Thoughts on how 'elite' U20s are

This is the Wales coach's view but how does everyone feel about their respective U20s?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/13887120.stm

Is there a reason Ireland, Wales and Scotland can't compete at the top at this level? Is there a better way to develop younger players? Webster says here: "We're trying to create an elite in the Under-20s, but they are elite in what? They are elite trainers, they are elite at taking supplements, they are elite at looking at videos and looking at computers.

"They aren't elite under pressure and knowing what their bodies can do and what pain is all about."

Are Ireland, Wales and Scotland any different? I covered the U19 (when it was called that) in Belfast in 2007 and I remember speaking to Kieran Crowley who was the Baby Blacks coach and he said other teams at that age needed to be something really special to beat them because his team were twice the size of the others. Baby Boks were really the only ones who could compete.

How have England bridged that gap? Do their players hit the F+C younger than other nations?

Think Webster's bang on the money. They emphasis seems to be on producing athletes rather than rugby players. So many of these lads just never seem to actually play rugby! They look totally bemused when they're up against it at this level.

Attitude is a huge problem in Welsh rugby at the moment - and I think it mainly comes from the fact a lot of these young lads end up getting fairly lucrative contracts/acadamy places almost by default. They don't seem to earn their places in these teams through playing and as a consequence they're just not hungry enough!

I think when the Welsh Premiership gets ring fenced in 2013 we may see an improvement. I think the whole reasoning behind this move is to allow younger players to get game time in competitive fixtures without too much worry on relegation. This will allow the premiership clubs to try youngsters who have 'potential' and see if they can cut it on the field.

I was really disappointed with our U20's this year there didn't seem to be any real quality players that stood out. Maybe Morgan from time to time but he also made a lot of mistakes.

Impossible Standards wrote:I think when the Welsh Premiership gets ring fenced in 2013 we may see an improvement. I think the whole reasoning behind this move is to allow younger players to get game time in competitive fixtures without too much worry on relegation. This will allow the premiership clubs to try youngsters who have 'potential' and see if they can cut it on the field.

I was really disappointed with our U20's this year there didn't seem to be any real quality players that stood out. Maybe Morgan from time to time but he also made a lot of mistakes.

I agree, but ive Morgan play live and he is something special. He did make mistakes, but he's still learning his trade he'll only learn from these mistakes and go on to become a better player

I think Wales field a lot of 18 year olds in the comp. which leaves quite a gap to the 20 year old NZ'rs - We use it as development as much as anything and it must be seen in that contaxt otherwise we'd have North, Prydie and others in the squad.

I agree, but ive Morgan play live and he is something special. He did make mistakes, but he's still learning his trade he'll only learn from these mistakes and go on to become a better player

Well hopefully this will happen but he needs the correct development path to take him from Welsh Premiership to Magners league. I guess its down to Swansea/Ospreys how they handle this now.

Impossible Standards wrote:

I agree, but ive Morgan play live and he is something special. He did make mistakes, but he's still learning his trade he'll only learn from these mistakes and go on to become a better player

Well hopefully this will happen but he needs the correct development path to take him from Welsh Premiership to Magners league. I guess its down to Swansea/Ospreys how they handle this now.

Very true, hope they dont make a mess of it like hook. I watched him down at the brewery field this year when the ospreys played Leicester in the LV cup. They both teams put out youngsters, but morgan must have been one of the youngest on the pitch. It was pouring down and windy, morgan cut leicester to pieces. he's got a good boot on him too

I don`t really know where this thread is going but,England have played 7 matches building up to U20 RWC successfully I`ve heard.
By contrast the Baby Blacks played one warm up game and bang,but several of the squad have been in Junior S15 squads.Training with and even starting for there franchises.
Take Luke Whitelock ,but a member of a highly talented Canterbury and Crusaders squad.Training with his brothers,Dan Carter,Captain Tackles,Matt Todd ,Kieron Reid.
If you can`t learn from that Company.?

Sorry but by trying to downgrade the value of the U20s tournament you are just making exuses.

NZ took Wales completely and utterly apart. Over 90 points scored. You then lost to Fiji. Sorry but Welsh rugby should be seriously worried, instead of hiding its head in the sand, you need to face facts - ok so New Zealand's pacific island heritage players may mature earlier... but not early enough to justify a 90 point loss. A 90 point loss by Japan to the All Blacks would be a different matter, but not when you are supposed to be one of the few elite professional rugby nations in the world.

Mr Thunder wrote:Sorry but by trying to downgrade the value of the U20s tournament you are just making exuses.

No one has downgraded the JWC.

We all are shocked by how poorly Wales under 20s did against the Baby All Blacks. But Wales also gave a reasonable account of themselves against Italy 6-56 to Wales, (BABs Beat Italy 64-7) and Argentina 8 - 34 to Wales (BABs won 48 - 15).

The team are young as mentioned above an will surely have learnt a lot ready for next year. Most importantly they play a great brand of rugby. One that they were not allowed to play against the baby all blacks.

92 - 0 is a shocking result. Inquests have started.

Mr Thunder wrote:Sorry but by trying to downgrade the value of the U20s tournament you are just making exuses.

NZ took Wales completely and utterly apart. Over 90 points scored. You then lost to Fiji. Sorry but Welsh rugby should be seriously worried, instead of hiding its head in the sand, you need to face facts - ok so New Zealand's pacific island heritage players may mature earlier... but not early enough to justify a 90 point loss. A 90 point loss by Japan to the All Blacks would be a different matter, but not when you are supposed to be one of the few elite professional rugby nations in the world.

Clearly there are a lot of issues and a lot of talking points springing up in the discussion.
It was pointed out today that New Zealand only take players to the tournament who are just under the age limit, so it's their final year to possibly play. While Wales tend to take players who can potentially play in the next 2 tournaments for the future.
New Zealand also tend to send their players abroad in the year before this to "get life experiance" apparently it's believed while their abroad they learn a lot of things.
Another issue seems to be the lack of quality for the boys to play in below the Magners and many of our U20's have played few games this year, as they've mainly been sat on the bench for the regions or premiership clubs.
If you look at the comparative results between us and New Zealand over the last few years we are normally 30 points behind them so 92 points in this year is certainly a shock, I think lessons have to be learned but altering the Welsh Premiership was high on the agenda before this tournament anyway.
Though the players attitude in that New Zealand game was a disgrace and thats nothing to do with coaching.
Basically the first team smashed Italy and Argentina and the second team got smashed by New Zealand and threw it away against Fiji. It's only one World Cup and we play this tournament every year so I don't think we need to beat ourselves up to much to be honest.

Isn't the following pretty disrespectful?

"We were naive in the contact area and naive in our execution of everything," said Webster, who was elevated from assistant coach when Darren Edwards took over at the Dragons in April.

"We just didn't turn up. We knew which way we wanted to play. We knew Fiji didn't have a game - they didn't have a lineout, they didn't have a kicking game, they were disorganised in defence."

DaveM wrote:Isn't the following pretty disrespectful?

Webster never has taken any prisoners.
He just calls it how he sees it and doesn't care if someone is offended. As far as he is concerned Wales should of won and he won't spare the players blushes if they made errors. We need more people who are honest in Wales.

You can be honest without insulting your opposition in public.

DaveM wrote:You can be honest without insulting your opposition in public.

I agree, but like I said Webster wont care.

Excellent, saved me from rewriting an article on this after my net disconnected upon hitting Send

I think Webster has hit the nail on the head. Wales' youth development programme simply does not measure up to the elite, starting from school rugby all the way up.

It looks to me as if the true meaning of will and determination is not taught to the players within this structure. This might contribute partly to the lessons in physicality and pressure we constantly recieve, though I'm not convinced the material aspects of these are emphasized enough either.

Also spot on about the regions and youth. Morgan and Shingler have looked outstanding throughout the season when called up to the regions, yet have had to settle for a huge majority of Welsh Prem action. It's just not enough.

I'd say Wales are on the same page as Scotland and Italy in terms of neglecting the youth resources available to them. Ireland, England and France exceed us in this department, as well as every Big 3 side needless to say.

I think you also have to look at the structure from Schoolboys up,in NZ there
is a highly competetive ethos of well coached teams.
Many of the lads and teams will have relatives who have played coached at ITM,S15,or even All Black level.
Long before they get to Test Schools,or Under Age team level.