England vs South Africa 16th November

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England

15. Freddie Steward (Leicester Tigers, 34 caps)
14. Tommy Freeman (Northampton Saints, 13 caps)
13. Ollie Lawrence (Bath Rugby, 29 caps)
12. Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 67 caps)
11. Ollie Sleightholme (Northampton Saints, 3 caps)
10. Marcus Smith (Harlequins, 37 caps)
9. Jack van Poortvliet (Leicester Tigers, 14 caps)
1. Ellis Genge (Bristol Bears, 64 caps) – vice-captain
2. Jamie George (Saracens, 95 caps) – captain
3. Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 43 caps)
4. Maro Itoje (Saracens, 86 caps) – vice-captain
5. George Martin (Leicester Tigers, 17 caps)
6. Chandler Cunningham-South (Harlequins, 9 caps)
7. Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 38 caps)
8. Ben Earl (Saracens, 35 caps) – vice-captain

Replacements: 16. Luke Cowan-Dickie (Sale Sharks, 42 caps) 17. Fin Baxter (Harlequins, 4 caps) 18. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 117 caps) 19. Nick Isiekwe (Saracens, 13 caps) 20. Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins, 19 caps) 21. Harry Randall (Bristol Bears, 9 caps) 22. George Ford (Sale Sharks, 98 caps) – vice captain 23. Tom Roebuck (Sale Sharks, 1 cap)


South Africa

15 – Aphelele Fassi (Hollywoodbets Sharks) – 9 caps, 30 points (6t)
14 – Cheslin Kolbe (Suntory Sungoliath) – 38 caps, 101 points (16t, 3c, 5p)
13 – Jesse Kriel (Canon Eagles) – 77 caps, 90 points (18t)
12 – Damian de Allende (Wild Knights) – 85 caps, 55 points (11t)
11 – Kurt-Lee Arendse (Vodacom Bulls) – 22 caps, 85 points (17t)
10 – Manie Libbok (DHL Stormers) – 18 caps, 94 pts (1t, 28c, 11p)
9 – Grant Williams (Hollywoodbets Sharks) – 16 caps, 15 points (3t)

8 – Jasper Wiese (Urayasu D-Rocks) – 32 caps, 10 points (2t)
7 – Pieter-Steph du Toit (Toyota Verblitz) – 85 caps, 55 points (11t)
6 – Siya Kolisi (captain, Hollywoodbets Sharks) – 90 caps, 60 points (12t)
5 – RG Snyman (Leinster) – 38 caps, 10 points (2t)
4 – Eben Etzebeth (Hollywoodbets Sharks) – 129 caps, 30 points (6t)
3 – Wilco Louw (Vodacom Bulls) – 14 caps, 0 points
2 – Bongi Mbonambi (Hollywoodbets Sharks) – 76 caps, 75 points (15t)
1 – Ox Nche (Hollywoodbets Sharks) – 38 caps, 0 points

Replacements:

16 – Malcolm Marx (Kubota Spears) – 74 caps, 105 points (21t)
17 – Gerhard Steenekamp (Vodacom Bulls) – 9 caps, 0 points
18 – Vincent Koch (Hollywoodbets Sharks) – 59 caps, 0 points
19 – Elrigh Louw (Vodacom Bulls) – 11 caps, 0 points
20 – Kwagga Smith (Shizuoka Blue Revs) – 50 caps, 45 points (9t)
21 – Cobus Reinach (Montpellier) – 37 caps, 70 pts (14t)
22 – Handre Pollard (Leicester Tigers) – 78 caps, 767 points (7t, 108c, 167p, 5dg)
23 – Lukhanyo Am (Hollywoodbets Sharks) – 41 caps, 35 pts (7t)

Another frustrating one. England had chances to win it, but again came up short in the crucial moments.

Mentally, a very weak team. Belief, for whatever reason, is lacking. And so's the defence...

South Africa won the game at the breakdown.

Japan is must win, and they really should win, or Borthwick's reign will be over.

JvP pretty poor tbh. Just not good enough.
How England are missing Mitchell.
Cole yet again a passenger when he gets on. As is Isiekwe and Dombrandt.

Last three games - should have won 2 and had a chance in 1 but ended up with none ...

England will be a lot better when Mitchell returns. JVP very poor. Underhill put in a very good case for himself, after not even making the bench in earlier games. Steward had a very mixed showing. Slade still isn't the answer at 12. Sleightholme advanced himself, but Genge didn't and really struggled at scrum time. George looks increasingly like a player who only starts because he's captain.

The bench was so lightweight compared to SA. Cole was awful off the bench again.

Heaf wrote:Have some balls ref and give them another card

Itoje should have been carded, piece of sh1t is dirty af.

Englands arrogance cost them, its their own fault

What did Itoje do?

Duty281 wrote:Another frustrating one. England had chances to win it, but again came up short in the crucial moments.

Mentally, a very weak team. Belief, for whatever reason, is lacking. And so's the defence...

South Africa won the game at the breakdown.



Japan is must win, and they really should win, or Borthwick's reign will be over.

He could lose to Madagascar and the RFU wouldn't sack him unfortunately. Worse than the sum of all their parts. Borthwick is the Steve McClaren of England rugby.

Heaf wrote:What did Itoje do?

Two neck rolls and still wasnt carded

As a Glos fan I’m glad us and Newcastle aren’t involved in this as it shows our two clubs aren’t the problem unlike the players from the money grabbing clubs (Harry Randall and Ollie Lawrence etc) and the ones who are only selected due to their clubs being in bed with the RFU (Alex Dombrant and Jamie George for example)

That was a proper test match. The Boks are so good and deep. And had the right game plan to do what they needed to do. Pressure the breakdown and force errors. Easy to type....

Selection is off, connection on the pitch is off, defence is off and leadership is non existent.

protea438 wrote:

Heaf wrote:What did Itoje do?

Two neck rolls and still wasnt carded

I saw the one for the disallowed try and that was nowhere near a yellow, and if there was one that was you can be sure Ben Whitehouse would have jumped on it.

Heaf wrote:

protea438 wrote:

Heaf wrote:What did Itoje do?

Two neck rolls and still wasnt carded

I saw the one for the disallowed try and that was nowhere near a yellow, and if there was one that was you can be sure Ben Whitehouse would have jumped on it.

Ben Whitehouse was looking so hard for an England infringement he missed the south African centre making contact with Slade's head.

Yep I heard them talking about that - was that before or after the neck-roll?

Yoda wrote:

Heaf wrote:

protea438 wrote:

Heaf wrote:What did Itoje do?

Two neck rolls and still wasnt carded

I saw the one for the disallowed try and that was nowhere near a yellow, and if there was one that was you can be sure Ben Whitehouse would have jumped on it.

Ben Whitehouse was looking so hard for an England infringement he missed the south African centre making contact with Slade's head.

As I said it was the Soap Dodgers arrogance that cost them, the Boks were penalised so much in a kickable positions and yet...

protea438 wrote:

Yoda wrote:

Heaf wrote:

protea438 wrote:

Heaf wrote:What did Itoje do?

Two neck rolls and still wasnt carded

I saw the one for the disallowed try and that was nowhere near a yellow, and if there was one that was you can be sure Ben Whitehouse would have jumped on it.

Ben Whitehouse was looking so hard for an England infringement he missed the south African centre making contact with Slade's head.

As I said it was the Soap Dodgers arrogance that cost them, the Boks were penalised so much in a kickable positions and yet...

I always thought had to go onto an England HYS on BBC for that sort of trolling but fair play you've saved me going there

mountain man wrote:

protea438 wrote:

Yoda wrote:

Heaf wrote:

protea438 wrote:

Heaf wrote:What did Itoje do?

Two neck rolls and still wasnt carded

I saw the one for the disallowed try and that was nowhere near a yellow, and if there was one that was you can be sure Ben Whitehouse would have jumped on it.

Ben Whitehouse was looking so hard for an England infringement he missed the south African centre making contact with Slade's head.

As I said it was the Soap Dodgers arrogance that cost them, the Boks were penalised so much in a kickable positions and yet...

I always thought had to go onto an England HYS on BBC for that sort of trolling but fair play you've saved me going there

Just returning serve to the rubbish I see here.

So, for England, who was good?
For me, I have (though none were perfect, mind):
Itoje
Martin
Underhill
Cunningham-South (was better early)
Smith
Sleightholme
maybe Stuart (because I expected him to get squashed and he held his own)

Yeah agree with those. Stuart has really stepped up this autumn in fairness, he's been good every game. Slade had his best game of autumn but he set a low bar.
Marcus again brilliant at times
Steward after a poor start missing tackles for two tries was OK.
Issue as ever is bench. Woefully underpowered
Some will surely be out. Please!

protea438 wrote:

mountain man wrote:

protea438 wrote:

Yoda wrote:

Heaf wrote:

protea438 wrote:

Heaf wrote:What did Itoje do?

Two neck rolls and still wasnt carded

I saw the one for the disallowed try and that was nowhere near a yellow, and if there was one that was you can be sure Ben Whitehouse would have jumped on it.

Ben Whitehouse was looking so hard for an England infringement he missed the south African centre making contact with Slade's head.

As I said it was the Soap Dodgers arrogance that cost them, the Boks were penalised so much in a kickable positions and yet...

I always thought had to go onto an England HYS on BBC for that sort of trolling but fair play you've saved me going there

Just returning serve to the rubbish I see here.

this thread. Cut protea some slack, not many South Africans around here and he starts arguments with them.

Good win for South Africa. England did alright, I felt they were always going to lose to this dominant SA team though. Watched in a pub in London with English and some South Africans, everyone was sound.

You know people are frustrated when they come out with "soap dodgers & arrogance"! The old cliches are indeed quite old.

As for this match I thought SA were tired and missing a few players and clearly wanting to just get the W and then go home. Fair play to them....yet again.

England again had some decent moments, but also so many issues to resolve. The forwards never gave up, but still too many mistakes when it mattered. And how can you ever win a game without a decent 9 and without a midfield? Is there not a 12 somewhere in the world we can persuade to come to sunny England and we need to wrap Mitchell up in cotton wool as all the others are useless. And still just some simple errors like Genge and Earl falling off tackles which I cannot even blame on Borthwick.

Hoping the A's play well tomorrow.

doctor_grey wrote:So, for England, who was good?
For me, I have (though none were perfect, mind):
Itoje
Martin
Underhill
Cunningham-South (was better early)
Smith
Sleightholme
maybe Stuart (because I expected him to get squashed and he held his own)

Steward was Excellent and Poor at different areas of the game...

mountain man wrote:Yeah agree with those. Stuart has really stepped up this autumn in fairness, he's been good every game. Slade had his best game of autumn but he set a low bar.
Marcus again brilliant at times
Steward after a poor start missing tackles for two tries was OK.
Issue as ever is bench. Woefully underpowered
Some will surely be out. Please!

We're playing SA so why pick Dombrandt on the bench instead of Ted Hill!!

We just looked like we're missing some powerhouse props and a proper giant.

SA are lucky they have Etzebeth, Snyman and Du Toit (who is just sheer class) who are huge yet also incredibly mobile. They'll be lucky to replace them with similar levels....

Missing quality 9, Mitchell so much better than others.
And inside centre.
At least Mitchell will return at some stage, when will we ever get a proper int quality 12

mountain man wrote:Missing quality 9, Mitchell so much better than others.
And inside centre.
At least Mitchell will return at some stage, when will we ever get a proper int quality 12

In the year 2525, if man is still alive....

Steward for 12??????
Back row are great individuals but poor as a unit, and I think England would be better off with CCS at 8 chesum/hill at 6 and Underhill at 7. Earl as an impact sub.

If Steward had at least by tried there by Tigers but isn't and anyway, just because a player may have physical attributes to play in a certain position it doesn't mean they'll be any good there.
As and until he actually plays 12 at least for club we can forget it.

I think Earl has been a long way from his 2023/early 24 level. Shame, because at his best he is great. He just isn't at the moment.

I think we'll see a few changes for the Japan game, and some might come in from the A squad. Front row on the bench of Dan, Opoku-Fordjour and Fasogbon on for Baxter, George and Davison would be quite an impact. Doubt it'll happen but you never know.

But really any XV should beat Japan so even if convincing win doubt learn anything.
It's painfully obvious several players should not be in squad Cole, Dombrandt, Isiekwe. Serious doubts about a few others as well.

Duty281 wrote:England will be a lot better when Mitchell returns. JVP very poor. Underhill put in a very good case for himself, after not even making the bench in earlier games. Steward had a very mixed showing. Slade still isn't the answer at 12. Sleightholme advanced himself, but Genge didn't and really struggled at scrum time. George looks increasingly like a player who only starts because he's captain.

The bench was so lightweight compared to SA. Cole was awful off the bench again.

Don't agree with much of that.

We lost by 9 points to the best team in the world. They had a try that should have been chalked off and we blew the chance to score in the last 10 by not throwing in straight. The lineout move had done the job, we throw that in straight and we're over and it's a kick to reduce the deficit to 2 points.

Generally the team played well. JvP was targeted hard with his box kicks, illegally at times but it's funny once how the England players started vocally complaining to the ref and he started looking at the offside line there was no issue. We kicked short and competed well, probably edging the aerial duel.

Composure at key moments in that second half cost us. The bench isn't delivering what we need but Borthwick's main issue this Autumn was his overly conservative EPS selection. He overlooked form too much.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Duty281 wrote:England will be a lot better when Mitchell returns. JVP very poor. Underhill put in a very good case for himself, after not even making the bench in earlier games. Steward had a very mixed showing. Slade still isn't the answer at 12. Sleightholme advanced himself, but Genge didn't and really struggled at scrum time. George looks increasingly like a player who only starts because he's captain.

The bench was so lightweight compared to SA. Cole was awful off the bench again.

Don't agree with much of that.

We lost by 9 points to the best team in the world. They had a try that should have been chalked off and we blew the chance to score in the last 10 by not throwing in straight. The lineout move had done the job, we throw that in straight and we're over and it's a kick to reduce the deficit to 2 points.

Generally the team played well. JvP was targeted hard with his box kicks, illegally at times but it's funny once how the England players started vocally complaining to the ref and he started looking at the offside line there was no issue. We kicked short and competed well, probably edging the aerial duel.

Composure at key moments in that second half cost us. The bench isn't delivering what we need but Borthwick's main issue this Autumn was his overly conservative EPS selection. He overlooked form too much.

Yeah, great, and blowing chances/losing composure is a theme with this England team, which points to mental weakness. If it were a one off, maybe it could be excused, but it's continual. England blew a lineout just like they blew a lineout at the last World Cup, which was also costly.

You can look at refereeing decisions any way round. I thought SA's disallowed try was very harsh, for example.

Don't think England came close to winning the aerial duel. JVP was awful and too many players were poor. I thought nine points flattered England to be honest.

I thought the arial dual was OK - Steward seemed to take most of what dropped on him and we scored a try off a high ball.

Steward did what he's good at very well, and didn't do well the things we know he's not good at. So no real suprise. Earl was lucky to not give away a few more penalties his kneeling on the floor tackle technique.
In parts they gave the world champions a load of problems, but as has recently become a habit they have made far too many mistakes when in good positions.

So what have we learned so far about England. Wellllll nothing we didn't already know.
England are on the cusp of being a very very good team, sort out a couple of positions/combinations and you will be flying.

Well, now the knives are really coming out, from the Telegraph

England’s results are unacceptable, and lack of talent cannot be blamed

It is an unacceptable situation that requires urgent attention. The facts that are inescapable are that England have won just four out of 11 games this year and those victories were over Wales, Italy, Ireland and Japan. It is their worst calendar year of results since 2018, when Eddie Jones came within a Danny Cipriani kick (which created the match-winning score for Jonny May in the third Test on the summer tour of South Africa) of losing his job. It is also the first time since 2006 that England have lost three successive games at Twickenham, the year that Andy Robinson lost his job as England head coach.

This has been a squad in transition since the start of the year, and there have been positive steps forward. England, if nothing else, have become a much more joyful team to watch. But neither is this a callow team now. Borthwick has assembled an impressive group of individuals, but clearly, right now the whole is not greater than the sum of their parts. Borthwick and his coaching team are not getting enough out of this squad.

I like the reference to Danny Cipriani and that match on the 2018 tour. I was at that match in Newlands....

I think Mitchell would have made a difference in the last 2 games. Enough of a difference to win them? Who knows.
But the drop off from Mitchell to the rest is pretty massive.
I tend to agree with many comments about the bench being fairly insipid over the last couple of weeks.
Dombrant just looks soft and that's how he plays. To paraphrase Michael Caine in Get Carter " you're a big man but you're in bad shape".
I have never thought of Nick Izikwae as anything other than a bench level Saracens player. I cannot remember him ever doing anything of note in an England shirt.
Surely Dan Cole must retire, or be retired before the 6 Ns?
England simply have to blood a new tight head this season to start building towards the WC.

Duty281 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Duty281 wrote:England will be a lot better when Mitchell returns. JVP very poor. Underhill put in a very good case for himself, after not even making the bench in earlier games. Steward had a very mixed showing. Slade still isn't the answer at 12. Sleightholme advanced himself, but Genge didn't and really struggled at scrum time. George looks increasingly like a player who only starts because he's captain.

The bench was so lightweight compared to SA. Cole was awful off the bench again.

Don't agree with much of that.

We lost by 9 points to the best team in the world. They had a try that should have been chalked off and we blew the chance to score in the last 10 by not throwing in straight. The lineout move had done the job, we throw that in straight and we're over and it's a kick to reduce the deficit to 2 points.

Generally the team played well. JvP was targeted hard with his box kicks, illegally at times but it's funny once how the England players started vocally complaining to the ref and he started looking at the offside line there was no issue. We kicked short and competed well, probably edging the aerial duel.

Composure at key moments in that second half cost us. The bench isn't delivering what we need but Borthwick's main issue this Autumn was his overly conservative EPS selection. He overlooked form too much.

Yeah, great, and blowing chances/losing composure is a theme with this England team, which points to mental weakness. If it were a one off, maybe it could be excused, but it's continual. England blew a lineout just like they blew a lineout at the last World Cup, which was also costly.

You can look at refereeing decisions any way round. I thought SA's disallowed try was very harsh, for example.

Don't think England came close to winning the aerial duel. JVP was awful and too many players were poor. I thought nine points flattered England to be honest.

I thought JvP did exactly what he was asked to do and was the reason South Africa got nowhere near any of their kicks to contest whilst England regularly disrupted South Africa trying to take the ball. JvP was obviously under instruction to kick short so we could compete in the air and it worked as a tactic. You could tell it was a pre planned tactic because all the forwards at the breakdown quickly back peddled after the kick went up and the chaser steamed through so there was no possible penalty to concede. JvP is more than capable of hoofing a box kick 50m, he was kicking them short intentionally.

The Bok forward pass was marginally forward, seen them not given but it looked like the TMO had realised the mistake over the Eben offside in the first half and wanted to make amends. Similarly with sir policing that area and hence limited Bok pressure on JvP in the second half. The neck roll Itoje got pinged for was the sort you see often not given and cost England a try as well.

I thought 9 points flattered the Boks. They were on the ropes late on and pretty cynically looked to stop the English momentum at the breakdown. PSDT was lucky not to pick up a yellow just after Steenkamp for collapsing the maul as it rumbles forwards. The LCD throw was a huge let off. Shame as a spectator as that would have made it a two point game and set up a grand stand finish.

sensisball wrote:I think Mitchell would have made a difference in the last 2 games. Enough of a difference to win them? Who knows.
But the drop off from Mitchell to the rest is pretty massive.

Not just Mitchell. Chessum would have been a huge plus for us over the last three games, he started the season brilliantly and would have allowed us to deploy CCS as an impact option instead of Dombrandt. IFW would have been a big plus yesterday as well.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

sensisball wrote:I think Mitchell would have made a difference in the last 2 games. Enough of a difference to win them? Who knows.
But the drop off from Mitchell to the rest is pretty massive.

Not just Mitchell. Chessum would have been a huge plus for us over the last three games, he started the season brilliantly and would have allowed us to deploy CCS as an impact option instead of Dombrandt. IFW would have been a big plus yesterday as well.

Thats the big one for me Sam...Ollie Chessum was a huge loss. Him alone might have changed a few results as you say..it allows impact of CCS from the bench. But as it is CCS has now another 3 games under his belt against 3 of the best. And hes shown himself a capable lineout option at this level also who will improve...

Waboso is class....big miss....Freeman hasn't impressed me hugely...maybe a move to 13 is the right move...now thst Marchant is probably out of the question of coming back..

protea438 wrote:

mountain man wrote:

protea438 wrote:

Yoda wrote:

Heaf wrote:

protea438 wrote:

Heaf wrote:What did Itoje do?

Two neck rolls and still wasnt carded

I saw the one for the disallowed try and that was nowhere near a yellow, and if there was one that was you can be sure Ben Whitehouse would have jumped on it.

Ben Whitehouse was looking so hard for an England infringement he missed the south African centre making contact with Slade's head.

As I said it was the Soap Dodgers arrogance that cost them, the Boks were penalised so much in a kickable positions and yet...

I always thought had to go onto an England HYS on BBC for that sort of trolling but fair play you've saved me going there

Just returning serve to the rubbish I see here.

And apparently we are the arrogant ones

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Duty281 wrote:England will be a lot better when Mitchell returns. JVP very poor. Underhill put in a very good case for himself, after not even making the bench in earlier games. Steward had a very mixed showing. Slade still isn't the answer at 12. Sleightholme advanced himself, but Genge didn't and really struggled at scrum time. George looks increasingly like a player who only starts because he's captain.

The bench was so lightweight compared to SA. Cole was awful off the bench again.

Don't agree with much of that.

We lost by 9 points to the best team in the world. They had a try that should have been chalked off and we blew the chance to score in the last 10 by not throwing in straight. The lineout move had done the job, we throw that in straight and we're over and it's a kick to reduce the deficit to 2 points.

Generally the team played well. JvP was targeted hard with his box kicks, illegally at times but it's funny once how the England players started vocally complaining to the ref and he started looking at the offside line there was no issue. We kicked short and competed well, probably edging the aerial duel.

Composure at key moments in that second half cost us. The bench isn't delivering what we need but Borthwick's main issue this Autumn was his overly conservative EPS selection. He overlooked form too much.

Yeah, great, and blowing chances/losing composure is a theme with this England team, which points to mental weakness. If it were a one off, maybe it could be excused, but it's continual. England blew a lineout just like they blew a lineout at the last World Cup, which was also costly.

You can look at refereeing decisions any way round. I thought SA's disallowed try was very harsh, for example.

Don't think England came close to winning the aerial duel. JVP was awful and too many players were poor. I thought nine points flattered England to be honest.

I thought JvP did exactly what he was asked to do and was the reason South Africa got nowhere near any of their kicks to contest whilst England regularly disrupted South Africa trying to take the ball. JvP was obviously under instruction to kick short so we could compete in the air and it worked as a tactic. You could tell it was a pre planned tactic because all the forwards at the breakdown quickly back peddled after the kick went up and the chaser steamed through so there was no possible penalty to concede. JvP is more than capable of hoofing a box kick 50m, he was kicking them short intentionally.

The Bok forward pass was marginally forward, seen them not given but it looked like the TMO had realised the mistake over the Eben offside in the first half and wanted to make amends. Similarly with sir policing that area and hence limited Bok pressure on JvP in the second half. The neck roll Itoje got pinged for was the sort you see often not given and cost England a try as well.

I thought 9 points flattered the Boks. They were on the ropes late on and pretty cynically looked to stop the English momentum at the breakdown. PSDT was lucky not to pick up a yellow just after Steenkamp for collapsing the maul as it rumbles forwards. The LCD throw was a huge let off. Shame as a spectator as that would have made it a two point game and set up a grand stand finish.

More likely Whitewhouse realised his 'mistake' in the first half had been outed by the commentary team and wanted to cover his a*se in the 2nd ... I thought the 'neck roll' was very harsh and why no review for the head on head around the same time that JG was asking for?

OK that's my paranoid rant for today

Can't blame ref or TMO, SA were better team and won. That's it. Yes decisions went against them at times but ultimately that is not what cost England match.
Steward got badly exposed for 2 tries although not sure anyone else would have made a difference but never know.

I still wonder about the wisdom of putting Ford on the bench instead of Furbank. Selecting Steward, to me, was the right call to start this game. But given there was a good chance England would need to chase the game in the last 15-20 minutes, England could have had another strong attacking threat from deep instead of Steward. Seems like a simple thing, but I guess not.

doctor_grey wrote:I still wonder about the wisdom of putting Ford on the bench instead of Furbank. Selecting Steward, to me, was the right call to start this game. But given there was a good chance England would need to chase the game in the last 15-20 minutes, England could have had another strong attacking threat from deep instead of Steward. Seems like a simple thing, but I guess not.

I would agree with that if Furbank's form hadn't been rank this Autumn. His form for Saints has been solid as opposed to spectacular and having him on the bench instead of Ford would have led us badly exposed if Marcus had picked up an injury. Add into that the Ford and Smith combination contributed two tries in less than 20 mins last weekend so could have worked if we'd needed it.

Forward impact was the issue. We were only solid off the bench, we didn't bring anything extra to the party.

mountain man wrote:Can't blame ref or TMO, SA were better team and won. That's it. Yes decisions went against them at times but ultimately that is not what cost England match.
Steward got badly exposed for 2 tries although not sure anyone else would have made a difference but never know.

Yeah he got stepped twice but it's not like Kolbe and Williams don't have previous for that. Kolbe stepped Sleightholme in the second half in less than half a metre and it's not like he's a bad one on one defender. They are just good players that do that to defenders. Steward had stopped Kolbe as the last man earlier in the game but it's the way it goes. Give quality players like that space and they generally finish.

The Boks are the best team in the world for a reason, they got a lot of quality in every position.

mountain man wrote:Can't blame ref or TMO, SA were better team and won. That's it. Yes decisions went against them at times but ultimately that is not what cost England match.
Steward got badly exposed for 2 tries although not sure anyone else would have made a difference but never know.

For sure - not blaming the officials for the loss, but they were poor ...

Heaf wrote:

mountain man wrote:Can't blame ref or TMO, SA were better team and won. That's it. Yes decisions went against them at times but ultimately that is not what cost England match.
Steward got badly exposed for 2 tries although not sure anyone else would have made a difference but never know.

For sure - not blaming the officials for the loss, but they were poor ...

I've not seen the full game yet, just some highlights. Busy week.

Genuine question though Heaf. When's the last time you watched a rugby match and didn't feel the team you were supporting were hard done by...? It does seem that most of your posts on match threads are effectively variations of, "This ref's an idiot and my team's getting f***ed over", or, "that's another mistake", or, "that's definitely a penalty to my side". It would seem an astonishing coincidence if the team you're supporting just happen to be the one that never gets the rub of reffing decisions in every game. Some brutal luck there if so! The other alternative being that you might be a bit more focused on things that go against your side than the things that break their way...?

Well to be fair, Heaf isn't alone. Just about every match the Boks won this year we have been told we were lucky, the referee helped us etc.

Old Man wrote:Well to be fair, Heaf isn't alone. Just about every match the Boks won this year we have been told we were lucky, the referee helped us etc.

Bl00dy Rassie has them all on the payroll...

Speaking of Rassie he's done an insane job taking the albeit bountiful player resources of South Africa and developing an eye watering amount of internationally tested and ready players. At this point he's naming a 34 man squad with more experienced guys just waiting to come in if there's injuries. He's developed different game plans that work to the skillsets of different players. He might be as mad as a box of frogs but you can't say he's not done a fantastic job.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Old Man wrote:Well to be fair, Heaf isn't alone. Just about every match the Boks won this year we have been told we were lucky, the referee helped us etc.

Bl00dy Rassie has them all on the payroll...

Speaking of Rassie he's done an insane job taking the albeit bountiful player resources of South Africa and developing an eye watering amount of internationally tested and ready players. At this point he's naming a 34 man squad with more experienced guys just waiting to come in if there's injuries. He's developed different game plans that work to the skillsets of different players. He might be as mad as a box of frogs but you can't say he's not done a fantastic job.

Yep, he has, but it has been a bit of a frustrating year for me at least. Whilst we have been succesful, I don't think we once put a cohesive 80 minute performance together this season yet.

We have certainly built some depth, so far Rassie have used 50 players this year, with about a dozen new capped players. At some point though he would need to provide some continuity in selection so the players can gel better. He also needs to be careful not to fall into the trap NZ fell into during the 2007 RWC where they didn't know who there best starting team was.

Sure the game is now a 23 man squad, but we need to be sure who that would be. I suspect Rassie is still trying to figure out who of his senior players will be around for the next world cup.