Martin Johnson has faith in his foreign legion

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nottins_jones wrote:When the time comes he'll likely get picked,

This is the point really - Wales, and other nations, aren't not picking residency qualified players because of a moral stance by their head coaches (Hell, Wales and Ireland even have the project player allowance for exactly that reason), they're not picking them because there aren't any currently available who are good enough.
In July 2008 if SBW had opted to join the Ospreys instead of Toulon and then stayed there until today Warren Gatland would be outside his front door on his knees begging him to play for Wales.

It just makes the whole debate silly, since any honest person knows that this is the case.

I didn't know of that. Pretty fair what Gatland said to be honest.

Yes, I think he's better than the Saxons. Not every team has an A-team and not every player needs to represent the A-team before making the step up.

[i]"No matter what we've been through, if you step up then I'll step up to."

Martin Johnson

nottins_jones, I think the main point is that there are about 4 players selected in the training team that have a few English fans very unhappy.

Dylan Hartley, Shontayne Hape, Hendre Fourie, Thomas Waldrom, Mouritz Botha

You have the four mentioned here - I don't think we have any qualms about Dylan Hartley

However the Welsh media article mentions 14 and you have said

relying on overseas mercenairies

I think that the case is a tad overstated and I think the vast majority of reasonable people accept that, with the odd exceptions here and there.

Past-time mercenaries include Riki Flutey, Mike Catt, etc...

On this topic, I don't think the 'past' is somewhere a Welsh supporter would like to go.

nottins_jones wrote:

nottins wrote:

nottins_jones wrote:Cumbrian

Until then...what about England, the largest Union, relying on overseas mercenairies instead of their players that have come through the England acadamies? You know there's something up with the transition into senior national level when this is happening.

Name ALL these "overseas mercenaries" that England are relying on.

Sure thing: Dylan Hartley, Shontayne Hape, Hendre Fourie, Thomas Waldrom, Mouritz Botha... Past-time mercenaries include Riki Flutey, Mike Catt, etc...

And which of those past and present "mercenaries" don't have English parents and have actually been capped by England ?

You're clutching at straws now nottins , try sticking to the topic.

Why are England's players being overlooked for mercenaries like Flutey, Hape, Hartley, Fourie, Waldrom and Botha? I've already questioned the transition between Saxons/U20's and the seior level in England but yet nobody has even considered what I've said. I think the following speaks volumes:

"But it’s the selection of Waldrom and Botha that has provoked the greatest debate.

Leicester No. 8 Waldrom, who only discovered he was eligible midway through the season, has been preferred to Luke Narraway, who captained the England Saxons to Churchill Cup success last month.

Gloucester skipper Narraway, who has been in prime form this year, took to Twitter to vent his frustrations at being overlooked for the New Zealander.

He posted: “Good luck to Thomas the tank and his English nan. £notbittermuch.”

Narraway isn’t the only one less than enamoured by Johnson’s foreign policy, which has earned criticism for the message it sends out to young, home-grown players.

Several commentators have questioned whether a union with the resources of England really needs to cast its net so wide.

They have more registered senior players (166,672) than any other country, far exceeding their nearest rival, France (110,270).

By comparison, New Zealand has a mere 27,374 players to choose from, according to IRB figures, and the All Blacks have consistently been the benchmark for Test-playing nations."

As a Welshman I feel I have to point out that, despite what it claims, the Western Mail is not the 'national newspaper of Wales.' It is a rag and its journalists write badly. Please don't assume that they speak for the nation.

Why are there two nottins'?

Good point luckless. Ok, just to clear things up none of this is the fault of England. Perhaps the IRB should be more strict on it's eligibilty criteria to stop it from being exploited, cough New Zealand cough, Wales n Shane Howarth cough... I might be over-reacting but if it isn't reviewed the national game could end up becoming like French club rugby?

nottins_jones wrote:You're clutching at straws now nottins , try sticking to the topic.

I AM on topic by disproving that the players that YOU mentioned were overseas mercenaries playing for England and England relying on "overseas mercenaries"

Answer the question and then we'll see how many "overseas mercenaries" without English parents that have been capped by England.

Notch wrote:Why are there two nottins'?

I've no idea

nottins_jones wrote:Why are England's players being overlooked for mercenaries like Flutey, Hape, Hartley, Fourie, Waldrom and Botha? I've already questioned the transition between Saxons/U20's and the seior level in England but yet nobody has even considered what I've said. I think the following speaks volumes:

Hartley has an english parent and came up through the system - he played for england at age grade and for the Saxons.
Waldrom also didn't qualify through residency.
Neither has Botha, who like Fourie has worked his way up through the club system in England and played for the Saxons.

Really though, they all are qualified and as I've said any intelligent person knows that other nations do, and will do, exactly the same. Rather than worry about England, how about you worry about Gatland's clear intent to "poach" Ben Morgan - he's actively encouraging a player to turn down his nation inthe hope that he will later qualify for Wales and will choose to play for them. That has got to be a new low in rugby and one I hope other naitons never copy.

Flutey, Hape and Hartley each learnt their rugby in NZ and have been capped by England, therefore are mercenaries. Why is this so hard to understand nottins? You have a few more en route to (Botha, Fourie, Waldrom). You also ignored the rest of my comment, stay on topic and read the whole comment instead of believing you've disproved something.

"I have met Ben and I do know that Martin Johnson has rung him to ask him to make himself available for the England Saxons this summer," said Gatland.

"But I have told Ben that he should wait until he qualifies for Wales in January.

"That will give him a choice of England or Wales.

"I spoke to Ben after the Scarlets win over the Blues and told him he would have been selected for this Wales squad to play the Baa-baas, if he was qualified for Wales."

Morgan signed a new Scarlets contract, believed to be for three years, in March, turning down a number of approaches from leading English clubs."

Yeah you're right such a new low Gatland asking him to consider his options as opposed to 'actively encouraging a player to turn down his nation inthe hope that he will later qualify for Wales and will choose to play for them.' You'd rather Morgan flatter the Saxons then dissapear under the radar? Because that is what would have happened now that he's signed a new contract with the Scarlets. He was good enough for the England team, if he was offered an England cap it could have been a different story. But again if this is low then it has to be down there with poaching ex NZ Maori and NZ RL players and offering Samoans scholarships in the hope they turn down their country to play for England in the future...

The main thing that bothers me (and probably most others) is Hape & Flutey not necessarily because of back ground / nationality it’s because we could easily cope without them.

Fourie will never be more than a bit part player

Wladrom will never be more than a bit part player assuming he actually gets a cap

Botha, well I'm not too bothered, he never played professional rugby prior to coming here & he's been here 7 years so he would qualify under all the suggested residency rules.

All the others have direct English parentage

Welsh training squad playes born 'overseas'

Luke Charteris England
Dan Lydiate England
Toby Faletau Tonga
Jonathan Davies England
George North England

And a special mention for Gareth Delve, totally bucking the trend, who although born in Wales, is a rugby product of Bristol, Bath, Gloucester and Melbourne.


Shocking!

TrailApe;

We had a topic on this a few weeks ago, Hobo tweeted Dylan Hartley about his eligibility and he even had the good grace to tweet back:

https://www.606v2.com/t7642-how-does-dylan-hartley-qualify-for-england (near the bottom of the page).

People calling Hartley a mercenary when he came over here at 16 on a school exchange, stayed with English relatives (his mother being fully English) and playing his way up into the Worcester academy and eventually England selection is perfectly fine in my opinion.

nottins_jones

Can't give a straight answer can you over Gatland encouraging Morgan to reject a call up by the only nation he is currently qualified for can you?
It is the real low point here but clearly doesn't matter to you, since it appears that it is the Welsh head coach doing it that makes it okay in your books - if the situation was the other way around I dread to think of the endless bleating we would hear from you.

snoop did you not understand what I said? He encouraged him to think about his options before accepting a pathetic Saxons call up. If he were offered a full England cap then he may have had a different answer. If he ends up playing for us he does, lets us know what you're talking about if and when he gets that Wales cap. He isn't capped by Wales currently so is there a case for nottins_jones to answer?

And just something else I said earlier which you may have missed, nottins_jones to quote nottins_jones: 'But again if this is low then it has to be down there with poaching ex NZ Maori and NZ RL players and offering Samoans scholarships in the hope they turn down their country to play for England in the future....' Now that is ONE thing I hope other rugby playing nations NEVER copy .

nottins_jones,

yes that list was a bit pathetic and I for one would not class any of those English/Tongan born lads as mercenaries for playing for Wales, nor do I see them as 'overseas' players, although if you follow the criteria of Welsh newpaper, they are part of the Gatland's Foriegn Legion.

And as mentioned previously, going by the opinions on these board, most English fans are unhappy with Hape, Flutey and the others, mainly because we don't think there is a need for them, although it has been pointed out several times that Fourie and Botha have been here for quite a while, battling it out in the lower divisions before rising to prominence.

So Johnson is being pragmatic, and remember you admitted you would be quite willing to countenance doing the same if the relevant players turned out good enough, so either its WRONG or its acceptable, you can't claim foul if the RFU do it but then allow the WRFU to do it.

I mentioned Delve as I thought it was quite interesting that although he is accepted as Welsh (and I've no doubt he considers himself as Welsh), he has been developed as a rugby player in England.

Just the other side of the coin of the argument, accident of birthplace vs rugby development years.

No problem with Hape or Flutely or Botha or Fourie representing England. Hape, Fourie and Botha over here for a quite a while before playing.

Flutely came to England to turn his life around and he did that. He's perfect example of immigration

nottins_jones wrote:is there a case for nottins_jones to answer?

Referring to yourself in the third person. Oh dear.

nottins_jones wrote:snoop are you a bit dim or just not understand what I said? He encouraged him to think about his options before accepting a pathetic Saxons call up. If he were offered a full England cap then he may have had a different answer. If he ends up playing for us he does, lets us know what you're talking about if and when he gets that Wales cap. He isn't capped by Wales currently so is there a case for nottins_jones to answer?

And just something else I said earlier which you may have missed, nottins_jones to quote nottins_jones: 'But again if this is low then it has to be down there with poaching ex NZ Maori and NZ RL players and offering Samoans scholarships in the hope they turn down their country to play for England in the future....' Now that is ONE thing I hope other rugby playing nations NEVER copy.

Ah so it is okay to poach players as long as the team you are trying to poach them from has only tried to offer them a place in their A team. You will note, I'm sure, that England (and every rugby playing nation apart from Wales) haven't encouraged a player to reject a call up by their country with the implied promise of an international call up - Gatland is alone in that shockingly low behaviour.
Are you so obsessed with England's squad because you are too embaressed to dwell on Gatland's Welsh team?

Either way, I'm done.

I am also interested about the quote about giving Samoans scholarships, as I thought that was something that another nation (or 2) was more associated with.

Is there actually any evidence to back up that statement?

All, there's a few comments in here from multiple posters I'm about to edit some personal insults out of - remember to attack the argument NOT the poster


-

nottins_jones wrote:snoop did you not understand what I said? He encouraged him to think about his options before accepting a pathetic Saxons call up. If he were offered a full England cap then he may have had a different answer. If he ends up playing for us he does, lets us know what you're talking about if and when he gets that Wales cap. He isn't capped by Wales currently so is there a case for nottins_jones to answer?

And just something else I said earlier which you may have missed, nottins_jones to quote nottins_jones: 'But again if this is low then it has to be down there with poaching ex NZ Maori and NZ RL players and offering Samoans scholarships in the hope they turn down their country to play for England in the future....' Now that is ONE thing I hope other rugby playing nations NEVER copy .

Do you know Gatland personally?

Reason i ask is that you seem to know that Gatland did this for Morgans benefit and not the benefit of wales rugby...

I wonder Simon Thomas who wrote the article would have the balls to tell these players they don't deserve to play for England as they are supposedly not English. I doubt it.

Keyboard warriors are brave when typing.

The Welsh media should look closer to home.

Look snoop, you can't have Gatland stooping to a whole new level because he suggested Ben Morgan consider his options for the future by rejecting a world beating Saxons call-up then think it's fine for you lot to steal NZ Maori's/League players and Samoan's in the middle of the night; double standards much? For me that beats everything in the stoop low-meter.

If Ben were to play for Wales when he is qualified that would be to our benefit. For now, the actions he has taken (reject the Saxons offer) is for his benefit.

just joined almost comforting to see nothing has changed.......

luckless_pedestrian wrote:

nottins_jones wrote:is there a case for nottins_jones to answer?

Referring to yourself in the third person. Oh dear.

Is it so bad to talk to yourself luckless? Next I'll be spending my weekends on here drinking 'virtual drinks' in a 'virtual pub' instead of going out.

i bet you will...

nottins_jones, there's nothing to say you can't do both!

Hmmm, as opposed to being in here on a Friday night instead of out enjoying the evening

(Says me who's still at work )

nottins_jones wrote:Look snoop, you can't have Gatland stooping to a whole new level because he suggested Ben Morgan consider his options for the future by rejecting a world beating Saxons call-up then think it's fine for you lot to steal NZ Maori's/League players and Samoan's in the middle of the night; double standards much? For me that beats everything in the stoop low-meter.

If Ben were to play for Wales when he is qualified that would be to our benefit. For now, the actions he has taken (reject the Saxons offer) is for his benefit.

You need a lesson in how to form an argument nottins_jones, if Ben Morgan were to play for the Saxons he would not be Welsh Qualified and therefore that would be of no benefit to Wales at all. The last sentence of your post offers an "argument" that includes two mutually inclusive points - ergo, it's not an argument.

You also mentioned earlier that the RFU has more registered players than anyone else so shouldn't be casting it's net to include foreign born players that ARE actually registered with the RFU and therefore ARE part of that large resource from which you suggest they should be picking their players - ergo, it's not an argument.

If you carry on like that you'll disappear up your own backside.

I, like many other England supporters on here and elsewhere have an issue with Hape and Flutey in so much as they have both represented the country of their birth through the age groups and onto full honours in League and full "ethnic honours" in union, so as far as they are concerned you're preaching to the converted.

Fourie was never anywhere near a Bok's jersey, likewise Botha - they both developed into much better players here in England under the structure of the RFU, Waldrom probably wont go the the WC (I would have an issue with him if he did) and the others have English parentage so where's the real beef?

With the exceptions mentioned, that the vast majority of people have an issue with, the other players are products of England.

Honestly, get over yourself, your "argument" stinks.

I think it's interesting the way that MJ is now defending his foreign mercenaries rather than claiming they're all English really, as the threads on here until recently have been trying to claim.

We're all agreed? England packed to the gunnels with foreigners, but "who cares really"?

TheGreyGhost wrote:I think it's interesting the way that MJ is now defending his foreign mercenaries rather than claiming they're all English really, as the threads on here until recently have been trying to claim.

We're all agreed? England packed to the gunnels with foreigners, but "who cares really"?

Not all agreed. England have a full complement of England-Qualified players, three of which could be described as mercenary in their approach to playing representative rugby, 66.66666% of which are your countrymen. Agreed on that are we?

TheGreyGhost wrote:I think it's interesting the way that MJ is now defending his foreign mercenaries rather than claiming they're all English really, as the threads on here until recently have been trying to claim.

We're all agreed? England packed to the gunnels with foreigners, but "who cares really"?

Is the answer... you? A disproportionately large amount? Even for a rugby fanatic?

PJHolybloke wrote:

TheGreyGhost wrote:I think it's interesting the way that MJ is now defending his foreign mercenaries rather than claiming they're all English really, as the threads on here until recently have been trying to claim.

We're all agreed? England packed to the gunnels with foreigners, but "who cares really"?

Not all agreed. England have a full complement of England-Qualified players, three of which could be described as mercenary in their approach to playing representative rugby, 66.66666% of which are your countrymen. Agreed on that are we?

Oh no, inter-national squablling within the ranks surely must be something MJ can do without. Gosh, I hope this kind of "you Kiwi mercenaries" thing doesn't break out within the team after a loss or two.

If MJ is already calling them a foreign legion, then your continued claims that they are all exactly the same as "english qualified" is at odds with the great man's perception?

TheGreyGhost wrote:

PJHolybloke wrote:

TheGreyGhost wrote:I think it's interesting the way that MJ is now defending his foreign mercenaries rather than claiming they're all English really, as the threads on here until recently have been trying to claim.

We're all agreed? England packed to the gunnels with foreigners, but "who cares really"?

Not all agreed. England have a full complement of England-Qualified players, three of which could be described as mercenary in their approach to playing representative rugby, 66.66666% of which are your countrymen. Agreed on that are we?

Oh no, inter-national squablling within the ranks surely must be something MJ can do without. Gosh, I hope this kind of "you Kiwi mercenaries" thing doesn't break out within the team after a loss or two.

If MJ is already calling them a foreign legion, then your continued claims that they are all exactly the same as "english qualified" is at odds with the great man's perception?

No squabling in the ranks - I'm just a fan; as for "you kiwi mercenaries" if the cap fits - wear it with pride. I'm not sue who you're quoting there, but you don't necessarily have to have an actual source do you? You seem to be comfortable inventing your own subject matter.

I would respond to your last sentence, but I'm unsure as to whether it's a statement, argument or question, sort it out and I'll have a lash at it.

nottins_jones wrote:Look snoop, you can't have Gatland stooping to a whole new level because he suggested Ben Morgan consider his options for the future by rejecting a world beating Saxons call-up then think it's fine for you lot to steal NZ Maori's/League players and Samoan's in the middle of the night; double standards much? For me that beats everything in the stoop low-meter.

We know Gatland encouraged Morgan to reject an international call up, it is right there in the media. I look forwards to you seeing the similar proof of an England official acting in the same way - encouraging a player not qualified for England to reject a call up. Or an apology... but I'm not going to hold my breath on either.

nottins_jones wrote:If Ben were to play for Wales when he is qualified that would be to our benefit. For now, the actions he has taken (reject the Saxons offer) is for his benefit.

so it isn't to your benefit for Morgan to keep alive the possibility of qualifying for Wales?

TheGreyGhost wrote:If MJ is already calling them a foreign legion, then your continued claims that they are all exactly the same as "english qualified" is at odds with the great man's perception?

He has? Where?

Sorry TGG, my mistake. Waldrom is a Kiwi too isn't he?

Therefore it's not 66.66666% of the players who are NZ mercenaries - it's actually 100%.

Sort your mates out then have a pop at England, if you've got time.

PJ TGG

You're not here for the rugby are you son?

Waldrom voiced exactly the feelings of the other Kiwi rejects in my mind. "I want to play for anyone at all, just to show the ABs what they missed". Unfortunately, they probably know already and that's why they weren't picked. Top marks to them for having the burning ambition to not let non-selection prevent them from having an international career. Just kind of sad that Kiwi rejects are the best options for so many places in the "England" team, in my opinion...especially with so many proud young English lads queueing up for a go.

If any of them make the England team we'll reconvene, in the interim let's dwell on the fact that NZ once tried to poach MJ.

At least MJ knew where HIS heart was, clearly this is a Kiwi problem for them and you.

TheGreyGhost wrote:Waldrom voiced exactly the feelings of the other Kiwi rejects in my mind. "I want to play for anyone at all, just to show the ABs what they missed". Unfortunately, they probably know already and that's why they weren't picked. Top marks to them for having the burning ambition to not let non-selection prevent them from having an international career. Just kind of sad that Kiwi rejects are the best options for so many places in the "England" team, in my opinion...especially with so many proud young English lads queueing up for a go.

but according to nottins_jones, England stole them from New Zealand as Gatland is trying to steal Morgan from England... you two should argue it out.

the whole thing is that if you look at the welsh players who arent born in wales all of them have parents who are welsh and were only in england for a short period of time such as george north, faleatu moved over here at a very young age and classes himself as welsh and whoever RIDICULOUSLY said about DELVE, you fail to see had had caps for wales pre going to aus and is welsh so...

the thing i think is that people like hartley coming here at a young age is fair enough, and he classes himself as english and i have no problem with that for me its theses players who know they cant get into their home nations team so go somewhere and try to live there to play for that country.


ALSO the thing about with Gatland is not being low its just being canny, i mean look at the 8's england have and a saxons cap mean he is tied to england and may not play for the full team for years, whereas when he becomes elligable either johnson has to offer him a full cap to keep him and if not it shows he is not a priority and gets a cap for wales instead.

The lad is in his first season he is probably shell shocked and is keeping his options open, i mean it must be hard for him with knowing all this, he is english but wales helped him get to this stage, england may not offer him a full cap or may get 1 and be kepy on the sideline whereas with wales he has a good chance to push for th 8 jersey.

All you Welsh and Irish should learn from Englands use of their 'Foreign legion' and that is that England have won a World cup, albeit with only 2or 3 players that might be classed as foreign, while they have yet to disturb the engraver on the Webb- Ellis. So there's a hint on how to succeed, so off you go!! Ha,ha,ha!!

PJHolybloke wrote:If any of them make the England team we'll reconvene, in the interim let's dwell on the fact that NZ once tried to poach MJ.

At least MJ knew where HIS heart was, clearly this is a Kiwi problem for them and you.

I thought the story was that England failed to identify his potential, and disenchanted he wandered off to the states to take a look at American Football, where he *was* spotted by a Kiwi, taken to the heartland and trained in the ways of a master. As is now the firmly established trend, once England had seen the trimmed and packaged product, they wanted it. I wonder if this failure to spot or develop potential is what holds England back and why they recruit so many foreign mercenaries to both club and country.

TheGreyGhost wrote:

PJHolybloke wrote:If any of them make the England team we'll reconvene, in the interim let's dwell on the fact that NZ once tried to poach MJ.

At least MJ knew where HIS heart was, clearly this is a Kiwi problem for them and you.

I thought the story was that England failed to identify his potential, and disenchanted he wandered off to the states to take a look at American Football, where he *was* spotted by a Kiwi, taken to the heartland and trained in the ways of a master. As is now the firmly established trend, once England had seen the trimmed and packaged product, they wanted it. I wonder if this failure to spot or develop potential is what holds England back and why they recruit so many foreign mercenaries to both club and country.

Actually Martin Johnson played a three-way tournament with England Schoolboys against Australia and New Zealand Schoolboys in Australia, and he was spotted by John Albert who invited him over to New Zealand to play for a team there. If he had have stayed, he would have been a regular in Leicester seconds, playing the odd game in the first team.

Still, don't let the truth get in the way of a good story.

ALSO the thing about with Gatland is not being low its just being canny, i mean look at the 8's england have and a saxons cap mean he is tied to england and may not play for the full team for years, whereas when he becomes elligable either johnson has to offer him a full cap to keep him and if not it shows he is not a priority and gets a cap for wales instead.
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It makes sense to Morgan to keep his options open if all he cares about is playing international rugby, and doesn't care who for.

But I thought the gist of the article was that England are wrong to be picking players not born in England (in my view an outdated way of defining nationality in the modern world)? If so then Wales making public statements to encourage Morgan to stay available for Wales must also be wrong.