Time to Scrap Amateur Golf

First topic message reminder :

Is it not about time that golf followed the example of tennis and just had players.
The amateur golf scene is such a sham.
In my opinion the sport would benefit if the different tiers of the game would merge into one.

George
You know what they say.

'poor laws are made to be broken by wise men.'

..........and yes I would agree with you that you are very old fashioned.

george

[splutters coffee over keyboard]

I used to know one of the above and all I can say is that you have used a very poor example.

The other example is Joyce Wethered which is even more laughable. How many dollars did she make playing her exhibition matches in the USA?
She also 'worked' in Lilleywhites as a golf advisor whilst retaining her shamateur status.

Doon the water, I still don't see the point you are making. Of course I'm aware of the R&A, I live in St.Andrews where they are based forchrisake.

So what if Golf has the R&A and the PGA, What has that got to do with anything? Administration becomes more localised in specific areas and you'll have the SGU and EGU, or indeed LGU
What exactly is your point about that caller?
Amateur Golf is not different from being an Amateur Footballer, Amateur Rugby Player or Amateur anything else.

Every sport has either one, or a number of governing bodies, e.g FA, UEFA, FIFA. So what,

Doon the Water wrote:george

[splutters coffee over keyboard]

I used to know one of the above and all I can say is that you have used a very poor example.

The other example is Joyce Wethered which is even more laughable. How many dollars did she make playing her exhibition matches in the USA?
She also 'worked' in Lilleywhites as a golf advisor whilst retaining her shamateur status.

I have no idea how much Joyce Wethered made from exhibition matches. On the basis that she was playing Bobby Jones as well as pros, not much I suspect.

If you want to earn money from being a pro, and win the monthly medal at your club, then that's a matter for you and your conscience.

Folk don't say amateur footballer or amateur rugby player any more they are just footballers or rugby players.

I have less problem with any amateurs making a living out of golf that would normally be considered professionalism (and I have no egregious experience of that) as I do with administrators in/from any number of sporting bodies who make a small fortune and have the acumen of total amateurs.

Probably some good examples in tennis and golf, and seemingly British football is teeming with them. Parasites the lot of 'em.

Of course they do, when you get a team in the early rounds of the FA Cup such as Havant and Waterloo they are always referred to as amateur or part - time, which amounts to much the same thing.
It's only a word anyway.

Just look in the local sport section of any local rag and you'll see loads of articles about that areas local amateur sportsmen who do each and every sport to a very high level, but not for a living.

More often it is not the sportsmen that are themselved referred to as Amateur, but the league, championship, tournament in which they play.
For example in the Derby and National meetings there are amateur races for jockeys, whilst in football, you'll get things like the Midlands Amateur League, whilst in the rules printed on athletic application forms for 10k's, half marathons and marathons it stipulates that everyone taking part must be of an amateur status (with the exception of the elite racers)

Still, I don't see your problem.

George it was quite a bit of money, it was a full tour involving around 50 matches.
The organisers payed her 'expenses' but it caused quite a stir as the expenses were over the top.
There was also quite a comotion about Roger and Joyce's golf instruction books.
Joyce also had her own range of golf equipment and was more or less forced to turn professional.
So not squeeky clean, as I said all a bit duck and dive and murky.

Nonsense.

Piddlesticks.

I had never really thought about this but there is some merit to the ideal of making the game one big game of all golfers. Obviously handicaps would remain so for the vast majority of players nothing would change.

My other sport is rugby and that has no delineation. There are players like me who have never got paid more than no match fees and a couple of beer vouchers to full pros. Players are registered to clubs so they tend to find a level that they can play at.

In golf to allow the current top amateurs still get top level competition and not be playing with seasoned pros you would probably have to make the competitions like the Amateur Open and U21 competition as you find in other sports.

The difficulty comes with things like winning that gives you a place at the Masters and The Open. I doubt that can stay. As for entering your local qualifier and getting in that doesn't change.

In essence we aren't far from an open system as the US collegiate system and things like the EGU provide the top amateurs with the equivalent of an academy system. I'm not sure that they would be interested in continuing with this is their players were going to disappear when a better tournament comes up. Where would these players get this type of training without this?

So basically I haven't got a clue! Good interesting debate.

I am not sure that i agree with the entire OP, but he has a pint, well made or not!!

At the top level of amateurs, which I think her refers, the guys are not really amatuers in teh strictest sense, they are basically full time golfers, who are paid - by some form or another to play golf.

Wolstenholme is a classic example, (for those who know little about top level amateur golf) who despite being an anmatuer, made a handsome living from golf, without ever having the intention of turning pro - there are countless others aswell.

I think there needs to be some stricter rules, and to make it black or white, whether you are AM or PRO.

Jd
Or, throw away the obsolete rules [from am and pro] and just have golfers.
I think we need less rules not more.
One area that all the critics to my thoughts have not mentioned is playing for money by amateurs in the form of gambling. Some of the 'players' at Sunningdale, RAC and Newmarket were earning enough to get on the bottom rung of the OOM.('')

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/golf/article4107900.ece

jd - read this...

Doesn't sound like someone making a 'handsome living' from amateur golf to me....

JD
How did he earn his money from 24 to 40 and play golf full time?

During that period he was gearing up for the Seniors Tour. Good to see him doing so well.

Rossa, if you chose to believe that article, that is up to you.

It fails to point out where the poor lads mother lived and would make you believe it was some sort of squaler, I assure you it wasn't and can also tell you he lived with his mother from choice, nothing else!

Gary Wolstenholme has been spoon fed from a young age and given plenty of financial backing whilst being an amatuer, from the EGU and bogus 'jobs' he allegedly was employed in.

He is not held in the greatest regard amongst his fellow AM's, which is evidenced when you here some of the stories from the Walker Cups he played in, bit of an outcast by all accounts!

He managed to spend night on 30 years as a top amatuer without actually having a job at all, this took him all ove the world, so unless he got it all free, someone has paid for that career! He is also an MBE by the way!

You should also question why, for someone at his level of amatuer golf, why he never turned pro?

i'd say he has done ok! http://www.garywolstenholme.com/

JD, I was going to make exactly the same point. If a change in the current system is primarily to benefit those very few that want to earn a living at golf whilst remaining as amateurs then why don't they just turn pro and make a load of money that way. If they are not good enough then they should get better or find another career...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/golf/3018502/Wolstenholme-wants-more.html

He another intesting Boobie bit...

Says he worked in insurance then got a job (I presume as some kind of club manager) at a golf club in Leicestershire. Seems fair enough to me, are we to suggest that mananging secretaries (or the like) are not allowed to be amateurs or is it just the ones who happen to be exceptional golfers?

I have no reason not to believe these articles, both are from respectable broadsheet newspapers and contain direct quotes from the man himself...

So your heresay above doesn't really cut i'm afraid unless you have some decent evidence to back up you assertions (especially regarding his popularity with fellow golfers).

As to why he didn't turn pro - maybe he just wasn't good enough to complete, he came to the game quite late it appears, maybe he just missed the boat. Notoriously short, it seems he was sensible enough to realise he couldn't complete until he could play against seniors?

There a quite few Amateur Championship winners in the last 20 years who don't appear to have made it as pros....

What about Bonallack and McEvoy? Both very successful Ams you never turned pro but made a living off the game as administrators...

Bonallack went the traditional route but McEvoy had a few strange golf business ventures.

I'm not sure how the top amateurs are held back by their status though? If they're not good enough to step up to the tour then they're not good enough - status would not make a lot of difference.

GW in his early twenties practised every afternoon at leicestershire with a mate of mine who was also county standard.My chum was a printer who worked an early morning shift so he freed up time for golf.GW did nothing else to speak of.His 'job' in Bristol was apparently in insurance but again left plenty free time.At Kilworth springs he was given the title'club manager'by Roger Vicary the owner who freely admitted Gary was attached to his club.Had his own little office but wasnt seen in it very often.
He was in short a golf professional for many years but stayed within the rules of amatuer status.Good luck to him in many ways.
Interesting debate but Im with DTW it will come eventually

Some times you have to go backwards to go forwards.

From the 1920's to the 1970's the position of greenkeper/pro was not uncommon in the UK.
This worked well at 'unfashionable' and 9 hole golf courses.
Probably the most notable greenkeeper /pro was John Shade at Duddingston. John was a good guy and an excellent coach, his son Ronnie went on to be world champion amateur.
John was in no mans land as he was not a member of the PGA and he could not play as an amateur.

With so many clubs without a pro now the positions of Pro/manager and Pro/Greenkeeper seem obvious ones to combine.
Many greenkeepers are good golfers and have a sound knowledge of coaching.

At present the PGA and The R&A would be dead set against such roles but to me it makes a bit of sense.