Your country in 2015

First topic message reminder :

England: For the first time in ten years there's hope on the horizon with a crop of (hopefully) talented youngsters looks good for the country's prospects. But structural problems in the Jeff seem to disadvantage the sides at the highest (HEC) European level. The wage cap falls between two stools - too high for the lower sides and too meagre to compete with the likes of France and (with no helpful restriction on player game time) Ireland.

France: This is France I'm talking about. So prepare for every conceivable outcome. It is entirely and equally possible that they'll sack everyone in sight at national whether they win the RWC 2011 or fall at the first hurdle. And then appoint a new management team based on le Lotto. At club level they will probably vie with Ireland in the HEC but probably the billionaire syndrome will abate and a more sensible wage cap will emerge. But there again, it may not. The National side will not finish below 3rd in the 6Ns before 2015 (unless they do). Don't firkin ask me. Ask Nostradamus - he was French.

Ireland: The so-called golden generation will be virtually gone after the RWC but there seems to be a useful successor plan in train. And they have all the benefits that England lack - control of players, no wage caps and a structure which the other ML teams would be best advised to emulate if they are convinced of their commitment to franchises.

Scotland and Italy: Controversial to bundle them together. I predict that both will flat-line in all areas. For Scotland because they just don't have the support in it's footy-mad heartlands. They've lost their roots and desire it seems. Italy on the other hand will continue to plod. No chance at side level and the continuance of the odd flash result it national level. By 2015 I wouldn't be surprised to see them both fighting a rearguard action to avoid a multi-tier European national league of 3Ns played home and away.

Wales: Wales will continue to go up and down like a whore's drawers. If they properly and fully integrate on the Irish model, then that would be better. But old club allegiances seem to simmer somehow (and as an Englishman I can empathise). I predict that Wales will win a 6Ns and even an HEC all bracketed with the black clouds of despair. That's Wales for you.

The obsession with the salary cap implies that the Clubs are trying to buy more
success rather than develop players through the academy.
I have no problems with players being picked under residential rules,or a overseas player who was developed from a young age in a country.
But to pick players who discover convenient Grand parents is decidely dodgy
Shane Howarth/Thomas Waldron any one.
England have developed a good young side,perhaps it is time to let the time servers go to develop replacements in depth.
Ireland have a new generation developing to replace the old,Scotland unless they can expand there player pool will continue to struggle.Italy unless they can pick there best side will continue to struggle.
Wales after the last two RWCs rebuilt an won Grand Slams there is no reason to think they cannot do it again.
France are France,can run you ragged or just capitulate with only 55% players
France qualified they still produce class players.Pay top wages so not many of there players stray.
They were most consistent when they abadoned there running game and played limited Rugby with kicking Fh`s like Guy and Didier Camberero and Lescourbora.

Very perceptive NGANBOY,Colin Slade will be AB number one,SBW will be back in France playing for cash.
Matt Todd may well be starting 7,or Luke Braid,the youngest Whitelock will be sniffing around too.
Ritchie McCaw and DanCarter will be history ,S15 will be back to S12 or 10.
4Ns will be won by Argentina on a narrow basis.
RWC will finally be won by France,beating Argen tina in the final.

nah emack

Super 18 will be won by the Tokyo Samurais
Richie and Dan will be leading the team
Courtney Lawes and the ever green Brad Thorn will be locking
Henson will be the worst paid player but still earn about 1 million dollars per year.
Japan will still be rudey poo.
Good call on the RWC

Portnoy wrote:
Scotland and Italy: Controversial to bundle them together. I predict that both will flat-line in all areas. For Scotland because they just don't have the support in it's footy-mad heartlands. They've lost their roots and desire it seems. Italy on the other hand will continue to plod. No chance at side level and the continuance of the odd flash result it national level. By 2015 I wouldn't be surprised to see them both fighting a rearguard action to avoid a multi-tier European national league of 3Ns played home and away.

If this is a WUM it's a pretty terrible one.

I'm really not sure what Portnoy has against Scotland but this is the 2nd thread in as many weeks IMO designed to get a reaction! Well guess what buddy, you have got one!

Firstly to say that you predict Scotland will "Flat Line in all areas" is an utterly rediculous statement.

Our team in 2015 would look something Like this I think :

1. Dickinson / Traynor
2. Ford / Kelly
3.Cross / Low
4. Gray / Hamilton
5. Kellock / Gray Jr
6. Strok / Harley
7. Barclay (c) / Rennie
8. Beattie / Denton
9. Cusiter / Laidlaw
10. Weir / Jackson
11. Visser
12. Ansbro / Cairns
13. Evans / Bennet
14. Thompson
15. R.Lamont /Cuthbert

Ok I admit we seem to be a little short on wingers but I would say that is hardly a team that looks like it's "flat-lining". We also have a very good system for bringing young talented players through however our biggest challenge is holding onto them vis-a-vis Mark Bennet going to Clermont.

Scottish Rugby has had a torrid time in the last few years mainly due to No money being invested in the game and no marketing being carried out to raise the profile. Just a Season ago Glasgow were in the ML Playoffs, and the season before that Edinburgh were Runner's up in the league. All that besides having no cash and no direction. Now with McKie the chief Executive offski Scotland have a chance to turn the corner and IMO will be stronger in 2015.

I'm not saying Scotland will be 6N Grand Slammers or WC winners but to say we will "flat-line" is not just insulting but also shows some serious gaps in your research. If you don't watch or have no interest in Scottish rugby that's ok, but don't just jump on into us with baseless statements and comments that have absolutley no grounding in the real rugby world.

Rant Over!

The state of the Irish team from 6-15 is going to be unbelievably good.

BACKROW: Ruddock, McLaughlin, Ryan, O'Brien, Heaslip, Faloon, Henry
SCRUMHALF: Murray, O'Donoghue, TOL, Williams, Marshall
FLYHALF: Sexton, Keatley, Jackson, McKinley
INSIDE CENTRE: Mcfadden, Marshall, Fitzgerald
OUTSIDE CENTRE: Spence, O'Malley, Macken, Griffin, Bowe + Earls (maybe)
WING: Bowe, Trimble, Earls, Conway, Gilroy, CARR, D.Kearney,
FULLBACK: Jones, Kearney

WOW

Radge - I'd say the outlook for Scottish rugby is pretty mixed actually.

In terms of the national team, on the plus side there is the ever expanding pool of players as a result of the growing numbers of exiles. This is giving us more depth at a certain level of player, and allowing our top players to get access to top level rugby.

On the down side the above situation will only develop further if our professional sides in Scotland (a) grow financially to the extent that they can keep a certain amount of top talent in Scotland, the thereby encourage future youngsters like Bennett to stay north for the initial parts of their careers and (b) make a point of limiting their numbers of non-Scots qualified players.

If by "flat-lining" the premise is that Scottish rugby will be dead by 2015, then that's just nonsense. However, if the original poster is saying that progress will be stagnant, then I think there are reasonable grounds for that view as a result of the lack of progress being made at the professional sides. The SRU priority must be to develop those two teams, otherwise the clutch of top international players still in Scotland will leave, along with any hope of raising support for those teams. Without the pro sides being competitive, the current positives re: depth I mentioned earlier will fade. We need the pro sides to continue to develop young Scottish talent and give the likes of Low, Harley, McInally, Denton, Jackson and Jones (a young winger you missed off the list Radge) the time and space to develop their game.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Portnoy wrote:
Scotland and Italy: Controversial to bundle them together. I predict that both will flat-line in all areas. For Scotland because they just don't have the support in it's footy-mad heartlands. They've lost their roots and desire it seems. Italy on the other hand will continue to plod. No chance at side level and the continuance of the odd flash result it national level. By 2015 I wouldn't be surprised to see them both fighting a rearguard action to avoid a multi-tier European national league of 3Ns played home and away.

If this is a WUM it's a pretty terrible one.

I'm really not sure what Portnoy has against Scotland but this is the 2nd thread in as many weeks IMO designed to get a reaction! Well guess what buddy, you have got one!

Firstly to say that you predict Scotland will "Flat Line in all areas" is an utterly rediculous statement.

Our team in 2015 would look something Like this I think :

1. Dickinson / Traynor
2. Ford / Kelly
3.Cross / Low
4. Gray / Hamilton
5. Kellock / Gray Jr
6. Strok / Harley
7. Barclay (c) / Rennie
8. Beattie / Denton
9. Cusiter / Laidlaw
10. Weir / Jackson
11. Visser
12. Ansbro / Cairns
13. Evans / Bennet
14. Thompson
15. R.Lamont /Cuthbert

Ok I admit we seem to be a little short on wingers but I would say that is hardly a team that looks like it's "flat-lining". We also have a very good system for bringing young talented players through however our biggest challenge is holding onto them vis-a-vis Mark Bennet going to Clermont.

Scottish Rugby has had a torrid time in the last few years mainly due to No money being invested in the game and no marketing being carried out to raise the profile. Just a Season ago Glasgow were in the ML Playoffs, and the season before that Edinburgh were Runner's up in the league. All that besides having no cash and no direction. Now with McKie the chief Executive offski Scotland have a chance to turn the corner and IMO will be stronger in 2015.

I'm not saying Scotland will be 6N Grand Slammers or WC winners but to say we will "flat-line" is not just insulting but also shows some serious gaps in your research. If you don't watch or have no interest in Scottish rugby that's ok, but don't just jump on into us with baseless statements and comments that have absolutley no grounding in the real rugby world.

Rant Over!

I agree with you that Portnoys has a very slanted/illiterate view of Scottish rugby.

Also I think Visser, fantastic player that he is, is far more likely to be aligned with Holland than Scotland?

No Visser will comitt to Scotland. He has said this many times.

I think that the Scottish international team will probably be ok but I think their Pro 12 teams are a long long way from salvation.

[quote="RuggerRadge2611"]

Portnoy wrote:

I'm really not sure what Portnoy has against Scotland but this is the 2nd thread in as many weeks IMO designed to get a reaction! Well guess what buddy, you have got one!

I have absolutely no issue with Scotland mate. Absolutely none. All I am doing is calling as I see it.

I have been criticised from all over the B&I and France for that matter - and not least England for pointing out what I see are obvious shortcomings.

Ironically usually the biggest charge put at me us that I'm Hibernophobic yet in this article I hold up Ireland as the paradigm. The very model of how to get things right in a franchise system.

So I stand by my view whilst I hope that Scotland prove me wrong.

emack2 wrote:The obsession with the salary cap implies that the Clubs are trying to buy more
success rather than develop players through the academy.
I have no problems with players being picked under residential rules,or a overseas player who was developed from a young age in a country.
But to pick players who discover convenient Grand parents is decidely dodgy
Shane Howarth/Thomas Waldron any one.
England have developed a good young side,perhaps it is time to let the time servers go to develop replacements in depth.
Ireland have a new generation developing to replace the old,Scotland unless they can expand there player pool will continue to struggle.Italy unless they can pick there best side will continue to struggle.
Wales after the last two RWCs rebuilt an won Grand Slams there is no reason to think they cannot do it again.
France are France,can run you ragged or just capitulate with only 55% players
France qualified they still produce class players.Pay top wages so not many of there players stray.
They were most consistent when they abadoned there running game and played limited Rugby with kicking Fh`s like Guy and Didier Camberero and Lescourbora.

I'd quibble with the first point. Leicester had Dan Cole and Ben Youngs on academy contracts, then they broke into the Leicester first team and soon after into the England team. Having been capped and named in the EPS, they could demand high wages (or go elsewhere) and something had to give in the salary cap. If they'd signed a journeyman tight-head and scrum-half they'd have been on a bit more than when Cole and Youngs were on academy wages, but no way more than when Cole and Youngs were on International wages.

Maybe if there was a "Non-academy trained" budget, so there was a salary cap on signings you've made to encourage teams to bring through academy players, but at the moment teams like Leicester ended up losing Lewis Moody (14 years at the club) and Sam Vesty (8 years at the club) because there's no room in the salary cap.

I also wouldn't just "let the time servers go". We need to naturally bring players through. We can't throw out 5/6 players and re-build, we need to keep a natural evolution. I think we'll only lose a few of players after the World Cup (and a couple of those are fringe players like Shaw and Chuter) so we won't have major re-building work on our hands.

Portnoy wrote: I have been criticised from all over the B&I and France for that matter. Ironically usually the biggest charge put at me us that I'm Hibernophobic yet in this article I hold up Ireland as the paradigm. The very model of how to get things right in a franchise system.

True you are usually criticised And yes to your credit you hold up Irish as example and diminish the Hibernophobic argument

red_stag wrote:

Portnoy wrote: I have been criticised from all over the B&I and France for that matter. Ironically usually the biggest charge put at me us that I'm Hibernophobic yet in this article I hold up Ireland as the paradigm. The very model of how to get things right in a franchise system.

True you are usually criticised And yes to your credit you hold up Irish as example and diminish the Hibernophobic argument

And that's the way I'll stay, Stag.

I've got an open mind - like I have been persuaded for example of the play-offs in the Magners

But don't expect any sycophancy from me.

To thine own self be true.

True Portnoys. It is a good system for the Pro 12 (theres no Magners anymore)

Its the French playoffs I think are stupid. Teams 1-6 (basically half the league) compete in them.

Portnoy wrote:Scotland and Wales and England More effort should be put into stadia that ft the fan base.

Blues, Scarlets and Ospreys have brand new stadiums and Dragons are building theirs. Cant see what more they could do on that score.

The opening post summary of Wales is spot on, were up and down all the time. At least it's fun being a Wales supporter.

What amazes me is the Blues fans who give out about Cardiff City Stadium. I found it really handy when I was there for the Amlin. Only a 15 minute walk from Millenium Stadium and great facilities.

red_stag wrote:What amazes me is the Blues fans who give out about Cardiff City Stadium. I found it really handy when I was there for the Amlin. Only a 15 minute walk from Millenium Stadium and great facilities.

Don't be suprised most Cardiff fans are never happy!
You could get the girls from the Fantasy Lounge strip club to do a streak during a game and they'd find a reason to moan...

AlynDavies wrote:

Portnoy wrote:Scotland and Wales and England More effort should be put into stadia that ft the fan base.

Blues, Scarlets and Ospreys have brand new stadiums and Dragons are building theirs. Cant see what more they could do on that score.

The opening post summary of Wales is spot on, were up and down all the time. At least it's fun being a Wales supporter.

5 or 6000 or so in a stadium which can hold 3-5 times as many makes for a hollow, soul-less atmosphere.

I don't know too much about Parc Y Scarlets but I hear positive comments, but CCS and the Liberty like many of the football ground shares in England are typical of my criticism. Murrayfield is an unbelievably bad choice for Edinburgh - but at least t looks as though they are going to find a more suitable home.