England vs South Africa 16th November

First topic message reminder :

England

15. Freddie Steward (Leicester Tigers, 34 caps)
14. Tommy Freeman (Northampton Saints, 13 caps)
13. Ollie Lawrence (Bath Rugby, 29 caps)
12. Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 67 caps)
11. Ollie Sleightholme (Northampton Saints, 3 caps)
10. Marcus Smith (Harlequins, 37 caps)
9. Jack van Poortvliet (Leicester Tigers, 14 caps)
1. Ellis Genge (Bristol Bears, 64 caps) – vice-captain
2. Jamie George (Saracens, 95 caps) – captain
3. Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 43 caps)
4. Maro Itoje (Saracens, 86 caps) – vice-captain
5. George Martin (Leicester Tigers, 17 caps)
6. Chandler Cunningham-South (Harlequins, 9 caps)
7. Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 38 caps)
8. Ben Earl (Saracens, 35 caps) – vice-captain

Replacements: 16. Luke Cowan-Dickie (Sale Sharks, 42 caps) 17. Fin Baxter (Harlequins, 4 caps) 18. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 117 caps) 19. Nick Isiekwe (Saracens, 13 caps) 20. Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins, 19 caps) 21. Harry Randall (Bristol Bears, 9 caps) 22. George Ford (Sale Sharks, 98 caps) – vice captain 23. Tom Roebuck (Sale Sharks, 1 cap)


South Africa

15 – Aphelele Fassi (Hollywoodbets Sharks) – 9 caps, 30 points (6t)
14 – Cheslin Kolbe (Suntory Sungoliath) – 38 caps, 101 points (16t, 3c, 5p)
13 – Jesse Kriel (Canon Eagles) – 77 caps, 90 points (18t)
12 – Damian de Allende (Wild Knights) – 85 caps, 55 points (11t)
11 – Kurt-Lee Arendse (Vodacom Bulls) – 22 caps, 85 points (17t)
10 – Manie Libbok (DHL Stormers) – 18 caps, 94 pts (1t, 28c, 11p)
9 – Grant Williams (Hollywoodbets Sharks) – 16 caps, 15 points (3t)

8 – Jasper Wiese (Urayasu D-Rocks) – 32 caps, 10 points (2t)
7 – Pieter-Steph du Toit (Toyota Verblitz) – 85 caps, 55 points (11t)
6 – Siya Kolisi (captain, Hollywoodbets Sharks) – 90 caps, 60 points (12t)
5 – RG Snyman (Leinster) – 38 caps, 10 points (2t)
4 – Eben Etzebeth (Hollywoodbets Sharks) – 129 caps, 30 points (6t)
3 – Wilco Louw (Vodacom Bulls) – 14 caps, 0 points
2 – Bongi Mbonambi (Hollywoodbets Sharks) – 76 caps, 75 points (15t)
1 – Ox Nche (Hollywoodbets Sharks) – 38 caps, 0 points

Replacements:

16 – Malcolm Marx (Kubota Spears) – 74 caps, 105 points (21t)
17 – Gerhard Steenekamp (Vodacom Bulls) – 9 caps, 0 points
18 – Vincent Koch (Hollywoodbets Sharks) – 59 caps, 0 points
19 – Elrigh Louw (Vodacom Bulls) – 11 caps, 0 points
20 – Kwagga Smith (Shizuoka Blue Revs) – 50 caps, 45 points (9t)
21 – Cobus Reinach (Montpellier) – 37 caps, 70 pts (14t)
22 – Handre Pollard (Leicester Tigers) – 78 caps, 767 points (7t, 108c, 167p, 5dg)
23 – Lukhanyo Am (Hollywoodbets Sharks) – 41 caps, 35 pts (7t)

king_carlos wrote:

Heaf wrote:

mountain man wrote:Can't blame ref or TMO, SA were better team and won. That's it. Yes decisions went against them at times but ultimately that is not what cost England match.
Steward got badly exposed for 2 tries although not sure anyone else would have made a difference but never know.

For sure - not blaming the officials for the loss, but they were poor ...

I've not seen the full game yet, just some highlights. Busy week.

Genuine question though Heaf. When's the last time you watched a rugby match and didn't feel the team you were supporting were hard done by...? It does seem that most of your posts on match threads are effectively variations of, "This ref's an idiot and my team's getting f***ed over", or, "that's another mistake", or, "that's definitely a penalty to my side". It would seem an astonishing coincidence if the team you're supporting just happen to be the one that never gets the rub of reffing decisions in every game. Some brutal luck there if so! The other alternative being that you might be a bit more focused on things that go against your side than the things that break their way...?

Yes hands up I'm biased, I can't help myself.   However I do also point out what I see as officiating errors in other matches where I don't have an axe to grind, as I just feel sometimes the officials could do better eg today I think Oz would have had a valid complaint about no card for a shoulder on head, but I certainly wasn't supporting them, and I also questioned why no pen for Wales playing the ball off the floor.  You shouldn't always conflate pointing out officiating errors (however one sided maybe) with blaming them for the loss - I think it's human nature to point out things that go against your team (and I'm far from the only one who does), but it doesn't automatically follow you're saying they are the reason they lost.  I'm pretty sure I said multiple times in the thread that England's defence was woeful etc - I even said even if SA had been down to 13 England would still have stuffed it up ....

Old Man wrote:Well to be fair, Heaf isn't alone. Just about every match the Boks won this year we have been told we were lucky, the referee helped us etc.

I didn't say that though ... I was also very critical of England throughout the thread.

Heaf wrote:

Old Man wrote:Well to be fair, Heaf isn't alone. Just about every match the Boks won this year we have been told we were lucky, the referee helped us etc.

I didn't say that though ... I was also very critical of England throughout the thread.

The very nerve...England were brilliant..

How come some on the thread get away with name calling but others don't, mods aren't you supposed to ban wums and trolls? Hang on it's not Ben Whitehouse moderating is it?