New Zealanders cheat.....

by Adam D Wed 06 Jul 2011, 7:56 am

First topic message reminder :

Well according to former Wallabies coach Bob Dwyer they do!

As the Crusaders prepare for Saturday’s Super 15 final, former Wallabies coach Bob Dwyer has labelled some of their key players “serial infringers” of the laws of the game.

The World Cup-winning coach singled out Richie McCaw, Kieran Read, Owen Franks and Hurricane Conrad Smith for special mention.

Dwyer praised the Crusaders, per se, for making it to Saturday’s Super 15 final against the Reds in Brisbane.

“Their technique is beyond reproach which is what makes them the great side they are.”

But he slammed certain players, particularly All Black captain McCaw.

“You only have to watch what Richie does in a match. He would be guilty six times of obstruction in every game. He knocks players away from the ruck so his players can get in first to the ball. They are very good at it.

“For a variety of offences, players like Kieran Read, Owen Franks, Wayne Crockett and Conrad Smith [of the Hurricanes] are all serial infringers. The amount of infringements New Zealand props get away with is incredible.”

Dwyer also took a stab at New Zealand referees.

“Believe me, playing in New Zealand with New Zealand referees is the world’s most difficult task.”

He took New Zealand international referee Bryce Lawrence to task for his handling of the Crusaders-Sharks playoff match in Nelson a fortnight ago.

“In that Crusaders v Sharks game, Brad Thorn arrived at the tackle situation with about six players already involved there. He completely by-passed that and took out a defender one and a half metres behind the tackle area. I just ask, how do New Zealanders get away with these things?

NZ REFEREES

“The answer is, they do so because all New Zealand referees are bred on a diet of mayhem at the tackle contest and they commit mayhem in numbers which confuses referees. The trouble is, none of the other countries grow up on that diet because they are not allowed to play that way.

“It’s not part of their DNA; they don’t think they can get away with it so they don’t employ those tactics. But New Zealand refs let players do that, certainly New Zealand players.

“I think we have to keep criticising the New Zealanders and making people aware of what are illegal tactics. The law book clearly states you are not allowed to do what they do constantly.”

RINGING ENDORSEMENT

Nevertheless, Dwyer offered a ringing endorsement of the rugby played and the players’ skills this season.

“The standard of the rugby across all three countries has been fantastic, the best yet,” said the Australian, now 70. “The standout is the wear and tear on the players. But the bottom team has been able to challenge the top team and although not necessarily beat them, give them a real contest.

“There has been a lot of enterprise. That by itself might not be all that fantastic; you need a few other things, like ability for one. But you also need accurate technique and we have seen that in many teams.

“Even a new team like the Melbourne Rebels, who might have been expected to struggle, have had their moments.

“Injuries have been the biggest problem for Super 15 teams. The Waratahs had 11 of their 22 squad players missing through injury for their playoff match against the Crusaders. Eight or nine of them were Wallabies and it’s hard to make up for that sort of loss.”

source - http://www.ruggaworld.com/2011/07/05/mccaw-is-a-serial-infringer/

So do you agree?

by yappysnap Wed 06 Jul 2011, 3:12 pm

TheGreyGhost wrote:I also get the feeling he's stockpiling ammunition for the event of a Crusaders victory. Roll on the inevitable articles about how the Reds were robbed by canny New Zealander's who resorted to cheating to break the otherwise invincible Reds...all sanctioned under the watchful monocle of NZs partizan referee.

Why is your boss stockpiling ammunition incase of a Crusaders victory?!

by TheGreyGhost Wed 06 Jul 2011, 3:14 pm

I'm not sure that refs can't be influenced. I can't help noticed that Mr Lewis pinged the ABs repeatedly for phantom fouls in the Wales AI game late last year following a week of exactly the same issues being raised in the papers here.

Starting off with a penalty to Stephen Jones awarded because he stood on SBWs foot and launched himself to the ground whilst chasing a poor kick, from memory and culminating with a yellow card for "persistently not rolling away" despite the fact he'd just come onto the field and was trying to carry out his first tackle when half the Welsh front row dived on top of him pinning him to the ground.

Interesting that Lewis won't be attending the RWC. Must be a conspiracy... Wink

by disneychilly Wed 06 Jul 2011, 3:25 pm

Yeah the Aussies did a pretty good job of taking the 03 final to extra time without a scrum. Was almost the mother of all con jobs. Didn't see him bleating about that.

by emack2 Wed 06 Jul 2011, 3:32 pm

I thought Eddie Jones was the ace referee manipulater for Aus sides,has Dwyer taken over.
What he describes happens every Breakdown in everymatch by every side in the game.
Referrees know what to look for certain ones favour Home teams subconciously or not.
When you here a mighty roar from the crowd over the loudspeakers behind his back he might be influenced.

by disneychilly Wed 06 Jul 2011, 3:46 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZB9TuTJ9UY

While we're on the topic, enjoy this. I think it's hilarious. See what happens in Christchurch when McCaw gets tagged a cheat.

by Guest Wed 06 Jul 2011, 3:50 pm

Some Kiwis throwing bottles in that vid? Happens a fair bit. doesn't it? Let's hope it doesn't in the World Cup.

by disneychilly Wed 06 Jul 2011, 3:51 pm

Safe don't believe everything Basteraud tells you Wink

by Guest Wed 06 Jul 2011, 3:52 pm

Nah, maybe I'll read the NZ (and world) press reports on that.

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 06 Jul 2011, 5:10 pm

Ha, that video is funny! laughing

by Full Credit Wed 06 Jul 2011, 6:20 pm

TheGreyGhost wrote:merely raising the point that it's interesting that the Aussies have started whinging before the game is played now

.

Yes, we all got together and elected him our group spokesperson. But you're right, the Red's don't deserve to be in the final. They only beat the Crusaders, Blues (twice), Bulls, Stormers, Tahs.... etc. How audacious of us 'ockers' to dare to have a team in the final. Blimey cobber!

by TheGreyGhost Wed 06 Jul 2011, 6:59 pm

You're entitled to a team in the finals mate. But please don't give up before the game is even played. I mean, whining about the ref a week before the game? again? something's happened in Australia I think. I'm worried that your usual self confidence is cracking. Maybe it was when you lost the Ashes to the English again? or maybe when you guys lost back to back tests, home and away to the English? or when you lost the League world cup to New Zealand? Or when the ABs set you back 9 times in a row was it?

In the old days, you guys used to do a good line in victory taunting, rather than this kind of terrified week before excuse making...

by offload Wed 06 Jul 2011, 7:37 pm

Of course Dwyer is right - he's just at it from the wrong direction.

I'm ashamed at how bad Wales are at cheating - it's almost as if we don't practice it at all ?? We obviously don't spend much time on skills or the game plan so you'd think there'd be loads of time to focus on cheating! I think we need a cheating guru in as Cheating Coach - someone who can think beyond the obvious "use the wrong ball" and "field 16 men" stuff. Shame Neil Back got a job as he'd have been ideal.

by TheGreyGhost Wed 06 Jul 2011, 7:39 pm

Ah, there's your mistake. You've had upstanding Kiwi coaches who wouldn't think of cheating for far too long. If that's the game you're interested in you should've grabbed Eddie Jones as the Springboks did last time around Wink

by offload Wed 06 Jul 2011, 7:43 pm

TheGreyGhost wrote:Ah, there's your mistake. You've had upstanding Kiwi coaches who wouldn't think of cheating for far too long. If that's the game you're interested in you should've grabbed Eddie Jones as the Springboks did last time around

by Hood83 Wed 06 Jul 2011, 9:45 pm

After being lectured the other day by a group of Antipodeans and Saffas about how SH rugby sides respect one another because 'they play the game hard but fair...' blah blah blah...this thread is actually quite uplifting. Bob Dwyer obviously missed the memo.

The Aussies are past-masters at the pre-match ref nudge. But if you recognise that this is what it is, you have to question whether you can you also describe it as whinging.

I actually don;t disagree with some of his points, i often rage at the screen when i see McCaw or Franks wiping out a player 5 metres behind the ruck. But then i see it as many others on here seem to - if McCaw can do it, why can't our guys? The painfully obvious conclusion is that they're not half the player he is. So suck it up.

by Hood83 Wed 06 Jul 2011, 9:56 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZB9TuTJ9UY

While we're on the topic, enjoy this. I think it's hilarious. See what happens in Christchurch when McCaw gets tagged a cheat.

---------------------------------------------

Disneychilly - seen this before and thought it was brilliant. You just can't see the Stoop 'faithful' doing the same for Nick Easter can you - for a number of reasons Very Happy

by TheGreyGhost Wed 06 Jul 2011, 10:23 pm

Hood83 wrote:After being lectured the other day by a group of Antipodeans and Saffas about how SH rugby sides respect one another because 'they play the game hard but fair...' blah blah blah...this thread is actually quite uplifting. Bob Dwyer obviously missed the memo.

It's all good natured. The best thing about the Aussies is they can take as good as they give.

by Taylorman Wed 06 Jul 2011, 10:43 pm

"Believe me, playing in New Zealand with New Zealand referees is the world’s most difficult task"

I thought World peace was a little more difficult but fair enough Bob... and speaking of bob...Rob...

I'm not even a fan of Carters but I do recognise rubbish when I see it.

We'll just see what happens saturday when your pool topping, trophyless Reds come up against class.

by Jello Biafra Thu 07 Jul 2011, 1:13 am

something's happened in Australia I think. I'm worried that your usual self confidence is cracking. Maybe it was when you lost the Ashes to the English again? or maybe when you guys lost back to back tests, home and away to the English? or when you lost the League world cup to New Zealand? Or when the ABs set you back 9 times in a row was it?

ha ha. Terrible attempt at trying to belittle Australian sport - surely you could have done better?? I guess you tried it because Australian has been so successful over the years. But when you're used to winning as much as we are you learn how to take (and laugh at)the barbs from the pretenders/wannabes. Your comments just indicate how much you've been hurting over the years watching Aussie sporting teams taste so much success. You Kiwi's need to grow a thicker skin. You take the bait far far too easily. Really, it's like shooting fish in a barrel.

by nganboy Thu 07 Jul 2011, 1:45 am

Actually this is sort of dumb. Other than the whole argument about setting up the ref etc.

He is saying NZ teams play in a way they are used to because they are allowed to by NZ refs but wouldn't be by others.

If that were true then surely foreign refs would penalise them for playing the way they do and their style would be a disadvantage to them??

Either the foreign refs are not penalising them because:
they didn't see the illegal play
its all too confusing
they are scared of the kiwi boss of refs
they are cheating
its not illegal
its not happening

Or they are penalising them in which case its no big deal.

by aucklandlaurie Thu 07 Jul 2011, 2:01 am

OR
Peter Bills rang in the wee small hours.so Bob told him about the dream he was having.........

by boomeranga Thu 07 Jul 2011, 2:59 am

biltongbek wrote:
boomeranga wrote: Great thread

Now why are you enjoying this so much?

I do feel we owe you and yours an apology though Biltong. As an innocent bystander, you were caught up in this ugly episode.

Still, it does highlight Honest Bob's message - you just can't trust the devils to play by the rules. Smile

by disneychilly Thu 07 Jul 2011, 10:49 am

I do like the Aussie sporting mentality and think that there's none better-though Jello you've gotta admit you guys have had a rubbish couple of years!

So hypocritical though-the Aussies bleating about others breaking the rules when breaking rules was what got their country populated to the extent that it is in the first place.

Ah couldn't resist.

7s live on the edge. If you don't you're a fool. Richie is the best 7, and the only rival to the great Michael Jones in the position. It's natural he'd get stick for supposedly being the biggest cheat. When he is usurped as the premier 7 that bloke will get all the stick. It's no coincidence that NZ happens to breed the best opensides and gets slated for cheating the most.

How about the opposition get to the ball first if they're so paranoid. That's what gives you favour in the eye of a ref. Plus you can come in from the side as if you're right there the ruck hasn't formed yet!

by snoopster Thu 07 Jul 2011, 10:51 am

disneychilly wrote: It's no coincidence that NZ happens to breed the best opensides and gets slated for cheating the most.

Are you admitting New Zealanders cheat the most? Wink

by aucklandlaurie Thu 07 Jul 2011, 10:58 am

For the last dozen years or so that I played rugby, I was an openside flanker.
Never cheated once,might of nudged the odd ball on the ground in a ruck,but it was purely accidental or someone pushed me...

by disneychilly Thu 07 Jul 2011, 11:02 am

Yeah we put our hands in the tackle all the time. Oh wait, that means it's not a ruck yet...

by Hood83 Thu 07 Jul 2011, 1:46 pm

It's all good natured. The best thing about the Aussies is they can take as good as they give

----------------------------------------------------

Absolutely right GG, sorry, meant to be said with a wink. One thing i'll also say - in England there's been a myth about Aussies being poor losers - it's rubbish, and i think a lot of us realised that after the last Ashes. Zero excuses and compliments paid.

Same old same old though isn't it, idiotic journos trying to be inflammatory.

by Bathman_in_London Thu 07 Jul 2011, 2:14 pm

Bob Dwyer does have a bit of history of these sort of articles doesn he?
Here's another from last year that some of you may remember:

http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/dwyers-view-all-blacks-2010/

Basically all sides cheat, NZ are the best, so therefore the must be the best at cheating?

Wink

Good pulp sport video too, they do some funny skits.

by TheGreyGhost Thu 07 Jul 2011, 2:46 pm

Hood83 wrote:It's all good natured. The best thing about the Aussies is they can take as good as they give

----------------------------------------------------

Absolutely right GG, sorry, meant to be said with a wink. One thing i'll also say - in England there's been a myth about Aussies being poor losers - it's rubbish, and i think a lot of us realised that after the last Ashes. Zero excuses and compliments paid.

Same old same old though isn't it, idiotic journos trying to be inflammatory.

It's true. Aussies like to have a crow when they're winning, and fair dues it does happen a lot (maybe historically more than now)...how much did that Fifa WC hurt? Watching the Kiwis go toe to toe with Italy, effectively knocking them out whilst the Wallabaroos (or whatever) were being humbled by the Germans? It was just goal after goal after goal) but in defeat Aussies tend to turn on their own team with exactly the same kind of humourous mockery. I recall the Aussie TV shows after the first Lions test back in 2001, it was classic stuff.

I sometimes wonder how much the culture of enjoying sport to the extend of being able to laugh at yourself in defeat contributes to success. NZ for example, get a bit dark and reflective in defeat. The English go into denial, so much that as GH has said, an English team is never more dangerous than after they've pulled of a victory and been "let out of their introspective cage"

by OzT Thu 07 Jul 2011, 2:59 pm

Socceroos GG, socceroos!!

Smile

But you just have to listen to the aussie commentators whenever an aussie side is playing, and they bag the aussies as much as the oppos, sometimes even more if our lot does something really daft!

by disneychilly Thu 07 Jul 2011, 4:10 pm

I watched the Aussies play Italy where the Italians got that joke penalty. Was in England though with their commentators-how livid were the Aussie ones?

Actually felt NZ holding them last year was kinda payback for the Aussies. Even then another of those *****s had to dive! And no Smeltz wasn't offside LOL.

by Shifty Thu 07 Jul 2011, 7:01 pm

Hobo wrote:Well according to former Wallabies coach Bob Dwyer they do!

Your lucky Kiwi didn't give you a forum ban! laughing

by Rob B Fri 08 Jul 2011, 5:17 am

Taylorman wrote:"

We'll just see what happens saturday when your pool topping, trophyless Reds come up against class.

"pool topping"? Try competition topping, for a bit of accuracy as opposed to this rubbish.

Irrespective, I am hoping for a great game and hope (not expect) for a Reds win. It would be great for the competition to see a team take it for the first time - 10th time? What a yawn. Certainly let's hope Crusaders take it for the sake of the sanity of the Kiwi cum Crusaders supporters.

With 9-10 All Blacks playing a side with 2 current Wallabies - let's face it - could be a dark, dark season for the ABs if Crusaders don't take this one on Saturday.

by Full Credit Fri 08 Jul 2011, 6:24 am

Well if it's anything like the last two times our trophy-less Reds came up against class I'll be quite happy.

by **Pal Joey** Fri 08 Jul 2011, 6:51 am

TheGreyGhost wrote:
Hood83 wrote:It's all good natured. The best thing about the Aussies is they can take as good as they give

----------------------------------------------------

Absolutely right GG, sorry, meant to be said with a wink. One thing i'll also say - in England there's been a myth about Aussies being poor losers - it's rubbish, and i think a lot of us realised that after the last Ashes. Zero excuses and compliments paid.

Same old same old though isn't it, idiotic journos trying to be inflammatory.

It's true. Aussies like to have a crow when they're winning, and fair dues it does happen a lot (maybe historically more than now)...how much did that Fifa WC hurt? Watching the Kiwis go toe to toe with Italy, effectively knocking them out whilst the Wallabaroos (or whatever) were being humbled by the Germans? It was just goal after goal after goal) but in defeat Aussies tend to turn on their own team with exactly the same kind of humourous mockery. I recall the Aussie TV shows after the first Lions test back in 2001, it was classic stuff.

I sometimes wonder how much the culture of enjoying sport to the extend of being able to laugh at yourself in defeat contributes to success. NZ for example, get a bit dark and reflective in defeat. The English go into denial, so much that as GH has said, an English team is never more dangerous than after they've pulled of a victory and been "let out of their introspective cage"

Take your blinkers off GG,

Australia knocked Croatia out in 2006, beat Serbia in 2010 after coming up against a red-hot Germany and had a dubious draw against Ghana. The All Whites never made it to the final 16 despite their heroic draw with Italy. Don't forget we also beat Germany earlier this year to add to our wins against Argentina, France, Netherlands, Uruguay, Japan, England over the years.

I wonder by how many NZ would have lost to Germany by if they had played them in Durban that day...?

by TheGreyGhost Fri 08 Jul 2011, 11:01 am

Jeez mate, you Aussies are starting to sound more like the Poms every day. If, What, Should, Might've, when we this, when we that, on our day, blah blah blah.

Is it because you've been getting in so much practise at losing things that you're starting to adopt similar patterns of argument?

by TrailApe Fri 08 Jul 2011, 11:13 am

Same old same old though isn't it, idiotic journos trying to be inflammatory

by **Pal Joey** Fri 08 Jul 2011, 11:17 am

I hate to think what sort of threads would appear if your beloved ABs lose a few more crucial ones, mate.

The 'would have' was referring to your side...just saying. The All Whites had a decent comp and it was a pleasure to watch the game against Italy. Next step a Win, I suppose.

So, any more news today, GG? Another Bob Dwyer comment perhaps?

by disneychilly Fri 08 Jul 2011, 11:20 am

Come on Linebreaker the crucial ones don't just come along every four years mate.

by **Pal Joey** Fri 08 Jul 2011, 11:41 am

True, disneychilly.

A bit like Barb's ill-timed inputs.

I wasn't referring to you posting a thread or batch of threads as GG has done on ocassion about 'that forward pass' or 'inconsistent reffing', etc.

We all have felt hard done by certain decisions in sport (us more than you obviously in rugby) but we have our spat - in my case it's internal and lasts about half a minute (ha ha). I don't write letters of complaint, post my disapproval or whinge on public forums...I 'suffer in silence' (if you can call it that because I don't really suffer at all), then move on. Been around too long and watched too much sport to make a big issue of things. I can chip in if I have to but there's usually nothing more to add. After all, we all see it happen live or whatever - nothing we can do to change history as an individual.

Nothing against GG by the way (why would I? - he's a brave contributor I believe) but sometimes I think it's best to make your point once (maybe twice) and then put it behind. He's got nothing to worry about if you ask me.

by disneychilly Fri 08 Jul 2011, 11:55 am

That's cool mate. I sat through the semi with a bunch of biased Saffas last week and gave a jibe about SA's record going downhill when neutral refs came in. Biltong called me out and rightly so.

I'm just as dirty about that game as Ghosty-I suppose that'll please some people haha-but I'll only comment on it if people give us stick for what I think is wrong eg Carter being labelled a choker after going off injured when we were in front.

Spose he's prodded a bit though haha!

On the soccer well I think we're rubbish to watch as we're just not natural footballers. After seeing the ease in which we play with a rugby ball we look like a bunch of 'insert really un-pc description of disadvantaged people here'. But it was exciting to watch for us as we did well and got stuck in.

by boomeranga Fri 08 Jul 2011, 11:57 am

Bathman_in_London wrote:Bob Dwyer does have a bit of history of these sort of articles doesn he?

Bob is a cranky old oh dear. Most of the time hen seems to hate our players as well.

by TrailApe Fri 08 Jul 2011, 3:00 pm

Any professional player that stands up and declares he has NEVER cheated and doesn't cheat on a regular basis is a LIAR.

And logically, in fact, he's a cheat AND a liiar and deservees a good horsewhipping.

Well use a pony, those horses are a bit heavy to get a good swing with.

Any manager that faces the press and praises the oppositions good sportsmanship before a game has either

a) Got that ref WELL in his pocket
b) Just signed a 5 year contact with the opposition
c) Lost it
d) and e) and f)

Don't divide supporters into Aussies, Kiwis, Boks, Jocks, Taffs, Pommies or whatever, just divide them into Saints or Sinners, Swillers or Spillers.

Mind you, that Richie McCaw, he is good at it isn't he?

by english warrior Fri 08 Jul 2011, 9:31 pm

What!! Mccaw a cheat? whatever next, personally i think that he's one of the greatest players and refs combined to have ever stepped on to a Rugby pitch. Not everyone has his talent for being 'Offside' and getting the opposition penalised, so he must have superhuman powers and great skill, as both a ref and player.

Otherwise he'merely a chancing so and so, who blatantly gets away with murder on a Rugby pitch, because refs have been instructed not to see him. These refs are also human beings who want to officiate at matches, especially in a world cup year and all must know that Paddy o Kiwi will have their guts for garters if they as much as look at Richie the wrong way, never mind penalise him.

So maybe Bob Dwyher has a fair point (and most of us think he has) but it'll be a brave ref who will bring Mcc to heel and give him fair treatment, namely a yellow followed by a RED!!

by TheGreyGhost Fri 08 Jul 2011, 11:00 pm

You don't think it might be, that McCaw just knows the laws better than the average punter who screams "offside" when he sees something that he thinks looks a bit wrong?

A lot of players, very good, very professional ones...don't know the breakdown laws. Hence we see guys doing things when they shouldn't, or not doing things when they could...

Perhaps, just perhaps, McCaw isn't this enormous cheat who gets every referee to penalise the wrong side...but actually just throroughly knows the laws, learns how certain refs interpret them and plays accordingly?

As good as he is, I don't think he has yet mastered Jedi mind control.

by Knowsit17 Fri 08 Jul 2011, 11:31 pm

Cheating is an unsubtle term in this case. Let's just say NZ have, for decades, had no scruples with doing whatever it takes to get a result. That is to say bending the rules to the limit, playing the ref on the day, attempting to outmuscle and intimidate the opposition. I could go on. Dwyer would be right in citing McCaw as a crafty individual to say the least.

It's been a key part of NZ's success outside the RWC, albeit not all of their success.

by TheGreyGhost Fri 08 Jul 2011, 11:39 pm

Oh yes. New Zealand actually having talented rugby teams is far too much of an unlikely story. Quality cheating. World class cheating. That's what it is.

by The_Hound_of_Harrow Sat 09 Jul 2011, 12:12 am

I've just read back on this thread and seen that video. I guess it's just me, but was no one else concerned about the level of verbal and physical shoite levelled at the journo? I mean, it was so obviously a spoof, but the hatred was real.

Sense of humour alert!!!

by Full Credit Sat 09 Jul 2011, 4:08 am

Apparently there are just some things you don't joke about.

I'd like to see the same thing done in Sydney about Elsom. The responses would either be a) So what, he's not very good at it. or b) What's an Elsom?

by aucklandlaurie Sat 09 Jul 2011, 4:24 am

Come to think of it Richie McCaw would make a fine referee,probably every bit as good as Fitzpatrick........

by Sponsored content