doing the basics you want from a lock. This season he's been consistently anonymous for the most part though. The drop off from Chessum, Martin and Henderson to Wells (and Carter and Williams...) has been huge. Preventing that drop from starters to reserves has been his main asset in the past. Basically doing the same thing in Tigers second row that Jackson Wray did for the Sarries back row.

Add in Rogerson not particularly standing out.

I feel like our pack is getting a touch heavy on players who don't have the highest ceilings longer term nor the biggest impact shorter term.

Wonder if Bath would swap that Premiership victory over Exeter for the loss in the Champions Cup.

It would have been interesting to see what they could have done against Toulouse. Then again, maybe a singular focus on the Premiership will help them make a title challenge.

king_carlos wrote:Cracknell really hasn't looked the same since that injury layoff. He just isn't having the same impact in contact. Which is a concern.

I hate to say it as he's a stalwart, but Wells has had a poor season too. He's been such a consistent player for Tigers at just doing the basics you want from a lock. This season he's been consistently anonymous for the most part though. The drop off from Chessum, Martin and Henderson to Wells (and Carter and Williams...) has been huge. Preventing that drop from starters to reserves has been his main asset in the past. Basically doing the same thing in Tigers second row that Jackson Wray did for the Sarries back row.

Add in Rogerson not particularly standing out.

I feel like our pack is getting a touch heavy on players who don't have the highest ceilings longer term nor the biggest impact shorter term.

It almost feels like we're banking on the next generation of forwards coming through to fix our problems. Lewis Chessum and Josh Manz are injured currently but we're seeing Carnduff coming through strongly. We're the other two to make a similar impact then that's three big and mobile forwards to add into the senior squad who would cost less than those they'd be pushing out. Allowing perhaps a quality addition or two summer as several go.

The rumoured 35+12 squad make up maybe hampering us if it is indeed coming in for next season.

Geordie wrote:Do Bath have the Saracens Accountants....?

Ha! Yes Hill, Lawrence and Barbeary have all been good additions but none were thought to be very expensive, and were all grateful for a contract. The SA forwards plus Schreuder have all been value for money. The only players that have cost serious coin have been Russell and Du Toit.
The next round of contracts will be a challenge but then the salary cap is increasing with Spencer, Underhill, Cokanasiga and Ewels probably the most expensive and have all recently re-signed.

The injury stats have been noticeably improved which helps too.
The Bath result yesterday was a pleasant surprise and have played Exeter three times this season, two away scoring 13 tries to 8 and winning two, which is a change from recent seasons. Big game Friday night against Saracens.

I think Saints-Tigers was fairly predictable in that the first half was a less stellar half due to some front line players for both clubs not involved either due to injury or rest rotation.  Saints certainly looked better in the second half and the Kata red card more or less coincided with Saints bench coming on which put Tigers under too much pressure.  Davison, Haffar, Lockett, Fin, and Freeman all coming on added significant punch to the lineup and Saints bench was always going to make a big impact.  

Mitchell was man of the match.  But to me, and many Saints supporters, the key was Dingwall in the middle of almost everything good on both sides of the ball.  He is so critical whether at 12 (this week) or at 13. Other players whom I thought had a really good day are Langdon (again - what an addition), Alex Coles and Alex Moon were very strong, and Ramm at 15 was terrific.  One of the news publications mentioned that when Fin came on at 10 he benefitted from Furbank moving back to 15, an advantage Furbank at 10 didn't have....

Just saw some stats (ESPN) and in the 20 minutes Freeman was credited with 7 tackles.  He also made another one of his usual line breaks to set up a try.  For his cameo he had 4 runs for 78 metres.  

Too many penalties for both teams.

By the way, I think I would be remiss if I didn't tip my hat to Carnduff.  The kid had 14 tackles in a true tough guy performance.  I thought he was more impactful than in a couple of those U20 Six nations matches.  Hopefully he dodges any serious injury, he has so much potential.

I thought Dingwall was underwhelming to be honest. Tigers in the first half regularly got over the gain line through his channel. I think Furbank showed better tackle technique (even missing a few as he was hammered by the big runners) with Dingwall making his tackles but often conceding ground to do so. His stats do look good but for me he would be well down the list for man of the match. Particularly because the Saints attack lacked leadership in the first half, there was limited shape to the attack away from the breakdown that allowed Tigers to hammer Saints physically and use the dual breakdown threat of Reffell and Montoya to cause havoc.

Fin Smith coming on added a huge amount of shape and leadership to Saints. He was very impressive off the bench. A midfield general who can definitely play. Try saving tackle and drop goal.

Langdon was sensational for Saints. Joint highest defenders beaten and he was off the field for the period with Tigers down to 14 and fading badly at the end. Lineout did well under a lot of pressure and scrum was good.

Litchfield showed a couple of nice touches though oddly in the 5m channels as opposed to around the middle of the pitch.

Carnduff looks likely to be the second choice 6 for the rest of the season now. He's a step up on Rogerson and next season with no Weise might see Liebenburg covering 8 more which could give him more starts. Good performance from him. Ollie Chessum deserves a shout out with 18 tackles made and one missed, conceded just one missed. A proper shift.

Guess we forgot tackling practice this week

Gonna be 100 this

Scratch that 150

46-7 half time

We clearly did no defensive work in the last 3 weeks...embarrassing

Well ive switched it off....not watching thay tripe

Aw well I was wrong about the 100...just

Ouch ... I had 31 on Superbru - can't believe I was 40 short ...

Well half the Squads contracts are up in rhe summer and few of those will be getting renewed on that performance...

You just can't defend like that at this level....the first try..Iwan Stephens and Spencer ....pathetic....and they set the tone for the rest of the day.

We're not fit to be in the league.

Saying that, it is hard to watch the excellent prospect we produce perform for other clubs week after week whilst we have to settle for (not even in some cases) journeymen. I reckon Brantingham, Pepper and Johnson will go on to have really good careers and we'll have hardly seen any benefit from it.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Geordie wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Geordie wrote:Could have fooled me...

Let's see you workings then.

Yeah I can be assed to do that on a sat night with glass of red in hand...


Anyway from the game....Barbeary will travel to NZ if he stays fit...a player who carries like that and is as lethal at the breakdown is great to have...

I wonder if Ojomoh might have an outside chance...

I like Barbeary he's offers physicality on both sides of the ball and as you say is handy at the breakdown. Feels like he's the type of player Borthwick could work with.

In general I agree with you about Barbeary, though I would have preferred he chose to play hooker instead of 8.  His level of strength and physicality would be massive (no pun intended) in the England front row.  However, before he plays for England, I would like to see him get through a full season without a significant injury.