Euro Finals Weekend

First topic message reminder :

Interesting to me is that the four finalists are from four different countries.  So one way or another we have a good weekend, and can satisfy the people who want to support the teams from their nation.  I am off work for the weekend, so looking forward to working in the garden (lugging mulch, cutting some bushes, and having a pint or two) and watching the Rugby.  Weather forecast for here is 86°F (30°C in French) so great day in the garden then relaxing in front of the tv nursing a Boddingtons. And a happy Boddington's to all...

Challenge Cup Teams:

Gloucester:
15 Santi Carreras, 14 Jonny May, 13 Chris Harris, 12 Seb Atkinson, 11 Ollie Thorley, 10 Adam Hastings, 9 Caolan Englefield, 8 Zach Mercer, 7 Lewis Ludlow (captain), 6 Ruan Ackermann, 5 Arthur Clark, 4 Freddie Clarke, 3 Fraser Balmain, 2 Seb Blake, 1 Jamal Ford-Robinson.
Replacements: 16 Santi Socino, 17 Mayco Vivas, 18 Kirill Gotovtsev, 19 Albert Tuisue, 20 Jack Clement, 21 Stephen Varney, 22 Max Llewellyn, 23 Josh Hathaway.

Sharks:
15 Aphelele Fassi, 14 Werner Kok, 13 Ethan Hooker, 12 Francois Venter, 11 Makazole Mapimpi, 10 Siya Masuku, 9 Grant Williams, 8 Phepsi Buthelezi, 7 Vincent Tshituka, 6 James Venter, 5 Gerbrandt Grobler, 4 Eben Etzebeth (captain), 3 Vincent Koch, 2 Bongi Mbonambi, 1 Ox Nche.
Replacements: 16 Fez Mbatha, 17 Ntuthuko Mchunu, 18 Hanro Jacobs, 19 Lappies Labuschagne, 20 Dylan Richardson, 21 Cameron Wright, 22 Curwin Bosch, 23 Eduan Keyter.

Date: Friday, May 24
Venue: Tottenham Hotspur Stadium, London
Kick-off: 20.00 (21.00 SA time; 19.00 GMT)
Expected weather: Sunny intervals and light winds from the South-West. Temperature will be 17°C at kick-off
Referee: Mathieu Raynal (France)
Assistant referees: Andrew Brace (Ireland), Pierre Brousset (France)
TMO: Eric Gauzins (France)

carpet baboon wrote:And I don't think I'm saying anything new but it does need to be mentioned that DuPont is some talent

Who?

Welshmushroom wrote:

Maine man wrote:Was at the game. First of all, great stadium. Secondly, as long as there is a hole in my @r$e, Ross Byrne is not an international fly half. And pretty much all the Leinster fans I was chatting to before the game and during it agreed. The best compliment I heard was that he's a slow Ronan O'Gara.
And thirdly, the ref wasn't great. A bit harsher on Leinster I thought but not the reason for the defeat.

For me the 2 main reasons I can pinpoint that probably cost Leinster was having Byrne at 10 and Ringrose not being available at 13.  What Leinster really could do with is a Fly Half like Richie Mo'unga.  Put someone like that next to Gibson-Park and you really are in business then....

Because they’re both Kiwi’s?

Just watching the final now. Already aware of the outcome. You have to say, Leinster have far surpassed Clermont and become huge chokers. The pressure must be Cullen now. The URC teams have almost caught up to Leinster’s 2nd team. Barrett, Snyman and Tupou coming in could be the difference next season though.

mikey_dragon wrote:Just watching the final now. Already aware of the outcome. You have to say, Leinster have far surpassed Clermont and become huge chokers. The pressure must be Cullen now. The URC teams have almost caught up to Leinster’s 2nd team. Barrett, Snyman and Tupou coming in could be the difference next season though.

Tupou ain't coming, no province is allowed to sign a NIQ prop and quite rightly too. We need to find a suitable alternatives to Furlong and Porter as the workload that has been put on them over the last few years has been ridiculous.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Just watching the final now. Already aware of the outcome. You have to say, Leinster have far surpassed Clermont and become huge chokers. The pressure must be Cullen now. The URC teams have almost caught up to Leinster’s 2nd team. Barrett, Snyman and Tupou coming in could be the difference next season though.

Tupou ain't coming, no province is allowed to sign a NIQ prop and quite rightly too. We need to find a suitable alternatives to Furlong and Porter as the workload that has been put on them over the last few years has been ridiculous.

They were heavily linked to Tupou, didn’t realise it had been ruled out. I don’t think the replacements for Porter and Furlong are quite there yet.

And Jack Willis is a machine. England's loss is definitely Toulouse gain.

On the Byrne thing he was picked for what he does, which is kick well and be a dependable link in the attacking machine, if not a threat on his own. Now this isn't a new thing that's always been his game so it's no suprise that's how he played yesterday.
For me the bigger issue is without ringrose or O'Brien at 13 the 10-12-13 axis lacks a little flair and pace. Henshaw had a great game, but lacks ringrose pace and change of direction. In set plays that's not that much of an issue as we saw henshaw blowing through holes, but come 3rd 4th phase you need a sparkle of something special to break down the very best defence. And Toulouse are up there with the very best in defending.
You can't blame Byrne for being something he is not. If a few passes had stuck in the first half maybe the score would have been different and this wouldn't be a topic being discussed. But they didn't so it's 3 losses in a row (god as an Ulster supporter I would love to have 3 euro final losses in a row. Christ just one would do me at the moment) and questions will be asked about Leinster's mentality.
For me they should have taken the 3 points on offer in the first half.
For me they ain't chokers just yet. To choke implies they froze on the biggest stage, and I think they played well, but they played against a Toulouse team that just played better.

But an absolute classic final game and a brilliant advert for rugby.

To choke implies they froze on the biggest stage, and I think they played well, but they played against a Toulouse team that just played better.

True

carpet baboon wrote:And I don't think I'm saying anything new but it does need to be mentioned that DuPont is some talent

I really think he's the best I've seen play. I've been trying to find a way of quantifying it, but, it's so subjective. I don't think I've ever seen a player influence games so often though.

He does the basics of being a SH as well as anyone else in the position. Then he does everything else as well. His box kicking off his preferred foot is as good as the other standouts like Faf, but he is also ambidextrous. His service and game management is as good as Aaron Smith or JGP. His sniping is the best in the sport. Then there's the extras. He jackals like a flanker. Pulls off obscene tackles. Bumps forwards. Drops back to offer a tactical kicking option as good as any fullback or fly-half. Runs in broken play like a winger. It's obscene.

He made the most turnovers, topped the tackle count and beat the most defenders, whilst also being a SH.

I can't think of another player who's been the best currently playing in so many areas simultaneously.

mikey_dragon wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Just watching the final now. Already aware of the outcome. You have to say, Leinster have far surpassed Clermont and become huge chokers. The pressure must be Cullen now. The URC teams have almost caught up to Leinster’s 2nd team. Barrett, Snyman and Tupou coming in could be the difference next season though.

Tupou ain't coming, no province is allowed to sign a NIQ prop and quite rightly too. We need to find a suitable alternatives to Furlong and Porter as the workload that has been put on them over the last few years has been ridiculous.

They were heavily linked to Tupou, didn’t realise it had been ruled out. I don’t think the replacements for Porter and Furlong are quite there yet.

The reason he has been ruled out now has nothing to do with Leinster not being allowed to sign him. They already made an offer. The actual reason they won't get him is because he is still signed to Australian rugby for next season and he is the one guy they don't want to let go so have rejected all offers including the ones from France.

Basically he is going nowhere.

I think clubs thought because Rebels are in financial trouble and a bunch of their players have already signed for overseas offers they might get him too. But from the news coming out of Australia was that he is actually under contract and the ARU want to move him (if Rebels go under) to another Super rugby franchise instead as they see him as a key player.

Understandable - and makes a change from the amount of players in contract who end up wanting out getting told they actually have to honour one for a change.

TJ wrote:

To choke implies they froze on the biggest stage, and I think they played well, but they played against a Toulouse team that just played better.

True

How can it be a choke when they lost to a better team and took the game to extra time?  This was just two heavyweights going at it.  Nothing wrong with either side.

This tweet has a clip of Ronan O'Gara on Off The Ball. He wonders whether Leinster playing big games at home ends up as a disadvantage when they have one in a neutral venue.

https://x.com/offtheball/status/1794727698461262164

Welshmushroom wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Just watching the final now. Already aware of the outcome. You have to say, Leinster have far surpassed Clermont and become huge chokers. The pressure must be Cullen now. The URC teams have almost caught up to Leinster’s 2nd team. Barrett, Snyman and Tupou coming in could be the difference next season though.

Tupou ain't coming, no province is allowed to sign a NIQ prop and quite rightly too. We need to find a suitable alternatives to Furlong and Porter as the workload that has been put on them over the last few years has been ridiculous.

They were heavily linked to Tupou, didn’t realise it had been ruled out. I don’t think the replacements for Porter and Furlong are quite there yet.

The reason he has been ruled out now has nothing to do with Leinster not being allowed to sign him.  They already made an offer.  The actual reason they won't get him is because he is still signed to Australian rugby for next season and he is the one guy they don't want to let go so have rejected all offers including the ones from France.

Basically he is going nowhere.

It was reported that the provinces are not allowed sign any NIQ props. Leinster may have offered Tupou a deal but the IRFU still has to sanction it, which they won't.

doctor_grey wrote:

TJ wrote:

To choke implies they froze on the biggest stage, and I think they played well, but they played against a Toulouse team that just played better.

True

How can it be a choke when they lost to a better team and took the game to extra time?  This was just two heavyweights going at it.  Nothing wrong with either side.

Because you dominate teams no matter your lineup throughout the season, be one of the favourites for all available silverware and then lose the final (unless KO'd in the semi) - which has been the case for 6 seasons now. Never seen such a dominant team lose so many KO games. That makes them chokers. We all used to say it about Clermont for years but suddenly it's out of fashion. Lighten up, Leinster are my team now as I no longer support Wales. Hopefully we'll win the URC, c'mon Leinster!

mikey_dragon wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

TJ wrote:

To choke implies they froze on the biggest stage, and I think they played well, but they played against a Toulouse team that just played better.

True

How can it be a choke when they lost to a better team and took the game to extra time?  This was just two heavyweights going at it.  Nothing wrong with either side.

Because you dominate teams no matter your lineup throughout the season, be one of the favourites for all available silverware and then lose the final (unless KO'd in the semi) - which has been the case for 6 seasons now. Never seen such a dominant team lose so many KO games. That makes them chokers. We all used to say it about Clermont for years but suddenly it's out of fashion. Lighten up, Leinster are my team now as I no longer support Wales. Hopefully we'll win the URC, c'mon Leinster!

But to choke is to play well below your ability due to the pressure
of the occasion. Which I think we can see they didn't. They played well. But didn't win. Which happens a lot in sport.
Also to say they choked takes away from Toulouse and how well they played, implying that if it wasn't for Leinster choking they wouldn't have won, which again isn't true.

Paper thin margins at this level.
Gutted for Leinster fans.
Ringrose and Sexton playing may have swung it.
Also hard to escape the conclusion that Cullen isn't a pragmatist in terms of taking available points.
Pleased that Blarehorn played well and fully justified his selection.

Start of the season if you had said kinghorn would start the Heineken cup final ahead of Ramos I think everyone would have said you were mad. But he was excellent.
And good to see Brennan there as well. Wonder if a province could tempt him

carpet baboon wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

TJ wrote:

To choke implies they froze on the biggest stage, and I think they played well, but they played against a Toulouse team that just played better.

True

How can it be a choke when they lost to a better team and took the game to extra time?  This was just two heavyweights going at it.  Nothing wrong with either side.

Because you dominate teams no matter your lineup throughout the season, be one of the favourites for all available silverware and then lose the final (unless KO'd in the semi) - which has been the case for 6 seasons now. Never seen such a dominant team lose so many KO games. That makes them chokers. We all used to say it about Clermont for years but suddenly it's out of fashion. Lighten up, Leinster are my team now as I no longer support Wales. Hopefully we'll win the URC, c'mon Leinster!

But to choke is to play well below your ability due to the pressure
of the occasion. Which I think we can see they didn't. They played well. But didn't win. Which happens a lot in sport.
Also to say they choked takes away from Toulouse and how well they played, implying that if it wasn't for Leinster choking they wouldn't have won, which again isn't true.

That I can appreciate as Leinster were good in the final, but it's 6 seasons now. As I said, that kind of dominance to only lose those specific KO games is pretty much a choke. As a Leinster fan, it's really disappointing but looking at the bigger picture we're still doing well and could go on to lift the URC trophy. If we don't, I certainly hope Munster don't take it...

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Just watching the final now. Already aware of the outcome. You have to say, Leinster have far surpassed Clermont and become huge chokers. The pressure must be Cullen now. The URC teams have almost caught up to Leinster’s 2nd team. Barrett, Snyman and Tupou coming in could be the difference next season though.

Tupou ain't coming, no province is allowed to sign a NIQ prop and quite rightly too. We need to find a suitable alternatives to Furlong and Porter as the workload that has been put on them over the last few years has been ridiculous.

Well if Ulster aren't allowed to sign any NIQ prop they will almost certainly not be able to fulfil their fixtures next year.
At TH we have the injury prone Moore, O'Toole who is called up regularly by Ireland and a promising young academy player - Wilson.
There is nothing after that.

LH is not great either - Warwick, O'Sullivan, Reid and a bunch of untried Academy players

In addition it should be noted Ulster have:
1 NIQ
0 Residency Qualified players
0 Player qualifying through Residence

No other Province comes close to that.
Some commonsense needs to be applied

geoff999rugby wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Just watching the final now. Already aware of the outcome. You have to say, Leinster have far surpassed Clermont and become huge chokers. The pressure must be Cullen now. The URC teams have almost caught up to Leinster’s 2nd team. Barrett, Snyman and Tupou coming in could be the difference next season though.

Tupou ain't coming, no province is allowed to sign a NIQ prop and quite rightly too. We need to find a suitable alternatives to Furlong and Porter as the workload that has been put on them over the last few years has been ridiculous.

Well if Ulster aren't allowed to sign any NIQ prop they will almost certainly not be able to fulfil their fixtures next year.
At TH we have the injury prone Moore, O'Toole who is called up regularly by Ireland and a promising young academy player - Wilson.
There is nothing after that.

LH is not great either - Warwick, O'Sullivan, Reid and a bunch of untried Academy players

In addition it should be noted Ulster have:
1 NIQ
0 Residency Qualified players
0 Player qualifying through Residence

No other Province comes close to that.
Some commonsense needs to be applied

With Leinster in advanced talks with Rabah Slimani it really makes a mockery of the unbendable rules we've had to adhere to. We'll definately not be allowed a NIQ prop now that the IRFU's golden child is getting one.

Connacht also have permission to sign a NIQ OH if a Leinster one won't move over.

Kingshu wrote:Connacht also have permission to sign a NIQ OH if a Leinster one won't move over.

Now that they've found Ulster and IQ one over in New Zealand though. There were rumours of Ulster shopping around NIQ flyhalfs before they managed to acquire that one from the 'canes.

The difference is the Ulster fly half is IQ.

I repeat either we get, at least 1 Prop before the start of the season or will require an Emergency cover player.
why not recognise this now and have someone at the start.

How many NIQ and Residence Qualified player do Leinster have now?
NIQ - Snyman, Slimani, Barrett, Ngatai (is he staying)
Residency - Gibson-Park, Lowe

Ulster by contrast have Kok

Leinster obviously produce sheds load more top IQ player than any other Province but they
get a lot of help from players joining with no Irish connections

Think what the team would be like if Ulster had the players with Leinster listed above?

geoff999rugby wrote:The difference is the Ulster fly half is IQ.

I repeat either we get, at least 1 Prop before the start of the season or will require an Emergency cover player.
why not recognise this now and have someone at the start.

How many NIQ and Residence Qualified player do Leinster have now?
NIQ - Snyman, Slimani, Barrett, Ngatai (is he staying)
Residency - Gibson-Park, Lowe

Ulster by contrast have Kok

Leinster obviously produce sheds load more top IQ player than any other Province but they
get a lot of help from players joining with no Irish connections

Think what the team would be like if Ulster had the players with Leinster listed above?

Ngatai is leaving by all accounts. Also Barrett is only here for 6 months (I really don't like these short term deals) and the TH thing is only rumours at this stage, I'd imagine Slimani will get a multi year offer from another French team.

geoff999rugby wrote:The difference is the Ulster fly half is IQ.

I repeat either we get, at least 1 Prop before the start of the season or will require an Emergency cover player.
why not recognise this now and have someone at the start.

Who says you won't. Pre season hasn't started yet. Flyhalf would have been the priority and now you've not had to use a NIQ spot then you might have options.

I cannot fathom why Leinster as a whole or one of their glut of 10s are so unwilling to move to Connacht. If you're a professional rugby player surely you want to be doing what that entails, playing rugby.
Frawley claims he want's to play at 10 but he surely knows he's a utility player at Leinster and Ireland.
Prendergast is seen as the future. If he is they are going to have to pull the trigger at some stage soon and have him more often than not starting in the 10 shirt. If he's not good enough to see more game time next season they're leaving it a bit late.
The Byrnes have been doing it for them but have reached their respective ceilings which aren't high enough. Harry in particular has failed to fulfil the promise shown earlier in his career.

Anyway, surely they could look at sending Harry Byrne or Frawley to work as a starting 10 for Connacht leaving Prendergast to fight it out with Ross for the starting berth. Whatever the reasons there's simply no reason to have 4 decent 10s in a squad while the Connacht fall short and Ulster have to take a gamble on a fairly unproven 10 from NZ.

The mind boggles.

Dear Mr Humphreys, sort it out.

Pete330v2 wrote:I cannot fathom why Leinster as a whole or one of their glut of 10s are so unwilling to move to Connacht. If you're a professional rugby player surely you want to be doing what that entails, playing rugby.
Frawley claims he want's to play at 10 but he surely knows he's a utility player at Leinster and Ireland.
Prendergast is seen as the future. If he is they are going to have to pull the trigger at some stage soon and have him more often than not starting in the 10 shirt. If he's not good enough to see more game time next season they're leaving it a bit late.
The Byrnes have been doing it for them but have reached their respective ceilings which aren't high enough. Harry in particular has failed to fulfil the promise shown earlier in his career.

Anyway, surely they could look at sending Harry Byrne or Frawley to work as a starting 10 for Connacht leaving Prendergast to fight it out with Ross for the starting berth. Whatever the reasons there's simply no reason to have 4 decent 10s in a squad while the Connacht fall short and Ulster have to take a gamble on a fairly unproven 10 from NZ.

The mind boggles.

Dear Mr Humphreys, sort it out.

Doesn't make sense. The Ulster acquisition does work for the IRFU as it brings in another young talented playmaker into Ireland who can also play 15 (might be useful for Ireland that aspect).

Leaving Carty as the only fit 10 at Connacht is very odd. It's crying out for a Pendergast loan for the season. Perhaps a caveat to the deal guaranteeing him a certain number of starts.

Still a big discrepency  
Leinster 2 1/2 + 2
Ulster 1+ 0

Why do people keeping banging  on about Crawley as a 10

He has started 4 games at 10 in the last 4 years and 8 in the 3 years before that.
He is 26 years of old.
Either he starts at 10 next year or its too late.
(I think he is a very good player by the way)

If I was Cullen I'd start with Frawley have Ross Bryne as backup in the big games and Prendergast as the backup in the lesser games.
Not going well slot Ross Bryne in as the starter in the big games, Prendergast against the weaker teams.
Send Harry Bryne to Connacht
Keep Tector in the Academy

I reckon after the last 6N that the IRFU have Frawley firmly in the utility back camp. He came in useful when there were injuries. The problem for Frawley from an Ireland point of view is that selection for squads could be the best he can hope for with the IRFU calling those shots. He is the one that is always banging on about wanting to play 10 yet is happy to remain at Leinster in a utility role. Head scratcher!

I know it's not a fair comparison but look at Ntamack who started his first senior international game at 19. Prendergast, if he's seen as the next big thing really needs to kick on a bit with Leinster instead of being shuffled off to Connacht IMO. He's either good enough or not and from within Leinster they're saying he is. What's keeping them then, shed the cotton wool and give him the starting shirt next season. If he can't oust the Byrnes perhaps he's not all that.

Pete330v2 wrote:I reckon after the last 6N that the IRFU have Frawley firmly in the utility back camp. He came in useful when there were injuries. The problem for Frawley from an Ireland point of view is that selection for squads could be the best he can hope for with the IRFU calling those shots. He is the one that is always banging on about wanting to play 10 yet is happy to remain at Leinster in a utility role. Head scratcher!

I know it's not a fair comparison but look at Ntamack who started his first senior international game at 19. Prendergast, if he's seen as the next big thing really needs to kick on a bit with Leinster instead of being shuffled off to Connacht IMO. He's either good enough or not and from within Leinster they're saying he is. What's keeping them then, shed the cotton wool and give him the starting shirt next season. If he can't oust the Byrnes perhaps he's not all that.

Prendergast has played 15 times this season and has more minutes than anyone from the u20s the year above him, let alone his own year. Comparisons to the likes of Ntamack are useless, everyone develops differently and Ntamack was a big lad for his age. Prendergast'S slight frame means he's currently not ready to play week in week out.

Pendergast wont be going on loan to Connacht either player or Leinster declined, must be in plans more for next season. Although just after Harry Byrnes contact extension was announced (probably signed months before) he was told they are open to him leaving. So think Harry Byrne may well end up in Connacht after being effectively told he's not in Leinsters future plans. Looks like they are going with Ross and Prendergast next season.

Frawley may cover 10 from the bench but he must have given up at being an outhalf and happy with being a utility player. He hasn't managed to push past either Byrne (and one has been told can move on) and Prendergast and Tector would be next taxis off the rank. When Ulster needed an OH for next season that was his chance either move to Ulster and be an OH or stay with Leinster and be a utility back, he chose to be a Utility back and the opportunity at Ulster appears to be closed. If Morgan is poor it may reopen but thats a big IF. He'll also be a year older and may not be worth investing in at OH as the potential will have gone. Frawley for me has made his bed.

I wonder if Morgan proves semi decent will he win a cap early to keep him in Ireland, and prevent another Frisch? I can certainly see him being called into training camp as a young player for the next 6 nations.

I'd have thought it depends on who else Morgan qualifies for. If it's only New Zealand then Ireland are fairly safe. The Kiwi's aren't going to buy him out of contract ala Frisch so there's no the same rush. He was highly rated in NZ though, they don't necessarily hand out opportunities to young playmakers it's normally a case of paying your dues. See how he fares with Ulster first.

If Harry Byrne is being pushed out it's slightly odd as he's preferred by Ireland to his older brother but not at club level. Connacht if he fancies a tilt at the Irish squad again but he could make very good money over in France.