Henry Cooper

Just how good was Henry Cooper, I'm only a teenager and have been brought up being told about the Henry Cooper legend however how good was he actually or do we just look at him through rose tinted specticles?

I'm going to do something I normally don't, which is simply to reproduce something I've already written in answer to your post. I mean no discourtesy by this, but yesterday, a similar sort of question began to be debated, and I think that my thoughts are adequately summarised by what follows.

I should also say that I am possibly terminally cantankerous on the subject, and might feel a good deal more kindly towards Cooper the boxer if he'd ever been able to give his opponents their due, rather than making excuses about "the sun being in his eyes" (Johansson loss) a split glove giving Ali an extra minute of rest (rather than the actual six seconds), or that he was robbed by a combination of Bugner and Gibbs, when the fight was close for most of the way.

Anyhow:

"Think that Cooper gets a ridiculously easy pass from a lot of people. By comparison with Bugner, who fought men of the calibre of Frazier (one of the gutsiest performances ever from a British boxer, IMO), Shavers and Lyle, Cooper's record is something of a half-baked one. He openly admitted that he wouldn't get into the ring with Liston or Frazier under any circumstances and turned down a world title shot at Patterson, which went to London instead.

Don't think that Cooper was an especially "quality heavy", either, certainly not in world terms. Contemptuously swatted by Johansson and Patterson, twice beaten by Erskine....Henry's record is as full of holes as a colander. His fame rests almost entirely on ruling Britain for eleven uninterrupted years, or whatever it was, and knocking Ali onto his wallet. Poor old Sonny Banks, who also decked The Greatest, but is scarcely remembered at all these days; a pity that he wasn't born British, he could have made a fortune.

A great, legendary bubble has somehow built up around Henry's career as a boxer. Whatever his fine qualities as a man, I think that it's a bubble that needs popping."

I don't think there's any doubt that Cooper was a good fighter, but certainly not a 'great' one in the proper sense of the word. No shame in that, of course, but his popularity and public profile obviously mean that, at times, he's been revered more than his talents and achievements merit.

Some have claimed that had he been born in just about any other era, he'd have been a world champion. I'm not so sure (though I suppose in a division as lacking in quality as Cruiserweight, it would have been possible at some stage). At Heavyweight, his vulnerable eyebrows, almost total reliance on the left hook (he stated that his right was "only for wiping away the sweat") and lack of an inside game mean that he'd probably be cut to shreds against the top, top dogs of any generation.

His whole appeal in the eyes of many Brits is the fact that he floored Ali - I think the cases of Sonny Banks and Chuck Wepner are proof enough that this doesn't necessarily equate to being a great fighter.

I still think he beat Bugner in his final fight, mind you - but that's a whole different story!

His career record suggests he's a British great......

How many Brits won world titles in them days??????????..

So what if he lost to a few world heavy champs...Took 100 years from Fitz to win a heavy title over here!!!

Fighting for one was an achievement back then.......

It's alright for Farr to be a hero for getting his butt spanked off Louis but let's slag off Henry for decking the greatest heavy of alltime and giving him a good fight...despite being basically a cruiserweight..

Respect the Captain but think he's harsh on this guy...

Sounds like a Brit hero to me..

Farr also beat men like Tommy Loughran, Bob Olin, Max Baer, Ben Foord and Walter Neusel, Truss, which is form a country mile ahead of anything Cooper achieved. Cooper's best win was against Zora Folley, a loss that Folley later avenged. And no, it wasn't quite that much of an "achievement to fight for a world title" in Cooper's day, since Rademacher, for example, got a shot in his first pro fight and the terminally hopeless Brian London was granted two shots at the crown seven years apart.

Don't think Cooper is even a Brit great. On my generous days, he scrapes into our top 50 pound for pound fighters; he's outside the top 5 British heavyweights for me as well. Farr was basically a cruiserweight too, and he'd have stood a better chance of winning a title at that weight than Cooper, who would still have had to beat Patterson or Johansson, each of whom weighed about the same as he did. I don't see that Cooper's two fights against Ali, which, between them, lasted about a quarter of an hour less than Farr's brave but limited attempt on Louis's crown, can be viewed as superior to the Welshman's efforts.

Henry may be a Brit hero, but he's categorically not a great.

Shouldn't think he beat any of them guys at their peak Captain...

Baer lost his bottle against Louis and was battered in four and then lost a decision to someone called Willie Davies before Farr......

All apples and pears I should think Cooper's career at domestic and European level and his longevity there outweighs Farr's...

But respect to Farr I think maybe he's a British great.......

Think you're too harsh on Cooper...After all Fitzsimmons to the next Brit was 100 years approx..

I've offered the opinion, many times, that Cooper's popularity in Britain bears no relation to his prowess as a fighter.

In addition to his mishaps against Patterson and Johansson, as mentioned by captaincarrantuohil, we should also remember that he systematically avoided defending his Commonwealth title against Chuvalo for many a year, ducked out of a title challenge against Patterson - Brian London went in his place - and openly declared that he would have no part of Sonny Liston, whom he deemed ' too nasty.'

A domestic heavyweight great, and a worthy European, but some way short of world class.

RIP HENRY...obviously...

All I'm trying to do is set things in some sort of context. It's hardly as though Cooper has been under-praised over the years for his achievements. Cooper was not the best British heavyweight between the age of Fitzsimmons and the age of Lennox Lewis, far less the best British boxer.

terminally cantankerous on the subject......and then.......setting things into some kind of context..

Maybe you guys are right about him.......

But I get the feeling you resent his popularity somewhat and maybe like myself towards guys l don't like... ie Duran it clouds the judgement a little....

Certainly a British fighter I'd heard of before I came here and I hadn't heard of many..

I certainly resent his popularity as compared with Bugner's. Joe got nothing but scorn and derision for years in this country, a situation engineered in large part by Cooper's thoroughly juvenile reaction to his loss to the younger man. When I think of Bugner giving Frazier ten rounds of hell and then of Cooper being bounced up and down the ring by Patterson or being taken out with one punch by Johansson and blaming the sun in his eyes, yes, guilty as charged, I feel the need for a little justice.

Being cantankerous about the guy doesn't deprive me of the ability to re-adjust the record a little in a case where it's clearly deserved. You'd probably heard of "Fainting" Phil Scott before you came here, the British heavyweight champ who kept being KO'd by Americans and claiming fouls afterwards; the fact that you'd heard of him means damn all about how good he was.

I can understand a stinker like Bugner being scorned......I mean he couldn't even have a go at an aging Ali in 76/77 or whenever....

A guy who stunk as bad as Greg the flea Richardson.....

Your views on Cooper are more than valid mate......

Just thought he represented your island pretty well....that's all.

75, and you're right it was a stinker, just a training session for Ali pre the Thrilla in Manila. However, Bugner had fought Ali very well first time round - God knows that he was a capable fighter when he put his mind to it.

Can I ask you this question Captain.....I heard when Frazier beat Bugner..Harry Gibbs had the fight ludicrously close....Was it??

The more I hear about this Gibbs guy the more I think he was like Our beloved Joey Curtis...

Or maybe I'm doing him an injustice..

It was a close fight, Truss - Frazier's late knock-down was very necessary for him to underline his win. He was the better man in general, as you would expect, but the fight was never less than competitive.

Gibbs was alright; always seemed to enjoy the authority, but he was a pretty good ref. Always liked John Coyle and Larry O'Connell, myself, but any of them were better than the dreadful Roland Dakin, who came up with that memorable scorecard for Minter-Antuofermo I.

popped on here expecting lots of pro henry comments, only to find the opposite... have to add my weight to them i'm afraid.

He came out on top of the competitive, if nothing special, british heavyweight scene of the late 50's/early 60's. His record is a little better than it looks due to the cuts losses, but as has been ably pointed out, still only decent european level at best.

However his undying popularity with the press and the public at large with this cor blimey, salt of the earth, splash it all over stuff never really cut it with me. Always an excuse for the defeats, never missed an opportunity to insinuate he could have beaten ali were it not for cuts, refusing to speak to a ref for years because he didn;t like a close decision...

...but despite this, everyone thought he was a great guy. I didn't know him so can't comment on what he was truly like when not discussing his fights, my view is just a perspective but I suspect his popularity is in large part down the the ali knockdown controversy and the british press' love of a hard luck story. As the captain points out, the contrast with bugner, who was basically hounded out of the country by our vitriolic press for having the audacity to beat saint henry is quite striking.

i think the way bugner was/is treated by press was and is a disgrace