Time to Scrap Amateur Golf

Is it not about time that golf followed the example of tennis and just had players.
The amateur golf scene is such a sham.
In my opinion the sport would benefit if the different tiers of the game would merge into one.

Doon the Water wrote:
The amateur golf scene is such a sham.

Care to elaborate?

The average age of a top amateur nowadays is, I would imagine 17 years.
They have never worked at anything and play golf full time.
The supporting amateur associations make it easy for them to recieve sponsorship in the form of trusts and prize money in the form of easily convertable into cash vouchers.
They are by any standards full time golf professionals and to call them amateurs is a total sham.

Whereas 3,000 to 6,000 miles to your west, all Collegiate Golf is totally subsidised. Not necessarily agree with yr thesis DtW, just saying!

Don't suppose Patrick Cantlay has paid for golf balls or clubs for many years . . . .

kwinigolfer wrote: Patrick Cantlay

It will take a long time for all the jokes associated with this name to get old.

I do wonder what difference it would make to anyone if any golfer could take unlimited prizes for winning. There was a golf journalist a few years ago hit a hole-in-one in a Pro-Am which had a (very nice) car as a prize. In order to claim this prize, he had to relinquish his amateur status, which he decided to do. Then he had to apply to become and amateur once again. What a palaver! Doing away with amateurism would also allow young golfers to "have a go" at golf "professionally" more easily.

Exactly golfermartin.
Far too many talentless rich kids clogging up the system at the moment.

Pardon me if I'm being stupid, but if you do away with amateur golf, would that not mean the end of club golfers? Or are we exempt? Where would you draw the line? Doesn't sponsoring these talented players help them develop into top pros?

Abandon amateurism? Absolutely not.

Amateurism is what makes golf great, and what makes the pro game what it is.

I don't think any right thinking club golfer would want to be playing for cash prizes, and against people with a pro mentality. Bringing money into sport is always to the detriment of the sport.

No way.

George
But they are playing for 'cash' prizes new, so tell me the difference.
Many 'amateur associations give M&S vouchers as 'prizes'.
If that was you giving your employees a bonus for good work the revenue see it as cash.
Club golf would not change unless the members wanted it to do.

sorry new should read now.

I still can't see what your issue is?

Is your arguement that amatuers are 'paid' anyway, so whats the difference?

I'm not sure what level of support amatuer receive from international unions for travel expenses etc but the rules are petty clear that the expenses are just that and prize money should not exceed £500 in any form?
I'm sure elite amateurs get assistance with new clubs etc and balls? Do you have a specific problem with this?
Am i being naive? Are you accusing elite amateurs of breaking rules or are you having a go at the rules of amatuer status themselves?
Should I not be allowed £30 in pro shop vouchers for winning a medal?

Can you explain this a bit more?

Cheers

In my opinion it is just a totally useless seperation of a sport going back three centuries and based on totally out of date snobbish values.
I think Boxing is the only other sport that still has this wierd seperation.

I think golfers are totally brainwashed into continuing with the status quo.

Doon the Water wrote:In my opinion it is just a totally useless seperation of a sport going back three centuries and based on totally out of date snobbish values.
I think Boxing is the only other sport that still has this wierd seperation.

I think golfers are totally brainwashed into continuing with the status quo.

I think you are totally wrong. Amateur golf is so much fun and so enjoyable for most people because it is just that - amateur. Mixing professionalism, with all of its insidious effects will damage irreparably what so many people love and cherish. It's not about snobbish values, it's about doing it for the love of it - that's what 'amateur' means. It's not an out of date idea - it's getting stronger. I've never met anyone anywhere - except you - who thinks amateurism isn't absolutely right for club golfers.

I agree 100% with George, amateur golf is all about people's pursuit of a sport with nothing to be gained other than the satisfaction of performing to the best of their abilities, unless of course they are 'elite' with a view to playing professionally.

i understand your logic doon, and i dont think it would make any difference to the game if there was no amateur status. the best golfers would still be batteling it out every week, on the telly or at the 36 hole open or at the club monthly medal.....but are you suggesting getting rid of handicaps as this is what seperates the profesional from amateur essentially...or do we give profesionals a handicap???

as an amatuer i dont play for the spoils and as such i would be happy if my club stopped giving vouchers as prizes alltogether.

George
Would you care to elaborate on what insidious effects you think this would make to golf. I find that comment quite insulting
I have played both codes and I can tell you there is a large number of amateur golfers who would cheat to gain the advantage of winning a monthly medal and a £30 pro shop voucher. In the Pro game it is almost non existant.
I have many friends who are Pro golfers and they love and cherish the game far greater than your average club golfer

Offthehosel.
It would make very little difference, just simplify the process.
Of course I would assume that club members would wish to retain the handicap system.
It is used throughout the land by amateurs who play matches for money and prizes. There would be no such term as professionals just golfers.

We don't talk about professional tennis players do we and the tennis club structure seems to be increasing its numbers.

doon

does tennis have a handicapping system ? i have no idea if it does.

if there was no status just golfers then how dowe decide who has a handicap and who doesnt, and does it mean monty could rock up to royal troon and play the medal ?

I know a few pros who are members of clubs with a handicap and play in club competitions. Under present rules this is fine, but they are not allowed to play in club matches or amateur open meetings. They generally by-pass the club championship. I know multiple Open winner Peter Thompson plays in R&A events.
As I keep repeating the handicap system would probably stay as it is. There would be very little difference. Things would just be a lot simpler.
Suitably skilled golfers could be paid for coaching at club and school levels.
This would be a big benefit to rural areas who miss out on coaching as at present amateurs cannot be paid to coach.
Not sure if Monty is a member of Royal Troon, if he was he could play in the medal now, if club rules permit.

Professional Tenniser is that the right name.

Not sure about club tennis
I belive clubs operate an in house handicap system for social games.

Tennis handicaps?
I know there's a regional system here which monitors tennis players' levels, but it's not a formal handicap system. More to "flight" players in tournaments featuring different levels of competitor.

I'm not really sure where there would be a benefit to scrapping amateur golf?!? The pro side in the UK seems to be thriving just fine as it is and to compare golf to tennis is an absolute joke with the lack of top tennis players compared with the abundance of top golf pro's - maybe tennis should think about defining their participants more clearly into professional and amateur!?! Cheating in the amateur game happens but it's only by a minority and those that have rather unscrupulous morals will still cheat regardless of their status.

To me it seems like the solution to no problem...

sharrison,

I'm with you...

I can't see a problem?

What about the dwindling membership lists and the number of golf clubs in dire straights. I would consider that a problem, especially if you are also take into consideration the reduced number of young folk playing.

DTW,

I don't think it's so much about cheating. It's about the attitude that people have for the game, and why they play it. Some of the things I don't like about professionalism - and pro golf - are for example - not bothering to go out for a second round if you can't win (like the Open qualifying events recently - over 20 people quit after round one, and one guy who had a chance of qualifying was left standing on the tee with nobody to play with. The committee had to stop play ahead and let him join a group ahead). Or not playing in events because the prize money isn't enough. Or relying on an army of volunteers to mark out the course so that every GUR is marked and every water hazard signified.

If you want pro golf then, by definition, people will try to make a living at it. Attitudes change and instead of doing it for the love of it, which is what amateurism means, players would be doing it for some reward.

Until that happens, and please God it never does, pros are not allowed to participate in amateur events regardless of what the club says. Some clubs don't allow professionals in the clubhouse, or allow them only to play with prior permission. That's anachronistic, but making golf 'open' would be disastrous, and the end of the way most people like it, and what makes it so much fun.

I really can't see how less people playing the game or joining golf clubs would be dramatically changed by removing the amateur status?!? There are far better ways of encouraging people, particularly young people, to the game. Someone starting out is not going to be interested in the slightest what status they possess and if people enjoy the game then they will play, again regardless of status.

Golf memberships are, in part, suffering from their false market that has been seen for years. The R & A have constantly reported that there are long waiting lists at private clubs when in reality a golfer will put their name down on several lists and then join the one that comes up first. Combine this with golf being more available and affordable and it points to private clubs simply having a poor business model. When golf was more elitist it worked because you were essentially a member of a private club so that you played with people of a similar stature. However, the boom of the late 90's to 2007 created a lot of new money that meant that people from all sorts of backgrounds could afford to be a member of a private club. This negates the point and privately owned pay and play courses are strong because they are a good alternative to private courses.

Got to agree woth DTW all the way on this a subject we have discussed before on the old board.
PGA and R/A maintain a vice like grip on our game.
Few points.
Why should a pro have to wait several years before playing as an amateur.
If I wanted to organise a golf tournament i would have to go to the Midlands PGA and they would bring their members along on their terms.
Why am I or anyone else prevented from earning a living through golf(teaching maybe-bringing on new players)by amateur status rules.
Good example of the full time amateur was gary Wolstenhome-given a 'course managers'job by effectively his sponsor.
Tours would survive exactly as now as would handicap system if we could remove the handcuffs.revolution has begun!

dynamark wrote:PGA and R/A maintain a vice like grip on our game.
Few points.
Why should a pro have to wait several years before playing as an amateur.

They don't. A friend requested his amateur status back from the R&A after playing on a tour and was given it within a few weeks.

dynamark wrote:
If I wanted to organise a golf tournament i would have to go to the Midlands PGA and they would bring their members along on their terms.

It's called sanctioning and it would mean that your event would count on their order of merit and as such is more likely to attract the players. As well as make the courses more liable to turn themselves over to you for a few weeks. And even give a degree of credibility to the event which will then attract sponsors from local businesses.

dynamark wrote:
Why am I or anyone else prevented from earning a living through golf(teaching maybe-bringing on new players)by amateur status rules.
Good example of the full time amateur was gary Wolstenhome-given a 'course managers'job by effectively his sponsor.

You're not. Go out and get a teaching accreditation if you want. Or a job in the industry somewhere else.

Dyna...

1. This stops an amateur from just switching his/her status to professional and then back to amateur every time they win something. Otherwise, amateur competitions would all be won by ex-pros that didn't make it and this infringes upon up and coming young amateurs.

2. This is surely to ensure that the tournament that you organise is done in a fair and ethical manner. Otherwise, what is to stop someone from setting a tournament up with a first prize of £1m and then charging £1000 entrance and letting their bandit mate win it for a cut of the entrance fees. Doesn't really seem unreasonable to me.

3. This is no different to being qualified in other fields. I cannot perform open brain surgery because I am not a qualified surgeon and if you remove all barriers for working in a field then the average quality is less. How annoying and difficult would it be for an up and coming young pro to have to compete with average cat 1 players that have little hope of making it - not really a great test to get yourself ready for the tour?!?

It just doesn't seem like there is a problem with the current system. There would be a significant cost involved in changing it and this money would surely be better spent developing young players and ensuring that the levels of competition at professional and amateur level are better.

Guys Ill try to respond.
If the ex pros didnt make it they would join the pool of decent amateurs(just golfers).Mate of mine had to wait 2 years for his status back he could play but no comps.
The prizes at top amatuer events arent much different from your average club pro am.The point Im making is that in my comp at my club I have to accept someone elses players and prize structure.Lets say I wanted to put on the John Smiths golf trophy with a prize of £5000 for best gross i couldnt -full stop.Amateur comes 2nd in the county open and he has to miss out on the prize money which gets passed down to the guy who finished next-crazy
If I want to play amatuer golf I am not allowed under current rules to be paid for teaching the game -ridiculous.
Cannot see where the heavy cost would come from.

Dyna... that just sounds like you want to be able to jump from one side of the fence to the other without any restrictions.

The main difference between amateur and professional golf is ability. This is best exemplified when you look at the scores posted in say The Masters by the amateur invitees who are normally the National Champions of both US and GB and who probably have a handicap of around +3 or +4. They very rarely manage to break 80 and this is the cream of amateur golf. I am not sure that making golf "open" would allow amatuers to win much....a lot of lesser pros might quite fancy picking up easy money at the competitions which are presently amateur. We have a couple of pros who play in winter leagues at my club one plays the Tartan Tour and even though he is not a leading light he has a notional handicap of +6. It's a different ball game as a pro.

LJ .Not likely to apply to me in reality .I just cant see what the point of the fence is.
Lets say Im a real good young player maybe plus 1.Why cant I enter the county open and win a few hundred quid(declare to HM treasury of course)
Why do I at some point have to'turn professional'.Doesnt do anything IMO .we all play by the same rules of golf.There would still be a PGA but I shouldnt have to join it to win a few quid.The teaching/amatuer status thing is just daft if we are trying to encourage and coach new players.I love the game and its history but someone should take a look at this.

Nobody is forcing anyone to be professional. You can be +6 if you like and remain amateur.
However the definition of a professional is someone who earns a living from something whilst amateur is the opposite.
If you want to earn a living from golf, turn professional or learn to be a teaching pro, if you want to play in amateur comps, then stay amateur.

The only people who would have an issue with the current status quo are amateurs who wish to teach golf for a leaving and have no desire to play pro comps…

To these people I would says its not entirely appropriate for a club pro the teach members during the week before competing against them in amateur comps at the weekend. I know I would be uncomfortable with this arrangement, bit of a conflict of interest…this doesn’t mean you can’t play against them in special comps (e.g. beat the pro/ captain-pro challenges etc)

For those wanting to teach golf on an amateur basis, then there is not problem with this as long as you don’t receive money. Countless people volunteer to help run sport teams all over the country…

The other people maybe be very talented amateurs status who wish to compete at a higher level, but not take the leap to full blown pro status. These people can test themselves if they are high in the world amateur rankings by getting invites to pro events, if they think they are good enough and wish to earn some money they should turn pro and do just that.

two weeks time there will be a bunch of talented guys trying to get through final qualifying for the open.A few will make it and if one of them happens to come joint 35th I see no reason why they should not be given the cheque for £20k and a pat on the back well played.

I'm afraid that I still don't see where there is a problem with our game at the moment?!? This seems like a minor issue that would only make a difference to a very few top amateurs/failed tour pro's but a change that would then affect competitive golf for everyone. I'm sure that nobody complains at getting vouchers rather than cash - they are a bonus for simply playing a game for enjoyment and golf vouchers are of no use to the missus anyway so if anything are better.

Much like the Japanese heated toilet seat - the solution to no problem...

There is amateurs in every sport, why should golf be any different.
For many it's a stepping stone on the way to becoming a professional. What's the problem, if you are good enough to come top 35 in The Open, then turn pro and reap the benefits of a pro career.

I'm sure the motivation here was to create a thought provoking debate so well done Doon
What I think you're getting at is... Let's have a look at tearing down the barriers between Amateurs & Pros in golf.
If an amateur is good enough to qualify for the open, good on him, if he then goes on to have a top 10 finish why shouldn't he have the prizemoney that goes with it? He will have paid his entry fee like everyone else? Why should he be denied a windfall because of his status. He may suspect that he's not consistently good enough to earn a living from tournament prizemoney over the medium term so why should he be compelled to turn pro to be able to receive prizemoney.


Why would the handicap system be under threat if the distinction between am & pro status was removed. The handicap system would remain and comps would be arranged either as handicap or scratch events.

On a slightly different tack, I taught martial arts for a few years. I did it for the love of it and enjoyed it. I didn't make much if anything from it, as long as my own expenses were covered that was enough for me, my day job pays quite well. Around the same time though 2 or 3 fellow instructors dived more professionally into teaching and gave up their day jobs to give it a go. I was able to make my choice, they were able to make theirs. Neither of us had to commit to being a "professional" and have to abide by a different code.

In golf at the moment it's a huge ask financially for a promising kid to have a go at turning pro. It seems to me a huge step from playing amateur events for no money (against other amateurs) to stepping into the pro ranks and competing for money with seasoned pros. Only an elite few with parents with deep pockets or those fortunate enough to get sponsorship stand the remotest chance of making it,

Cheers Dyna I was starting to feel very lonley here!

There are a few folk getting stuck on fairly trivial points.
I see this as a quiet revolution and, despite what many say, it is bound to happen. The only question is when.

Free your mind.
Dont think amateur or pro, just golfers.
Then put a structure together that will support this.

Sorry SR missed your point.

What sports other than boxing and golf have amateurs?
I am sure there are some but I can't think of any.

DTW, what sport doesn't more like?
Every sport has participants who compete at every level in an organised amateur environment, and each of these sports have people taking part at a very high level, albeit amateur, for example Football, Tennis, Rugby, Cricket, Athletics, horse riding, cycling etc etc.
Where do you think the pro ranks come from?

I can't think of a sport which DOESN'T have an amateur tier to it, can you?

I think all of the above mentioned sports are represented by one [each] organisation.

Just as golf is, I don't see the point you are making. There are amateurs in every sport, golf is no different.

super_realist wrote:Nobody is forcing anyone to be professional. You can be +6 if you like and remain amateur.
However the definition of a professional is someone who earns a living from something whilst amateur is the opposite.
If you want to earn a living from golf, turn professional or learn to be a teaching pro, if you want to play in amateur comps, then stay amateur.

That is so succinctly put, and so concise, there's no reason for anyone to say anything else.

Incidentally, if you want to see the effect that professionalism has on sport, watch the tennis right now on BBC 2. The scenario -

1. Nadal calls an injury break between the 12th game and the tie break.
2. Del Potro objects. (Why - is Nadal entitled to an injury break - if he is, then that's fine, if he's not then why is there a dispute?)
3. There's a five minute delay while the doctor and physio attend.
4. Nadal plays the tie break as though nothing is wrong with him, and wins it.
5. Del Potro objects again, to no avail.

So, the question is either - is Nadal faking it? He wouldn't do that if they weren't professional? - or is Del Potro entitled to complain - surely the rules must cover this somehow. Either way, one of them is wrong, and doing what they shouldn't because they want to win. Because they are professionals. In 1966 Roy Emerson lost his QF because he crashed into the umpire's chair and was injured. He couldn't play well enough after that because of his injury, but he carried on to lose. Why did he carry on - because he was playing for the love of the game, not for the money. If that happened today, the guy would just retire and walk off, and the people paying to watch would be deprived of the spectacle.

Professionalism might seem glamorous and the way forward, but the reality is that it ruins just about every sport where it appears. Rugby Union was a great game before it went pro - now teams that used to be successful (ie offering a good time to members and players) are disappearing all the time because players expect to be paid.

If you want to teach golf, or play for money, then that's fine, but you are using your expertise and knowledge for your advantage, so that's professionalism. Please don't bring professionalism into golf and ruin the game for the 99.9% who love being amateur.

SR
I can't believe that you are not aware or R&A and the PGA

George
There are loads of shamateurs who earn a very good living from golf, as I explained earlier. They just have to break stupid rules and duck and dive a bit.
It is not black and white, the amateur scene has always been a bit murky.

They aren't stupid rules. They might seem stupid to you, if you want to switch continually between the glory of the amateur game and the money of the pro game. To everyone else, they protect what we love about golf - that we can compete on level terms with anyone.

It seems to clear to me that - if you win a car for having a hole in one - that is earning something out of playing golf. So, be a pro and earn your money that way.

Personally I wouldn't allow a guy who has been a pro to return to amateur status inside 10 years. That's probably very old fashioned, but I think that's what most amateurs really think. The R&A and USGA take a very liberal line on this for most people I think.

Doon the Water wrote:George
There are loads of shamateurs who earn a very good living from golf, as I explained earlier. They just have to break stupid rules and duck and dive a bit.
It is not black and white, the amateur scene has always been a bit murky.

No it hasn't. The amateur game was always crystal clear until relatively recently. Players like Bobby Jones and Roger Wethered and Joyce Wethered and Ronnie Shade and Michael Bonallack and Joe Carr and Jay Sigel considered themselves as amateurs and didn't play for money when they were amateurs. Some of them turned pro, and that's fine with me, but they didn't expect to jump back to being amateur when the occasion suited.