Matthew Tait completes Leicester move.

First topic message reminder :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/14150991.stm

I reckon everybody has known that Tait is linking up with the Tigers for ages, now it has been confirmed. I think this could be an excellent move for Leicester if he can stay fit. One of the things Leicester have been really missing in the very top end games is pace and Tait has this in spades.

Any thoughts about this?

Geordie we won't be signing Grey. Well I seriously doubt it. We already have Waldrom and Crane and have just signed up the students no8 from last season who has also played a tournament or two for England Sevens. With the supposingly rapid de Carpienter joining Crane and Waldrom with cover supplied by academy graduates Pienaar and Armes we just won't have the space for him.

More likely he'll stay at the Falcons or move on to London Irish.

Geordiefalcon unfortunately Newcastle is Leicester's feeder club. Tait is ex Newcastle too but you obviously already knew that.

It is tough for you when you lose all your best players.

It's a shame Newcastle don't really benefit from an excellent academy.

Really quite clever of Leicester though. It's a virtuous circle for them - because they are overall the best club in England they have the pick of the young talent - because they have the pick of the young talent they are overall the best club in England.

So, Tait, Flood, Woods, Parling, Brookes, Young...any more?

I don't think anyone's denying that there will be more, the problem is more "how can Newcastle benefit?". You can see why they go. Who would you rather play for? A team in a relegation scrap or a team challenging the top of the table and the Heineken Cup?

It's not just Leicester of course (though they have the most!). Dowson started to look good and was then off to Saints, Clegg to Quins etc.

"You can see why they go. Who would you rather play for? A team in a relegation scrap or a team challenging the top of the table and the Heineken Cup?"

Yes i agree...but surely as you're breaking through to first team rugby you'd rather be at a team that will give you gametime...not at a club where you wont pay any games. I really couldnt see Gray getting much gametime at Leicester..whereas he will this season with us.

Sorry guys i just have a major case of SOUR GRAPES!!!!!


Ill get over it.

Beschocked Tigers are only able to do that because of the careful management of resources and consistent organic growth. They are about the only AP club who are self sustaining, it's not accident they are the biggest club in the country and are therefore in a great position to attract young talent.

Not always that easy though, for instance a prromising young centre (about 16) was nicked out of the Tigers academy by Quinns. Tigers certainly aren't the only ones out pilfering young talent.

Geordie mate you won't have too, Grey won't be at Tigers unless something changes dramatically.

screamingaddabs wrote:As I put on another article (but I'll happily repeat) I disagree with the OP and think this is the best move Tait could've made. He has to back himself and work hard and it's a risk, but he is being brought in as a long term replacement to Geordan Murphy at full back. To have Murphy as your "tutor" will be awesome for him and I think he easily has the talent to make the 15 shirt his in time. Yes, next season he might sit on the bench a lot, but in the long term I can see him competing with Foden for the England 15 shirt. He was going no where at Sale and the last thing he should've done was either stay there or move somewhere else where he was nearly guaranteed a start. It could all go wrong, but I think he has the natural talent to really make the most of the move.

I didn't say this was a bad move for Tait, I happen to think it is a very good one.

"Geordie mate you won't have too, Grey won't be at Tigers unless something changes dramatically.."

Now i feel better Sam..thanks

GeordieFalcon wrote:"You can see why they go. Who would you rather play for? A team in a relegation scrap or a team challenging the top of the table and the Heineken Cup?"

Yes i agree...but surely as you're breaking through to first team rugby you'd rather be at a team that will give you gametime...not at a club where you wont pay any games.

That is up to the individual player to judge when they are going to go. Too soon and they won't get games, too late and they may have been relegated

I actually doubt the pay is really that much better. I certainly don't think Tait will be on more than he as at Sale - that's the advantage of a prestigious club identity I guess.

Cumbrian - fair cop mate, must've misread your post.

~~I think I was confusing this Tait thread with t'other~~

formerly known as Sam wrote:Beschocked Tigers are only able to do that because of the careful management of resources and consistent organic growth. They are about the only AP club who are self sustaining, it's not accident they are the biggest club in the country and are therefore in a great position to attract young talent.

Not always that easy though, for instance a prromising young centre (about 16) was nicked out of the Tigers academy by Quinns. Tigers certainly aren't the only ones out pilfering young talent.

Geordie mate you won't have too, Grey won't be at Tigers unless something changes dramatically.

Who's the promising young centre from the Tigers academy? I must keep an eye out for him.

HammerofThunor wrote:So, Tait, Flood, Woods, Parling, Brookes, Young...any more?

Fraiser Balmain, who represents something more worrying to me. We are starting to lose players directly out of the academy. The aforementioned Balmain and Nathan Morris (to Wasps) who is an England age grade player, are recent examples.

Sam I know it seems like I am critical of Leicester but Leicester are very successful because they are clever. As you say they are the most successful club in England for numerous reasons.

Of course Tigers aren't the only ones who pilfer young talent but the relevance to Tigers is because Tait is an ex Newcastle man and the influx of Newcastle youngsters into Leicester.

There is always the what if Newcastle kept onto their players.

It 's also how it works in sport - young talent want to go to the places where they believe they can earn the most money and win trophies.

Is it any surprise the most active in England on the transfer market are Bath,Leicester,Saracens and Northampton?

Charlie Walker, bit older than I thought he was but a Leicester boy and age grade international. Don't know how Quinns managed to pinch him as he was an Oadby Wiggs player and you can't get much closer to Tigers. For those who don't know Odaby Wiggs play at Oval Park the Tigers training facility.

Cheers for that info Sam,

Just had a little look around for Walker and it seems he played very well in our 7's team last night, ended up with the player of the tournament award and helped Quins to win all 3 of their matches.

I'll be interested to see where O'shea thinks he fits best and if he can make it in to the first team at all this season.

Knowing Quinns he'll be getting a go at some point this season, they are good at blooding their youngsters early and graduating them to the first team. From what little I know of him he'll be on the wing or at 13. Might get a run on the wing with Camacho moving on.

If I were inthe Tiger's academy I'd be worried about my future proposects. Tigers seemto have a huge intake, but very few seem to progress and Cockerill desn't run a set up which appears to be keen to give kids a go (unless they are obviously exceptional like Tuilagi). Tiger's now seem to be focussing on players in their early 20's who have progressed with other clubs rather than brining through their own. It would be good to see Tiger's contributing a few more they've developed themselves.

True DaveM it is a concern, there are some talented players in the cusp of the first team that just aren't getting games. Cockers insistance that all players must earn the right to wear the shirt is working in one way but not really developing many youngsters. Then again if you've seen the offy forum and the amount of grief being dished out after we lost to Leinster and then Sarries you'd understand his stance. The Tigers job is not a forgiving one.

I still hope the RWC will see the likes of Harris, Bower, Armes, Harrison, Forsyth and Lewington given ago or at least given the Low Value Cup games. There's a substantial amount of talent in those guys and they could happily join Ford in filtering into the first team over the next few years.

Sam do Tigers currently have a dual signing deal with one of the championship clubs? If not I would recommend Tigers do it to bring on your youngsters.

Saracen's dual signing with Bedford has already worked wonders. James Short and Owen Farrell were playing for Bedford at the start of the season! Short picked up 4 tries in one game for them. It works well for both sides - they get quality youngsters, our academy boys get good experience.

One of our academy boys is now the Bedford fly half - Jake Sharp.

beshocked wrote:Sam do Tigers currently have a dual signing deal with one of the championship clubs? If not I would recommend Tigers do it to bring on your youngsters.

Saracen's dual signing with Bedford has already worked wonders. James Short and Owen Farrell were playing for Bedford at the start of the season! Short picked up 4 tries in one game for them. It works well for both sides - they get quality youngsters, our academy boys get good experience.

One of our academy boys is now the Bedford fly half - Jake Sharp.

Don't Tigers use Esher? I think most of the clubs do have the dual club agreement.

yappysnap wrote:

beshocked wrote:Sam do Tigers currently have a dual signing deal with one of the championship clubs? If not I would recommend Tigers do it to bring on your youngsters.

Saracen's dual signing with Bedford has already worked wonders. James Short and Owen Farrell were playing for Bedford at the start of the season! Short picked up 4 tries in one game for them. It works well for both sides - they get quality youngsters, our academy boys get good experience.

One of our academy boys is now the Bedford fly half - Jake Sharp.

Don't Tigers use Esher? I think most of the clubs do have the dual club agreement.

I know that Quins use Esher for dual registration.
Wasnt Varndell sent to Bedford when he was with Tigers?
Wasps also have links with Esher, and I think there is something in place with either Richmond or London Scots.

propdavid_london wrote:

yappysnap wrote:

beshocked wrote:Sam do Tigers currently have a dual signing deal with one of the championship clubs? If not I would recommend Tigers do it to bring on your youngsters.

Saracen's dual signing with Bedford has already worked wonders. James Short and Owen Farrell were playing for Bedford at the start of the season! Short picked up 4 tries in one game for them. It works well for both sides - they get quality youngsters, our academy boys get good experience.

One of our academy boys is now the Bedford fly half - Jake Sharp.

Don't Tigers use Esher? I think most of the clubs do have the dual club agreement.

I know that Quins use Esher for dual registration.
Wasnt Varndell sent to Bedford when he was with Tigers?
Wasps also have links with Esher, and I think there is something in place with either Richmond or London Scots.

Tigers used to use Bedford, I think they might have been the first club to actually start doing this, or the second after Gloucester with Mosley. Currently Tigers have links with Nottingham

Tigers used to send players to Coventry, Bedford and Newcastle quite regularly. Since the change in the dual registration rules they've decided to keep the players closer to home and now the train with Tigers and play for Nottingham. Stevens, Harris, Armes, Green, Forsyth and somebody else were all playing for Notts last year.

Tigers have been loaning players out for ages, Varndell was famously loaned out to refind his form at Bedford and Dan Cole backed his season spent with Notts as the reason for his dramatic improvement. Tigers also invest a good deal of time and money setting up friendlies for the A Team and Academy. The academy regularly play against England age groups (normally winning) and against some of the top academies in Britain and Ireland (Ospreys and Munster are regulars on the fixture list for the academy). The A Team have won back to back A League titles. For some reason there's only a dribble making their way from the successfull academy and A team into the first team. Traditionally it was a bigger flow though Tigers have always augmented the local talent with the best of English talent where available.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Tigers used to send players to Coventry, Bedford and Newcastle quite regularly. Since the change in the dual registration rules they've decided to keep the players closer to home and now the train with Tigers and play for Nottingham. Stevens, Harris, Armes, Green, Forsyth and somebody else were all playing for Notts last year.

I'd guess it is Tom Youngs you're looking for, who has come back to tigers as third choice hooker for next season?

I'm looking forwards to see how he goes - he's got good reviews at Nottingham.

Nope Tom Youngs signed on a one year deal for Notts but with lots of access agreements from Tigers. It's widely expected he will now sign a new contract with Tigers and become the third choice hooker as Joe Duffey has gone back to Notts.

Think the one missing might be Dan Hemmingway, who has no signed for Leeds I think. He was a promising young player but drifted from lock to blindside and back a bit to much. Never specialised as the line out option 6 due to lack of dynacism and wasn't big enough to make a second row berth his own. Shame though as he was a real work horse and a proper give 100% for the team style grafter, played in the win over SA the other year as well.

[quote="formerly known as Sam"]Think the one missing might be Dan Hemmingway, who has no signed for Leeds I think. He was a promising young player but drifted from lock to blindside and back a bit to much. Never specialised as the line out option 6 due to lack of dynacism and wasn't big enough to make a second row berth his own. Shame though as he was a real work horse and a proper give 100% for the team style grafter, played in the win over SA the other year as well.[quote]

Ah, I'd forgotten about him as he'd gone to Leeds now and was just thinking of who is still around. Hopefully things will go well for him at Leeds but I can see him remaining a championship player - he's the type of player who would have managed a reasonable career for Tigers ten or more years ago as a back up but standards everywhere have gone up and the cap limits squad sizes so Tigers have to bring in people like Kitchener and Mafi rather than keep players who aren't quite good enough, which is why there is a drop off compared to years ago in players coming through.

Youngs was really a loan, I think, even if it was dressed up as an actual transfer - he could have been recalled at any time and Tigers had as much access as they wanted to keep and eye on him.

Youngs was effectively a loan but I think there's only 6 DRs allowed per season and so it was dressed up like a signing so that Notts would have an extra player and Tigers would have him out of the cap.

Tigers generally use Nottingham for dual registers don't they? Last season they loaned them Tom Armes, Dan Hemmingway, Finlay Barnham, Andy Forsyth, Ryan Bower, Jonny Harris and Jimmy Stevens. They also have first refusal on players like the Cobden brothers and Tom Youngs.

How's he been doing?

Had a groin injury early on. He kept trying to come back too early so Cockrill just banned him for a few month (i.e. ignored his opinion on whether he felt right). Not heard anything since then

Is he going to stay then?

I think so. Cockerill was full of praise for him when he was on the pitch, he put his body on the line and looked good ball in hand. The Tigers medics clearly want him right and not nursing injuries like he did with his shoulder. Hoping to have him back this month or January.

Will he get enough ball?

The Tigers back do tend to get their hands on the ball quite a lot.

If Flood is playing ten the backs will be playing flat attacking rugby and he will be utilised. If Staunton is playing then, no, he won't get the ball much. If Ford is playing then he will but won't be gifted the same quality of timing and pass as if Flood was playing.

I think the long term hope is for him to play full back but with Geordan back and playing well and Morris looking to be a good signing he is going to have to make do with wing in the short term.