New Zealanders cheat.....

by Adam D Wed Jul 06, 2011 7:56 am

First topic message reminder :

Well according to former Wallabies coach Bob Dwyer they do!

As the Crusaders prepare for Saturday’s Super 15 final, former Wallabies coach Bob Dwyer has labelled some of their key players “serial infringers” of the laws of the game.

The World Cup-winning coach singled out Richie McCaw, Kieran Read, Owen Franks and Hurricane Conrad Smith for special mention.

Dwyer praised the Crusaders, per se, for making it to Saturday’s Super 15 final against the Reds in Brisbane.

“Their technique is beyond reproach which is what makes them the great side they are.”

But he slammed certain players, particularly All Black captain McCaw.

“You only have to watch what Richie does in a match. He would be guilty six times of obstruction in every game. He knocks players away from the ruck so his players can get in first to the ball. They are very good at it.

“For a variety of offences, players like Kieran Read, Owen Franks, Wayne Crockett and Conrad Smith [of the Hurricanes] are all serial infringers. The amount of infringements New Zealand props get away with is incredible.”

Dwyer also took a stab at New Zealand referees.

“Believe me, playing in New Zealand with New Zealand referees is the world’s most difficult task.”

He took New Zealand international referee Bryce Lawrence to task for his handling of the Crusaders-Sharks playoff match in Nelson a fortnight ago.

“In that Crusaders v Sharks game, Brad Thorn arrived at the tackle situation with about six players already involved there. He completely by-passed that and took out a defender one and a half metres behind the tackle area. I just ask, how do New Zealanders get away with these things?

NZ REFEREES

“The answer is, they do so because all New Zealand referees are bred on a diet of mayhem at the tackle contest and they commit mayhem in numbers which confuses referees. The trouble is, none of the other countries grow up on that diet because they are not allowed to play that way.

“It’s not part of their DNA; they don’t think they can get away with it so they don’t employ those tactics. But New Zealand refs let players do that, certainly New Zealand players.

“I think we have to keep criticising the New Zealanders and making people aware of what are illegal tactics. The law book clearly states you are not allowed to do what they do constantly.”

RINGING ENDORSEMENT

Nevertheless, Dwyer offered a ringing endorsement of the rugby played and the players’ skills this season.

“The standard of the rugby across all three countries has been fantastic, the best yet,” said the Australian, now 70. “The standout is the wear and tear on the players. But the bottom team has been able to challenge the top team and although not necessarily beat them, give them a real contest.

“There has been a lot of enterprise. That by itself might not be all that fantastic; you need a few other things, like ability for one. But you also need accurate technique and we have seen that in many teams.

“Even a new team like the Melbourne Rebels, who might have been expected to struggle, have had their moments.

“Injuries have been the biggest problem for Super 15 teams. The Waratahs had 11 of their 22 squad players missing through injury for their playoff match against the Crusaders. Eight or nine of them were Wallabies and it’s hard to make up for that sort of loss.”

source - http://www.ruggaworld.com/2011/07/05/mccaw-is-a-serial-infringer/

So do you agree?

by **Pal Joey** Sat Jul 09, 2011 12:56 pm

I thought Lawrence and Richie did a fairly good job tonight.

Ok, a few iffy ones when there was chaos at the breakdown but otherwise it was pretty well controlled.

by Hood83 Sat Jul 09, 2011 9:17 pm

TheGreyGhost wrote:
Hood83 wrote:It's all good natured. The best thing about the Aussies is they can take as good as they give

----------------------------------------------------

Absolutely right GG, sorry, meant to be said with a wink. One thing i'll also say - in England there's been a myth about Aussies being poor losers - it's rubbish, and i think a lot of us realised that after the last Ashes. Zero excuses and compliments paid.

Same old same old though isn't it, idiotic journos trying to be inflammatory.

It's true. Aussies like to have a crow when they're winning, and fair dues it does happen a lot (maybe historically more than now)...how much did that Fifa WC hurt? Watching the Kiwis go toe to toe with Italy, effectively knocking them out whilst the Wallabaroos (or whatever) were being humbled by the Germans? It was just goal after goal after goal) but in defeat Aussies tend to turn on their own team with exactly the same kind of humourous mockery. I recall the Aussie TV shows after the first Lions test back in 2001, it was classic stuff.

I sometimes wonder how much the culture of enjoying sport to the extend of being able to laugh at yourself in defeat contributes to success. NZ for example, get a bit dark and reflective in defeat. The English go into denial, so much that as GH has said, an English team is never more dangerous than after they've pulled of a victory and been "let out of their introspective cage"

You could be talking about England re the Germany game, Christ they schooled us.

You could be right on GH's quote, but to be honest i see it as the opposite. The only time we're dangerous is after a poor game when we're written off. Our press don't do humorous mockery, they do aggressive vitriol (NOTW anyone, ha, good riddance), which is a shame. We put a lot of truck in 'never giving up' and being 'fighters' but anyone who has seen the English football team over the last 20 years at least knows we are incapable of handling the pressure of expectation. Certainly in major team sports. Soon as we're written off, we relax and improve. Somewhat

by Rob B Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:01 am

Taylorman wrote:"Believe me, playing in New Zealand with New Zealand referees is the world’s most difficult task"

I thought World peace was a little more difficult but fair enough Bob... and speaking of bob...Rob...

I'm not even a fan of Carters but I do recognise rubbish when I see it.

We'll just see what happens saturday when your pool topping, trophyless Reds come up against class.

Yes we did see and the pool topping trophyless Reds made class look a bit classless. Bryce certainly nearly came to imposing himself on the outcome, calling Simmons' intercept try under the posts a knock on and denying Reds 7 points - I understand errors are made but geez how bad was that call?. I feared that could have been a turning point with the Crusaders going up a notch, but fortunately the trophyless ones continued to impose themselves and found more tries. Their defense was also impeccable. Great individual try by DC was the highlight for them.

They deserved the win. It is great to have a different side come up to take the title.

They were and are the best team in Super Rugby for 2011. I hope more people will show them the respect they deserve in future.

by aucklandlaurie Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:41 am

Rob B
I am most interested in your comment that the referee made a bad call in calling Simmons intercept try a Knockon.
I'll tell you what i saw ... Simmons lost the ball forward,into Ellis s right shoulder.... it bounced back to Simmons ,who caught it and ran down the field...
Just out of interest can you tell me how that isnt a knock on.Please.

by blackcanelion Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:11 am

Rob I enjoyed watching the Reds. I think that like most refs he missed a few. It looked like a missed call to me, but I understand that a few people saw it rebounding off Ellis's shoulder, there were also calls by at least one english jouno for a penalty try )for offside) when thorne went over. Ironically, I don't think he was that bad. Better, I thought, than most of the refs in the November tests.

by boomeranga Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:14 am

aucklandlaurie wrote: Rob B
I am most interested in your comment that the referee made a bad call in calling Simmons intercept try a Knockon.
I'll tell you what i saw ... Simmons lost the ball forward,into Ellis s right shoulder.... it bounced back to Simmons ,who caught it and ran down the field...
Just out of interest can you tell me how that isnt a knock on.Please.

I thought it went back into Ellis, not forward.

by **Pal Joey** Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:18 am

I thought it went backwards to Ellis' shoulder, then bounced forward into Simmons' hands. It all happened so quickly and only one camera angle shows it that way...however one can't be 100% sure due to alignment of that camera.

Fair enough though, it was a close call but as you say there were a couple of other ones which went against the Crusaders as well. Evened up, imo.

by Rob B Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:58 pm

I didn't see Simmons lose the ball forward. It went backwards.

But anyway, not saying Bryce had a shocker but if that was the difference in the game then it would have been a real shame. There were a few that went against Crusaders but not sure they were 7 point calls. If you looked at Thorn's reaction when the TMO said held up, he didn't blink.

As for the English journo's view, well, what a crock. Haven't heard the penalty try theory try anywhere. The only error in that play was Thorn not passing the ball with a 3 on 1 situation.

Any thoughts about Thorn's trip of Cooper in the first half? Cost them 3 points but I would have thought that was an automatic yellow card for tripping? Maybe Bryce thought it was interference rather than tripping.

2 very even teams in one that went right down to the wire.

by **Pal Joey** Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:04 pm

That was definitely a deliberate trip by Thorn...lucky not to get a stint in the bin. It would have been a disappointing way to finish his career.

On a separate note, it was good of Thorn to say what he said at the end of his last game. Showed considerable respect for the Reds and said he'd given his all so he could not complain about the result.

by nganboy Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:50 am

Yeah Thorn's comments were good.
That trip was dumb
Ref was fine

by aucklandlaurie Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:07 am

Linebreaker and Rob B
I was interested to read you opinion as to why Simmons try should have been awarded and not ruled a knock on...
At all times Simmons was facing the Canterbury line, at all times Ellis was facing the Queensland line, at all times Aellis was between Simmons and the canterbury line. ball went from Simmons to Ellis to Simmons.
Referee was more in line with Simmons than the camera angle.....
Definitely a knock on...
At least it explains why you think New Zealanders cheat...............

by doctor_grey Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:45 am

To me, I look at the original article as gamesmanship by Bob Dwyer to gain an edge for Australia v. the All Blacks (or Reds v. Crusaders?). Sure those guys play are on the edge a bit. But I used to have a coach who said: "If it ain't called, it's rules". So, let's just play on.

You know, if you can show me a player who does not play at least a little on the edge, then I can show a player who isn't trying hard enough. Every successful player looks for an edge. It is highlighted more with the ABs since they are the world's number one team.

by aucklandlaurie Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:30 am

Doctor Grey
your not wrong,But I think what irritates me about Dwyer is that he uses dopey journos in an attempt to "get to " the referee, he has form for this if my memory serves me right...and that was immediatley prior to a major game..........
Personally as a New Zealander i dont have any issue with the common man in the street expressing his opinion about us cheating,as we dont usually talk to sports jounalists from major English newspapers,let alone get reported by them,.
But id have expected some professional dignity from mr Dwyer... the old Australian coach that I have utmost respect for is Alan Jones often maligned by some but the guy is a genius,and an utter professinnal and if he was to be bought into a debate like this ,it would be an open forum with right of reply........

by doctor_grey Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:47 am

I hear you mate, but I think a lot of coaches try to manipulate or at least influence referees through the media. Graham Henry does it. But so do many others. Remember the very public attempts by Clive Woodward and Eddie Jones, always looking for a edge on each other? The writers pick it up and ride it as long as possible since it is sensationalist and sells newspapers or internet space or whatever. And the writers most likely know they are being used (not all. some really are as dumb as a box of rocks). I suppose the difference is Dwyer hasn't been Wallaby coach for quite a while now. I do agree its annoying, but I think it is part of things and probably won't go away.

And by the way, I like Alan Jones, too. Good man, great record.

by Rob B Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:52 am

aucklandlaurie wrote: Linebreaker and Rob B

At least it explains why you think New Zealanders cheat...............

I have never said that they cheat, notwithstanding Franks' forearm to the jaw while a player was on the ground and also Thorn's blatant tripping incident. People can draw their own views about that.

by aucklandlaurie Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:00 am

Dr Grey
Too true, the situation with a current International coach is different,ot is part of his position that he has to face the media,hence why they have to attend live press conferences .
And by taking on that role they are open to scrutiny,and they are acting in the interests of their employer by preserving their employers position......
But when an ex coach egages in it to this extent in a unilateral interview with a journo,it is nothing more than covert sniping...

by doctor_grey Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:02 am

Couldn't agree more.

by aucklandlaurie Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:21 am

rob B
You can hardly say that you came out arguing the contrary to the question posed............
But what really caught my eye was when you said "Bryce (Lawrence) looked like he was wearing a Crusaders jersey".
Now that suggests to me that you had drawn some conclusion ,and it wasnt one of impartiality and sportsmanship........

by Rob B Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:13 am

The quote about Bryce was a different game - in fact quite a while back : Sharks v Crusaders. He had an absolute shocker that day and overwhelmingly the calls went Crusaders way and I am not on my lonesome on that one. I have said elsewhere I thought Bryce had a fair game on Saturday.

I repeat that I have never said that NZ teams cheat. I posed 2 incidents that happened on Saturday which one would not normally expect to see from NZ sides. They say a lot more about sportsmanship in my view. People can draw their own conclusions on those incidents.

by aucklandlaurie Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:25 am

rob B
Bryce Lawrence had much more than a fair game he had an excellant game,old Keith would have been proud......

by Rob B Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:33 am

I don't think he quite reached the heights of Keith....

by **Pal Joey** Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:21 am

[quote="Rob B"]

aucklandlaurie wrote: Linebreaker and Rob B

At least it explains why you think New Zealanders cheat...............

Me neither...

by boomeranga Mon Jul 11, 2011 12:11 pm

The reason Alan Jones is much maligned in Aust is that he is not always as trustworthy as he may appear. At least Crazy Bob was airing his own opinion, not the one he was paid to sell.

"The cash for comment affair was an Australian scandal that broke in 1999, concerning paid advertising in radio that is presented to the audience in such a way as to sound like editorial commentary. It is widely considered a breach of journalistic integrity. While the initial publicity had died down by the end of the year, it sparked major changes in the way the radio industry is conducted in Australia. This resulted in a second scandal in 2004, leading to the resignation of Australian Broadcasting Authority head David Flint, after he had been found to have been less than impartial in his role in "cash for comment" investigations.

In 1999, Media Watch reporters Richard Ackland, Deborah Richards and Ann Connelly revealed that 2UE talk radio hosts John Laws and Alan Jones had been paid to give favourable comment to companies including Qantas, Optus, Foxtel, Mirvac and major Australian banks, without disclosing this arrangement to listeners. Though both initially vehemently denied any wrongdoing, when the controversy gained sufficient momentum, they defended the practice by claiming that they were not employed as journalists, but as "entertainers" and thus had no duty of disclosure or of journalistic integrity. The Australian Broadcasting Authority estimated the value of these arrangements at $18 million and found Laws, Jones, and 2UE to have committed 90 breaches of the industry code and five breaches of 2UE's license conditions. Regulations were subsequently tightened to prevent such behaviour; however, the ABA has been accused of weakness and inconsistency in enforcing these regulations."

Source: The modern hero of journalistic integrity and the reason I'm about to graduate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cash_for_comment_affair

by **Pal Joey** Mon Jul 11, 2011 12:25 pm

I was about to educate laurie about AJ too but you've done a good job, boomer.

So much for the 'right of reply'.

"Alan Jones often maligned by some but the guy is a genius,and an utter professinnal and if he was to be bought into a debate like this ,it would be an open forum with right of reply........"

Please...spare us aucklandlaurie. You don't know where you're digging, mate! Poor example.

by english warrior Fri Jul 15, 2011 6:49 pm

New Zealanders NEVER cheat, why would they need to, with all those Refs awarding them advantage after advantage, and penalising the opposition for daring to challenge for the ball, so why bother, when officialdom is supine and complient to the boys in Black!

by Taylorman Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:04 pm

Good on you warrior.straight out of left field. Boom. Didnt see that coming Shocked

by TheGreyGhost Fri Jul 15, 2011 10:58 pm

Ah...the English getting their excuses in early again.

by blackcanelion Sat Jul 16, 2011 2:47 am

Just a couple of thoughts:

My understanding is that the finals refs were appointed following feedback from all super 15 coaches and that Bryce Lawrence was at, or near the top. I don't think he's perfect, but it would seem that he isn't to bad when compared with the other 16 professional coaches in the league.

The stats show that NZ have been penalised more than any other tri nations or 6 nations side in the last 12 months. There's a good arguement that they suffer from biased refereeing.

by **Pal Joey** Sat Jul 16, 2011 3:16 am

Or maybe they try to cheat more and get caught out quite a bit. Whistle

by Gibson Sat Jul 16, 2011 3:27 am

If cheating is doing it faster than the ref can see. Then yes. They cheat like phhok.

Why cant we? And the rest of the NH? Except France... obviously.

Because we are nowhere even near them. On paper.

Jennings would pish McCaw off his game, though. Like no other.

And Sexton is ripe to challenge Carter.

Believe.

by blackcanelion Sat Jul 16, 2011 3:43 am

All joking aside, I doubt it. There is no evidence to suggest that sides that have been coached by Kiwis (e.g. Australia, cats, sharks, leinster, force, clermont, northhamption, wasps, etc) are more penalised, or kiwi players playing for foriegn countries or clubs (e.g. Ieland, England, Australia, Liecester, harlequins, perpegnon, toulous, etc) are more penalised, or that foreign players return home from playing rugby in NZ (e.g. Martin Johnson).

by Gibson Sat Jul 16, 2011 3:58 am

blackcanelion wrote:All joking aside, I doubt it. There is no evidence to suggest that sides that have been coached by Kiwis (e.g. Australia, cats, sharks, leinster, force, clermont, northhamption, wasps, etc) are more penalised, or kiwi players playing for foriegn countries or clubs (e.g. Ieland, England, Australia, Liecester, harlequins, perpegnon, toulous, etc) are more penalised, or that foreign players return home from playing rugby in NZ (e.g. Martin Johnson).

Except for MJ. He was a bollix. But a World Class one and a marvellous Captain. Like McCaw.

by blackcanelion Sat Jul 16, 2011 4:02 am

Have to agree MJ is a legend.

by aucklandlaurie Sat Jul 16, 2011 6:37 am

i always remember Michael Jones hardly ever got penalised playing rugby for his club. provence,under 21s etc. but once he became an All Black he used to be forever getting penalised for being offside in the defensive line.
Only after it was pointed out to a number of referees that he actually was that fast,did the penalties stop.

by **Pal Joey** Sat Jul 16, 2011 6:45 am

Or maybe he adjusted his timing a little. You are either offside or you're not.

I wonder who pointed it out to the referees, laurie? I hardly think they would stop penalising him on someone's say-so.

by Taylorman Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:02 am

I remember that too Laurie. There was a period there when his timing and pace was so fast refs were pinging him because 'he must have been offside to get there that quickly, later admitting they were wrong' after seeing the replays.

I'd forgotten that one. Was across the rugby discussion for quite a while at the time.

Its one of many of those things that sticks with fans at the time why so many NZers opt for him as their all time fave player. Not a lot you could throw up on You tube so you had to be a part of the fabulous MJ career to appreciate the man.

Another at the time was when Harty opted for a crazy idea of putting two opens on each side in Mark Carter and Jones.

Between the two they cut down the Aus 10 and 12 so quickly all match with Jones usually taking out the 12 after Carters pressure on the 10.

And for those who knew the Jones career, 'cheating' was never mentioned in the same sentence.

by **Pal Joey** Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:13 am

He was one of the finest in the game - he took things to another level.

by aucklandlaurie Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:28 am

Linebreaker
If I remeber rightly it was other team mates (auckland) pointing it out that he was giving away more points at International level than at Domestic level with NZ referees (And nearly all his team mates were ABs as well) It broke when an International Referee said he had to be off side to get there that quickly.

by **Pal Joey** Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:44 am

aucklandlaurie wrote: Linebreaker
If I remeber rightly it was other team mates (auckland) pointing it out that he was giving away more points at International level than at Domestic level with NZ referees (And nearly all his team mates were ABs as well) It broke when an International Referee said he had to be off side to get there that quickly.

Ah OK, I vaguely remember a ref (irish/welsh?) saying something like that.

There was a similar thing in RL when the roosters were said to have "the greatest speed off the line" and always seemed to be tackling the player before the ball had even reached him from the dummy-half. Then the other clubs started practising 10-15m sprints to counteract and imitate the roosters methods. Within a short while the 'offensive-defence' style was born.

by aucklandlaurie Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:55 am

then theres the oposite scenario.
Blocker Roach (prop-Balmain tigers) he went through a period when he was persistently getting penalised for late tackles.
When questioned why this was happening .blocker relied "I dunno i'm getting there as soon as can".......

by **Pal Joey** Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:56 am

aucklandlaurie wrote: then theres the oposite scenario.
Blocker Roach (prop-Balmain tigers) he went through a period when he was persistently getting penalised for late tackles.
When questioned why this was happening .blocker relied "I dunno i'm getting there as soon as can".......

yeah Blocker was a bit like that. A top notch thug!

by aucklandlaurie Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:44 pm

deadfred have a read you'll enjoy it....

by emack2 Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:54 am

Man,we had that before every All Black v australia match from Dwyer or Eddie Jones.Mc caw does what Neil Back,Juan Smith,Phil Waugh,Pocock,Broussow or every other decent 7 has done since these stupid breakdown laws were introduced.
It`s as well they were`nt around in the age of reality,THEY really knew how to cheat.
THEY refers to every decent TEAM International or otherwise what went
on in the Scrums and Lineouts would bring tears to your eyes literally,nothing like having your nuts grabbed and twisted,or a punch in the eye from the second row as you packed down.
The Accidental standing on the hand of a star winger,or fixing someone winning to much Lineout ball with a short jab from a fist to the ribs or kidneys that was cheating!!!

by Gunner Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:00 am

IF YOU ARE NOT CHEATING
YOU ARE NOT TRYING!

nuf said

raspberry

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