My Roy Jones and Bernard Hopkins conundrum

First topic message reminder :

Afternoon lads, hope the Monday return to work hasn’t hit anyone too hard. There’s little doubt that both Bernard Hopkins and Roy Jones Jr have been two of the premier fighters of the last twenty-five years. The two turned professional at roughly the same time, won their first world titles a couple of years apart and, at different times, have topped many people’s pound for pound lists. Right now, however, their careers couldn’t be at any more of an opposite. Hopkins, a phenomenon at forty-six, has recently become the oldest challenger to win a world title fight in history, whereas Jones has just suffered another clinical knockout loss against a fighter who we can safely assume he would have outclassed in his pomp.

And so on to the question, who ranks higher in the all-time stakes? Ask that question a few years ago, and I imagine the response would have been unanimous; Jones all day and every day. Ask the question in the last two or three years, and most – me included, I’ll quickly add – would have gone with Hopkins. A perfectly understandable view which I’ve had for a while now. But just recently, at the back of my mind, I’ve been wondering; is that really the case? The more I think about it, the more I believe that Jones may still have a claim to be ahead of ‘B-Hop.’

Let’s take care of the simplest of business first. Did either of them score a win over the other while they were in their absolute primes and at the summit of their careers? No. But it’s undeniable that Jones’ 1993 win over Hopkins is a damn sight more significant that Hopkins’ 2010 win over Jones is. One nil to the man from Pensacola, though it’s hardly a sledge hammer blow.

There seems to be a myth growing that Jones’ record is a totally padded one. Now I’ll agree that he does have the odd name missing from his ledger – a win against Michalczewski would have put the icing on his Light-Heavyweight cake, while his subsequent knockout defeats in recent years have resulted in us wondering how he’d have fared between 1993 and 1996 had he found the time to accommodate a murderous puncher such as Nigel Benn, Julian Jackson or Gerald McClellan. Now obviously, considering how McClellan’s career was cut short, it’s a bit of tenuous link, but the point stands all the same.

No such accusations can be aimed towards Hopkins. The Middleweight era which he dominated perhaps wasn’t the strongest, but there was not a single worthwhile contender – and crucially, not a single respected version of the title – that he failed to take care of at some stage. There’s little doubt in my mind that Middleweight and Light-Heavyweight are the two strongest divisions of them all, historically speaking. I have Jones as a borderline top ten man at 175 lb, however I have Hopkins as an absolutely nailed-on top ten man at 160 lb. So Hopkins just about balances the debate.

And now we get to the hardest bit of all – evaluating their respective wins and losses, and trying to find a happy medium in the ratio of ‘great’ to merely ‘good’ wins. Both scored surprise (at the time) wins – and dominant ones at that – against men who were at that time ranked within the top three pound for pound in the world, and were also undefeated; Jones when he dazzled James Toney to a wide, wide points defeat in 1994, and Hopkins when he systematically out-boxed and eventually stopped Felix Trinidad in 2001. Personally, in terms of these singular wins (which I regard as their best respectively, though some I’m sure will disagree) I have to give the edge to Jones’ win over Toney. Was Trinidad a natural Middleweight? No, in all probability. Did he do anything even hinting at greatness after Hopkins beat him? Again, no. On the other hand, while Toney never recaptured his full magic after that 1994 bout, he still picked up world titles at Cruiserweight and (briefly) Heavyweight, scoring wins over sound fighters such as Jirov and, save for an absolutely awful decision in their first bout, Montell Griffin.

Factor in, too, that Jones has that 1993 win over him (the only result of their two fights which matters, realistically speaking) and Hopkins is going to have to go some to get back on an equal footing here. He does a good job, mind you; Antonio Tarver and Kelly Pavlik (though nobody would care to admit it now) were at the low end of quite a few people’s top ten pound for pound lists when Hopkins gave them both bad points beatings. Tarver was certainly ‘the man’ at 175 lb before that 2006 bout, and Pavlik was 34-0 (30) and being touted as an opponent for Joe Calzaghe in 2008 when Hopkins got to him. Throw in the perennially well-ranked William Joppy and Glen Johnson, and his ‘second tier’ of wins are looking every bit as good as Jones’, which read as a forty-year-old Mike McCallum, Reggie Johnson and Virgill Hill, who had perhaps seen better days, too.

However, I just can’t blank out this idea that many of Hopkins other ‘marquee’ opponents were simply over-matched when they faced him. Let’s be frank – Oscar De la Hoya and Winky Wright, wonderful fighters though they were, had absolutely no business at all campaigning at Middleweight and Light-Heavyweight respectively, even if they were bouts which took place at slightly lower catchweights. If we’re going to degrade some of Jones’ wins on the basis that his opponents were a little aged and therefore at a disadvantage (reasonable, of course) then we have to conclude that Hopkins held considerable aces in these fights, too.

Hopkins, of course, has the honour of being the oldest man to be crowned world champion, a wonderful achievement. Of course, Jones made his own little piece of history in 2003 when he became the first man in 106 years to win a Heavyweight title having previously reigned at Middleweight (Toney briefly emulated, mind you, before being stripped for doping). Now I can hear you all scream – “He wasn’t THE Heavyweight champion, though”, and you’re absolutely right. However, I’m still of the opinion that it will be a long, long time before another Middleweight belt holder finds himself taking straps from men weighing more than 220 lb a few years down the line. Yes, Jones’ Middleweight-Heavyweight feat may have been over-played by his most diehard fans, but at the same time some have acted as if it’s nothing to take note of at all – which, if we’re being honest, is absolute nonsense.

Moreover, I can’t ignore the fact that, for a decade between 1993 and 2003, Jones was an utterly, totally and completely dominant pound for pound fighter in a way which Hopkins, quite simply, never has been. Even at his best, Hopkins could be guilty of doing only just enough to win. Jones, on the other hand, seldom lost a round – never mind a fight – when in his prime years. There’s little doubt in my mind that Jones was the more dominant champion of the two, given Hopkins’ woes against Mercado (he may not have been at his best, but was thirty and had big-fight experience with Jones, so no real excuses there) and his inability to get past Taylor on two occasions. Yes, he was forty by then – but his subsequent results since then show that he was nowhere near a ‘shot’ fighter, and as such we can’t ignore those black marks on his record.

I suppose a lot of it depends on how much you stock you put in Jones’ defeats this side of 2004. Personally, given that it’s become apparent that he had next to nothing left after returning from Heavyweight, I’m reluctant to hold them against him (at least anything after Johnson knocked him out), just as I don’t hold Tyson’s losses to Williams or McBride against him, and likewise Whitaker’s defeats to Trinidad and Bojourquez.

After being happy to rank Hopkins ahead of his great rival for quite a while now, I suddenly find myself wondering if that should be the case – what do you make of it? Sorry for the length of the article, lads, but thanks a lot for sticking with me and, if you fancy it, let me know your thoughts.

Cheers, fellas.

Thanks for coming back to me with a boxing related arguement Truss. Tito favourite, everyone backing him and was and still is regarded an upset.

p.s. How many retirement threads have you written due to the mocking you took over your outlandish and frankly ignorant yeehah American views?

Many thanks

coxy0001 wrote:Thanks for coming back to me with a boxing related arguement Truss. Tito favourite, everyone backing him and was and still is regarded an upset.

p.s. How many retirement threads have you written due to the mocking you took over your outlandish and frankly ignorant yeehah American views?

Many thanks

Coxy link please???

Thanks for coming back to me with a boxing related arguement Truss. Tito favourite, everyone backing him and was and still is regarded an upset.
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That against Hopkins? if so it was a huge, huge upset, Trinidad was about 1/3 on, Hopkins 11/4

Also coxy Trinidad already had PPV exposure against De La Hoya didn't they break the record for non heavyweight ppv numbers? He sold the fight not Hopkins!!!

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/John_Ruiz_vs._Roy_Jones_Jr.

Google searched Ruiz vs Jones Jr ppv numbers and on here it states it did around 600,000.

Game, set and match to me.

be humble in victory.....remember you're American!

Has to be Hopkins for me and by a considerable margin too far many different reasons

Dominated the middleweight division beating everyone there was to beat there and whatever your opinion on the matter Jones did not do the same at any weight especially at Light Heavyweight where a DM fight never materialised for whatever reason.

The win over Ruiz is blown out of all proportion as well, the guy was a limited next to useless fighter who would have been soundly beaten by anyone at Light Heavyweight or above with an ounce of skill, the fact Jones picked up a portion of the heavyweight title in beating him doesn't mean a lot.

Hopkins has managed to stay at the top despite his advancing years, wins over Tarver, Wright, Pavlik, Pascal and a close loss to Calzaghe while into his 40's cannot be underestimated, he aged far better than Jones who at no point showed any ability to adapt.

Jones may have the more eye catching style and two great looking wins over Toney and Hopkins but aside from that BHOP trumps him in every area.

Domination, longevity and a willingness to fight the best

Hopkins- Borderline top 20
Jones jr- Top 40

The genius of PBF wrote:http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/John_Ruiz_vs._Roy_Jones_Jr.

Google searched Ruiz vs Jones Jr ppv numbers and on here it states it did around 600,000.

Game, set and match to me.

How is that game set and match? Because a heavyweight fight will sell more by the nature of the casual armchair fan generally buying into the "big guys" more - and that fact stands up when you look at the top 10 PPV buys.

You said Hopkins wasn't enough of a PPV star. I countered that you'd be surprised at how many Bhop has done in your "60-40 was good enough"

And here's your link:

http://www.fighthype.com/pages/content1828.html

Jones top 40!!!!

Ha ha ha......

Both top 15..................

Jones was unbeaten at the top level from 1994-2004...

How many top 30 guys were unbeaten for that long...

Joke.

Suppose I better go home now even though I don't want to....

Hormonal wife, cocky spoilt little brat, interfering father-in-law, posh...up their-own backside moronic neighbors......no dog to kick...

More homesick everyday!!!

coxy0001 wrote:

The genius of PBF wrote:http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/John_Ruiz_vs._Roy_Jones_Jr.

Google searched Ruiz vs Jones Jr ppv numbers and on here it states it did around 600,000.

Game, set and match to me.

How is that game set and match? Because a heavyweight fight will sell more by the nature of the casual armchair fan generally buying into the "big guys" more - and that fact stands up when you look at the top 10 PPV buys.

You said Hopkins wasn't enough of a PPV star. I countered that you'd be surprised at how many Bhop has done in your "60-40 was good enough"

And here's your link:

http://www.fighthype.com/pages/content1828.html

I said game set and match because you said it first to me!!! It was a tongue in cheek comment coxy. He did 600,000 against John Ruiz of all people. Which says enough to me that Roy Jones is the bigger draw as he was the draw for his fight with Ruiz whereas Trinidad after De La Hoya exposure was the draw for the Hopkins fight. Roy Jones is a bigger name then Hopkins although I have Hopkins ahead in the ATG rankings. Hopkins should have taken 60-40 but avoided it I feel as he knew at that stage Jones had too much for him.

Thanks for the link took you a while to find it!

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Suppose I better go home now even though I don't want to....

Hormonal wife, cocky spoilt little brat, interfering father-in-law, posh...up their-own backside moronic neighbors......no dog to kick...

More homesick everyday!!!

I hope that's why you kicked off like you did.... RJJ still massively overrated. Good evening to you.

Coxy

The fact that the shot versions of Jones vs Trinidad did more than Hopkins vs Trinidad in their primes says it all.

I hope that's why you kicked off like you did.... RJJ still massively overrated. Good evening to you.
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Totally agree, i just can't see past him being wiped out by the limited Tarver and Glen Johnson. Quality fighter but not as good as people say imo.

OK guys.

Its not hard to see that Jones was pretty faded when he fought Tarver the first time, let alone the second. His coach (who's name eludes me - Merkelson or something?) said he was getting caught with punches he didn't use to be. So lets stop pretending that was prime jones.

And that "limited" Ruiz has wins over Holyfield, Rahman, Oqendon and a faded Tucker and a powerpunching Thunder. Which isn't all that awful. The win over Ruiz was both legitimate and hugely impressive. First MW to win a portion at HW since Fitzsimmons. Says it all.

OK guys.

Its not hard to see that Jones was pretty faded when he fought Tarver the first time, let alone the second. His coach (who's name eludes me - Merkelson or something?) said he was getting caught with punches he didn't use to be. So lets stop pretending that was prime jones.

And that "limited" Ruiz has wins over Holyfield, Rahman, Oqendon and a faded Tucker and a powerpunching Thunder. Which isn't all that awful. The win over Ruiz was both legitimate and hugely impressive. First MW to win a portion at HW since Fitzsimmons. Says it all.
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The same Ruiz who if a fighter had even a tiny bit of speed and could evade a shot they would win. He lost to Tarver, who beat him in the original fight as well imo, as Antonio said 'You got any excuses tonight, Roy?', i agree with that statement with regards to the latter stage of his career, Roy is a brilliant fighter, especially from 94-04, he schooled Hopkins, Toney which is brilliant, he should be in the HOF but is overrated of some imo.

Everyone doesn't rate Ruiz (myself included). However - that's mostly because he was so death-defyingly dull to watch. He did use to win a fair few fights. Tarver lost the first fight - RJJ needed to retire there and then. He didn't and his legacy has suffered.

Nice RJJ career summary video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nM6yMAvwjkE

Y'all must've forgot https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWIqZKhNY90

The genius of PBF wrote:

coxy0001 wrote:

The genius of PBF wrote:http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/John_Ruiz_vs._Roy_Jones_Jr.

Google searched Ruiz vs Jones Jr ppv numbers and on here it states it did around 600,000.

Game, set and match to me.

How is that game set and match? Because a heavyweight fight will sell more by the nature of the casual armchair fan generally buying into the "big guys" more - and that fact stands up when you look at the top 10 PPV buys.

You said Hopkins wasn't enough of a PPV star. I countered that you'd be surprised at how many Bhop has done in your "60-40 was good enough"

And here's your link:

http://www.fighthype.com/pages/content1828.html

I said game set and match because you said it first to me!!! It was a tongue in cheek comment coxy. He did 600,000 against John Ruiz of all people. Which says enough to me that Roy Jones is the bigger draw as he was the draw for his fight with Ruiz whereas Trinidad after De La Hoya exposure was the draw for the Hopkins fight. Roy Jones is a bigger name then Hopkins although I have Hopkins ahead in the ATG rankings. Hopkins should have taken 60-40 but avoided it I feel as he knew at that stage Jones had too much for him.

Thanks for the link took you a while to find it!

Apologies for getting into my car and heading off from work to pop out for a bike ride in the wet!

As my final comment on the matter (as we're going round in circles a bit): There respective PPV 'careers' are quite similar in terms of numbers. Tito did 500k against most people barring DLH when they did huge numbers. Fact is DLH sold big, Tito would always sell semi-big - Imagine if Hatton came back now against say Morales (which has been muted by Schaefer) - that would still do huge numbers this side of the pond, agreed? Which kinda ties into your other post about the RJJ/BHop numbers.

RJJ in the 60 range, BHop in the top 40 for me personally (ATG list)

I think this is all a matter of opinion as to what people rate higher, longevity of a fighter or their peak. For me Jones from about 94-2001 was a better fighter than Hopkins at his very best. However what Hopkins has achieved at his age is truly remarkable, to still be competing at the top level like say Glen Johnson is is impressive but being the man to beat still even into his 40's is just unbelievable. Personally I prefer Jones and just wish he would have really proved how great he was with some tougher fights, most notably Dariusz Michalczewski.

Some of the stuff written about Jones here is pretty wide of the mark. Especially in regards to taking risks.

It was Hopkins who priced himself out of a lucrative rematch around 2002 by demanding Jones come down to a catchweight for 50/50 split. Jones offered a more than reasonable 40/60 considering who was the draw but Hopkins stayed put.

This is a general list of his title fights with his opponents divisional ranking at the time:


Middleweight:
Hopkins (9)
Tate (6)

Super Middleweight:
Toney (1)
Byrd (9)
Paziena (5)
Thornton (unranked)
Sosa (5)
Lucas (unranked)

Light Heavy:

McCallum (6)
Griffen (4)
Hill (5)
Del Valle (5)
Frazier (unranked)
Johson (3)
Telesco (9)
Hall (10)
Harding (3)
Harmon (10)
Gonzales (6)
Kelly (unranked)
Woods (9)
Tarver (1)
Johnson (4)

Heavyweight:
Ruiz (5)

Its hardly the rubbsh some make it out to be. He was consistently fighting top ranked opposition. There has been an element of revisionist theory applied to him by some which makes out he was avoiding challenges. Other than Darius Michelswecki who was guilty himself of not exactly chasing fights, Jones fough and beat nearly all the top ranked Light heavies. He then moved to heavy to face Ruiz. Again, people look back and say this was no great shakes but at the time Ruiz was coming off a split trilogy with Holyfield and was rated higher than the likes of Holyfield, Rahman, Vitali and Tyson by the Ring.

Hopkins had the greater luxury in terms of fights available in his career as at MW he could benefit from top guys moving up from the then talent rich WW and LMW division. At Light heavyweight Jones didnt have these options. Calzaghe sometimes gets touted but this fight was rarely ever credible when both men were at the top. Its only when Jones is finished that Calzaghe ever really gets highly rated.

Overall I think its close between Hopkins and Jones. Alot will probably depend on the significance attached to the end of Jones career and the dramatic difference in fortunes may end up swinging it for Hopkins I suspect even though I think Jones was a better fighter overall. All things considered I think Hopkins longetivity and superior win list is enough to edge in front of Jones greater ability in the legacy stakes but see it as very much a case of Hopkins aving the better fights available to acheive this rather than Jones avoiding challenges and not taking risks.

This argument probably comes up every 3 or 4 weeks.

Jones for me slightly higher because of his pre title achievements, eg he fought much better opposition pre hopkins than hopkins did pre jones.

hopkins middleweight = jones light heavy/heavy

hopkins light heavy = jones supermiddle/middle

hopkins has the more well known names eg trinidad/dlh, but as shown by the above comment, jones fought guys that were just as good/highly ranked in the division, but people forget about jones opponents.

performances have to be considered but that is not how i rank jones ahead because although he dominated fighters, hopkins never really looked like getting beat for 9 years either

jones is ahead because of vaca, castro, harris, who were quite good scalps for a novice compared to hopkins early wins

Michaels, Sean wrote:Have to agree with Coxy. Sums it up well. RJJ never took dangerous fights until the money ran out.

So Hopkins and Tonet weren't dangerous fights? and from what I can remember at the time most people thought that the likes of Benn and Eubank would have been embaressed by Jones- Eubank himself states in his book that Jones would have probably stiopped or outclassed him.
I agree with coxy in that I believe that who and how you beat is more important in judging greatness, but you can't just dismiss skill altogher,
and for me there records are about even, Jones beat Hoppo when it mattered, and for the record , he did have better skills. Jones greater by the thickness of a cigarete paper.

It's laughable isn't it horizontal...............

Ali and Robinson will be duckers next.

Nice post Manos, but i make that only 3 Top 3 guys (by The Ring).........

Therein lies my problem with him and some ranking him too highly in my opinion. 24 fights you've listed and 21 against guys outside the top 3. Only 2 #1s as well.....

Only 3 top 3 guys......

Just leave it out Mate. The list he showed you was quality..Mccallum, Hill, Woods, Tarver..

All respected champions added to the pot..

You're making me squirm with embarassment..

coxy0001 wrote:Nice post Manos, but i make that only 3 Top 3 guys (by The Ring).........

Therein lies my problem with him and some ranking him too highly in my opinion. 24 fights you've listed and 21 against guys outside the top 3. Only 2 #1s as well.....

4 actually. Also:

Won titles Middleweight to Heavyweight.
3x Yearly P4P #1
3x Yearly P4P #2
2x Yearly P4P #3
Beat the P4P#1
About a dozen world champions, most of them the most impressively they had been beaten, got him to 48-1, and only beaten while handing a lesson to Griffin.

Scotty has it spot on.......

Your arguments sucks Coxy.......and deep down I'm sure you know it!!

coxy0001 wrote:Nice post Manos, but i make that only 3 Top 3 guys (by The Ring).........

Therein lies my problem with him and some ranking him too highly in my opinion. 24 fights you've listed and 21 against guys outside the top 3. Only 2 #1s as well.....

Well the list is where they were ranked around the specific time Jones faced them. The key point is he faced them all over his reign bar Michaelswecki. The ones in bold are the ones he beat.

Here is the light heavy prp list from 2001 for example when Jones was in the midst of his light heavy career:

1. Darius
2. Harding
3. Johnson
4. Griffen
5. Tarver
6. Gonzales
7. Girard
8. Del Valle
9. Woods
10. Harmon

Jones beat all of these over his light heavy career with the exception of Darius M and Girard.

When he first moved to light heavy in 1996 this was the Ring list:

1. Hill
2. Jones Junior
3. Griffen
4. Darius M
5. Toney
6. Sosa
7. Rochigianni
8. McCallum
9. Guthrie
10. Tate

Again out of an available 9 opponents on that list Jones beat 6 of them. Add to that other guys like Hall and Telesco who were also rated by the Ring when he faced them. Over his light heavy reign as champion he more or less beat every noteworthy ranked light heavyweight with the exception of Darius Michaelswecki. The same group of fighters by and large remain top ranked in the division and Jones beat the vast majority of them with ridiculous ease.

He only spent 3 of his earlier championship years outside of light heavy and still managed to notch up impressive wins over Toney and Hopkins as well as guys like Malinga, Paziena and Byrd who were solid contenders at the time.

The added to that he stepped up to heavyweight to beat Ruiz who had just shared a trilogy with Holyfield.

At that present moment in time, yes. Care to go through each say quarters worth?

Side point - How many of those guys are HoF worthy? LHW wasn't stacked.... Be like Haye fighting for the next 3 years and running through most of the "rated" opponents in the top 10 now

Why don't you just give it a rest....

God you're boring!!

Admit you're wrong and go to bed..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Why don't you just give it a rest....

God you're boring!!

Admit you're wrong and go to bed..

Shut up Truss

I have my opinion, you have yours. His record is littered with who he didn't fight than who he actually did, a fact you can't deny.

You place him on this big high pedestal which he's undeserving of, you have him inside the top ruddy 20 of all time or something utterly laughably high. I however don't place him on some big high pedestal, don't have him in the top 50 and believe that the caliber of opponent he did face doesn't warrant such a high rating - let alone the fighters i could quite happily list that he didn't fight for whatever reason (be bothered to fight either; case study DLH who took on pretty much everyone and dragged boxing out of the doldrums).

That my ignorant American friend doesn't make me any more wrong than you are as it's a matter of opinion, not fact. I asked how many of the guys listed were HoF worthy, and i'm quite prepared to give my list of those he didn't fight that ARE HoF worthy.

Again buddy, don't bother replying to me unless you've actually thought through what you've said. I know it's in your blood to act like a prize idiot and then maybe having a thought process at a later date but please save me the trouble of explaining what a sodding opinion is.

If that's the case then why is everybody disagreeing with you....

Thought through what I've said..I don't need to say anything I just have to read the case everybody else has made dumbass..

We get it you don't like him.....tough!!!

You're like a defence lawyer defending a guyup for murder caught at the scene with a bloody knife screaming "I did it, I did it".....

Disrespecting a great like Jones is pretty low in my eyes..

turn it in and leave while you have a modicum of self respect left..

coxy0001 wrote:At that present moment in time, yes. Care to go through each say quarters worth?

Side point - How many of those guys are HoF worthy? LHW wasn't stacked.... Be like Haye fighting for the next 3 years and running through most of the "rated" opponents in the top 10 now

I see it being closer to Larry Holmes in the late 70s and early 80s than to Haye. Jones manner of vitctories being more impressive if anything. Nobody seems to have a problem rating Holmes highly despite the division not being a whos who of ATGs.

The guys Jones beat were generally good and if you take Jones out of light heavy you have an ultra competitive division with the likes of Harding, Tarver, Telesco, Griffen, Hill, Reggie Johnson, Darius Michaelswecki all being similarly levelled. Jones being there just made short work of most of them and the manner in which he beat them I think is indicative of the level up he was on and class he had.

He will probably retire with 4/5 HoFers on his c.v and a host of good contenders.

You're wasting your time with this guy Mate..

He'd make a case for Bonecrusher Smith getting the decision over Tyson!!!

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:If that's the case then why is everybody disagreeing with you....

Thought through what I've said..I don't need to say anything I just have to read the case everybody else has made dumbass..

We get it you don't like him.....tough!!!

You're like a defence lawyer defending a guyup for murder caught at the scene with a bloody knife screaming "I did it, I did it".....

Disrespecting a great like Jones is pretty low in my eyes..

turn it in and leave while you have a modicum of self respect left..

When have i said i don't like him? You accuse me of being a dumbass and quite idiotically make an assumption that i don't rate him because i don't like him. I'm sorry to break this to you, but i don't rate him as highly as you do (or anywhere near for that matter) based on a complete lack of HoF worthy/great great fighters on his resume.

Personal like or dislike doesn't come into it. I was a massive fan of Hatton but i don't let myself get carried away with how good he actually was.

And again you have absolutely no leg to stand on about self respect - how many "look at me look at me" retirement threads have you written in the past buddy?

Not everyone thinks RJJ is a top 20 or whatever ATG fighter, and i'd hazard a guess most posters here who appreciate the history of our sport rather than be a dismissive fool would have him well outside that. It's an opinion, something you quite apparently appear to struggle with the meaning of. I could and probably will list 15 fighters at light heavy alone that rank above RJJ in my eyes, yes - read it - JUST LIGHT HEAVY!!!!!!! And because most would be prior to the line you ignorantly draw of when you start rating fighters you'd probably disagree.

Toney and an early version of BHop (who didn't have a really big notable win until 2001 - did he?!!?) qualify him for ATG status? Maybe in your eyes, not in mine and in 25 years time history will probably end up judging him in a much worse light than you do now. By which point you'd have hopefully retired from all online activity for the 239th time.

Jones's style doesn't lend itself to the body he now possesses in old age.

His style requires razor sharp reflexes, he no longer has that so gets hit way too often even by fighters that wouldn't have stood a chance years back.

If he had quit when he was on top this discussion wouldn't exist. In his prime and it was a long prime period he was unbeatable, better than Hopkins has ever been. This current encarnation shouldn't ever get back in the ring or he will end up talking like Holyfield.

All your highlighting by listing the Light Heavyweights is the fact that Jones did not face Dariusz which for whatever reason is a big mark against the pair of them

Truss, as for Jones being top 15, not a chance in hell

Imperial Ghosty wrote:All your highlighting by listing the Light Heavyweights is the fact that Jones did not face Dariusz which for whatever reason is a big mark against the pair of them

Truss, as for Jones being top 15, not a chance in hell

Its a big mark if you place Michaelswecki anywhere near the same league as Jones - which I dont. The honus was on Michaelswecki. The rest of the evidence cleary indicates Jones was facing all the other top light heavies who werent inclined to sit it out in Germany. This idea that he missed more names then he didnt is bizzare. Some people start digging out every half name from MW to LH since 1990 trying to make a case for Jones to fight them.

Boxing history is littered with situations where guys dont face some threat or another. Dempsey never faced Wills, Robinson never faced Burley, Hearns never faced McCallum, Lewis never faced Bowe, De la Hoya never faced Wright, Calzaghe never faced Ottke.

Michaelswecki fought out of Germany fighting a ranked guy every three years. The guy is no comparison to Jones at all. I dont think he adds much to Jones legacy and has become something of boogeyman the same way Williams/Margarito were for Mayweather.The main difference being that Michelswecki never pushed for the fight much at all. If Jones beats him he becomes an Arthur Abraham type figure yet its expected he goes chasing after him when Germany was arguably at its most notorious as a location.

I actually think the Hopkins rematch circa 2002 is more significant because it was a genuine "superfight" between the top two pound for pound guys that would have added a big scalp to Jones resume in an all time sense. Something which Michelswecki wouldnt do. But again, given Hopkins demands you would have to say more of the blame falls on his side. He was the guy looking to avenge an earlier defeat and was less of a draw yet he wanted Jones to come down from LH to a catchweight and accept a 50/50 split.

In a 50 all timer 2007 list compiled by ESPN Jones Finished higher than Hopkins.

If Jones had finished after his trip to heavy like he should have his name would never be in doubt.

This desire to keep fighting has muddied his name.

Also when you look at these lists you have to think, would these fighters really have been so great today?

Foreign fighters come to the fore much quicker than they used too. The sport is truely global now.

The all time list is almost entirely american's who spent most of their career's fighting other american's.

The main question to ask is.

In their primes which fighter would you rather watch?

All but a few would say Jones. Hopkins, although talented was not always that special to watch.

manos de piedra wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:All your highlighting by listing the Light Heavyweights is the fact that Jones did not face Dariusz which for whatever reason is a big mark against the pair of them

Truss, as for Jones being top 15, not a chance in hell

Its a big mark if you place Michaelswecki anywhere near the same league as Jones - which I dont. The honus was on Michaelswecki. The rest of the evidence cleary indicates Jones was facing all the other top light heavies who werent inclined to sit it out in Germany. This idea that he missed more names then he didnt is bizzare. Some people start digging out every half name from MW to LH since 1990 trying to make a case for Jones to fight them.

Boxing history is littered with situations where guys dont face some threat or another. Dempsey never faced Wills, Robinson never faced Burley, Hearns never faced McCallum, Lewis never faced Bowe, De la Hoya never faced Wright, Calzaghe never faced Ottke.

Michaelswecki fought out of Germany fighting a ranked guy every three years. The guy is no comparison to Jones at all. I dont think he adds much to Jones legacy and has become something of boogeyman the same way Williams/Margarito were for Mayweather.The main difference being that Michelswecki never pushed for the fight much at all. If Jones beats him he becomes an Arthur Abraham type figure yet its expected he goes chasing after him when Germany was arguably at its most notorious as a location.

I actually think the Hopkins rematch circa 2002 is more significant because it was a genuine "superfight" between the top two pound for pound guys that would have added a big scalp to Jones resume in an all time sense. Something which Michelswecki wouldnt do. But again, given Hopkins demands you would have to say more of the blame falls on his side. He was the guy looking to avenge an earlier defeat and was less of a draw yet he wanted Jones to come down from LH to a catchweight and accept a 50/50 split.

I was going to reply to coxy and ghosty until I read this. Great post

You can make all the excuses in the world you want Manos but it's not going to change the fact that he did not face or beat Dariusz, whether it's down to Jones or DM to make the fight happen makes no difference at all, it simply never happened so it is a mark against the pair. To prove yourself the best you have to beat the best and they were by far the top two light heavyweights in the world, Jones looked stylish and often won easily but appearances can be deceptive it's the results that matter most. Without that fight the rest of his record does not stand up well to scrutiny, beating the next best who weren't that good anyway is not a replacement for beating the man.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:You can make all the excuses in the world you want Manos but it's not going to change the fact that he did not face or beat Dariusz, whether it's down to Jones or DM to make the fight happen makes no difference at all, it simply never happened so it is a mark against the pair. To prove yourself the best you have to beat the best and they were by far the top two light heavyweights in the world, Jones looked stylish and often won easily but appearances can be deceptive it's the results that matter most. Without that fight the rest of his record does not stand up well to scrutiny, beating the next best who weren't that good anyway is not a replacement for beating the man.

Your delusional if you think Dariusz stood a chance against Roy Jones...it's like having a go at Calzaghe not facing Ottke.

So we don't bother having fights then we just know who's going to win which is good enough?

Imperial Ghosty wrote:So we don't bother having fights then we just know who's going to win which is good enough?

Yep

Off to bed...bedtime for some

Imperial Ghosty wrote:You can make all the excuses in the world you want Manos but it's not going to change the fact that he did not face or beat Dariusz, whether it's down to Jones or DM to make the fight happen makes no difference at all, it simply never happened so it is a mark against the pair. To prove yourself the best you have to beat the best and they were by far the top two light heavyweights in the world, Jones looked stylish and often won easily but appearances can be deceptive it's the results that matter most. Without that fight the rest of his record does not stand up well to scrutiny, beating the next best who weren't that good anyway is not a replacement for beating the man.

Not really because you are making Michaelswecki out to be something he wasnt. He was in the chasing pack, or make that non chasing pack, behind Jones who comfortably established himself as the best in the division without him. At best it went Jones, and then everyone else with Michaelswecki heading that group perhaps. He seldom took risks. Rochigianni was beating him until the ref decided to DQ him for having the audacity to punch his opponent when Michaelsweki was on the way out. Was there a rematch?, yep, about 4 years later when they dragged Rochigianni out of retirement. This was after feasting on the Nicky Pipers and Drake Thadzis for a few years in between.

Meanwhile Jones went about beating every other top ranked Light heavy in the world, unifying the remaining titles, becoming pound for pound number 1 and establishing himself as the number one recognised Light Heavy in the world by the Ring magazine.

If Michaelswecki was a genuine threat to Jones I might agree with you. But he was a level or two below and didnt distinguish himself as Jones did. I dont accept Jones record doesnt stand up without him whatsoever because if anything it shows he was the one that was clearing out the rest of the division while Michaelswecki feasted on the leftovers or WBO mandatories.

The only exception was when he beat Hill. Aside from that, his competition and performances were way below Jones. At worst it was a minor point not beating him rather than the legacy killer you are insinuating.

Excuses excuses, all you ever hear with Jones, DM wasn't in the chasing pack at all like you put it, he was the established number one in the division before he was stripped of his titles and then won immediately by Jones, nothing strange about that.

Jones' opposition wasn't that much better than DM's either, they were a clear one and two who never fought, mark against him without any doubt

Mud sticks. Jones missed 7 or 8 top class boxers in his move through the weight categories. Was it the other man's fault each time? As far as I know he promoted himself?