The 6 Nations - hot or not?

I raised this on old 606 but there are new faces so maybe worth raising again. I'm not a major fan of 6 Nations. Its great to have an international rugby competition and I loved when Ireland won it in 2009. But compared to many other competitions it reallys leaves me a bit unenthused. In reality its no different to the Autumn Internationals. The same 5 games every year - with points difference and the chance of Italy winning a scalp being the main variables.

Just compared to the Lions tour or World Cup or Heienken Cup I'm just left a little wanting. Maybe its my age. Maybe at aged 22 I can't appreciate the years and years of rivalry and maybe I've just been spoiled for choice when I see the sense of occasion and pagentry that other competitions offer.

But the 6 Nations is for me a bit of a damp squib. Shoot me down or agree with me. What do you think.

The rugby is pretty pants at times but for the history, drama, passion and rivalry nothing tops the 6N. I love it, even the WC doesn't get me as excited. I don't think anything will ever top the feeling when Stephen Jones kick sailed under the posts in 2009.

The HEC comes closest for me but I still think the 6N is the best and everything that is great about sport.

I think it is good, while it is not exactly the same as the tri nations I would think both tournaments could do with a shake up.

My thoughts with Argentina coming into the Tri Nations soon will be to actually host these tournaments in one country.

Almost like a NH and SH championship like the world cup.

This way it is rotated between countries and it will be something to look forward to.

I love the Six Nations, fave tournament by far

IMO you cannot beat the 6 Nations.

Admittedly the standard of rugby isn't always the best BUT for sheer passion, drama, rivalry and banter you can't beat it.

I haven't been to Italy yet or the new France and Ireland grounds but you still can't beat a weekend away.

Many life time friends have been made through the years and I use to love staying in the Borders on a Friday night watching the A Side (when we had 1) then travelling up to Murrayfield on the Saturday.

6N is everything about rugby for me.

The Visiting fans, visiting them, the rivalry, the banter, the history it has everything.

Without doubt the highlight of the rugby year.

I freaken love the 6 nations, always have. The only way to describe it is, think back to when you were a kid, christmas is just round the corner your counting down the days....I admit the rugby of late has been pants at times, but i love all the history, the banter, the upsets, how i completely ignore the form of the Welsh team and put money on us to win the grandslam....then we lose our first game.

I prefer the WC to the six nations. But I prefer the premiership to the HEC. Each person has their own preference I suppose. Probably a lot is built around how you introduced to the game.

It's true that the quality of the last couple of tournaments has been relatively poor, but the Six Nations is still the tournament I look forward to above all others.

Another consideration is this: imagine how barren the new year would be without the Six Nations to look forward to.

The wrold cup to me just seems so detatched. Don't get me wrong I love it, but more often than not it takes place half the world away and I don't get to see any games live.

Luckless, I would never for a second consider disbanding the tournament. We need a European international competition but I just don't get that happy about winning the games and sad about losing them.

red_stag wrote:I raised this on old 606 but there are new faces so maybe worth raising again. I'm not a major fan of 6 Nations. Its great to have an international rugby competition and I loved when Ireland won it in 2009. But compared to many other competitions it reallys leaves me a bit unenthused. In reality its no different to the Autumn Internationals. The same 5 games every year - with points difference and the chance of Italy winning a scalp being the main variables.

Just compared to the Lions tour or World Cup or Heienken Cup I'm just left a little wanting. Maybe its my age. Maybe at aged 22 I can't appreciate the years and years of rivalry and maybe I've just been spoiled for choice when I see the sense of occasion and pagentry that other competitions offer.

But the 6 Nations is for me a bit of a damp squib. Shoot me down or agree with me. What do you think.

Its always been a big thing for me the 6'N, from standing in the rain on the terrace at lansdowne road watching Ollie Campbell kick the goals that gave us a triple crown to Dean richards (almost single handedly) annihilating us at twickenham.

The great players like Serge Blanco, Fergus Slattery, Scott Quinnell, Martn Johnson, Phillipe Sella, Finlay Calder etc.

The great upsets from david sole leading scotland to victory in edinburgh in 1990(?) to Italy beating France this year.

Ok. So it doesnt always serve up a rugby feast (been plenty of drab matches to go with the good) but in terms of tradition, history and interest levels among fans it's hard to beat. I'm sure the southern hemisphere nations would love to have the tri-nations running for as long as the 6N has.

I'm the opposite to you Stag. When the 6N is approaching my heart rate starts going! I get excited, nervous, sick feeling the week of the game. It's a huge social thing for me now, especially now that I'm older (33) and a lot of us have kids. Due to the tradition of 6N support and rugby in general (in my friendhip group, but also village/town) this is one of the only things we're allowed out for by the WAGs. They seem to tolerate everything as 'the rugby's on'!!!

6N for me is such a special time of the year, even if Wales are not doing well. It's hard to explain. I love the HC/Amlin but it doesn't get me too excited or patriotic. Maybe that's the difference between the provinces of Ireland and the regions of Wales (aprt from the obvious). In Ireland you seem to live and die for your province. In Wales it is all about your village or town, but as pro rugby has been about the big 10 or so clubs, and now that has been eroded away to 4 towns/'regions', there are rarely big games between towns and villages. In Ireland you have other sports that are provincial too so you have other opportunties to get behind your province and this compounds the pride and identity with your province. In Wales football doesn't work in regions, there's a few biggish teams (well, 1 big, 1 nearly big, 2 lower league, the rest virtually sunday teams) who rarely play each other. Therefore, Gwent as a rugby region doesn't get following for football or baseball, or whatever as it does in ireland for rugby, GAA, etc., nor does the Ospreys region etc. as they are artificial to rugby.

Anyway, slightly off topic there. The 6N for me represents a time of the year where I feel truly patriotic, joining fellow Welsh fans from across the country as one. Nothing else does this for me. I love it!

HammerofThunor wrote:I prefer the WC to the six nations. But I prefer the premiership to the HEC. Each person has their own preference I suppose. Probably a lot is built around how you introduced to the game.

I think it's generational too, maybe. I grew up watching the 5N when Ireland were rubbish (bar Simon Geoghegan) and we used to battle Wales every year for the wooden spoon.

Because of this perspective I cherish every single victory we get and really value winning the Triple Crown, 6N title and above all the GS. It really is a magical tournament and to win it is great achievement.

Maybe some of the younger guys are more used to seeing Ireland win matches but I still take it all with a pinch of salt!

Griff wrote: 6N for me is such a special time of the year, even if Wales are not doing well. It's hard to explain. I love the HC/Amlin but it doesn't get me too excited or patriotic. Maybe that's the difference between the provinces of Ireland and the regions of Wales (aprt from the obvious). In Ireland you seem to live and die for your province. In Wales it is all about your village or town, but as pro rugby has been about the big 10 or so clubs, and now that has been eroded away to 4 towns/'regions', there are rarely big games between towns and villages. In Ireland you have other sports that are provincial too so you have other opportunties to get behind your province and this compounds the pride and identity with your province. In Wales football doesn't work in regions, there's a few biggish teams (well, 1 big, 1 nearly big, 2 lower league, the rest virtually sunday teams) who rarely play each other. Therefore, Gwent as a rugby region doesn't get following for football or baseball, or whatever as it does in ireland for rugby, GAA, etc., nor does the Ospreys region etc. as they are artificial to rugby.

That's exactly how I feel.

I'm not even from Edinburgh but I support them by Default. Kirkcaldy is my rugby team but I need someone to follow at the high levels so since I live on the east coast Edinburgh is my team.

I prefer the Six Nations to the World Cup. For me its like the difference between Band of Brothers and The Paciffic, Band of Brothers is OUR war, The Paciffic was fought half a world away.

I wonder Rodders. I loved watching Ireland win it in 2009 and hated Vincent Clerc pinch the game from us in 2007. However the 2009 2nd Lions test defeat hurt me more and the 2006 Musnter Heineken Cup win was far more special to me.

whatever poor standart of rugby and horrible weather you might get, it will still remain one of the most important event in rugby. It's up there with the RWC. HEC is nice for its variety of clubs and decent number of great games but nowhere near the 6N in terms of passion and history. 6N is the reason why rugby is the number one sport for me.
Cant comment about the Lions as its a british/irish affair anyway.

Hell, I prefer the Six Nations over Christmas. Most wonderful time of the year. Unless Wales lose to England, then my housemates give me hell....

Griff wrote:I'm the opposite to you Stag. When the 6N is approaching my heart rate starts going! I get excited, nervous, sick feeling the week of the game. It's a huge social thing for me now, especially now that I'm older (33) and a lot of us have kids. Due to the tradition of 6N support and rugby in general (in my friendhip group, but also village/town) this is one of the only things we're allowed out for by the WAGs. They seem to tolerate everything as 'the rugby's on'!!!

6N for me is such a special time of the year, even if Wales are not doing well. It's hard to explain. I love the HC/Amlin but it doesn't get me too excited or patriotic. Maybe that's the difference between the provinces of Ireland and the regions of Wales (aprt from the obvious). In Ireland you seem to live and die for your province. In Wales it is all about your village or town, but as pro rugby has been about the big 10 or so clubs, and now that has been eroded away to 4 towns/'regions', there are rarely big games between towns and villages. In Ireland you have other sports that are provincial too so you have other opportunties to get behind your province and this compounds the pride and identity with your province. In Wales football doesn't work in regions, there's a few biggish teams (well, 1 big, 1 nearly big, 2 lower league, the rest virtually sunday teams) who rarely play each other. Therefore, Gwent as a rugby region doesn't get following for football or baseball, or whatever as it does in ireland for rugby, GAA, etc., nor does the Ospreys region etc. as they are artificial to rugby.

Anyway, slightly off topic there. The 6N for me represents a time of the year where I feel truly patriotic, joining fellow Welsh fans from across the country as one. Nothing else does this for me. I love it!

hit the nail on the head there Griff!
Its the only thing we welsh have got to go out en masse. Though i dont have a problem with my girlfriend, she loves rugby and boozing so i can watch rugby as often as i want, which is nice

I still don't like the fact that not all 6N games are truly competitive. In recent years, triple crowns have been devalued (for me) as Scotland, in particular, have been quite weak (that's not to say they don't win the occassional game against the other home nations). I suppose the same is true of Grand Slams, with Italy not being competitive against the top teams. Take Sco and Ita out of the equation and we have a 4N, and if one of the others is having a bad year it becomes a very small competition indeed.

That said the fare is better recently than it was a few years back when IMO NH rugby just wasn't very pretty, and I still love the feast of rugby that comes around early in the New Year. The WC will always supplant the 6N for importance and bragging rights, but the 6N will long have a place in my heart.

I can't get as excited by the HEC as i do about any international rugby. This has a lot to do with the fact that the Chiefs have only just made it into the Jeff and it'll take a while yet for us to progress (hopefully).

As far as the RWC is concerned i don't get as upset if/when we're knocked out as i do when we're beaten in the 6N.

I don't know why, maybe it's the fact that the world cup is more of a festival atmosphere but the 6nations is more visceral, more tribal.

Something deep in all our pasts, going back 1500 years and more, we all love each other really but there's always that sensation that the 6nations is more of a battle than a game.

Probably just me...

red_stag wrote:I wonder Rodders. I loved watching Ireland win it in 2009 and hated Vincent Clerc pinch the game from us in 2007. However the 2009 2nd Lions test defeat hurt me more and the 2006 Musnter Heineken Cup win was far more special to me.

Hey the Lions loss hurt me too. The Lions 1997 tour is one of my favourite memories but the Lions has lost a wee bit of magic lately for me, probably after the 2005 disaster.

Watching Munster win the HEC (and Leinster) was amazing and I'm really hoping Ulster get back there again too. I LOVE the HEC and it has to be my 2nd favourite tournament. Ulster reaching the QF this year was an amazing feeling.

But for me nothing comes close to the 6N. Ireland winning the GS was the best ever for me and blowing the 2007 (and 2001) one is still a sickener. The triple crowns too were all special and beating the other home nations really,really means something.

A WC win would top another GS of course but I'd trade reaching a WC SF for another GS next season for sure.

In purely rugby terms I can see what you mean Red-Stag – the 6N can often be a bit of a let-down. But it still has something special for me – the rivalries, the history, cliche cliche cliche... but it's all true. I love it.

Having said that, the HC is in some ways my favourite tournament to watch these days. A great quality of rugby, real aggression and passion in most games... and some great rivalries are developing there too.

If there's a tournament that leaves me slightly underwhelmed it's the World Cup. Too many easy games for the big teams in the group stages (I know some of them didn't have it quite so easy last time round!). I'd still take another England win in the WC over anything else – a 6N for England or HC or AP for Leicester – but in a way it's a slightly soulless competition sometimes.

If the 6n is predictable then surely a tournament with only 3 teams is more so....

I love the six nations. Sometimes the rugby isnt of the best...but you will not match the ferocity...rivalry, fans anywhere in the world.

I do forsee several years down the line...it being moved to a biannual compeition with the likes of Russia, Georgia etc...making it a European style championship.

Carpe Diem wrote:6nations is more visceral, more tribal.

Something deep in all our pasts, going back 1500 years and more, we all love each other really but there's always that sensation that the 6nations is more of a battle than a game.

Probably just me...

No.... it's not just you!

I know people joke about the supporters in Wales who only come out for internationals and free corporate tickets, but for me that just adds to the swell of excitement on match day. Call me crazy, but I don't even go to the games in the stadium anymore as I prefer the atmosphere in the pubs. Whether that be in my local at home with the regulars and my mates, or the pilgrammage to Cardiff (only 12 miles away!). But for me the match day experience, banter, atmosphere in Cardiff, free curry at half time in the local, guess the score game, away trips, talking about the day the next day, stories of our fathers doing the same thing and their crazy away days in the 60s and 70s, feeling depressed after a loss but soon getting over it with another pint. All these things provide me with memories for life. Club rugby CAN do that but usually on a smaller scale in Wales, and success is far more infrequent in Wales if you're a Newport/Dragons fan! 6N feels like a cup final for me every fixture!

STAGGY – don’t want this to come over as a) patronising b) old foggy – "it were much beeter in my day lad"

You’ve been lucky/unlucky (delete as appropriate) in that you’ve grown up with the HEC, regular AI’s and too a lesser extent summer tours. Those of us of a certain <cough> age, can remember the 5 Nations as the ‘only game in town’ most seasons . The plus side of that was also the sense of excitement and mystic when a ‘tour’ was over. In my first 30 years the Big 3 only toured as follows
ALL BLACKS – 1963, 1967, 1972, 1978, 1980 & 1989
SPRINGBOKS – 1970 (notwithstanding the boycott)
WALLABIES – 1966, 1973, 1978, 1981 & 1984

As for Wales overseas tours
ALL BLACKS – 1969 & 1988
SPRINGBOKS - 1964
WALLABIES – 1969 & 1978

Blydi kids today, don’t know their born

One of the great things about the six nations is that it goes through peaks and troughs. In the 20's the average points scored went down to 9 per match which means that the matches were high in intensity but low in scoring. similarly to now when we have more focus on defence than on attack in many cases.

It may not be brilliant at the moment but it only takes a period of two or three teams being able to compete closely with high standards for it to liven up. Look at the rivalries between Wales and France in the 70's and England and France in the 90's.

The six nations is a brilliant tournament and Red Stag maybe you should read about the history of it and learn about some of the early characters, like the irish player who wore a monocle and took it out to drop a goal...maybe if you can see the ups and downs in history you might be more enthusiastic about it in the future...god knows it's the only thing that keeps me going as a half welsh half scotsman

Another thing about the 6N which makes it special is that every game is an entity in itself with it's own sense of occaision. Obviously the Ultimate goal is to win the GS but each match is important in it's own right e.g. the Calcutta cup.

You don't really get that in the WC. If you lose thats it it doesn't really matter who you beat along the way. Ireland had a poor 6N but to beat England as well as Italy and Scotland away still means something even if the overall result was disappointing. Italy beating France was amazing even though they still finished bottom.

Because of the rivalries there's always something to play for no matter where you are in the table.

It is interesting though. Will the generation who have grown up with professionalism be more interested in the new tournaments like the world cup or the HEC than the old one with all the history? Ok the six nations perhaps doesn't carry the same prestige as the world cup so maybe the kids (without wanting to be patronising) see it as less important. It is a valid point too. With the world cup and tours do we even need the six nations?

Eustace H Plimsoll wrote:If there's a tournament that leaves me slightly underwhelmed it's the World Cup... in a way it's a slightly soulless competition sometimes.

Mr Plimsoll, I agree with you. I'll watch it and I'll enjoy it, but it doesn't mean all that much to me.

luckless_pedestrian wrote:

Eustace H Plimsoll wrote:If there's a tournament that leaves me slightly underwhelmed it's the World Cup... in a way it's a slightly soulless competition sometimes.

Mr Plimsoll, I agree with you. I'll watch it and I'll enjoy it, but it doesn't mean all that much to me.

I feel the same, maybe its due to Wales' lack of success in it, I rarely feel we will achieve something.

Lads I will be perfectly honest. I am not sitting down with books to read past results from 40 and 50 years ago. If you are suggesting I need to do that to get enthused by it there is something wrong with the tournament. Its nowhere near that bad. I like it and wouldn't consider getting rid of it.

But there is better out there IMO.

munkian wrote:I prefer the Six Nations to the World Cup. For me its like the difference between Band of Brothers and The Paciffic, Band of Brothers is OUR war, The Paciffic was fought half a world away.

bullseye

it wont bother me as much if we lose to australia and south africa and come home
as much as losing to england wales and scotland in one year

6 Nations for all the reasons outlined above - my pulse races like never before and the emotional roller coaster for all nations is always evident.

Six Nations is also about bragging rights and banter - I know alot more English/Welsh and Irish People than anyone else.

I've made hosuemates kiss my Welsh shirt in 2008 everyday for a month then had to drink from an English mug for a month a few years later

Do you not think there is a sense of pagentry, rivalry and occasion in the other competitions too?

red_stag wrote:Do you not think there is a sense of pagentry, rivalry and occasion in the other competitions too?

Yes but not to the same extent. The 6N rivalries run deeper than any other in my opinion.

Stag, there's the home and away element to the Six Nations, too. If you lose to someone at home, you know you'll have to wait two years until you can put things right.

red_stag wrote:Do you not think there is a sense of pagentry, rivalry and occasion in the other competitions too?

Not at the same level, no.

Club teams are non country specific (expect when the Dragons put out an all Welsh 15)

World Cup - you rarely get the same 6 Nations teams playing each other and its a war of attrition most of the time - all about strength in depth taken to the Nth degree.

red_stag wrote:Do you not think there is a sense of pagentry, rivalry and occasion in the other competitions too?

There are rivalries, as an Edinburgh fan I see Ulster as our main Rivals, many thanks to some of the brilliant matches we had when Robbo in charge.

But Ireland's provincial nature lends itself to loyalty to the region rather than the country.

I love Weslh derbies, dont get me wrong, this year was especially fun in the Magners (rip) but its not the same as supporting Wales.

red_stag wrote:Do you not think there is a sense of pagentry, rivalry and occasion in the other competitions too?

Not really, i'll watch most HC games, but the majority of my mates are not bothered with the HC and will only watch a few non welsh games during the world cup. For the 6 nations we'll move heaven and earth to watch all games played

red_stag wrote:Lads I will be perfectly honest. I am not sitting down with books to read past results from 40 and 50 years ago. If you are suggesting I need to do that to get enthused by it there is something wrong with the tournament. Its nowhere near that bad. I like it and wouldn't consider getting rid of it.

But there is better out there IMO.

Stag, agree totally. Honestly, there's a lot of misty-eyed rose-tinted tradition stuff being written on this thread about the 6N - and before I'm jumped for being a young pup who wasn't around in the glory days of the 5N and 6N, I'm in my late 50's and was watching 5N back in the 1960's when Mike Gibson was to Ireland then what ROG and Jonny Sexton are now.

I was as thrilled as anybody by our grand slam a couple of years ago, but I'd bet loads that Munster fans probably got a bigger buzz by their HC wins on 2006 and 2008 just as my biggest rugby buzz was Leinster's HC wins in 2009 and 2011. I'll always watch the 6N matches and will get excited when Ireland are doing well and down the dumps when we play shoyte or allow ourselves to be robbed like v France in Croker in 2007, but I think the HC matches at the highest level have a level of passion and intensity that most 6N matches just can't match. The Munster-Leinster semi final in 2009 was a memorable event (and not just because Leinster won) but because the level of passion from both sets of supporters in a crowd of more than 82,000 that isn't always replicated in a 6N game unless it's against England

And I would suggest too that at the highest level, the quality and standard of rugby in the HC is higher than in many 6N games. Guy Noves himself said that the Leinster-Toulouse semi-final this year was more intense and of a higher quality than many internationals - and I think few would disagree with that. Likewise the quarter-final match against the Tigers.

This thread is a bit like an earlier when people were comparing Ireland getting a grand slam against getting to a world cup semi-final. WC semi won hands down for me then. Don't get me wrong, next February I'll be getting very excited by our 6N matches (even the one against Scotland - but if Leinster, Munster, Ulster or Connacht are in the HC quarter-finals my excitement will be way way higher.

I can understand why other nations may not have the same attachment to HC - there's no doubt that the provincial structure and base of Irish rugby is very strong and isn't matched by the structure in England, Scotland and Wales.

Wahey - one supporter

brennomac wrote:
And I would suggest too that at the highest level, the quality and standard of rugby in the HC is higher than in many 6N games. Guy Noves himself said that the Leinster-Toulouse semi-final this year was more intense and of a higher quality than many internationals - and I think few would disagree with that. Likewise the quarter-final match against the Tigers.

I agree with this totally. The standard in the HEC is definitely higher and the matches you've mentioned were breathtaking. However for passion and rivalry the 6N still tops the HEC and I'd rather see Ireland win another GS than Ulster win the HEC again, although ideally I'll see both .

BURN THE HERETICS!!!!!

Only kidding, it really is horses for courses and the beauty of rugby is that there is a competition for everyone.

roddersm wrote: I'd rather see Ireland win another GS than Ulster win the HEC again

Madness You'd rather Ireland won 5 games over 6 weeks than Ulster navigating their way out of a pool stage and through a quarter, semi and a final winner take all showdown

The historic rivalries are what make the Six Nations special. A century of rugby rivalry and much more historic rivalry. I remember being absolutely unable to even contemplate losing to England in Croke Park in '07. I t was unthinkable. And the sight of big John Hayes and the Fla blubbing like babies as the national anthem was pelted out showed it meant as much to the players as the fans. The fact that the Irish crowd applauded the English anthem and the English players applauded the Irish crowd after the Irish anthem made it just brilliant. Respecting each others history and feeling the emotion. The fact is the histories of the nations involved could barely be more intertwined. Thats what fills the stadiums and fuels the passion.

The problem with the tournament at the moment however is the quality of rugby being played. The HEC is better in that respect. And no team in the Six Nations seems to be able to string two good seasons together recently. It's currently not a case of how many teams will play superbly and fight for the title. It's a question of how many teams will play badly. When many Irish fans were giving out about 'that try' in Cardiff, I was just in shock at how poor and unimaginative the rugby was. From both teams.

It was right to admit Italy. But they have added very little in the first decade. The win against France this year was brilliant. Hopefully it's a sign of things to come from them. England, Ireland and Wales aren't far off being very good attacking teams. We all know what the French are capable of. Hopefully the Six Nations will rise to a new level during the next World Cup cycle.