My Roy Jones and Bernard Hopkins conundrum

Afternoon lads, hope the Monday return to work hasn’t hit anyone too hard. There’s little doubt that both Bernard Hopkins and Roy Jones Jr have been two of the premier fighters of the last twenty-five years. The two turned professional at roughly the same time, won their first world titles a couple of years apart and, at different times, have topped many people’s pound for pound lists. Right now, however, their careers couldn’t be at any more of an opposite. Hopkins, a phenomenon at forty-six, has recently become the oldest challenger to win a world title fight in history, whereas Jones has just suffered another clinical knockout loss against a fighter who we can safely assume he would have outclassed in his pomp.

And so on to the question, who ranks higher in the all-time stakes? Ask that question a few years ago, and I imagine the response would have been unanimous; Jones all day and every day. Ask the question in the last two or three years, and most – me included, I’ll quickly add – would have gone with Hopkins. A perfectly understandable view which I’ve had for a while now. But just recently, at the back of my mind, I’ve been wondering; is that really the case? The more I think about it, the more I believe that Jones may still have a claim to be ahead of ‘B-Hop.’

Let’s take care of the simplest of business first. Did either of them score a win over the other while they were in their absolute primes and at the summit of their careers? No. But it’s undeniable that Jones’ 1993 win over Hopkins is a damn sight more significant that Hopkins’ 2010 win over Jones is. One nil to the man from Pensacola, though it’s hardly a sledge hammer blow.

There seems to be a myth growing that Jones’ record is a totally padded one. Now I’ll agree that he does have the odd name missing from his ledger – a win against Michalczewski would have put the icing on his Light-Heavyweight cake, while his subsequent knockout defeats in recent years have resulted in us wondering how he’d have fared between 1993 and 1996 had he found the time to accommodate a murderous puncher such as Nigel Benn, Julian Jackson or Gerald McClellan. Now obviously, considering how McClellan’s career was cut short, it’s a bit of tenuous link, but the point stands all the same.

No such accusations can be aimed towards Hopkins. The Middleweight era which he dominated perhaps wasn’t the strongest, but there was not a single worthwhile contender – and crucially, not a single respected version of the title – that he failed to take care of at some stage. There’s little doubt in my mind that Middleweight and Light-Heavyweight are the two strongest divisions of them all, historically speaking. I have Jones as a borderline top ten man at 175 lb, however I have Hopkins as an absolutely nailed-on top ten man at 160 lb. So Hopkins just about balances the debate.

And now we get to the hardest bit of all – evaluating their respective wins and losses, and trying to find a happy medium in the ratio of ‘great’ to merely ‘good’ wins. Both scored surprise (at the time) wins – and dominant ones at that – against men who were at that time ranked within the top three pound for pound in the world, and were also undefeated; Jones when he dazzled James Toney to a wide, wide points defeat in 1994, and Hopkins when he systematically out-boxed and eventually stopped Felix Trinidad in 2001. Personally, in terms of these singular wins (which I regard as their best respectively, though some I’m sure will disagree) I have to give the edge to Jones’ win over Toney. Was Trinidad a natural Middleweight? No, in all probability. Did he do anything even hinting at greatness after Hopkins beat him? Again, no. On the other hand, while Toney never recaptured his full magic after that 1994 bout, he still picked up world titles at Cruiserweight and (briefly) Heavyweight, scoring wins over sound fighters such as Jirov and, save for an absolutely awful decision in their first bout, Montell Griffin.

Factor in, too, that Jones has that 1993 win over him (the only result of their two fights which matters, realistically speaking) and Hopkins is going to have to go some to get back on an equal footing here. He does a good job, mind you; Antonio Tarver and Kelly Pavlik (though nobody would care to admit it now) were at the low end of quite a few people’s top ten pound for pound lists when Hopkins gave them both bad points beatings. Tarver was certainly ‘the man’ at 175 lb before that 2006 bout, and Pavlik was 34-0 (30) and being touted as an opponent for Joe Calzaghe in 2008 when Hopkins got to him. Throw in the perennially well-ranked William Joppy and Glen Johnson, and his ‘second tier’ of wins are looking every bit as good as Jones’, which read as a forty-year-old Mike McCallum, Reggie Johnson and Virgill Hill, who had perhaps seen better days, too.

However, I just can’t blank out this idea that many of Hopkins other ‘marquee’ opponents were simply over-matched when they faced him. Let’s be frank – Oscar De la Hoya and Winky Wright, wonderful fighters though they were, had absolutely no business at all campaigning at Middleweight and Light-Heavyweight respectively, even if they were bouts which took place at slightly lower catchweights. If we’re going to degrade some of Jones’ wins on the basis that his opponents were a little aged and therefore at a disadvantage (reasonable, of course) then we have to conclude that Hopkins held considerable aces in these fights, too.

Hopkins, of course, has the honour of being the oldest man to be crowned world champion, a wonderful achievement. Of course, Jones made his own little piece of history in 2003 when he became the first man in 106 years to win a Heavyweight title having previously reigned at Middleweight (Toney briefly emulated, mind you, before being stripped for doping). Now I can hear you all scream – “He wasn’t THE Heavyweight champion, though”, and you’re absolutely right. However, I’m still of the opinion that it will be a long, long time before another Middleweight belt holder finds himself taking straps from men weighing more than 220 lb a few years down the line. Yes, Jones’ Middleweight-Heavyweight feat may have been over-played by his most diehard fans, but at the same time some have acted as if it’s nothing to take note of at all – which, if we’re being honest, is absolute nonsense.

Moreover, I can’t ignore the fact that, for a decade between 1993 and 2003, Jones was an utterly, totally and completely dominant pound for pound fighter in a way which Hopkins, quite simply, never has been. Even at his best, Hopkins could be guilty of doing only just enough to win. Jones, on the other hand, seldom lost a round – never mind a fight – when in his prime years. There’s little doubt in my mind that Jones was the more dominant champion of the two, given Hopkins’ woes against Mercado (he may not have been at his best, but was thirty and had big-fight experience with Jones, so no real excuses there) and his inability to get past Taylor on two occasions. Yes, he was forty by then – but his subsequent results since then show that he was nowhere near a ‘shot’ fighter, and as such we can’t ignore those black marks on his record.

I suppose a lot of it depends on how much you stock you put in Jones’ defeats this side of 2004. Personally, given that it’s become apparent that he had next to nothing left after returning from Heavyweight, I’m reluctant to hold them against him (at least anything after Johnson knocked him out), just as I don’t hold Tyson’s losses to Williams or McBride against him, and likewise Whitaker’s defeats to Trinidad and Bojourquez.

After being happy to rank Hopkins ahead of his great rival for quite a while now, I suddenly find myself wondering if that should be the case – what do you make of it? Sorry for the length of the article, lads, but thanks a lot for sticking with me and, if you fancy it, let me know your thoughts.

Cheers, fellas.

Great article I havnt had chance to read it all yet as I gotta get ready to go watch Primal Scream in Cardiff Uni tonight (much beer to be drank). From what I have read il just say that I think Hopkins record is better in the long run

Cheers Steffan, I'm expecting most to side with you and go with Hopkins, which is entirely understandable. Enjoy the gig.

I'm not getting involved, my views on the shockingly overrated RJJ will only serve for me to enter a cage of violent rage. Skills don't seal legacies, beating the best around does and RJJ almost bought boxing to its knees by fighting one crabby "belt contender" after another. Has Toney and not alot else on his record that warrants a top 50 ATG place.

Bhop has gone up in my estimations and ranks quite easily the higher out of the two by a considerable margin.

And this is BASED ON RECORDS. NOT WHO HAD THE MOST SODDING SKILLS.

I might stay off this as it'll be the usual muppets who will proclaim RJJ to be the greater of the 2 "because he had so many skills", shame he refused to sodding fight the sodding best when it really mattered in the late 90's/early/mid 2000s eh.

1. How do you know Hoppo wasn't in his prime against Jones Jr????

I see Hoppo lost so he must have been green. Don't buy it....Great win for Jones jr as is Toney.....

I'd have hopkins and Jones jr around the top 10-15 of alltime greats...Hoppo slightly higher.

Hoppo has done just enough to win for sure but last I heard there was nothing that stated you had to do more than that.....


Like Holy and Ali late in their careers I don't think Jones defeats hurt his legacy and for a guy to go from midd allthe way to heavy is a phenomenal achievement.....

I think the Tarver and Pavlik wins put Hoppo in the superstar category and the last win cements his position..

Two wonderful greats and credits to their sport...

Don't like this green nonsense though....Jones beat a quality Hoppo whoo has always fought the same way. Just wasn't good enough to beat the best fighter with Floyd I've seen in the last 20yrs.

Shockingly overrated.......

Olympic "gold" medallist...Countless world titles!!! Beats Toney and Hoppo in their primes...goes from midd to heavy..

Run along Coxy..

Have to agree with Coxy. Sums it up well. RJJ never took dangerous fights until the money ran out.

Thing is - we all do hold Jones' remarkable slide against him. And we shouldn't - he's better than that.

But if he'd retired at the top of the mountain, having soundly whipped ruiz - or even better, after beating Tarver in a close fight - he's in with a shout as the greatest of all time. He didn't do it - so there are plenty who don't rate him (eg coxy) at all any more. He reigned and reigned well at a weak time in the LHW division and would be a tough fighter for anyone on their day.

Hopkins has the longevity and Hopkins has a win over Pascal as an old man

RJJ has a meaningful win over Hopkins and a huge win over Toney, plus an impressive LHW reign.

At the end of the day, it comes down to personal preference and I don't like Hopkins so I'll go RJJ.

Truss

It wasn't until 2001 that Hoppo fought and beat a HoF worthy fighter in Tito.

Bhop hadn't fought anyone of note and continued to do so for quite a few years after the loss.

RJJ has Toney, and that's about it. Can't classify Bhop as a great win based on what he started to do some 7 years later.

coxy0001 wrote:I'm not getting involved, my views on the shockingly overrated RJJ will only serve for me to enter a cage of violent rage. Skills don't seal legacies, beating the best around does and RJJ almost bought boxing to its knees by fighting one crabby "belt contender" after another. Has Toney and not alot else on his record that warrants a top 50 ATG place.

Bhop has gone up in my estimations and ranks quite easily the higher out of the two by a considerable margin.

And this is BASED ON RECORDS. NOT WHO HAD THE MOST SODDING SKILLS.

I might stay off this as it'll be the usual muppets who will proclaim RJJ to be the greater of the 2 "because he had so many skills", shame he refused to sodding fight the sodding best when it really mattered in the late 90's/early/mid 2000s eh.

Beat James Toney when he was considered pound for pound number one puts your argument to rubbish straightaway. Hopkins beat blown up welterweights/light middles in Trinidad and De La Hoya. Even before the knockout it was a close fight with De La Hoya. Dont give me he was a massive underdog against Trinidad. Trinidad was already exposed by De La Hoya ffs!!! Anyone who knew anything about boxing Trinidad was in for a beating against Hopkins.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Shockingly overrated.......

Olympic "gold" medallist...Countless world titles!!! Beats Toney and Hoppo in their primes...goes from midd to heavy..

Run along Coxy..

In their primes eh? Suppose Bhop was the same fighter in '94 as he was when he beat Tito in '01 then eh? Eh, got an answer? Was Bhop a vastly improved fighter by then and why didn't RJJ want any part of him WHATSOEVER if he was the same BHop he comfortably outpointed first time around!?!!??!!?!?!?!!?!!!

Don't get into arguements with those smarter than you and your polytechnic education Trussie....

coxy0001 wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Shockingly overrated.......

Olympic "gold" medallist...Countless world titles!!! Beats Toney and Hoppo in their primes...goes from midd to heavy..

Run along Coxy..

In their primes eh? Suppose Bhop was the same fighter in '94 as he was when he beat Tito in '01 then eh? Eh, got an answer? Was Bhop a vastly improved fighter by then and why didn't RJJ want any part of him WHATSOEVER if he was the same BHop he comfortably outpointed first time around!?!!??!!?!?!?!!?!!!

Don't get into arguements with those smarter than you and your polytechnic education Trussie....

Erm I think you will find it was Hopkins. He wanted 50-50 why should Jones give him a split when he already beat him!

You're right PBF good post...

Sick to death of donuts disrespecting a guy who beat Toney and Hoppo in their pomps...two of the best fighters of the last twenty years.....

Goes all the way th heavy (which isn't dangerous is it)...

and he doesn't take dangerous fights....

Some muppets on here!!


How long till steroids get mentioned....

Stop disrespecting a bonafide great.

Beat James Toney when he was considered pound for pound number one puts your argument to rubbish straightaway

READ THE WHOLE SODDING POST

I said "HE HAS TONEY"

And everyone knew BHop was gonna give him a beating yeah? http://www.eastsideboxing.com/news.php?p=3346&more=1

WAS a 3/1 underdog and not many gave BHop a prayer. Tito was one of the P4P kings. End of, stop making stuff up and best still just don't bother replying to my posts

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:You're right PBF good post...

Sick to death of donuts disrespecting a guy who beat Toney and Hoppo in their pomps...two of the best fighters of the last twenty years.....

Goes all the way th heavy (which isn't dangerous is it)...

and he doesn't take dangerous fights....

Some muppets on here!!


How long till steroids get mentioned....

Stop disrespecting a bonafide great.

How about you reply to my questions above Truss: You can't can you? Run along now why don't you.

3/1 underdog.....Honey was a 6/1 underdog against Curry..Rosario 4/1 against Bramble....

So what??????

Everyone was an underdog against Jones jr because of his talent!!!!!

3/1 don't sound so bad to me......Hoppo was quality he got beat off the master...

You haven't got a case ....You don't like the guy because of the substance thing..

run along.

coxy0001 wrote:

Beat James Toney when he was considered pound for pound number one puts your argument to rubbish straightaway

READ THE WHOLE SODDING POST

I said "HE HAS TONEY"

And everyone knew BHop was gonna give him a beating yeah? http://www.eastsideboxing.com/news.php?p=3346&more=1

WAS a 3/1 underdog and not many gave BHop a prayer. Tito was one of the P4P kings. End of, stop making stuff up and best still just don't bother replying to my posts

I said everyone who knew anything about BOXING. Trinidad already been slapped by De La Hoya faces a geninune middleweight Hopkins...Hopkins was always going to give him a beating. Before preaching to me READ MY POST AGAIN yourself.

Like I said beat the best already in Toney. Upto to the likes of Hopkins, Calzaghe etc to chase him.

Good article Chris and suspect your quandary is one not unique to yourself. Like you a few years ago this would not have been a question that would have troubled me for any great time but irrespective of what you think of some of Hopkins' tactics to acheive his wins being the man at light heavy at 46 year old is beyond impressive and his wins over Pavlik and Tarver at times they were right up there is equally as impressive.

Also whilst Roy is not the first guy to carry on too long for me some of his losses have to count against him and do call into question his greatness because whilst he has obviously lost a lot of the assets that made him so peerless in his pomp surely one of the hallmarks of greatness is an ability to adjust to compsenate for these losses as Ali did post exile. Is not a lot in it but gun to my head solely on how I feel today would probably give the edge to Bernard, but ask me tomorrow and I may come down in Roy's favour.

Jones is added to Mayweather/Tyson/Bowe as a ducker now...

All Americans are duckers I guess.

The genius of PBF wrote:

coxy0001 wrote:

Beat James Toney when he was considered pound for pound number one puts your argument to rubbish straightaway

READ THE WHOLE SODDING POST

I said "HE HAS TONEY"

And everyone knew BHop was gonna give him a beating yeah? http://www.eastsideboxing.com/news.php?p=3346&more=1

WAS a 3/1 underdog and not many gave BHop a prayer. Tito was one of the P4P kings. End of, stop making stuff up and best still just don't bother replying to my posts

I said everyone who knew anything about BOXING. Trinidad already been slapped by De La Hoya faces a geninune middleweight Hopkins...Hopkins was always going to give him a beating. Before preaching to me READ MY POST AGAIN yourself.

Like I said beat the best already in Toney. Upto to the likes of Hopkins, Calzaghe etc to chase him.

They probably would have chased him if he didn't run so fast. Glass chinned show pony. A weight drained Toney and still green bummer doesn't look great. Only once fought the best at his weight and even that was 12 months too late.

Some good debate being garnered, lads, so I'm happy. I'd agree that the idea of Jones never taking risks has been blown out of proportion a little; Johnson, Griffin, Hill and Woods, for me, aren't exactly left eating the dust of De la Hoya (the 160 lb version), Joppy, Holmes and Tarver.

I think that, from the outset, Hopkins may have the more eye-catching resume, but as I said in the article, I just can't ignore how utterly dominant Jones was for such a long period of time, in a way which Hopkins never was. That matters little in the long run, I suppose, but I'm happy to state that when taking everything in to consideration, Hopkins, at best, can only be marginally ahead of Jones if he is at all, rather than the clear margin some have indicated in recent times.

Chris

I never rated Tarver and Pavlik, always thought Hopkins would do a number on them.

He's finished Rowley!!!!! Ali adjusted to Holmes and Berbick didn't he!!

Just as washed up........Honey-Breland ring any bells...

Robinson lost to Fullmer, Pender etc etc...Let's question his greatness!!

Accoding to your theory we should!!!

Pavlik and Tarver were the dominant men at their weight PBF and the fact a 42+ yr old beat them convincingly means they are career defining wins...

As Hill should be for Hearns!!!!

Great wins for Hoppo..

Michaels, Sean wrote:

The genius of PBF wrote:

coxy0001 wrote:

Beat James Toney when he was considered pound for pound number one puts your argument to rubbish straightaway

READ THE WHOLE SODDING POST

I said "HE HAS TONEY"

And everyone knew BHop was gonna give him a beating yeah? http://www.eastsideboxing.com/news.php?p=3346&more=1

WAS a 3/1 underdog and not many gave BHop a prayer. Tito was one of the P4P kings. End of, stop making stuff up and best still just don't bother replying to my posts

I said everyone who knew anything about BOXING. Trinidad already been slapped by De La Hoya faces a geninune middleweight Hopkins...Hopkins was always going to give him a beating. Before preaching to me READ MY POST AGAIN yourself.

Like I said beat the best already in Toney. Upto to the likes of Hopkins, Calzaghe etc to chase him.

They probably would have chased him if he didn't run so fast. Glass chinned show pony. A weight drained Toney and still green bummer doesn't look great. Only once fought the best at his weight and even that was 12 months too late.

Your right Roy Jones is a bum who cant take a punch which is why no one could knock him out or beat him till he was 35.

Truss not talking about the recent losses to Green and Dennis L because they are obviously just a case of him carryin on too long was more refering to the Tarver and Johnson losses which are a time where he should still have had something left or certainly enough to make adjustments. Pretty much post exile onwards Ali has lost a lot of speed but made adjustments and got wins over Foreman and Frazier amongst others. Don't especially mark Roy down for Green, Calzaghe and Dennis anymore than I mark Ali down for Berbick and Holmes but have to count Tarver and Johnson against him.

You can invent stuff in anybody's record PBF.........

Frazier was just a crude slugger
Foreman was green
Liston was limited...........= Ali being "Shockingly overrated"

Or you can be normal and not be an idiot..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Pavlik and Tarver were the dominant men at their weight PBF and the fact a 42+ yr old beat them convincingly means they are career defining wins...

As Hill should be for Hearns!!!!

Great wins for Hoppo..

I give Hopkins credit and he deserves it but dont rate the likes of Tarver and Pavlik. Wouldn't call Tarver dominant had a defeat and win against Johnson and made his career living off a win over a faded Jones.

Remember Pavlik was a fight made at 170 and Pavlik was a middleweight moving up.

The genius of PBF wrote:

Michaels, Sean wrote:

The genius of PBF wrote:

coxy0001 wrote:

Beat James Toney when he was considered pound for pound number one puts your argument to rubbish straightaway

READ THE WHOLE SODDING POST

I said "HE HAS TONEY"

And everyone knew BHop was gonna give him a beating yeah? http://www.eastsideboxing.com/news.php?p=3346&more=1

WAS a 3/1 underdog and not many gave BHop a prayer. Tito was one of the P4P kings. End of, stop making stuff up and best still just don't bother replying to my posts

I said everyone who knew anything about BOXING. Trinidad already been slapped by De La Hoya faces a geninune middleweight Hopkins...Hopkins was always going to give him a beating. Before preaching to me READ MY POST AGAIN yourself.

Like I said beat the best already in Toney. Upto to the likes of Hopkins, Calzaghe etc to chase him.

They probably would have chased him if he didn't run so fast. Glass chinned show pony. A weight drained Toney and still green bummer doesn't look great. Only once fought the best at his weight and even that was 12 months too late.

Your right Roy Jones is a bum who cant take a punch which is why no one could knock him out or beat him till he was 35.

I knew you'd come to my way of thinking. Americans, not being the sharpest tools in the shed, are easily influenced.

3/1 underdog.....Honey was a 6/1 underdog against Curry..Rosario 4/1 against Bramble....

So what??????

Thanks for proving my point!

Guys weren't expected to beat their respective oppo hence why their odds were so long in what is in essence a 2 horse race.

Wasn't expected to beat Tito, hadn't done anything to warrant being given a chance (and Shantel, no-one gave him a chance - find me a source (like i've done) that suggest otherwise please. See, i've got proof - you as usual have sweet nada) barring a run of alphabet contender wins.

Again, the money fight for RJJ was Bhop but he didn't want any part of him through the turn of the millenium up until 2010 when the money was drying up. BHop was a big enough name for DLH, why not RJJ?

I'm pretty much done on this subject. Have always said i give him Toney, but saying BHop is a fine win is nonsense as his record was such that he was considered to be anything until he beat Tito all the way along the line in '01.

The likes of Greb, Sanchez, Chaves and 10s of other names are considered ATGs because of who they beat & when they beat them. Might as well have Hatton as an ATG as he beat the #2 P4P fighter and not alot else.

He was at the top without getting beat Rowley for 10 years from 1994-2004 (Disq defeat not withstanding)....Beating Toney and Hoppo along the way winning titles at different weights and ruling as long as Joe Louis who you say is great whilst beating better opposition....

So tell me seeing as Louis lost to Charles and Marciano after ruling for the same amount of time..

why is he great?? and Jones isn't....

Bull and you know it.

Truss please direct me to the point where I have said I don't consider Jones great. Is it not equally as possible I consider them both great but it just so happens at this point I consider Hopkins slightly greater, which was after all the question originally posed. If you would actually take the time to read and consider peoples posts rather than responding with your usual combination of bluster and ill manners I am sure a man as proud as you of his education would be able to work this out.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:He was at the top without getting beat Rowley for 10 years from 1994-2004 (Disq defeat not withstanding)....Beating Toney and Hoppo along the way winning titles at different weights and ruling as long as Joe Louis who you say is great whilst beating better opposition....

So tell me seeing as Louis lost to Charles and Marciano after ruling for the same amount of time..

why is he great?? and Jones isn't....

Bull and you know it.

Ottke wasn't beaten for a similar amount of time. He picked a nice little route through the divisions avoiding all the big hitters until he ran out of cash.

He knew he couldn't live with a puncher after Gerhard McClaren had sparked him in the amateurs

coxy0001 wrote:

3/1 underdog.....Honey was a 6/1 underdog against Curry..Rosario 4/1 against Bramble....

So what??????

Thanks for proving my point!

Guys weren't expected to beat their respective oppo hence why their odds were so long in what is in essence a 2 horse race.

Wasn't expected to beat Tito, hadn't done anything to warrant being given a chance (and Shantel, no-one gave him a chance - find me a source (like i've done) that suggest otherwise please. See, i've got proof - you as usual have sweet nada) barring a run of alphabet contender wins.

Again, the money fight for RJJ was Bhop but he didn't want any part of him through the turn of the millenium up until 2010 when the money was drying up. BHop was a big enough name for DLH, why not RJJ?

I'm pretty much done on this subject. Have always said i give him Toney, but saying BHop is a fine win is nonsense as his record was such that he was considered to be anything until he beat Tito all the way along the line in '01.

The likes of Greb, Sanchez, Chaves and 10s of other names are considered ATGs because of who they beat & when they beat them. Might as well have Hatton as an ATG as he beat the #2 P4P fighter and not alot else.

It was Hopkins who avoided it why didn't he take 60-40? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye87owFNrCI

Jones was the draw and had a win over Hopkins so I think you will find it was Hopkins who ducked the fight.

Wow you got a eastside boxing article.

Beat a blown up welter that got exposed by De La Hoya yeah Hopkins beating him really shocked the world like Ali/Foreman.

Lads - love the debate but please make sure we debate the topic, not other posters.

Many thanks

Michaels, Sean wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:He was at the top without getting beat Rowley for 10 years from 1994-2004 (Disq defeat not withstanding)....Beating Toney and Hoppo along the way winning titles at different weights and ruling as long as Joe Louis who you say is great whilst beating better opposition....

So tell me seeing as Louis lost to Charles and Marciano after ruling for the same amount of time..

why is he great?? and Jones isn't....

Bull and you know it.

Ottke wasn't beaten for a similar amount of time. He picked a nice little route through the divisions avoiding all the big hitters until he ran out of cash.

He knew he couldn't live with a puncher after Gerhard McClaren had sparked him in the amateurs

Ottke had a few gifted wins didnt he? Did Ottke dominate fighters like Jones? Stupid comparison

The genius of PBF wrote:

coxy0001 wrote:

3/1 underdog.....Honey was a 6/1 underdog against Curry..Rosario 4/1 against Bramble....

So what??????

Thanks for proving my point!

Guys weren't expected to beat their respective oppo hence why their odds were so long in what is in essence a 2 horse race.

Wasn't expected to beat Tito, hadn't done anything to warrant being given a chance (and Shantel, no-one gave him a chance - find me a source (like i've done) that suggest otherwise please. See, i've got proof - you as usual have sweet nada) barring a run of alphabet contender wins.

Again, the money fight for RJJ was Bhop but he didn't want any part of him through the turn of the millenium up until 2010 when the money was drying up. BHop was a big enough name for DLH, why not RJJ?

I'm pretty much done on this subject. Have always said i give him Toney, but saying BHop is a fine win is nonsense as his record was such that he was considered to be anything until he beat Tito all the way along the line in '01.

The likes of Greb, Sanchez, Chaves and 10s of other names are considered ATGs because of who they beat & when they beat them. Might as well have Hatton as an ATG as he beat the #2 P4P fighter and not alot else.

It was Hopkins who avoided it why didn't he take 60-40? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye87owFNrCI

Jones was the draw and had a win over Hopkins so I think you will find it was Hopkins who ducked the fight.

Wow you got a eastside boxing article.

Beat a blown up welter that got exposed by De La Hoya yeah Hopkins beating him really shocked the world like Ali/Foreman.

Want me to find some other articles then about how he was the underdog against Tito? Ok!

http://sports.yahoo.com/box/blog/box_experts/post/Upsets-of-the-decade?urn=box-204972

Everyone must've been giving BHop so much of a chance it didn't make the respeceted Martin Rogers list of the top upsets from the decade!?!?!!??!!? You need to stop making stuff up sunshine, really doesn't do anything for your already floundering reputation.

And you seem to ignore that BHop WAS a big enough oppo for DLH yet wasn't for RJJ. Didn't that fight do 1,000,000 PPV buys in America? Face facts, BHop held command after wins over two P4P and PPV kings to ask for 50-50.

The genius of PBF wrote:

Michaels, Sean wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:He was at the top without getting beat Rowley for 10 years from 1994-2004 (Disq defeat not withstanding)....Beating Toney and Hoppo along the way winning titles at different weights and ruling as long as Joe Louis who you say is great whilst beating better opposition....

So tell me seeing as Louis lost to Charles and Marciano after ruling for the same amount of time..

why is he great?? and Jones isn't....

Bull and you know it.

Ottke wasn't beaten for a similar amount of time. He picked a nice little route through the divisions avoiding all the big hitters until he ran out of cash.

He knew he couldn't live with a puncher after Gerhard McClaren had sparked him in the amateurs

Ottke had a few gifted wins didnt he? Did Ottke dominate fighters like Jones? Stupid comparison

When I'm comparing their respective match making in their prime, not really.

It's like I said, Jones was a show pony. Never took a risk as he couldn't take a shot. I'd put him in the same bracket as Johnny Nelson.

Michaels, Sean wrote:It's like I said, Jones was a show pony. Never took a risk as he couldn't take a shot. I'd put him in the same bracket as Johnny Nelson.

Johnny Nelson? Do you really believe that or are you wumming for attention?

Toney, Hill, McCallum, Ruiz, Hopkins weren't risks then?

oxring wrote:

Michaels, Sean wrote:It's like I said, Jones was a show pony. Never took a risk as he couldn't take a shot. I'd put him in the same bracket as Johnny Nelson.

Johnny Nelson? Do you really believe that or are you wumming for attention?

Toney, Hill, McCallum, Ruiz, Hopkins weren't risks then?

Take your MOD hat off for a moment and realise that not everything is WUMMING for your attention.

Johnny Nelson's reign robbed the boxing public, so did RJJ's career. Missed far too many matches.

Toney weight drained, Ruiz worst HW ever, Hopkins green.

Michaels, Sean wrote:Take your MOD hat off for a moment and realise that not everything is WUMMING for your attention.

Johnny Nelson's reign robbed the boxing public, so did RJJ's career. Missed far too many matches.

Right. Cos that isn't quite what you said before is it.

Saying Nelson = RJJ implies they were on the same level. Johnny bless him isn't fit to lace RJJs boots.

Saying you believe both robbed the boxing public is a much more accurate reflection of your opinion and I thank you for it.

On another note.

Please people - debate the topic not each other's characters.

coxy0001 wrote:

The genius of PBF wrote:

coxy0001 wrote:

3/1 underdog.....Honey was a 6/1 underdog against Curry..Rosario 4/1 against Bramble....

So what??????

Thanks for proving my point!

Guys weren't expected to beat their respective oppo hence why their odds were so long in what is in essence a 2 horse race.

Wasn't expected to beat Tito, hadn't done anything to warrant being given a chance (and Shantel, no-one gave him a chance - find me a source (like i've done) that suggest otherwise please. See, i've got proof - you as usual have sweet nada) barring a run of alphabet contender wins.

Again, the money fight for RJJ was Bhop but he didn't want any part of him through the turn of the millenium up until 2010 when the money was drying up. BHop was a big enough name for DLH, why not RJJ?

I'm pretty much done on this subject. Have always said i give him Toney, but saying BHop is a fine win is nonsense as his record was such that he was considered to be anything until he beat Tito all the way along the line in '01.

The likes of Greb, Sanchez, Chaves and 10s of other names are considered ATGs because of who they beat & when they beat them. Might as well have Hatton as an ATG as he beat the #2 P4P fighter and not alot else.

It was Hopkins who avoided it why didn't he take 60-40? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye87owFNrCI

Jones was the draw and had a win over Hopkins so I think you will find it was Hopkins who ducked the fight.

Wow you got a eastside boxing article.

Beat a blown up welter that got exposed by De La Hoya yeah Hopkins beating him really shocked the world like Ali/Foreman.

Want me to find some other articles then about how he was the underdog against Tito? Ok!

http://sports.yahoo.com/box/blog/box_experts/post/Upsets-of-the-decade?urn=box-204972

Everyone must've been giving BHop so much of a chance it didn't make the respeceted Martin Rogers list of the top upsets from the decade!?!?!!??!!? You need to stop making stuff up sunshine, really doesn't do anything for your already floundering reputation.

And you seem to ignore that BHop WAS a big enough oppo for DLH yet wasn't for RJJ. Didn't that fight do 1,000,000 PPV buys in America? Face facts, BHop held command after wins over two P4P and PPV kings to ask for 50-50.

De La Hoya vs Mayorga nearly did 1m ppv buys also the fact the fight was in 2004 against Hopkins makes you point invalid. De La Hoya fights sell

I think it is you that needs to face facts, in 2004 no one wanted to see Jones vs Hopkins after getting slapped off by Tarver. Why didn't Hopkins agree 60-40 when both had wins over p4p over Toney and Trinidad and already a loss to Jones? No point bringing up the De La Hoya fight as a measuring stick when the fight should have happened before then and the general public was calling it before 2004.

I dont care how many articles you bring up me and who else knows stuff about boxing knew Hopkins would destroy Trinidad especially after he got exposed by De La Hoya. Your reputation is so great you got voted off 606. Lets laud Calzaghe's win over Lacy in the same way as I recall most people apart from the ones who know about boxing picked Lacy.

Shantel

Was an upset of the year, deal with it. General consensus prior to the fight was that BHop loses to Tito, i can't think of anyone who was picking Bhop. And bearing in mind neither you or i can prove who we picked it's only sensible to go on the many many articles i could pull up about what the consensus ACTUALLY WAS.

By all means go find me articles from "people in the know" who picked Bhop with a massively great conviction.

Bhop vs Taylor did 500k PPV buys as well, and the latter never did big numbers.

And he wanted RJJ from the moment he got beat up until they finally got it on last year. RJJ however wanted nothing to do with him even when his PPV status had severely diminished, took him an eternity to get back into the ring with him.

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/jd92601.htm

So im guessing you picked Trinidad to beat Hopkins? As you can see people who know about boxing were the ones that picked Hopkins. Again Coxy the Hopkins vs Taylor fight was in 2005 if Hopkins did any numbers before the De La Hoya fight in 2004 show me. Jones had every right to ask for 60-40 more so than Hopkins 50-50. If Hopkins really wanted the fight he would have taken 60-40. I believe Hopkins knew he had no chance as long as Jones was anything near his best.

Yep Jones was a bigger name and the primary seller end of...60-40 sounds good to me..

Go easy when rebutting Coxy.....Old adage.....never murder a guy committing suicide.

The genius of PBF wrote:http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/jd92601.htm

So im guessing you picked Trinidad to beat Hopkins? As you can see people who know about boxing were the ones that picked Hopkins. Again Coxy the Hopkins vs Taylor fight was in 2005 if Hopkins did any numbers before the De La Hoya fight in 2004 show me. Jones had every right to ask for 60-40 more so than Hopkins 50-50. If Hopkins really wanted the fight he would have taken 60-40. I believe Hopkins knew he had no chance as long as Jones was anything near his best.

Me along with 99% of the boxing community yup. Thanks for your excellent link to that excellent boxing website.

And here's something i found, naturally it's pretty hard to go back 'that' far:

Hopkins-Trinidad: 480,000 buys

Jones-Toney: 300,000 buys

And against common opponents there record is pretty much identical regarding PPV numbers.

Bearing in mind Jones vs Toney did 300,000 and Bhop vs Tito did 480,000 i somehow think he was in a half decent bargaining position and RJJ constantly priced himself out of the fight. Game, set, match.

I picked Hoppo to beat him.......too big.

99%!!! nothing like substantiating your arguments with facts is there!!!

Not in Coxy-land..

Truss, sadly i can't put an exact figure on it and it was meant as a p**s take. But general consensus was Tito wins. This is based on it being ranked and remembered as an upset and why Tito was 1/3

Unfortunately t'was 10 years ago.

Oh it was p**s take....

Your whole history on 606 is one big p**s take pal...

Hate to break it to you like this..... 8)

coxy0001 wrote:

The genius of PBF wrote:http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/jd92601.htm

So im guessing you picked Trinidad to beat Hopkins? As you can see people who know about boxing were the ones that picked Hopkins. Again Coxy the Hopkins vs Taylor fight was in 2005 if Hopkins did any numbers before the De La Hoya fight in 2004 show me. Jones had every right to ask for 60-40 more so than Hopkins 50-50. If Hopkins really wanted the fight he would have taken 60-40. I believe Hopkins knew he had no chance as long as Jones was anything near his best.

Me along with 99% of the boxing community yup. Thanks for your excellent link to that excellent boxing website.

And here's something i found, naturally it's pretty hard to go back 'that' far:

Hopkins-Trinidad: 480,000 buys

Jones-Toney: 300,000 buys

And against common opponents there record is pretty much identical regarding PPV numbers.

Bearing in mind Jones vs Toney did 300,000 and Bhop vs Tito did 480,000 i somehow think he was in a half decent bargaining position and RJJ constantly priced himself out of the fight. Game, set, match.

33-15 coxy hardly 99% isit, like I said the people who know about boxing backed Hopkins against Trinidad. At least give me a link to the ppv numbers.

60-40 is hardly pricing yourself out when you are considered the man.