Wales changes for Italy

Are Wales a 2nd half team or are the replacements better players?

I would pick

15. Leigh Halfpenny
14. Alex Cuthbert
13. Jon Davies
12. James Hook (Roberts isn't doing much and he missed tackles)
11. George North
10. Dan Biggar
9. Mike Phillips

8. Toby Faletau
7. Justin Tipuric
6. Ryan Jones
5. Ian Evans
4. Alun-wyn Jones (back from injury)
3. Adam Jones
2. Richard Hibbard
1. Paul James (no brainer)

16. Gethin Jenkins
17. Ken Owens
18. Craig Mitchell
19. Sam Warburton
20. Lloyd Williams
21. Jamie Roberts
22. Lee Byrne

Never thought that i would say this but Gethin Jenkins had a fairly good game today.

Howley won't change any but that's just my opinion.

Roberts definitely needs to go. I barely notice he is on the field. Ryan Jones should keep his place and the captaincy. We are always a much more dogged team when he is there. Scott Williams in to centre, Hook in for Biggar.

Gethin did well in the lose, and the scrum will improve with AWJ back,

Same starting 15, with the exception of AWJ for Coombs.

wales606 wrote:Gethin did well in the lose, and the scrum will improve with AWJ back,

Same starting 15, with the exception of AWJ for Coombs.

I do understand that Wales have missed AWJ.

But surely if he is comeming back into the team he should do so off the bench?

majesticimperialman wrote:

wales606 wrote:Gethin did well in the lose, and the scrum will improve with AWJ back,

Same starting 15, with the exception of AWJ for Coombs.

I do understand that Wales have missed AWJ.

But surely if he is comeming back into the team he should do so off the bench?

If the game was next week, yes, but with the extra weeks preparation, we need him in the second row and warmed up for Murrayfield aswell.

doc.nic. hook for biggar????? you cant be serious!!!! apart from 2 side footers, he was very good today. no showboating a la hooky, that kick for the try was perfect, and from a controlled performance today he has certainly gone another step forward in keeping the shirt.

hook would have tried the bambi shuffle or miracle pass and we would not have scored.

we need a change at 12, and cuthbert needs a lesson in defending or looses his place.,

interesting to hear clive woodward and martin williams say how slow the rugby is in french club rugby, maybe moving to france hasnt done much for hooks game after all. jiffy reckons its hard for mike phillips to flick a switch and up his pace at 9 because of the way he has to play in france.

btw, 33 times hook has played for wales at fly half, he started 19 of those ,sub fh 14 ,started 19 at centre and started 10 at full back.

he had 5 consecutive starts may 2007 to sept 2007 at fly half.
in the 2008 6ns started at fly half v england, followed by scotland, then subbed on at fh italy, ireland startedfh v france.

2011 started fh v ireland,then france. oct 2011 fh v france then australia

hook has had his chances. he's now 27/28 . this is biggars second 6 nations game and only 13th cap, so lets give the 23 yr old a chance.

if hook was that good he would have started today .

I suspect there won't be any changes, except maybe AWJ, who had avery good second half in an excellent Ospreys away performance yesterday.

I'd like to see Scott W get a chance -- we need a change to midfield, desperately. For Wales to develop, we have to change our midfield.

Agree, Biggar has the 10 shirt for now.

Your missing lock cover

We need to stick by Biggar IMO. What Wales have been lacking for a while is variety. Whether that is due to tactics or not, I don't know. Already with Biggar we are seeing someone who runs occasionally, chips over the top, kicks to touch for field position, does a few up n unders, grubbers, passes. The point being that the opposition are made to think more with a 10 that has variety than a player that never runs or always passes or always kicks long and in field. OK, we didn't set the world on fire in attack today, but as much as France were/are rubbish this tournament, they're still a good team defensively. It took a moment of 'variety' to unlock them, so kudos to Biggar. He will only get better with more game time at this level.

Gethin again seemed great in the loose and the tackle area, which is always a bonus, but struggled again at scrum time. How much of that is down to Coombs, I don't know. But for me Gethin always seems to struggle in the scrum of late regardless of who is pushing behind him, so for me it's a bit harsh to criticise Coombs. That said, a specialist 2nd row would be my preferred option, with Coombs doing enough for me to gain a bench spot as a 2nd row/flanker utility.

SH - arrrrgh! I really don't know. Something makes me want to hate Mike Phillips and his rugby! Half of what he does is bad, but half is also good! He's not that 'zippy', or it looks that way on TV, but he does stop a lot of traffic that a regular SH wouldn't stop. His break in the second half where he put someone on their backside gave us a great platform. Another SH would have been flattened, isolated and turned over, possibly conceded a penalty. But again, how would we be with quicker ball? I just don't know. I'm on the fence as usual on this one!

I would like to see Byrne at FB and Halfpenny on the wing. I just feel that Halfpenny is perennially the make shift full back, and that Byrne is the more natural option in that position. Not sure who'd make way on the wing though. Before today maybe North as Cuthbert seems more 'prolific', but Cuthbert seems a bit defensively at sea sometimes so maybe him?

I agree with pretty much all of that Griff, although i don't see Byrne coming into the team now. Cuthbert needs to work on his defence

Yeah, I feel a bit sorry for Byrne. Making big noises in France, apparently, called I to the Wales squad, but never even getting on as a sub. Must be frustrating. I often get the feeling that halfpenny is a bit lost in all of the space in front of him, of that makes sense. I think he's more at home with the narrowness of the touch line as his guiding force. Byrne hits the line much better as an attacking force from FB. I rarely see Halfpenny joining the line in attack. Byrne at his best, or any fullback for that matter, manages to get on the outside shoulder of the centres and add an extra option running at pace from deep. Halfpenny has got the pace to do it, no doubt, but doesn't for some reason.

Halfpenny did actually hit the line a few times today, it is something he is improving at.

Yeah ok. Maybe it's just the way Wales are playing in general that doesn't release the fullback. Maybe Byrne wouldn't get those chances to come onto the ball either. Who knows. Good that we've got a bench option in Byrne who is on form at club level. Until recently it would have been a re shuffle of the backs to accommodate a halfpenny injury.

IMO there should only be one change, James fore Jenkins but that said I thought Jenkins had his best game for a while.

Of course thats my opinion, I do however think that Warburton will come back at 7 and AWJ back at lock.

If Warbs replaces Tipuric I will not be happy with Howley at all. Put him on the bench and make him earn his place back.

wales606 wrote:If Warbs replaces Tipuric I will not be happy with Howley at all. Put him on the bench and make him earn his place back.

+1000

wales606 wrote:Gethin did well in the lose, and the scrum will improve with AWJ back,

Same starting 15, with the exception of AWJ for Coombs.

Are you serious? Why an earth would you drop Coombes from the team that beat France in their own back yard & had a fine game?

[quote="gavstar"]doc.nic. hook for biggar????? you cant be serious!!!! apart from 2 side footers, he was very good today. no showboating a la hooky, that kick for the try was perfect, and from a controlled performance today he has certainly gone another step forward in keeping the shirt.

Bigger caught passes shipped them on and kicked. Sorryy but you need more than doing the basics without a major ukup to play international rugby, which by the way he failed to do last week and has failed to do on every other occcasion he has been asked to step up. If Bigger is the best we have then stick a pump up Morgans ashle pump him up feed hom concrete put protein drinks on a drip blah blah

Bigger is a decent club player who plays behind a decent pack. HE OFFERS NOTHING CREATIVE AND WE LACK CREATIVITY???? He is ordinary with a capta O

He put in a more luck than judgement kick which led to a try. Could have gone anywhere.

It is you who can't be serious. Biggar has to go, Phillips has to go, Jenkins has to go (not forever)

The speed ofgetting the ball out of the breakdown was so much faster with lloyd williams, he definitely should be given a start.
James in for Jenkins.
Mitchell in for adam jones.
Cuthbert needs to learn to offload. Twice today I think at least and same against ireland he could have made a pass or offload and we could have been a lot further down the field if not clear. No need to replace him he just needs to realise he can't run through everybody himself.
No need to replace coombes, biggar or move halfpenny, three of our best players today.

dragonbreath, what game were you watching? as griff said earlier, when he could ,biggar tried to vary with grubbers, chips , took it on himself, our centres had some good ball today and messed up big time.

this was biggars 2nd 6 nations game out of 13 caps

and as for the other games he has started in.... 2 canada, 2 nz, 1 fiji, 1 samoa. 1 barbarians, we are going back from 2008. hes only 23 now!!

if you are a hook supporter, which i suspect, look at his stats for wales. 33 times at fh, 19 starts plus 68 caps in all, never nailed the shirt, and was moved on at club level too, so, get over it, new kid on the block,

i hope he has a great 6 nations, too much looking backwards, picking on previous reputations has done us no good

time to move on. you are expecting our 10 to do everything. shipping ball on , yes to lions centre , well why not? shouldnt our lions centre have done something with the ball? biggar had a blue line in front all game. opportunities were few, there was another team on the park !!! dont you think the team had any backs moves if the opportunity was there for the call ?

ball was slow again today from rucks, do you think biggar is a miracle worker. get real. that kick for the try was excellent and anyone who cant accept that has no real knowledge of what it takes to perform at this level.

creative you say? you create something for others ,its a team game, the amount of ball the centres ,and not so often the wings, had today and messed up was criminal.

i suspect you mean blind alley running a la hook , showboating getting isolated, turned over, miracle passes ,ohs and ahs from the crowd.....with no outcome

if you cant at least credit the kick for the try then i wonder why you support wales.

I don't understand why people are calling for Coombs to be dropped. Maybe it's because he plays for the Dragons. He has played very well. He was dropped in at 4 after very limited game time there are regional level. I agree that having AWJ at 4 would be the ideal situation but he has only just got back. Even when AWJ comes back in, I think Toby should be dropped. I'd rather see 6. Coombs, 8. Ryan and 7. Tipuric

Coleman wrote:I don't understand why people are calling for Coombs to be dropped. Maybe it's because he plays for the Dragons. He has played very well. He was dropped in at 4 after very limited game time there are regional level. I agree that having AWJ at 4 would be the ideal situation but he has only just got back. Even when AWJ comes back in, I think Toby should be dropped. I'd rather see 6. Coombs, 8. Ryan and 7. Tipuric

We just beat France AWAY with that team. Now I'm thinking changing it would affect harmony and confidence.

In theory the changes I suggested could work but Howley wonty change any. Now Wales have confidence the players may start throwing the ball about.

Why are people saying that AWJ should walk back in for Coombs but Warburton has to earn his place back.

Coombs has had two very strong games so deserves to keep his place by all means put AWJ and Warburton on the bench but neither should walk straight back in.

THough I am guessing Warburton will wrongly walk back in.

Bedford, I think the difference is that AWJ is a specialist, whereas Warburton has a specialist in front of him playing better. That said, Coombes has not looked out of place. I have no idea whether he is depowering the scrum or not due to his lack of game time pushing in the second row. Or is it just Gethin not being too powerful at prop (same old story).

The one are Wales need to improve is the scrum, they struggled from the start. I am usure whether this was due to the pitch, lack of power in the front 5, a lightweight 7 or just poor refereeing.

Rees is getting on and is not as lively around the park as Hibbard and Owen, but he is a far better scrumager as he proved in a Lions shirt! Coombes has played far better than I expected but the fact remains he is a converted flanker, so it is unlikely that he scrumages as well an a specialist lock.

My changes for Italy would be James, Rees and AWJ to power up the scrum. Warburton if fit will challenge for the no 7 shirt but Ryan is bolted on at 6 after a fantastic game against the French.

Behind the scrum the only change I would conider is Byrne at 15 with 1/2p replacing Cuthbert. If the pack can generate front foot ball the backs will be far more effective. And please dont pick Hook at 10 and certainly not 12, his concentration and defence is just not good enough at international level.

Interesting reading so far.

RE Coombs, he has been excellent in the 2 games, but lets be blunt, he is in a stage of development, and is covering a position he doesn't play regularly, AWJ had a great 20 minute showing the other night and should be back for Italy, IMHO Coombs more than deserves a bench place on merit. But he is lacking physicality, carrying and at the breakdown (so far)

The scrum is an issue, Jenkins struggled V Ireland, and yesterday we were up against the biggest scrum around, the pitch and lock problem didn't help, not to mention losing Rees, but IMHO with AWJ and a better pitch we'll be ok V Italy (although I'd STILL like to see James start)

I also find it funny that Roberts and JD2 are getting criticised now, when both are playing to a very structured gameplan (I guarentee you Roberts doesn't want to be crashing over and over) but for me we are in a situation similar to before Priestlands form pre world cup exploded!!

RP was peoples nod because of his distribution and his ability to get the backline going, Biggar was criticised for not being able to, and once again our backline has stopped moving once he's back. Not that I'm saying Hook could do better but Biggars reappearance in the welsh shirt has coincided with our backline struggling!

won't be surprised if howley will try and find a place for warburton in the team. they seem to have this loyalty to him, especially with the lion's tour this summer (didn't mcbryde mention something similar in the press) if they do try and accommodate sam then possibly they will move ryan to the second row at the expense of coombes, and bring sam in at six?

personally changes i'd make would be:

AWJ = Coombes ( for the same reasons bluesman mentions)

Coombes and sam onto the replacement bench.

blues, biggars variety was good yesterday in face of the blue line. also, you seem to think roberts and davies are playing differently than their previous games. they are not.we've always said same old, same old....

roberts from day one has bashed. davies is just not picking the correct angles to get on to the passes in space, as cuthbert did v ireland.
in one breath everyone says our game is predictable , but we won slams with it. now we need plan b

biggar fired that ball out as fast as he could yesterday only for it to die a death. he chipped we gathered then lost it, roberts caught a great garry only to mess it up,

biggar controlled with some good line kicks , varied the depth of his positioning waiting for the ruck ball.

i think the guy is learning pretty damn fast at this level, his second 6ns game. rp hoisted it up and kept the ball ping ponging, at last we've seen the back of that tactic.

getting the back line going means they have to at least come on to the ball.

the centres are doing nothing with it when they get it.
they are both upright runners. cant side step.

nothing has changed. teams know us now. plan b please.

Wales need to select the team for the Italy match as a preparation for the England match in March, this means selecting a physical big and powerful backrow of Coombs at 6, Ryan Jones at 7 and Faletau at 8. Also, the centre pairing needs more muscle to match/deal with the menace of Billy Twelvetrees.

Anyone got an update on Dan Lydiate ? Last thing I read (in mid-Jan) was that he was hoping to be in the frame for Italy

PenfroPete wrote:Anyone got an update on Dan Lydiate ? Last thing I read (in mid-Jan) was that he was hoping to be in the frame for Italy

What is it with Dan Lydiate? Why are people talking him up as some kind of worldbeater?

gboycottnut wrote:Wales need to select the team for the Italy match as a preparation for the England match in March, this means selecting a physical big and powerful backrow of Coombs at 6, Ryan Jones at 7 and Faletau at 8. Also, the centre pairing needs more muscle to match/deal with the menace of Billy Twelvetrees.

No. The Welsh centre pairing does not need more muscle. If it had the muscle to deal with Bastereaud, then it will cope with Billy just fine (if he is even one of England's first choice centres come March 16). If anything it needs a less muscle and a bit of invention, or a change in game plan. Jamie can off load, we saw it SA in 09. But he is too predictable now, crash ball every time.

For Italy, I'd go with: Gethin, Hibbard, Adam, AWJ, Ian Evans, Ryan, Tips, Faletau, Phillips, North, Jamie, JD, Halfpenny, Byrne. With James, Rees, Mitchell, Coombs, Warburton, L. Williams, Hook and Scott on the bench.

I thought Gethin played well yesterday, bar scrum time, so I'd give him a game against Italy with a specialist 2nd row to see what's going wrong at the scrum. Harsh on Coombs, but sometimes you have to be ruthless and I just don't think he has the physicality/dynamism to make an impact at Int level. I considered Hook at 12 to give us some more variety, but I'm not sold on him as a starter so I'd keep going with it as it is with a view to give Hook half an hour, or 25 minutes at 12. I want to see 1/2p on the wing as as solid as he is defensively he doesn't aid our attack much but I wouldn't mind seeing the back 3 kept as it is to be honest. It's the least of our concerns.

biggar at 10 dizzle?

majesticimperialman wrote:Never thought that i would say this but Gethin Jenkins had a fairly good game today.

Wasn't Jenkins a three time grandslam winner an double lions tourist?

I'm sure you have rated him as a top performer before. Therefor being surprised by his performance this week is a bizarre thought. Returning to form maybe a far more appropriate statement.

If you hadn't ever previously rated Jenkins as a great loosehead prop, I would be very very surprised.

gboycottnut wrote:

PenfroPete wrote:Anyone got an update on Dan Lydiate ? Last thing I read (in mid-Jan) was that he was hoping to be in the frame for Italy

What is it with Dan Lydiate? Why are people talking him up as some kind of worldbeater?

Because he is and even with ones' performance yesterday he has been missed by his absence. Most on this board, myself included have played at some level or other but not at the top level.

Its when you listen so players who play at the top level compare him to Richard Hill and the like taht you sit up and take note.

I think Wales should stick with the same side that started against france and bring A-W.Jones and Warburton onto the bench.

Pot Noodle Miner wrote:I think Wales should stick with the same side that started against france and bring A-W.Jones and Warburton onto the bench.

Pot,

I agree but got sneaky feeling both will start but hope I am wrong

bedfordwelsh wrote:

gboycottnut wrote:

PenfroPete wrote:Anyone got an update on Dan Lydiate ? Last thing I read (in mid-Jan) was that he was hoping to be in the frame for Italy

What is it with Dan Lydiate? Why are people talking him up as some kind of worldbeater?

Because he is and even with ones' performance yesterday he has been missed by his absence. Most on this board, myself included have played at some level or other but not at the top level.

Its when you listen so players who play at the top level compare him to Richard Hill and the like taht you sit up and take note.

Maybe for Wales he is a worldbeater, but England have plenty of Dan Lydiate's as backrow options.

oohh!!! I wouldnt throw 'plenty of dan lydiates ' around as such a throw away comment. that guy is unbelievable, believe.

gboycottnut wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

gboycottnut wrote:

PenfroPete wrote:Anyone got an update on Dan Lydiate ? Last thing I read (in mid-Jan) was that he was hoping to be in the frame for Italy

What is it with Dan Lydiate? Why are people talking him up as some kind of worldbeater?

Because he is and even with ones' performance yesterday he has been missed by his absence. Most on this board, myself included have played at some level or other but not at the top level.

Its when you listen so players who play at the top level compare him to Richard Hill and the like taht you sit up and take note.

Maybe for Wales he is a worldbeater, but England have plenty of Dan Lydiate's as backrow options.

Such as .... ?

overlordofthewest wrote:

gboycottnut wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

gboycottnut wrote:

PenfroPete wrote:Anyone got an update on Dan Lydiate ? Last thing I read (in mid-Jan) was that he was hoping to be in the frame for Italy

What is it with Dan Lydiate? Why are people talking him up as some kind of worldbeater?

Because he is and even with ones' performance yesterday he has been missed by his absence. Most on this board, myself included have played at some level or other but not at the top level.

Its when you listen so players who play at the top level compare him to Richard Hill and the like taht you sit up and take note.

Maybe for Wales he is a worldbeater, but England have plenty of Dan Lydiate's as backrow options.

Such as .... ?

Such as the current trio in the England backrow, as well as the backrow players on the reserve bench and many other English players playing in club level rugby.

Well even if that's true, Mr Boycott, none of them are eligible for Wales and this is a thread disussing who we should select for the game against Italy.

What is it with Dan Lydiate? Why are people talking him up as some kind of worldbeater?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/17453529

Yes I guess winning player of the tournament means all the other back row players are better than you...

I hope we're not foolish enough to think we can make half-a-dozen changes for the trip to Rome, which we've done in the past and suffered for. For me, this is a match for the coaches to say 'same again.'

That's not to say that the gameplan shouldn't be tweaked.

Changes for the Italy game, I'd go with.....

1. James
2. Hibbard
3. Jones
4. Coombes
5. Evans
6. R Jones (c)
7. Tips
8. Faletau
9. Phillips
10. Biggar
11. North
12. Roberts
13. JD2
14. Cuthbert
15. Halfpenny

16. Jenkins
17. Owens
18. Mitchell
19. AWJ
20. Warburton
21. Lloyd Williams
22. Hook
23. Byrne


Thats with my 'realistic' glasses on.

The centres have been pants frankly, but they technically improved against France, I'd like to see what they can do against the Italians, who have a very solid and strong tackling midfield.

Coombes deserves to start again, but I'd be looking to give AWJ some gametime and get him in the starting line up ASAP. I've made my thoguhts clear on why on the France vs Wales thread (if you'd like to go deeeper).

James is a stronger scrummager than Gethin, but Geth is getting better game by game (just like in the Ais - however he still shouldnt have been in the sqaud!!!)

Biggar was excellant against France and Phillips is needed atm, and theres no-one better anyway!

Bench options to cover most eventualities and with some experience.

Changes for the Italy game, I'd go with.....

1. James
2. Hibbard
3. Jones
4. Coombes
5. Evans
6. R Jones (c)
7. Tips
8. Faletau
9. Phillips
10. Biggar
11. North
12. Roberts
13. JD2
14. Cuthbert
15. Halfpenny

16. Jenkins
17. Owens
18. Mitchell
19. AWJ
20. Warburton
21. Lloyd Williams
22. Hook
23. Byrne


Thats with my 'realistic' glasses on.

The centres have been pants frankly, but they technically improved against France, I'd like to see what they can do against the Italians, who have a very solid and strong tackling midfield.

Coombes deserves to start again, but I'd be looking to give AWJ some gametime and get him in the starting line up ASAP. I've made my thoguhts clear on why on the France vs Wales thread (if you'd like to go deeeper).

James is a stronger scrummager than Gethin, but Geth is getting better game by game (just like in the Ais - however he still shouldnt have been in the sqaud!!!)

Biggar was excellant against France and Phillips is needed atm, and theres no-one better anyway!

Bench options to cover most eventualities and with some experience.

I'd be happy with that team.

I would be tempted to introduce AWJ.

I didn't think Tipuric made a huge difference. I would start with a fit warburton.