Scottish Football, What's the point?

With the SPL unable to attract such "superstars" or rather deadbeats as Neil Danns and it looking increasingly unlikely that any Scottish team will ever qualify again for the first round proper of the Champions League, not to mention the deplorable skill levels and poor entertainment returns is there any point in this tinpot and frankly laughable league continuing?

Discuss.

The same reason the Champions League, World Cup, Serie A, Bundesligue, English Prem etc continue. Because fans love the sport. Just because some people expect football to look like it does at the top flight or on a playstation screen does not mean that the games that fall below world class standard are redundant. My pub teams going no place anywhere soon, should I quit when Messi doesn't compliment me on my play?

To suggest that Scottish Football has fallen below the "world class" level when it is not even British standard is a bit of a joke.
It was merely a question, however the standard of the league has always been lamentable, except in recent years it's plummeted down to a level similar to the Norwegian Tippeligean or the Danish Superliga, yet so many fans have unrealistic expectations of what their clubs should be capable of and at what level they should be competing.

The question is, when does our level of interest drop to a point when we just don't bother about Scottish Football anymore dsepite how you might feel about your club? I would imagine it's pretty close to that for a lot of people.
You can love a sport, but when it becomes a dog with fleas to watch it is probably time to divert our attention elsewhere to something where the entertainment and football on offer matches the ridiculously overpriced ticket prices.

I don't think I'd open the curtains to watch the SPL anymore, dismal, dreary, deplorable and downright disappointing football.

I wasn't suggesting anything, least of all that we were anything near world standard. But you can't expect a league as poorly funded as the SPL to deliver all the time. I watch other leagues but pay most attention to the SPL because I enjoy it. I can fully see how anyone outside of the old firm wouldn't find it as grabbing because, no harm intended, its pretty much a two horse race. But unless every club in the SPL gets a sugar daddy from Dubai I doubt it's going to see the sort of jump in standard that some would like. And even if it did I reckon that might spoil it for me. It's good to watch Scottish lads playing in Scotland, unlike with some EPL teams that seem to have only a few token Englishmen on the pitch or benchwarming. If the SPL could afford to bring in the greats from abroad at a massive level, what would happen to the Scottish national side? And before you say, yes I realise that there is only a certain amount of experience they can get from playing in the current SPL but at least their playing.

The point is because you can support your local team. I'll be the first to complain and moan when Aberdeen are playing awful but they are the side I have grown up supporting my whole life. My Granda supported them, my Dad supported them and now so do I.

The standard of football doesn't concern me as there has never been a point in Scottish Football bar the 80' and early 90's that the football was outstanding. It's just the ridiculous expectations of Scottish fans these days. They look down the road at England and how much money their clubs are getting and think they should have the same. But like TipToes said, the only clubs with money in the league are Celtic and Ranger with most recently Hearts coming into the fold because they have Mr Romanov upstairs.

You speak about how we are on par with Danish and Norwegian football but you don't hear them complaining?

No matter what level the football is, I'll always support Aberdeen and enjoy the Scottish Leagues as it is a part of my life.

I think that the Old Firm are firmly to blame for the poor standard of Scottish Football, they are always going to be at the top of the tinpot league, something which is rather a bizarre claim by Rangers who seem overly proud of winning a league so many times, but they denude the ability for other clubs to compete by asset stripping the other teams best players just to have them warm the bench. Then on the other hand they turn round and say that they no longer want to play in the SPL because it isn't competitive enough for them. Well they can't have it both ways can they?
I'd like to see a gentleman's agreement that SPL clubs don't buy or sell players to/from each other meaning that players have to be developed or brought in from elsewhere. That way I'm sure we'd see the quality improve a bit, and give the Weedgies a better run for their money.

I don't think you hear Norway or Denmark complain because they've never been very good, whereas the SPL used to be at the very least "half decent" rather than the now largely dismal SPL, plus I doubt many of us read the Scandinavian media enough to know how they think about their leagues.

super_realist wrote:With the SPL unable to attract such "superstars" or rather deadbeats as Neil Danns and it looking increasingly unlikely that any Scottish team will ever qualify again for the first round proper of the Champions League, not to mention the deplorable skill levels and poor entertainment returns is there any point in this tinpot and frankly laughable league continuing?

Discuss.

Quite a pessimistic view you have there!
Although I have despaired myself in recent times, I wouldn't go anywhere near as far to say we should just give up and discontinue.
There's lots of contributing factors to our game's decline and although people, experts & punters alike, have been saying for a LONG time that we needed to address the problems, nothing seems to have been done until recently. Is the first performance director recently appointed by the SFA just a token gesture to make it look like Henry McLeish's report is being taken seriously?

Let's hope not and that are brighter times ahead...

There’s a sweeping generalisation, Rangers fans want to go to England. Where on earth did you get that from? Just because fans reckon we could make it down south (at this moment we can't but with the funding the EPL provides blah blah that’s not the issue) does not mean that we want to. I'm a Rangers fan, I don't want to head down south, nobody I've ever discussed the issue with wants to and infact the only people I've ever heard in favour of the idea where sitting at a bus stop drinking cider and talking about a "mental peeerty". So no, no sensible Rangers fan has ever shown any interest in going down south. Nor have I heard anyone moaning about the quality of the league. And saying its the Old Firms fault the league is poor can I remind you that the 1970s and 80s where dominated by Liverpool in the EPL but Man U and Chelsea worked to pull that back. You can't blame other teams for your poor performance, teams are responsible for that. And if you don’t get behind your team your only ever going to pick out the bad bits to talk about and not the best. The SPL is the same as any league, peaks and dips mate. Although thats an interesting point about the gentlemans agreement. Just out of interest would that include not buying from the lower divisions aswell? If thats the case its a very poor deal for the players. But yes, I can agree with some sort of system like that

More dips than peaks I would suggest.

User, it's a legitimate question isn't it?

The quality of the games and standard of the teams in the SPL is getting worse and worse, where is the tipping point?

How much longer can it go on for before people realise that the quality of the product diminishes further to a level where they lose interest in it.
It's at it's lowest ebb ever, just how much further can it go?

If you dont like, dont watch, simple.

6th form argument User, I've posed a question, I'd prefer a constructive answer rather than simply "If you don't like, don't watch"
Thing is, If I and everyone else who thinks the SPL has been stinking the place out in recent years and is on a serious downward spiral, then it wouldn't be long before there wasn't an SPL.

You have been given plenty of constructive replies, which I think if quite an achievement considering how weirdly biased your first post was.

I don't think many claim football is about watching the best teams, the best players, the best football, it's about the thrill of following your team through highs and lows, it's feeling the drama of a game, whether it's played to the highest standard of football or not.

Why wouldn't Rangers celebrate the fact that they have won the league so many times, it is a good achievement, in fact it's the BEST achievement they can do on a national level. Not many Rangers fans have said they want to move into the English league system, in fact I think it is the rest of the Scottish league that claim this, so there is no hypocrisy there.

Out of interest, who do you support super_realist?

I'm not saying people should stop supporting their teams, but the SPL used to have a reasonable amount of quality to it, never very much to be fair but enough to do moderately well in Europe and gain some credible results. Given that those "dizzy" heights are unlikely to ever be reached again and SPL clubs are likely to be pushovers if not laughing stocks in Europe, can SPL clubs continue to charge the same or inflation adjusted prices for a visually poorer product by exploiting blind club loyalty?
Surely there is a time when fans get tired of paying hundreds of pounds every year to see football of a quality so far removed from what they are used to seeing only a few years ago that there has to be a danger of people falling out of love with the game as a spectavle and subsequently their team. Or are people just happy to follow their team regardless of the humdrum dross served up in a "I support xxxxx for my sins kind of way"
. I know that's the de facto position of a football fan to support through thick and thin, but given Scottish football appears to be on a steady but not yet terminal decline, just how much of the ever more frequent thin bordering on anorexic will fans take before they decide that spending their money elsewhere (i.e something other than football) might get them better value for money.

If the teams are playing so bad, surley that makes a fan even more pleased when we do get a good performance?

Diminishing returns though, you may love your club, but how much reeking football can you watch before you subconsciously lose interest and divert your attention somewhere else?


If I want to watch terrible, skilless football I can just go down and watch Amateurs at the local pitch for free, rather than forkout to watch deadbeats mascarading as professional sportsmen.

It is no different to any other league,

The quality isnt great, but like the leagues in GErmany, England, Spain, Italy etc, there are basically only two teams who are going to win the league.

So the Premier League, despite Sky dressing it up as the best league in the world, isn't any better, Stoke are never going to win the league, neither are 75% of the whole division, which is pretty much how it is in Scotland

JD, at least you can tune in and watch a decent match with quality players, you can't do that in the SPL.
It is isn't the fact that the SPL is a coin toss every year, it's that the standard of football is so poor. The skill, tactics, control and vision on offer is pretty laughable and the question I am asking is why Scottish fans are so happy to put up with it, blind faith and club loyalty can only stretch so far.
Yes, the likes of Stoke and Fulham are drab but the entire SPL falls into that category.

super_realist wrote:JD, at least you can tune in and watch a decent match with quality players, you can't do that in the SPL.
It is isn't the fact that the SPL is a coin toss every year, it's that the standard of football is so poor. The skill, tactics, control and vision on offer is pretty laughable and the question I am asking is why Scottish fans are so happy to put up with it, blind faith and club loyalty can only stretch so far.
Yes, the likes of Stoke and Fulham are drab but the entire SPL falls into that category.

What a load of rubbish. So you're telling me there is absolutely no quality in the SPL? The reason that Celtic and Rangers run away with the league is because the teams below them can all beat each other. There were a number of games last season that were brilliant to watch, Kilmarnock 2-3 Rangers, Aberdeen 2-3 Rangers, Aberdeen 4-2 Hibernian, Rangers 0-3 Hibernian. Doesn't seem too dire does it?

AberdeenSteve wrote:

super_realist wrote:JD, at least you can tune in and watch a decent match with quality players, you can't do that in the SPL.
It is isn't the fact that the SPL is a coin toss every year, it's that the standard of football is so poor. The skill, tactics, control and vision on offer is pretty laughable and the question I am asking is why Scottish fans are so happy to put up with it, blind faith and club loyalty can only stretch so far.
Yes, the likes of Stoke and Fulham are drab but the entire SPL falls into that category.

What a load of rubbish. So you're telling me there is absolutely no quality in the SPL? The reason that Celtic and Rangers run away with the league is because the teams below them can all beat each other. There were a number of games last season that were brilliant to watch, Kilmarnock 2-3 Rangers, Aberdeen 2-3 Rangers, Aberdeen 4-2 Hibernian, Rangers 0-3 Hibernian. Doesn't seem too dire does it?

Oh well I suppose that saves the SPL from ridicule. They had 4 decent matches out of 450!!!

The only games worth watching are the Old Firm games and even those games are poor.

That was just a general sweep. There were plenty of games last season that were enjoyable to watch. Aberdeen 4-0 Hamilton, Motherwell 2-3 Hibernian. I could continue to list them..

People attack the SPL because of the standard it is but is there 450 enjoyable games in the Premier League? I don't think so..

Enjoyable to watch doesn't mean that it is of a good quality or that there is much skill on offer.

The stock of the SPL is getting to a level similar to the Welsh league they they now have to pre qualify for every European competition, I'm surprised everyone seems happy that the standard of the league has fallen so far that UEFA rank the league so low.

super_realist wrote:Enjoyable to watch doesn't mean that it is of a good quality or that there is much skill on offer.

The stock of the SPL is getting to a level similar to the Welsh league they they now have to pre qualify for every European competition, I'm surprised everyone seems happy that the standard of the league has fallen so far that UEFA rank the league so low.

How can something of bad quality be enjoyable to watch?
Like I mentioned early, out of interest .. who do you support?

A few stats from the 2010-11 Premier League.

2.80 There were 2.80 goals per game on average this season; the highest ratio in Premier League history

4 Blackburn would have finished fourth if only first halves counted in 2010-11

17 There were 17 hat-tricks scored in the Premier League this season; beating the previous record set in a 20-team season back in both 1995-96 and 1997-98

1968 The last English top-flight season to see a higher goals-per-game rate than 2010-11 (2.80) was 1967-68 (3.03)

Why are we even comparing the PL and the SPL?
They are miles apart and I know that.

The reason I'm comparing the SPL and Premier League is because you said "is there 450 enjoyable games in the Premier League? I don't think so". So I've got a list of game from this past season

Arsenal 2-3 West Brom
Arsenal 2-3 Spurs
Aston Villa 2-4 Arsenal
Blackburn 3-1 Liverpool
Blackpool 2-3 Man City
Blackpool 2-3 Man Utd
Bolton 3-2 Aston Villa
Bolton 4-2 Spurs
Chelsea 3-3 Villa
Everton 5-3 Blackpool
Fulham 3-2 Blackburn
Fulham 2-5 Liverpool
Man City 4-3 Wolves
Man Utd 3-2 Liverpool
Newcastle 4-4 Arsenal
Stoke 3-2 Birmingham
Stoke 3-2 Sunderland
Sunderland 4-2 West Brom
Spurs 3-3 Arsenal
Spurs 4-2 Blackburn
Spurs 3-2 Stoke
Wigan 4-3 Blackburn

AberdeenSteve wrote:

super_realist wrote:Enjoyable to watch doesn't mean that it is of a good quality or that there is much skill on offer.

The stock of the SPL is getting to a level similar to the Welsh league they they now have to pre qualify for every European competition, I'm surprised everyone seems happy that the standard of the league has fallen so far that UEFA rank the league so low.

How can something of bad quality be enjoyable to watch?
Like I mentioned early, out of interest .. who do you support?

Of course it can be, often when a defence is playing badly you'll get a raft of goals, that can be entertaining without being high quality.
It's irrelevant who I support, as there isn't a team in the SPL who could survive anywhere but the SPL.

And I could write a list that long of Scottish games too. My point was that not all games in all leagues are going to be footballing spectacles.

Scotland isn't going to be one of the super powers in the footballing world because one thing and one thing only, money. We can't compare with hardly any leagues on that front and that is the reason we're in such decline. Do I care? No.

I don't think there is much mileage in comparing the two leagues, there is tangible quality difference coming down to one thing -- money. The PL have huge TV rights deals and so the advantage we have over the SPL is that every PL club can outspend them and get the best players. They can't, but it doesn't mean the league isnit enjoyable.

It depends how you define enjoyable I suppose. I love football, and I love watching any level of football -- including my local non-league team. Do I go down and heckle them each week for not being Lionel Messi? No, I sit, watch and enjoy a competitive game of football.

It seems like your advocating that the SPL pack up and go home, because the quality isn't as high as the PL...well why don't we just drop all the lower leagues in England too while we're at it? They pay money to watch each week and the football isn't at such a high level so fans must be getting ripped off...

Stats oooh my very favourite. Look, fair play you guys don't enjoy the SPL and I do. We can argue with each other till we are blue in the face but neither of us are going to change any time soon. At least Aberdeensteve and I have conceded on some points and admitted that there are problems with the SPL. If you really can't find anything positive about the SPL what so ever then it really is time for you to just give up on it. If you watch a match with that attitude everytime then your really only going to reach the same conclusion every game.

I would also like to know who you follow, I dunno why but I'm getting an Everton vibe from you. Either that or Killie or Motherwell

super_realist, of course it is relevant who you support because if you follow St Midden I can understand your gripe

I am glad sodhat wadded in with his point as he is a fan of a PL side but made fair points about the lower leagues in England where the SPL would probably compare with. If the SPL is so poor and should be abolished surely so should the lower Football League teams?

TipToes also makes a fair point that if you go into every game with the attitude it's going to be rubbish then you'll see what you're watching as being rubbish. We both know that Scottish football is in decline but we continue to passionately support our teams. Even though we might not see eye to eye on match day

I'm a United fan Steve,

That really isn't the issue though, because although we've had a good couple of seasons the question is not how well your team is doing but how long we can go on supporting our teams when the quality of the product is reducing every year.

The point about English football is fair, but the difference is that those are lower leagues and so you'd expect the quality to reflect that.
The SPL is supposed to be the best our country has, yet the standard is consistently awful (even if it can at times be entertaining)

As a player, you'd have to have zero ambition to stay in this league. When the likes of Goodwillie leave, I hope he goes somewhere like Cardiff where he has a chance of playing with better players rather than stagnate at a club like Rangers who are going nowhere except backwards.

SR

i watched some absolutely awful premier League games last season, most of them on my Regular 'mad monday' jaunt to the pub.

Teams like Sunderland, Stoke Blackburn, Liverpool, Stoke, Newcastle, Stoke and Stoke are truely dreadful to watch!

So the Premier League aint all it is cracked up to be, and judging by your generalisation, I doubt you watched any SPL games last season, if you had, you would know there were some cracking matches shown live!

JD, I'm sure there were some cracking games, but that doesn't mean the quality was good. The standard of passing, shooting, vision, spontaneity is well below what you'd expect of so called professional footballers. I agree the PL is over-rated and teams like Liverpool stink the place out but the SPL is of such a low standard that sometimes you think you could do better and put in more effort yourself. You shouldn't be able to do that in professional sport.

Entertainment is a very subjective thing though. For example, I think a lot of the time Barcelona can be incredibly boring to watch, but other people will say they play the best football, and that's what they want to see.

I'd rather see a game full of goals, with bad defending, dreadful mistakes and big misses than a five-nil drubbing of Blackburn by United.

I'm from Scotland myself and was a big soccer/football fan in the 90's (not so much now but still take an interest). Even then I wasn't particularly interested in the SPL as the quality was garbage compared with the likes of the English league (I'm a Liverpool man btw), apart from OF games the crowds and atmosphere was poor also, and today I think its even worse. I'm not going to have a go at people who like the SPL, whatever floats your boat I suppose, but what I don't get is a certain section of Scottish fans who pop-up every now and then and talk about it as the greatest thing since sliced bread- we have only an excuse for a reason!

We don't have a great league, never did have imo, and we never will. But I think we could improve it greatly in terms of entertainment, we need a more equal sharing out of the TV money amongst the top flight clubs to try at least to reduce old firm dominance and maybe then fans will support their local team rather than the old firm. I'd actually be happier if they used the SPL as a farm system to create better homegrown talent for the national side rather than try to compete with the big guns in Europe. For success in football I think Scotland should shift the focus away from clubs and toward the national team with the SPL, not trying to be a great league quality wise but to become a breeding ground for great players for the national side while being a more competitive and entertaining league than it is now. Can't see it happening though, turkey's don't vote for Christmas.

super_realist wrote:I'm a United fan Steve,

That really isn't the issue though, because although we've had a good couple of seasons the question is not how well your team is doing but how long we can go on supporting our teams when the quality of the product is reducing every year.

The point about English football is fair, but the difference is that those are lower leagues and so you'd expect the quality to reflect that.
The SPL is supposed to be the best our country has, yet the standard is consistently awful (even if it can at times be entertaining)

As a player, you'd have to have zero ambition to stay in this league. When the likes of Goodwillie leave, I hope he goes somewhere like Cardiff where he has a chance of playing with better players rather than stagnate at a club like Rangers who are going nowhere except backwards.

I think it comes back to money though, and the fact that they don't generate much more than the teams in the second tier of the English structures -- that's including TV money, attendances, sponsorships and player sales etc. If the money was pouring in the quality would inevitably increase.

But that to me doesn't correlate to entertainment as it's too subjective. I agree with Leak too, I thought Spain won the WC with a very boring style and I much preferred Germany's. But they were hailed by most as footballing gods playing the best stuff...

Isn't it due to the fact that the quality is so poor that the money doesn't come in. It's a self fulfilling prophesy.

Exactly sodhat, I thought the most entertaining sides in the world cup were Germany and Argentina, they had their flaws, particuarly Argentina who played with such an attacking formation they were weak at the back, but that's why it was entertaining.

A team that played perfect football for me wouldn't be that entertaining, faults are just as entertaining as quality for me.

Well you'll find plenty of those in the SPL Leak unfortunately you rarely see a moment of brilliance which can change a dreary game into something memorable.

super_realist wrote:Isn't it due to the fact that the quality is so poor that the money doesn't come in. It's a self fulfilling prophesy.

I think so, and the only way out of it is for investment to come in from somewhere and for it to be shared equally between the league.

Perceived poor quality and lack of star names seems to turn off the less hardcore fans, which means less TV viewers and less people paying to come in and see. Somehow the trend needs to be reversed, and people need to be engaged in the league and sport. It could even be triggered by Scotland performing at international level, just something has to click!

I don't think that it is pointless having the SPL as you insinuate though -- lots of people are passionate about their clubs and for whatever faults it may have, it does host one of the worlds greatest sporting rivalries too.

super_realist wrote:Well you'll find plenty of those in the SPL Leak unfortunately you rarely see a moment of brilliance which can change a dreary game into something memorable.

Those moments are supposed to be rare, that's what makes them memorable.

Probably right Sod, it requires a huge overhaul or it will die.

super_realist wrote:Probably right Sod, it requires a huge overhaul or it will die.

It's not going to "die". I think it's ridiculous to even suggest that. It might not grow, but there is clearly enough support in the league for it to continue.

Perhaps, but how long before it's on a par with the Welsh or Irish leagues? ANd it could also very well die given the amount of debt teams are in, combine that with vanishing interest and falling revenues and you have a big problem looming.

As for rare moments, yes that's what's makes them special, but you only have to look at the "goals" of the season to see they are too few and far between.

And are the Welsh and Irish leagues still running....yes they are. You just proved it won't die.

Football isn't just about playing the best football, or these amazing goals. It's about following a team, it's about cheering for a goal, or bemoaning a mistake, it's about banter between fans, escaping relegation, fighting for the league.

Yes, they are still running, but do we really want our league to fall to such part time depths.

It's very unlikely to, in fact, you're the first person I have ever heard suggest it.

Football as a whole, probably starting with the EPL is probably gonna die.

Players cannot continue to command such high wages, and teh clubs cannot rely purely on TV money.

At present most clubs, apart from the likes of Man U, Citeh and Arsenal, couldn't care less if no one came to watch, such is the huge amount of TV money they receive.

On Chairman said a few years ago, that it was irrelevant how many fans atteneded due to teh vast riches offered by SKY TV - he didnt reduce teh gate prices though!

Its just waiting to go pop, and it will be the EPL that
dies first!