pet hates - in particular, course condition and attention to detail

First topic message reminder :

my pet hate is poorly maintained bunkers. there's just no excuse. with a little care the presentation of certain elements such as bunkers, tee areas, paths etc can give a course something more ...

i was lucky to spend a couple of summers as a lad working as a labourer on the green staff of our club and there was a consistent and fair-minded philosophy behind how each bunker was presented. the bunkers were generally pretty deep, and all had at least a yard and a half of sloping sand the whole way round so every ball would roll away from the edge meaning you always had a fair stance at your shot. also this meant there was no danger of anyone destroying the riveted edge by being plugged 6 inches away from the face. sand was raked twice during the week and twice at the weekends in a very particular fashion and the base always properly levelled to avoid the wave effect. the rake was positioned on the rough side, tip of the handle resting on the edge [no unfortunate bounces off the rake into the bunker, if you hit the rake you were already in!] and teeth pointing in the general direction of play into the bunker so as to minimise gathering or sticking. rivets were burned/repaired where necessary twice through the summer, and grassy tops were mown every week. the rigour shown in this programme showed pride in the presentation of the course, and this transmitted through to other duties.

i used to be on the weekend shift regularly, raking 58 bunkers in time for the 7.30 competition start. i used to nip down at 4.30 and enjoy the always stunning moray firth sunrise, bliss! [though less so if it was pis-sing!]

Graeme... Is that picking it up cleanly which is the problem. Don't sweep it off... smash it off.

Hit down on the bloody thing hard and firm. As long as you hit some part of the ball first it's getting out. Unless there's a massive lip.

And even a thin from a low lipped fairway bunker is going a long way.

Ta, i'll give it a try

that's a very good point lj, thanks. right, that's fairway bunkers solved but they should still be in good nick!

one2another

no offence taken, everyone is entitled to their own opinion but my point really is this:

We have all been high handicappers at some point, some have improved and some have remained at a fairly static level. I have a fairly competitive nature, if I participate in a sport then I want to achieve the highest level I'm capable of. As a result of this, I have worked hard on my golf game over a long period of time. I practice shots out of bunkers, rough etc and I do it from a wide variety of lies. Hopefully, when I do go in a bunker, I can cope with there being too much or too little sand. Obviously, I don't get it right all the time and yes, it can be annoying to drop a shot when you feel that you haven't hit a bad shot. But that's golf, that's why it's challenging and that's why we love the game so much.

Too many people are happy to whinge about the 'condition' of the course but as somebody said in an earlier post, the lower handicappers seem to cope better when things ain't so great.

I can see a pretty clear message in that comment.

d4s, to take your argument to the nth degree, it doesn't really matter what state the course is in... lumpy greens, weed-infested fairways, sandless bunkers, unkempt rough.

but it does matter, therefore as much care as possible (within financial constraints) should be taken to to maintain a course.

graeme

absolutely! Nobody wants to play golf on a run down derelict course but I'm trying to keep this in context.

We should keep courses as challenging but playable as possible.

D4S - i play off 2 mate - actually 1.7 right now. I want to play a course that is fair and honest to the shots i hit. If i wallop it wildly off the tee i expect to get punished. I dont however expect shoddy bunkers that have seen little thought as to how to make them challenging but fair - stop raking sand up the face of bunkers! It should be a fine skim of sand up the face etc etc. Read any book on bunker design etc. I dont expect to wonder around for 5 hours watching 17handicap played slash out of rough thats only good for making hay with. I might be hitting fairways but they are not all the time and it only takes a couple of errant shots to watch the whole comp slow up to a crawl. Even letting folk through doesnt speed up the overall round performance of the comp.

You say low handicap players seem to cope better. Well thats all relative really. Whats coping? 5 or 6 over for a 2 handicap player? 20 over for a 15handicap?

You are flogging a dead horse mate. A badly maintained/stupidly set up course bites all golfers...whether you have practiced for all eventualities or not. I do however find it hard that anyone practices out of knee length rough just for this reason. Then again all golfers have a level of madness to a degree

Finally this is not Whinging as you put it. Its a forum for open discussion about badly maintained bunkers/courses and the impact it has upon ALL levels of golfer. As a low handicap golfer i think my points here are valid for alllevels of golfer.

I should say, as a 17 handicapper, that i've never played a 5 hour round of golf

Onetoanother wrote:D4S - i play off 2 mate - actually 1.7 right now. I want to play a course that is fair and honest to the shots i hit. If i wallop it wildly off the tee i expect to get punished. I dont however expect shoddy bunkers that have seen little thought as to how to make them challenging but fair - stop raking sand up the face of bunkers! It should be a fine skim of sand up the face etc etc. Read any book on bunker design etc. I dont expect to wonder around for 5 hours watching 17handicap played slash out of rough thats only good for making hay with. I might be hitting fairways but they are not all the time and it only takes a couple of errant shots to watch the whole comp slow up to a crawl. Even letting folk through doesnt speed up the overall round performance of the comp.

You say low handicap players seem to cope better. Well thats all relative really. Whats coping? 5 or 6 over for a 2 handicap player? 20 over for a 15handicap?

You are flogging a dead horse mate. A badly maintained/stupidly set up course bites all golfers...whether you have practiced for all eventualities or not. I do however find it hard that anyone practices out of knee length rough just for this reason. Then again all golfers have a level of madness to a degree

Finally this is not Whinging as you put it. Its a forum for open discussion about badly maintained bunkers/courses and the impact it has upon ALL levels of golfer. As a low handicap golfer i think my points here are valid for alllevels of golfer.

As a fellow Cat1 player, you should appreciate where I'm coming from on this. Nobody wants to be in a poorly maintained bunker. As low handicappers, we are better equipped to avoid them and also better equipped to get out of them when we do go into one. I'm not flogging a dead horse. I agree bunkers shouldn't be allowed to get into that state but unfortunately, it happens.

Also....

As a CAT 1 player you rely on being given the chance to get up and down from a trap, and don't deem it an achievement just to get out, so imagine you are in a deep footrpint, can only see the top of the ball......

Although CAT 1's are better equipped to deal with it, it affects their scores more than it would a 17 h'capper,a nd thus levels it out and takes the skill out of it somewhat

ban_bam wrote:my pet hate is poorly maintained bunkers. there's just no excuse. with a little care the presentation of certain elements such as bunkers, tee areas, paths etc can give a course something more ...

i was lucky to spend a couple of summers as a lad working as a labourer on the green staff of our club and there was a consistent and fair-minded philosophy behind how each bunker was presented. the bunkers were generally pretty deep, and all had at least a yard and a half of sloping sand the whole way round so every ball would roll away from the edge meaning you always had a fair stance at your shot. also this meant there was no danger of anyone destroying the riveted edge by being plugged 6 inches away from the face. sand was raked twice during the week and twice at the weekends in a very particular fashion and the base always properly levelled to avoid the wave effect. the rake was positioned on the rough side, tip of the handle resting on the edge [no unfortunate bounces off the rake into the bunker, if you hit the rake you were already in!] and teeth pointing in the general direction of play into the bunker so as to minimise gathering or sticking. rivets were burned/repaired where necessary twice through the summer, and grassy tops were mown every week. the rigour shown in this programme showed pride in the presentation of the course, and this transmitted through to other duties.

i used to be on the weekend shift regularly, raking 58 bunkers in time for the 7.30 competition start. i used to nip down at 4.30 and enjoy the always stunning moray firth sunrise, bliss! [though less so if it was pis-sing!]

I recently received an email through from my away club stating they will be overhauling (digging out and rebuilding from scratch) the majority of the bunkers over the next 6 weeks. They did this a couple of seasons ago and made a right mess... here's hoping they've learned from their mistakes and restore them to their former glory!

Couple this with the intention to lengthen 10 holes and introduce new bunkers / re-route existing bunkers etc, to achieve an extra stroke on the SSS - I'm glad to have renewed my membership with a forward thinking club who are not afraid to invest (even if it is modest investment) in what the course has. I just hope my enthusiasm lasts after the completion!

one think i cant stand, and im surprised it hasnt been mentioned yet, is tee boxes that are sloped. it bugs me to the point its all i think about when teeing off. Do i Need to aim furthe left to compensate for the inevitable draw? etc!

hend085 wrote:one think i cant stand, and im surprised it hasnt been mentioned yet, is tee boxes that are sloped. it bugs me to the point its all i think about when teeing off. Do i Need to aim furthe left to compensate for the inevitable draw? etc!

Sloped/uneven tee boxes are a bugbear of mine as well. No excuse for it.

In theory there should be no such thing as a tee box and you should start a hole within two club lengths of the previous green. I don’t understand, given what could be a considerable cost in terms of construction and maintenance, why people think raised flat tee boxes are essential?

I know the tour players would be unable to cope with the mental trauma of an uneven tee box but are us regular golfers really as soft as the pro’s? Learn to except the challenges the land throws at you and you start to see where the true wonders of the game come from.

Ban,

Your clubs pursuit of a new SSS seems odd to me, but then again I am not into the whole monthly medal thing. I would always say changes should be made so that more people can enjoy a course and don’t see where sss comes into that. I know of a few courses where changes were made to toughen them and get a new sss, needless to say it has been a disaster for enjoyment of the round and ultimately member numbers.

Little Archaic in that view there MAc, right out of the James Braid, or Old Tom Morris Era.

GOlf has evolved much since then and the teeing area is one place a golfer should be allowed a perfect lie.

I do however think that changes should not be made to courses purely for the sake of it or in pursuit of added length unless they can show that scoring averages are now drastically lower and will enable to course to return to it's challenging best. But then I also think you dont need to make a course long to toughen it up, changing the length of the rough or simply with the right mowers the length of grass on the greens to speed them up or many other simple course setups to the existing golf course. Length does not always equal tougher

Fader,

Just as length does not always equal tougher, higher green speed does not equal more interest. Interest would also encompass challenge.

The higher the green speed the fewer pinable locations are possible on the green. The implication of this is also that higher green speeds mean less interesting and contoured greens.

Slower more imaginatively contoured greens will provide just as much of a challenge as super quick “boring” greens.

Fader, google “ladies putting green st Andrews” for a good idea of what is possible as green speeds decrease. This is an extreme example but starts to illustrate the point.

Mac, what a load of crap (as usual)

Can you imagine how slow a round would be if the group approaching the green had to wait for players to tee off from two club lengths of the green.

What next, football pitches without lines, goal posts of undetermined width?

Super

As usual you have missed the point or chosen to come off as ignorant. The point I was making is that the teeing area was never meant to be some sort of raised pristine area designed to make life as easy as possible for the player. I am not suggesting we need to use the two club length rule but maybe we need to accept shabby teeing grounds as just fine and fit for purpose.

Mac,
Just because something was originally meant to be done one way is no reason for it to continue to be so.
The first cars had three wheels. Would that still be a good idea?
Bikes didn't have pedals or pneumatic tyres, would that be a good idea.

How about you stop living in the days of James Braid and the pauper golfer and bring yourself into the 21st century. There is no need for rubbish tee boxes, so why have them.

In days of yore it might have been necessary to have shabby and irregualrly angled tees, due to lack of money, maintenance and machinery. There is no need for it anymore.
It is progress.

Even if the tee-boxes look like Mac's allotment, I can't stand it when the tee-boxes are not properly aligned with the fairway.
I know Mac will say we should adjust to that, but it just makes no sense.

I'm sure he'd probably like boxes of sand to be used as a tee back too.

Seriously I think he's like Rip Van Winkle, fell asleep in 1920 and has just woken up.

Kwini

If the teeing areas were simpler affairs I would think your pet hate would be reduced as complex tee box areas are more distracting when not aligned compared to the more simple look.

I'd hate to see the course you thought was perfection Mac. Probably be a field of gorse.

agreed on the allignment Kwini. it does make it quite difficult. im starting to realise im quite a fragile golfer mentally!

Do people seriously use the markers for alignment? The only thing I use them for is making sure my ball is correctly within the designated area, my alignment comes when I stand behind the ball and find my target.

I suspect this is more common in these United States, but overwatering a course to keep it as "green" as possible is a pet peeve of mine. The result, too often, is damp, ball-arresting fairways and too soft greens.

It's not really a pet hate, but it always makes me laugh when I see a par 4 or 5 medal tee with a great big divot in it. How is that even possible?

Surprised nobody has mentioned pitch marks! Or others in ability to repair them.

Fader wrote:Surprised nobody has mentioned pitch marks! Or others in ability to repair them.

Old spunkers are always complaining they can't get down to repair them, funny they can put a tee in the ground when driving though.

super_realist wrote:It's not really a pet hate, but it always makes me laugh when I see a par 4 or 5 medal tee with a great big divot in it. How is that even possible?

Misplaced approach landing on a nearby tee box and then having to be wedged onto the green. Not that I've ever done that - it was a bigger boy who then ran away.

Holes less than 480 yards that are still par fives.
Holes over 230 yards that are par 3's.
Any hole over 600 yards.

Unless said holes play with a severe slope.

You want par 4's to be over 480? I would hope every par four was far less than 480

Bob
I think it was Blackmoor Club Open Foursomes
My partners second shot rattled the clubhouse roof I was just about to wedge it off the middle of the practice putting green in full view of a busy clubhouse when the red faced club secretary rushed out. The practice green was in play and there was no local rule giving me a drop. After a hurried meeting with some members they decided that I could drop to the edge of the green without them disqualifing me.
Pitched to 6ft and partner holed for us to finish in the prizes.

Super sorry I'm a pratt should have been Par 5's ...I'll alter.

kwinigolfer wrote:Even if the tee-boxes look like Mac's allotment, I can't stand it when the tee-boxes are not properly aligned with the fairway.
I know Mac will say we should adjust to that, but it just makes no sense.

Been known to have been done deliberately before. I'm with S_R in that I take no notice of where the tee box etc is pointing.

navyblueshorts wrote:

kwinigolfer wrote:Even if the tee-boxes look like Mac's allotment, I can't stand it when the tee-boxes are not properly aligned with the fairway.
I know Mac will say we should adjust to that, but it just makes no sense.

Been known to have been done deliberately before. I'm with S_R in that I take no notice of where the tee box etc is pointing.

A lot of the tee boxes on my course are set up this way. On top of that the markers can sometimes be set in an even more extreme angle producing a smaller teeing area than the two club area. The more annoying thing about this is making sure you are behind the markers.

I must admit I do suppress a chuckle at times when someone is puzzled as to why it went straight into the woods.

super_realist wrote:It's not really a pet hate, but it always makes me laugh when I see a par 4 or 5 medal tee with a great big divot in it. How is that even possible?

guilty ...i can be a bit of a digger at times... i'll show you when we get that game soon.

....and another thing.

.....when you notice that there is not four club lengths between the measured back tee distance marker and the back of the tee.

Doon the Water wrote:....and another thing.

.....when you notice that there is not four club lengths between the measured back tee distance marker and the back of the tee.

You'd fall off the back of some our tees if you tried that Doon.

I remember playing back at 3 Rivers during a very hot summer when all the tees were moved back to try and lengthen the course. The medal tee on the 11th was the worst; you could barely swing without catching branches from the tree that was behind the tee box.

Just by way of correcting some historical inaccuracies in the posts about the teeing ground:

It was never within 2 clubs lengths of the previous green. Originally it was within one club length of the HOLE previously played. This then became various distances depending upon where you were playing. Like for example "between 6 and 10 club lengths" at Perth in 1825. It was in 1882 that tee markers became the only indication of teeing ground and the two club length depth was introduced. As an aside originally the tee was made with a handful of sand taken from the bottom of the previous hole. Makes you wonder what happened when you couldn't reach the bottom any more?

Doon the Water wrote:Holes less than 480 yards that are still par fives.
Holes over 230 yards that are par 3's.
Any hole over 600 yards.

Unless said holes play with a severe slope.

Deary me. Why shouldn't a par 5 be 470 yards? We are amateur golfers, not Open Championship contenders. A 470 yard hole might be a pushover par 5 on a warm July day with a gentle breeze. On a January day, with no run and a howling gale in your face, then it'll be a true par 5.

I'm tired of people trying to make the game less enjoyable for amateurs. As far as I'm concerned, anything over 450 yards should be a par 5.

George

I think doon meant to type "holes over 480 yards that are still par fours". Based on the comments below about holes being too long.

I don't mind naming and shaming my own course... Belvoir Park GC in Belfast used to be a top rate track. Hosted Clarkey et al in the Irish PGA, recently had the ladies European Amateur etc etc.

We used to have the most spectacular attention to detail, from the flowerbeds blooming and contoured striping on fairways down to the little things such as a path being cut through the rough from the tee boxes to the fairways, and my own favourite, the inside of the holes used to be painted white like on ze tellybox. Damn that hole really sticks out in your peripheral vision, makes a fair difference.

Nowadays, just a few years on, we have a new 3 million pound clubhouse (just a big open vacuum space) but the course is complete muck. The special touches have gone, the tee-boxes all need to be levelled, the bunkers are wick, fairways blend into the rough... I could go on. All this for the lovely sum of £1200 per year. Sweet deal.

Double post alert......... the tee areas sometimes are so far back they sit right up against the upper level, ie the championship tees, meaning the player almost hits the slope of the grass in his take-away. Or they put you under an overhanging branch, leading many a player to step back in amazement during a practice swing, having clattered the tree. And the holes are cut on crazy slopes on all 18 holes, even on dry days.

YOU'VE GOT ME STARTED.....eek

Uh-oh -- now you've got me started too ! I've also experienced tee boxes where it was physically impossible to tee off behind the markers because of the slope behind. In my (admittedly somewhat limited) experience, if the back tees are not in great shape, then the tee areas for the (ahem) shorter hitters among us are far worse !