Wales U20 v Italy U20

Well, here's the Wales team, there's 11 changes from the side that got thumped by the BB's on Tuesday:

Wales U20: Ross Jones (Ospreys / Bridgend); Liam Williams (Llanelli), Owen Williams (Blues / Cardiff), Rheon James (Scarlets / Carmarthen Quins), Eli Walker (Ospreys / Swansea); Matthew Morgan (Ospreys / Swansea), Jonathan Evans (Dragons / Newport); Lewis Smout (Blues / Pontypridd), Kirby Myhill (Scarlets / Llanelli), Will Taylor (Ospreys / Swansea), Macauley Cook (capt, Blues / Cardiff), Cory Hill (Blues / Pontypridd), Luke Hamilton (Blues / Glamorgan Wanderers), Thomas Young (Blues / Cardiff), Ben Thomas (Ospreys / Bridgend).

Replacements: Jamie Sollis (Dragons / Cross Keys), Rhodri Jones (Scarlets / Llanelli), Owen Sheppeard (Blues / Pontypridd), Edward Siggery (London Irish), Lewis Jones (Blues / Pontypridd), Steve Shingler (London Irish), Iolo Evans (Scarlets / Llanelli).

K.O is at 17:10 today.

Will be interesting to see what effect that horrific loss has on the team. From a personal perspective I'm interested to see how Rheon James cones in the centre, and I hope our pack can provide us with more protection at the breakdown in this match.

S4C coverage starts at 16:50

Hope the lads bounce back from the horror show in the week. The Baby Blacks are exceptional, after all the boys didn't look bad against Argentina

but then again wasnt their 7 changes from the argentine side to the baby blacks side???
hopefully they do well will be interesting to see if there are any players who look set for the future

Lets hope the boys aren't shell shocked after the last game.
They hammer Italy most of the time so lets hope we can put things right quickly.

Could be a bit of pressure on the team. We usually hammer the Italians but the team could be pretty nervous going into this one. I think we will put a good score on Itlay, but I can just imagine the comments if it is close.

Beat them pretty convincingly 46-15 in February even though prop Will Taylor was sent off.

Matthew Morgan played a blinder that game, so good to see him back.

Not really concerned about the last game. The BABs seem to win by those kinds of scores more often than not.

does anyone know if there is any way to put english commentry on s4c?

Learn Welsh "Welshy"

Or buy Sky Sports.

Good play by the lads, 28-6 up at half time playing some good rugby for their tries

42-6

It's a good performance Maes although I'm still worried about the basic errors we're making. Other teams would capitalise on them.

Too many knock ins my only worry but it is a wet afternoon as they said.

True, and I've been impressed with the attacking display of a lot of the boys. I guess it's encouraging to see there is still so much room for improvement.

I think they are playing well against a surprisingly decent team, even though Italy have been the groups whipping boys. Defence is a big issue but the welsh attacking is great.

Matthew Morgan is excellent.

Oh unlucky for Italy there, thought their no 7 was definitely in for a try!

Matthew Morgan is brilliant going forward, got great vision and step on him. Defence needs a lot of work (but then you could say that about nearly all the backline!). Hope he continues to develop well coz he's definitely a talent.

Determination got him over the line and the fact he is a big lump helps

ha I really enjoyed that try by Rhodri Jones, tis good to see a Welsh prop on the charge!

Still a lot of mistakes by Wales with wasteful knock ons and silly errors but a much better performance.

Italy 7-64 New Zealand

Italy 6-56 Wales

New Zealand 92-0 Wales


How does that work???!!!

Coaches and their classical ability to mess things up.

yeh i also thought hamilton was very good, morgan missed a few tackles but when he needed to tackle he used support or the touch line to help

Good win, only real worries were the scrum and the awful amount of knock-on's. What exactly is up with handling in Wales? The ball sometimes appears to have been dipped in hot butter before games.

welshjohn369 wrote:Learn Welsh "Welshy"

i know a bit of welsh got an A at short course, but welsh in schools doesnt help you with listening to commentry or talking in everyday life

Wleshy - I recommend to listening to the rugby more on S4C, it's helped me loads with understanding Welsh, although think a lot of that was down to the fact I had to really concentrate to provide translations for my dad

You're right though it is difficult to take what Welsh you learn in the classroom and apply it to everyday things. Tis just a need of practice I guess.

My knowledge (and interest) of the Welsh language is very limited but thanks to S4C I know dan y pyst is under the posts!

Much better from Wales today, at least there was no hangover from from the New Zealand loss.

wales606 wrote:Italy 7-64 New Zealand

Italy 6-56 Wales

New Zealand 92-0 Wales


How does that work???!!!

New Zealand weren't coming off the back of a trouncing in their previous game! I dread to think what would have happened to Wales or Italy is New Zealand had something to prove in those games!

welshy824 wrote:

welshjohn369 wrote:Learn Welsh "Welshy"

i know a bit of welsh got an A at short course, but welsh in schools doesnt help you with listening to commentry or talking in everyday life

No offence I am a Gog!! I hardly spoke english until I was 10!

I watched it good performance byWales,excellent defence.Italy looked good forward but apart from that offered little. Typical of there national teams really,good forwards disinctly average backs.Wales made a lot of sloppy handling errors.

[/quote] No offence I am a Gog!! I hardly spoke english until I was 10! [/quote]
yes but i am assuming you live north west wales? because i live right on the border with england, it just short course is really usefull if i want to say how bullying is terrible but absolutely rubbish if i need to follow commentry-and the speed at which its at...

i learnt more with welsh in my primary school to be honest

but anyway back on track it was nice to see that wales bounced back, what are the chances of getting to the semis?

welshy824 wrote: what are the chances of getting to the semis?

None. They needed to win by 100 points to stand a chance anyway.

Wales arent in the Semis, Aus beat them to it, easily due to the PD.

Wales are in the 5th place playoffs.

Next game is Wales vs Fiji,

hmmmm...

ah right, havent been following just watched todays match and i thought hamilton and morgan were the standout players,
wales v fiji please wales win we dont want bad omens to the wc...

Enforcer:
"How does that work???!!!"

I cant see that anyones pointed it out yet but in deploying their second team against the AB's someone seems to have completely stuffed up in their analysis of the qualifying rules.

Aus got through as 3rd qualifier with the top of each pool. So what it meant was... assuming Wales thought ABs would beat them and Argentina to top the pool they effectively gave the AB match away. But in doing that they must have known the 4th qualifier would need the best points for and against deficit.

In thrashing the other two opponents Wales only needed to compete with NZ at some degree and hope for the best with the forth spot.

In resting the top players (is that what they did as I'd heard at least Morgan should have played) then Wales opened themselves up to guaranteeing a greater points difference.

Am i correct in this? If I've missed something then I apologise but if thats correct then that must rank as one of the stupidest administrative blunders I've ever seen in Rugby.

Correct me please because it seems to dumb to be true.

sounds about right- stupid error from the coaching staff, they cant rest players withe the current u20 system, need to play best each game, live for today and all that

and the players, the captain, the Welsh folk in general never commented on the potential outcome in terms of a better points differential of changing 11 players after a 60 point win against the pool easybeat to go into a match against team who have never lost a match, one that specialises in punishing weaknesses on the scoreboard?

Ok... thats enough said then...truly amazing.

Taylorman wrote:Enforcer:

I cant see that anyones pointed it out yet but in deploying their second team against the AB's someone seems to have completely stuffed up in their analysis of the qualifying rules.

Correct me please because it seems to dumb to be true.

Yep, I was curious enough about it to post when the suggestion was made that Wales were "resting their players" in order to have a better chance against weaker teams. Looks like nobody in the Welsh management team is reading 606v2 yet

The competition stipulates very thorough rules about starts for all players etc, I guess they wanted to ensure they actually won as many of the winnable games as they could, and may have erroneously believed a cricket score game against the BBs might have provided the opportunity to score enough tries? Not sure. It's confusing anyway.

I don't see how its even confusing Grey. I didnt know but it tuns out 4 teams would qualify. 3 would top their section and next would be highest pointes differential.

Assuming Wales, after having beaten Argentina comfortably, knew they would have a very good chance of beating Italy after the 60 odd points NZ put on them they knew before the NZ match that barring an unlikely draw scenario the forth team would be a one match losing team and it would likely be between Wales and 2 others, so keeping the match difference down in the loss was JUST as important as winning the other two.

So the only valid reason for fielding a second team would be to keep injuries to the A team to a minimum- and I'd welcome anyone to try to argue that one.

If I were the Welsh management I'd be apologising to these poor kids profusely.

What a debacle putting them in that position.

Rules stae that EVERY member of the sqad has to start at least one game in the group stages. That means be in NZ, Wales, Argentina, Italy, England etc they all had to 'rest' players and chop and change. Wales could have picked a stronger team to play NZ but would probably still have lost. The weaker them therefore would have had to either play the Argies or Italy annd judging by how poor they were against NZ could have lost to either of those teams anyway. The problem wasn't the coaches but the players who missed tackles and were simply not good eniugh to secures the 4th qualification spot. Unfortuantly teams like England, France, NZ, Australia and South Africa are streets ahead of their Welsh counterparts.

wrfc1980 wrote:Rules stae that EVERY member of the sqad has to start at least one game in the group stages. That means be in NZ, Wales, Argentina, Italy, England etc they all had to 'rest' players and chop and change. Wales could have picked a stronger team to play NZ but would probably still have lost. The weaker them therefore would have had to either play the Argies or Italy annd judging by how poor they were against NZ could have lost to either of those teams anyway. The problem wasn't the coaches but the players who missed tackles and were simply not good eniugh to secures the 4th qualification spot. Unfortuantly teams like England, France, NZ, Australia and South Africa are streets ahead of their Welsh counterparts.

Bingo.
If the players are frightened and wont front up when needed it doesnt matter who the coaches are or how much time and effort they put into the players.
At the age and level these guys are playing at that shouldnt happen.

I doubt it helped that the coaches decided to rest the captain against the BB -No wonder the team didnt front up, they had no leader and all the other potential on-field leaders were also 'being rested' - Ridiculous decision.

wrfc1980 wrote:Rules stae that EVERY member of the sqad has to start at least one game in the group stages. That means be in NZ, Wales, Argentina, Italy, England etc they all had to 'rest' players and chop and change.

I dont like the format of this tournament but I do like this rule about revolving the squads, this is a unique experience for the lads. Unfortunately though I think it is actually an unnecessary rule.

wrfc1980 wrote:Wales could have picked a stronger team to play NZ but would probably still have lost. The weaker them therefore would have had to either play the Argies or Italy annd judging by how poor they were against NZ could have lost to either of those teams anyway.

i don't like the way that some teams hands are forced not to pick some of their best players due to those players alternative commitments.

wrfc1980 wrote:The problem wasn't the coaches but the players who missed tackles and were simply not good eniugh to secures the 4th qualification spot. Unfortuantly teams like England, France, NZ, Australia and South Africa are streets ahead of their Welsh counterparts.

AlynDavies wrote:Bingo.
If the players are frightened and wont front up when needed it doesnt matter who the coaches are or how much time and effort they put into the players.
At the age and level these guys are playing at that shouldnt happen.

One team shorn of its International players, star Under 20 players, Regional players etc against another with a compliment of International and Super 15 players it is obvious who will win. If Wales valued this tournament higher they would allow players that are playing at a higher level of rugby to play in this tournament as the all the semi finalists are.


The Baby All Blacks are by far the best team in this tournament, now and historically. They have never lost a match at this level. In fact the closest score any side has ever achieved against them was the semi final of the 2009 tournament where they beat Australia 31-17.

2008 Junior World Championship
Pool Match 48–9 Tonga
Pool Match 65–10 Ireland
Pool Match 60–0 Argentina
Semi Final 31–6 Wales
Final 38–3 England

2009 Junior World Championship
Pool Match 75–0 Uruguay
Pool Match 17–0 Ireland
Pool Match 48–9 Argentina
Semi Final 31–17 Australia
Final 44–28 England

2010 Junior World Championship
Pool Match 44–11 Fiji
Pool Match 77–7 Samoa
Pool Match 43–10 Wales
Semi Final 36–7 South Africa
Final 62–17 Australia

2011 Junior World Championship
Pool Match 64–7 Italy
Pool Match 92–0 Wales
Pool Match 48-15 Argentina

A good point Maesteg. The Highlanders lost their 1st choice (post injuries to Slade and Robinson) flyhalf to the U20s. The Reds recalled a player (sorry, can't remember who) from the tournament when their injury crisis hit. NZ takes these tournaments seriously as a development tool, and it shows.

It's worth noting that NZ started a lot of their squad players in the Italy game, and made 9 changes for Wales. It'll be interesting to see who starts in the semi-final, should be the strongest XV.

Maesteg im not disputing those facts but the truth is using your own statistics Wales played New Zealand in 2008 and 2010 at this level in the World Cup and kept the score much closer.
So either Wales have fallen to pieces inside 12 months, which I dont accept. New Zealand have a freakish generation of players this year, which I dont accept based on their results against Italy and Argentina, or the Welsh boys went into the New Zealand game like scarred school boys, and embarrased their country.
The truth is out U20 team is playing similar teams on a regular basis and our structures and academies are adequate. But the bottom line is when a team goes into a game terrified of getting hurt and unwilling to put their bodies into places where they might get hurt you will lose by a massive score... hence 92-0. You might get that attitude in a school boy game but for Welsh international players at any level who are professionals that should never be the case.
Another side issue is it's now the off season for the northern Hemisphere and some players who might be eligible for this age group need to rest before next season starts so they can play more of a role in the Magners league when the Wales internationals are at the World Cup. It would be silly to burden them with this world cup and then expect them to perform at Magners level for 2 months while Wales are in New Zealand.

Kiwireddevil wrote:A good point Maesteg. The Highlanders lost their 1st choice (post injuries to Slade and Robinson) flyhalf to the U20s. The Reds recalled a player (sorry, can't remember who) from the tournament when their injury crisis hit. NZ takes these tournaments seriously as a development tool, and it shows.

It's worth noting that NZ started a lot of their squad players in the Italy game, and made 9 changes for Wales. It'll be interesting to see who starts in the semi-final, should be the strongest XV.

KRD

To be fair, it is a pleasure to watch any of them, they are such a sublime team. I am sure they will keep up their mantle of not loosing a match for another year.

I would like to see Wales push harder in this tournament, allowing all the best players qualified to play. I know that there was an WRU sanctioned concept of focusing efforts on next years JRWC rather than this, hense the young and inexperienced squad we have.

I guess the WRU are looking at a bigger picture in their eyes. THough I feel their are arguments that swing for both sides. I think Players like George North and Tom Prydie would definitely benefit from playing in this tournament.

In fact I would say that the IRB were probably wrong to make this U20's and not keep the old system. The decision was made due to the number of Under 21s involved in modern senior Rugby. It would be a much stronger tournament for it.

Or maybe an idea would be to keep the Under 20s Junior RWC but possibly have an Under 23s RWC or an A-Team RWC ? ? ?

AlynDavies wrote:Maesteg im not disputing those facts but the truth is using your own statistics Wales played New Zealand in 2008 and 2010 at this level in the World Cup and kept the score much closer.
So either Wales have fallen to pieces inside 12 months, which I dont accept. New Zealand have a freakish generation of players this year, which I dont accept based on their results against Italy and Argentina, or the Welsh boys went into the New Zealand game like scarred school boys, and embarrased their country.
The truth is out U20 team is playing similar teams on a regular basis and our structures and academies are adequate. But the bottom line is when a team goes into a game terrified of getting hurt and unwilling to put their bodies into places where they might get hurt you will lose by a massive score... hence 92-0. You might get that attitude in a school boy game but for Welsh international players at any level who are professionals that should never be the case.
Another side issue is it's now the off season for the northern Hemisphere and some players who might be eligible for this age group need to rest before next season starts so they can play more of a role in the Magners league when the Wales internationals are at the World Cup. It would be silly to burden them with this world cup and then expect them to perform at Magners level for 2 months while Wales are in New Zealand.

Alyn no team ever takes the field scared. You take the field full of beans and confidence. Heads didn't drop in that game, the boys kept trying to play rugby.

The truth is in the breakdown, the way it is refereed and the way team is allowed to compete.

The Welsh Under 20 are not a bad side, a few handling errors, knock ons etc and their scrum is not a weapon, but they play a clean game that doesn't give away many penalties is attractive and effective in attack.

Against the Baby All Blacks they were beaten at the breakdown, constantly turned over. Part of that was the physical size difference, and experience of the BABs, but also because the referee had an open, uncompetitive, very Super 15 policy at the break down.

By the way New Zealand do have a freakish generation of players this year...! That is undeniable.

Maesteg, an A team RWC (maybe held 2 years off from the RWC - something for non-Lions tourists from the UK/Ireland perhaps) would be pretty good. Maybe allowing tier 2 unions to send full (or near-full) international squads would help their development too - a Churchill Cup writ large.

KRD i completely the agree.... And would be a great tournament to be played in lower tier nations that never have the opportunity to host the official RWC.

maestegmafia wrote:I would like to see Wales push harder in this tournament, allowing all the best players qualified to play. I know that there was an WRU sanctioned concept of focusing efforts on next years JRWC rather than this, hense the young and inexperienced squad we have.

I guess the WRU are looking at a bigger picture in their eyes. THough I feel their are arguments that swing for both sides. I think Players like George North and Tom Prydie would definitely benefit from playing in this tournament.

In fact I would say that the IRB were probably wrong to make this U20's and not keep the old system. The decision was made due to the number of Under 21s involved in modern senior Rugby. It would be a much stronger tournament for it.

Or maybe an idea would be to keep the Under 20s Junior RWC but possibly have an Under 23s RWC or an A-Team RWC ? ? ?

I understand your argument but this season has exceptional ciurcumstances.
Firstly it's the off season now and secondly many of our best young players will be required to play in the Magners league for 2+ months next season as a result of Wales's players being on World Cup duty. It would be madness to play these kids in a World Cup, without having a rest then expect them to hold their own in the Magners league. Players are limited to how many games they can play in a season and all players MUST have 10 weeks off before they can play again under IRB rules.
North is going to be in the Wales team in the World Cup so if we want him to come to the main event he cant come to the U20 World Cup. Prydie has a bad injury which ruled him out for 8 months. The Ospreys have lost a lot of players so most of their young players will be needed for the Magners league, so again to play them in this world cup and make them unavailable for the start of next season is madness, especially as they will get the oppertunity for first team rugby and a much better chance to develop.