Homegrown Scarlets are bearing fruit for coach Nigel Davies

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2011/07/06/homegrown-scarlets-are-bearing-fruit-for-coach-nigel-davies-91466-29000776/#ixzz1RSqUh6Tn

They are BUT Scarlets need an outside influence. They have become too insular and need someone influencial to bring in one or two new ideas and a new skill set. Like Johann Muller did for Ulster or Rocky Elsom did for Leinster.

They have an entirely ex-Llanelli coaching team, their ideas are only coming from one place. Its a good coaching team. I think an experienced and influencial tight 5 forward would suit them down to the ground.

Stag, why do we need one? why is that essential?

What proof is there that we have become too insular? The last foreign coach we had was Muggleton as a defence coach and he was awful for us, our defence truly went to pot and it only started getting even slightly good again towards the end of a full season of Easterby coaching them.

Just genuinely interested in what you have to say as I have a feeling that I actually agree with you a little bit, especially with getting someone in for the front 5

I do agree about the tight five coach. having a strong pack would certainly give us the edge we lacked this year. We have the players to form a decent pack but we need that toughness. Robin Mcbryde might be free after the world cup and he's done a half decent job with wales...

rugbydreamer wrote:Stag, why do we need one? why is that essential?

What proof is there that we have become too insular? The last foreign coach we had was Muggleton as a defence coach and he was awful for us, our defence truly went to pot and it only started getting even slightly good again towards the end of a full season of Easterby coaching them.

Just genuinely interested in what you have to say as I have a feeling that I actually agree with you a little bit, especially with getting someone in for the front 5

Right just my opinion.

I think Scarlets have a good coaching team and I wouldn't like to see it broken up. BUT you have ex Llanelli players teaching the things they learned from older Llanelli coaches to the new Scarlets players coming up. Its been a while since Llanelli were one of the absolute best teams in Europe.

I think with a little bit of an external influence they can add to the good work the coaching team is doing. Keep your coaching team. Bring in an influencial tight 5 forward and let him help your guys because I feel this is where your team is lacking. Imagine the same back and style of attacking play but with solid set pieces and a real go forward pack.

Look at Leinster, they haven't sacrificed the good back play even though their forwards toughened up.

I llike what you're saying Stag. It would be good to bring someone in who has experience of putting together a pack that can work with the Scarlets style. Any suggestions? If we're talking non ex scarlets then Mcbryde would be out. who else is there?

mckay1402 wrote:I llike what you're saying Stag. It would be good to bring someone in who has experience of putting together a pack that can work with the Scarlets style. Any suggestions? If we're talking non ex scarlets then Mcbryde would be out. who else is there?

I'm talking about a player not a coach

It's not a bad idea.

David Lyons did a great job. I also think that Scarlets players who have been away and come back, like Scott Quinnell and Stephen Jones gave a hell of a lot back on their return.

It is one of the most famous rugby clubs in the world and has been the launch pad for so many of rugby's great players. Delme Thomas, Barry John, Phill Bennet, Jonathan Davies, the Quinnell dynasty, JJ Williams and many more.

It is wonderful to see the promise coming through.

I think the thing is that the Scarlets have a particular style that they play in, and that certain types of player will fit in and certain ones, no matter how good they are, would not. For example Regan King didn't exactly set the world alight when he was at Stade, but his style and attitude fitted in with that of the Scarlets, however if we were to splash the cash and bring in someone Ma Nonu or Jamie Roberts (been trying to think of someone who is more power based than flair in the centre) no matter how good a player they are their style would not fit with that of the players around them.

As for being insular, there is a lot to be said for building a squad of players that feel at home with each other and have team spirit as opposed to a team of mercanaries who are looking to build upon their own reputation without really caring about the reputation of their team mates and their team. I think that is one of the reasons that you see teams in the French leagues excelling for a few seasons, whent he money is there, and then plummeting totally when the money dries up. The Scarlets were on a bit of a downward spiral after they reached the HC semi a few seasons ago, because of putting faith in a miracle signing. It looks promising that we are not going down that route anymore.

Scarlet, I would say that the current Scarlet tight 5 don't fit in with the team. Its not a multi million pound signing that I'd advocate just someone with the means of showing your tight players how to do it. You backrow links up with your backline excellently. But I feel that the tight 5 just get carried along slightly.

Stag - the front five are not the best when it comes to the set peice, however I would argue that they fit in with the style pretty well. Rhys Thomas has scored a handfull of tries this season (two in one match) by being on the end of a pass, as opposed to in the traditional way props score. Smiler and Ken Owens are far better with ball in hand than most welsh hookers, and our second rows love to carry the ball and look to get he pass out.

I do agree they need some coaching on how to do things the traditional tight forward way. Maybe the likes of (old) John Davies could help the front row out and Chris Wyatt could teach our young locks how to be a bit more aggressive (as well as how to play an open game).

Ah Chris Wyatt, there's a name. I think we need a player of his mould in the squad.

Stag - I get what you're saying. Both Regan King and David Lyons were the sort of players with an outside influence that did great things for the Scarlets, if we could get someone as influential as them in our front five it would be amazing. But we can't afford a really top player, and we probably won't for a few seasons so as it stands I'm happy for the Scarlets to continue as they are. McBryde has done a great job in sorting out our lineout since he came on board this season, here's just hoping our scrum can get better now.

rugbydreamer wrote:Ah Chris Wyatt, there's a name. I think we need a player of his mould in the squad.

Stag - I get what you're saying. Both Regan King and David Lyons were the sort of players with an outside influence that did great things for the Scarlets, if we could get someone as influential as them in our front five it would be amazing.

Yes thats what I'm saying.

I think the issue is the price tag on a front five player. We did try and get someone who was a quality player with vast experience to pass on when we signed Kees Meeuws, however that bit us in the bum with him being injured for so long.

wait. we signed Kees Meeuws? I was not aware of that at all

You make a good point Red Stag but as has been said we can't really afford a really good experienced front 5 player yet - and with coaches I'd be a bit loath to get rid of McBryde as I think he's doing a good job.

I think the Scarlets have done a fantastic job, they have given kids an oppertunity and many have grasped it with both hands.
Good luck to them, except when they play the Ospreys of course!

Priest, yea money will dictate it. I think the Scarlets have done a superb job off the pitch. I see they are copying what Musnter did a few years ago with the Munster Way (the Scarlet Way). I don't mean copying as a bad thing. Munster for years had a big support - Scarlets needs to look at these kind of stuff. Their Scarlet Way and Shareholder scheme are ingenious ideas that will draw in more fans. I think the likes of Scarlets will benefit from how unpopular the idea of regionalism is in Wales.

Stag - no offence intended here but I'd hardly say we're copying Munster. Scarlets are just going back to basics of what was so successful for Llanelli RFC. The re-branding that they've done this season though to make them 'heart and soul rugby country' I agree is very good.

I hope so and I do hope they build on the great idea of the pre- and post-game Barn and the ideas you listed above.

A few problems with the Scarlets region (which are nothing to do with the Scarlets) is the p!ss poor public transport in the region meaning that unless you drive it is difficult to get back from late games to Cardiff and neigh on impossible to get to/back from games if you live in Aberystwyth, Llandovery or Haverfordwest way.

But fingers crossed Scarlets will go from strength to strength - and you never know maybe one day Munster will be looking up at us and thinking maybe we should be doing it that way...

Ohh ps (and totally off topic) ScarletsSpiderman how do you get the Scarlets symbol above your name?

rugbydreamer wrote:Stag - no offence intended here but I'd hardly say we're copying Munster.

It is an initative that Munster successfully used a few years ago. The exact same. Munster copied how Leicester Tigers did things. Don't see why anyone would get offended by it.

not offended I just don't see that we're copying specifically Munster, a lot of the things I'm seeing form the Scarlets this past season are exactly what Llanelli RFC used to do when I was growing up.

Dreamer:

Munster Walk 2007 - http://www.munsterrugby.ie/news/1908.php

Scarlets Way 2011 - its on Scarlets website can't provide link.

Anyway Dreamer, it was such a small aside that they copied Munster. Take of it what you will. Just pointed out it was a successful initative used by Munster and they are using now.

Point is they are drawing in fans like they used to as a club.

Stag - the Scarlets did this in 2009, we've got all bricks with names of fans etc for the Ray Gravell Walkway. A fair few stadiums do things like this.

I get that they're doing things similar I just find it a bit strange that you are saying we're specifically copying Munster.

And yep it's good we're getting the fans back again. We have a few seasons where the management seemed to get above themselves, they handled the Stradey situation badly and they peed money up the wall with rubbish signings and all that combined it turned a lot of people away. They've gone back to how they used to do things, emphasising themselves as a family team again, and the fans are coming back. It helps too that we've got so many local youngsters playing for us now as well, there's a lot of pride in the region at the moment, tis good to see

rugbydreamer wrote:Stag - the Scarlets did this in 2009, we've got all bricks with names of fans etc for the Ray Gravell Walkway. A fair few stadiums do things like this.

I get that they're doing things similar I just find it a bit strange that you are saying we're specifically copying Munster.
And yep it's good we're getting the fans back again. We have a few seasons where the management seemed to get above themselves, they handled the Stradey situation badly and they peed money up the wall with rubbish signings and all that combined it turned a lot of people away. They've gone back to how they used to do things, emphasising themselves as a family team again, and the fans are coming back. It helps too that we've got so many local youngsters playing for us now as well, there's a lot of pride in the region at the moment, tis good to see

I thought it was a 2011 thing and hadn't seen other teams do it. Anyway lets not get bogged down in that. IMO though they needed get out of Stradley even if it alienated a few Llanelli people. Scarlets is an evolution of Llanelli not a continuation. The move from Stradley will be forgotten in time I suspect. I notice you use the word region. It seems to me a team anyone can support. A super club rather than a region.

Well yes because officially we are a region. Use super club if you will, it might even be true, Llanelli before the Scarlets was ever a super club/region anyway with people from the whole of West Wales supporting them, not just the folk of Llanelli. Which is a point Smirnoff made about how poor the public transport is in Wales. When I was at Uni in Aberystwyth it was impossible for me to travel to and from home games. It's just another difficulty the Scarlets face in trying to get their fans through the gates!

And yeah we did have to leave Stradey. What some people in Llanelli who are still annoyed with the move don't realise is that some of the crowds we got this season at Y Parc we could never have had at Stradey. That and you add on all our new facilities such as the supporters village etc, it's just a hugely positive move in my opinion. Going to take a fair few years for the resentment to fully die down (if it ever will, which I doubt).

Success breeds resentment Dreamer.

ah they're well used to that in Llanelli Stag!

rugbydreamer wrote:ah they're well used to that in Llanelli Stag!

Exactly people hated Tigers, England, Munster even the Ospreys got it from the other regions when it looked like they were going to achieve things.

Tackling is the key area wanting in improvement atm. If the Scarlets don't learn to tackle better than last season then they can't expect to get much further. Clear confirmation that no matter how razor-edged the attack may seem at times, it will not produce the goods without a defence.

But Knowsit the problem with defence is more to do with the open style of play the Scarlets adopt - from the midfield trying to steal the ball as opposed to stopping the player, to throwing the ball around all over the park. It all creates a high risk game where you either exploit the gaps in the opposition defence before they have a chance to set or you get turned over/knock on and the opposition exploits the gaps in your defence.

I think our real problem is our front 5, as if we could get some real grunt in there we'd be a match for most teams.

Although dare I say is R Thomas has improved a lot and the pack is getting much better

Agree with Smirnoff

Think its not as simplistic as just strengthening the front 5. as spiderman mentioned props/locks tend to be expensive and not guaranteed to be a success. Hottie Louw, Simon Maling, Kees Meeuws, Craig Dunlea etc…were a waste of money in all honesty. Although we will have to replace manu if he decides to leave this summer

red_stag wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:ah they're well used to that in Llanelli Stag!

Exactly people hated Tigers, England, Munster even the Ospreys got it from the other regions when it looked like they were going to achieve things.

I dont think that was to do with their success. I think it was/is to do with the way that their fans/the media reflect their success.

maestegmafia wrote:

red_stag wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:ah they're well used to that in Llanelli Stag!

Exactly people hated Tigers, England, Munster even the Ospreys got it from the other regions when it looked like they were going to achieve things.

I dont think that was to do with their success. I think it was/is to do with the way that their fans/the media reflect their success.

Wouldn't have happened if they weren't successful though.

No I think Leicester Tigers fans are a lot like Manchester United fans. Similarly so are many England fans that cant remember English rugby prior to the 1990's and on.

I have never had a problem with Munster and Ospreys fans. I think the Ospreys and their fans, get a very weird and often unfair rep in the media and on forums.

maestegmafia wrote:No I think Leicester Tigers fans are a lot like Manchester United fans. Similarly so are many England fans that cant remember English rugby prior to the 1990's and on.

Nice sweeping statement. Care to back it up, or is it just another one of your digs against the English? Come on, you criticise others for their attitude on here and then you come out with this and similar comments.

maestegmafia wrote:No I think Leicester Tigers fans are a lot like Manchester United fans. Similarly so are many England fans that cant remember English rugby prior to the 1990's and on.

Proves my point

I like the way the scarlets play and they have some cracking welsh talent down there however unless they sort out

1) the defence (how many times do you give 30 plus points in big games)

2) the lack of power in the front 5 (see the uap away game. both tigers games and the ospreys liberty game)

You won;t take the step from being a good side to watch to being a good side who wins trophys

have to say they along with the dragons are the best sides to watch in wales

JB - with regards to our defence, if we focus more on that we lose the attacking way we play. See Smirnoff's post further up the page. Yeah conceding 30+points isn't great, but if we're still winning those games (like at home against USAP) then I'm not too bothered by it. It does need improving but I don't want us to focus just on our defence as it will take away from the strenght of our game.

Agree with you completely on our front 5 though.

SafeAsMilk wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:No I think Leicester Tigers fans are a lot like Manchester United fans. Similarly so are many England fans that cant remember English rugby prior to the 1990's and on.

Nice sweeping statement. Care to back it up, or is it just another one of your digs against the English? Come on, you criticise others for their attitude on here and then you come out with this and similar comments.

Not Sweeping or generalising at all there. And what I said is not a DIG it is an opinion. My opinion.

Stop being so agitated and argumentative, its very immature of you.

I would say my statement is very precise. That over the last 20 years I think England and in particular English Leicester Rugby fans have changed a great deal.

Maybe Stag is correct, that the younger England and Tiger fans have little recollection of what it is like to not be successful and that is why they have the attitude they do.

Similarly it was a big shock to us fans of Wales to see the change in our rugby team between 1978 and 1991, and that has had a definite reflection on our perception of the game as a whole. Similarly for Irish rugby fans who can remember what it was like to watch ireland between 1992-about 98 or 99 when things took a turn for the much better.

rugbydreamer wrote:JB - with regards to our defence, if we focus more on that we lose the attacking way we play.

Don't agree to be honest. If you aim to concede 0 points in a game yes but the Scarlets defence can certainly improve with sacrifcing attacking play.

Well yeah I know it can improve and I said in my post that it does need to be improved. It's just in the 2nd half of the season where we were more defensively sound, we really struggled to score tries and we just weren't playing well. Then the last few matches of the season we may have started letting more points in again but we also played some of our best rugby. It's a really fine balancing act I think, but I know I would prefer us to compete in a really high scoring match with lots of tries, then in a low scoring match that is nullified by defensive play. (I do know that some low scoring matches can be very exciting, but generally speaking they aren't)

The well score more points than you is bold and should be applauded but it;s a big ask to score 30 plus points against top sides (especially away from home)

I agree the scarlets need to play a fast open game but maybe more work can be done on scramble defence or one on one tackles.

Great player as king was williams and maule are proably better in defence, same applies to lamont ahead of stoddart as a 15.

Interesting to see who gets selected next season for you guys

I think our scramble defence is actually okay, it's the one on one tackles that let us down. Like Priestland's attempt at a tackle on a Leinster player when we played them away. That was dreadful, still makes me cringe slightly.

The Regions and they were set up have (rightly) come in for strong criticsim since their inception BUT I fully believe they are now all bearing fruit with the youngsters coming through.

Obviously teams like the Dragons and Scarlets have, through financial reasons blooded more than the Blues and O's but even those teams have brought youngsters through.

I think a big part of it is that, as Nigel Davies says the homegrown policy is "bearing Fruit" it is not considered the finished article.

Scarlets for years have embodied entertaining, exciting rugby and the team played that last year, they were great to watch.

But they need more dog, more self confidence and self belief to make it all work and become one of the dominant sides in Europe again. This will come in time I am sure.

Defence is part of confidence. You can have all the organisational skills nailed in training but unless all fifteen of you have every ounce of faith in your team as a defensive unit, there will always be weak links.

But Dreamer I don't get it. You say that missed tackles is the reason for bad defence but also say that fixing defense will stifle your attack. Will making 1 on 1 tackles have that great an effect?