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Welsh Squad may have a very youthful look about it...!

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TycroesOsprey
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Post by maestegmafia Fri 15 Jul 2011, 11:01 pm

First topic message reminder :

Have a read, promising stuff...!

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2011/07/15/warren-gatland-hails-bold-approach-of-young-welsh-world-cup-hopefuls-91466-29056682/

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2011/07/15/analysis-time-is-right-for-wales-next-generation-of-stars-to-make-their-mark-91466-29056324/

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Post by Barry John III Thu 21 Jul 2011, 3:33 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:
manofgwent wrote:You can argue with the stats and say, 7 six nations wins in 15. Thank the lord italy are in the tournament! Oh and we've been dire in the autumn tests.

Totally true

Why do posters look back over say 6 seasons when they know two GS's skew the figures, more importantly are the two 4ths and 5ths.

You can count yourselves lucky that England inexplicably changed tactics when having the upper hand in your 2005 & 2008 GS years

Also the 2009 win against us was a travesty of justice, also Italy are ruing some missed opportunities over the last 3 seasons

TBH in most Scottish eyes (opinions) we have progressed as a national team, and see us just ahead of the Italians, on par with the Welsh but just behind Ireland, and a bit behind England and France

Unfortunately both our ML teams were pants this year, so we are erring on caution

Fly,

No, that's your interpretation of what very few posters actually consider relevant when looking over stats. I personally do not. You're a bit of whinger aren't you? laughing
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Post by Smirnoffpriest Thu 21 Jul 2011, 3:52 pm

I think the Scots have been getting better to be honest, I think they've been unlucky to loose.

Also I think Wales stagnated after 2008 and have been slowly slipping backwards this last year - England in particular and France and Ireland have improved which is why we've been 4th and 5th and have struggled to beat SH weakened sides.

Though I wouldn't say the Scots are on par with Wales - I just think that Wales are underperforming so much that it's a close run thing.

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Post by manofgwent Thu 21 Jul 2011, 4:15 pm

So true about the Scotland game in 2010. Ryan jones said that the fans have been treated to one of the best games the millennium stadium has ever seen. Well. If you left 5 minutes before the end, it was one of the most inept performances I've ever seen. Phill Bennett kept on banging on about how wales would cut loose in the 2nd half. Well it took Scotland to be reduced to 13 men and one of the biggest bits of luck I've ever seen. It's the last play of the game and Stephen jones kicks the ball away!!!! What was he thinking. It was only the luck of the bounce that Wales won. Absolute robbery. Fan parks looked like someone had mugged at the end. Cruel.

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Post by Barry John III Thu 21 Jul 2011, 4:25 pm

2011: Wales won 24-6in Edinburgh (+18 Wales)
2010: Wales won 31-24 in Cardiff (+7 Wales)
2009: Wales won 26-13 in Edinburgh (+13 Wales)
2008: Wales won 30-15 in Cardiff (+15 Wales)
2007: Scotland won 21-9 in Edinburgh (+12 Scotland)
2006: Wales won 28-18 in Cardiff (+10 Wales)
2005: Wales won 46-22 in Edinburgh (+24 Wales)
2004: Wales won 23-10 in Cardiff (+13 Wales)
2003: Wales won 23-9 in Cardiff (+14 Wales)
2003: Scotland won 30-22 in Edinburgh (+8 Scotland)
2002: Scotland won 27-22 in Cardiff (+5 Scotland)
2001: Drew 28-28 in Edinburgh (0-0)
2000: Wales won 26-18 in Cardiff (+8 Wales)

Total matches played 116
Wales W: 65
Scotland W: 45

Versus Ireland
Total matches played 116
Wales W: 63
Ireland W: 47

Versus England
Total matches played 120
Wales W: 53
England W: 55

Versus France
Total matches played 88
Wales W: 43
France W:42

Judging by those, I'd say we're roundedly closer to England and France. BUT, that's kind of irrelevant on current form, isn't it? Wink
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Post by Smirnoffpriest Thu 21 Jul 2011, 4:46 pm

Yeah it is pretty irrelevant because we're talking about current form - being the last 3 years - or more like the last 2 years. We were lucky to beat Scotland in 2010 and got out played and in 2011 we beat them well but only really played well for 20 mins and Scotland came back into it and we on top for about 15 mins and squandered some opportunities - either way it was the most dire game of the championship.

We're still better than Scotland but showing the entire history of the games played against each other doesn't mean demonstrate where each team currently are.

I mean there's no way we are better than France even though we've beaten them more times than we've lost.

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Post by flyhalffactory Thu 21 Jul 2011, 6:01 pm

Barry John III wrote:With respects, chaps, do you genuinely believe we will revert to type tactically when it comes to the next 3 games and onto the RWC?

My own theory is based on the fact that Wales have played nothing but predictable rugby for a little over 3 years. What does that tell you? We've reverted to playing the type of rugby that simply doesn't suit the nature of the quality of players we have. If anything, it's essentially against the ethic of what these players are good at doing and where that might seem like a ''problem'', what I actually believe is happening is the assimilation of game plans that Wales were never capable of standing up to.

My evidence is the kick and defend tactic deployed quite regularly during this years' 6N campaign. The moves throughout some games i.e. Italy looked hideously predictable and over-coached. Why? It's a simple measure of stick to the plan. Kick for territory, improve the set piece (even if it was shakey) and attack only when it's on. To me it was blatantly obvious.

This is undeniably a coached system being deployed on field. In moments where we saw strange events, you only need look at the tiny percentages over the France and Scotland games of 2010 where Wales actually decided to embark on their own instincts and attacked. It paid off in 1 game but not the other - but the real telling factor was what happened in a short space of time when play wasn't following the coached system.

Gatland isn't so much ''holding Wales back'', he's just stubbornly drilling a type of rugby capable of sustaining a better defensive unit against better opposition and enforcing the ability to cope under higher defensive pressure. Something Wales have never been capable of in the professional era until now. OK, granted, we have very limited resources in Wales and that does play a large factor in how you approach newer caps and how they fit into your system, but it's all relevant. We very, very rarely get a solid hiding from teams these days and that's because we've been working on a model of rugby that is able to keep us within a reasonable chance of a win.

Consider the larger losses, I mean, every team has a really bad day when they ship points like they were passes, but that's part of rugby and what the opposition want to do to you.

Our current systematic and predictable model will not work in the RWC and that's why I completely agree why public opinion in Wales is low on our chances and why people are losing faith, but I offer you this; Gatland has yet to instruct this team to simply go out and play their way (having now been well drilled on defensive systems, forward strength improved set-piece organisation) and while it might not pay off, it's the only thing I think he left under his sleave.

He's coached them on being a more resilient defence outfit capable of being within a shout of the SH teams, but now he might just say: ''Use that and do what you do best''

Thanks for reading my essay, fellas! Wink

Bazzer
I would say your comments represent naivety personified

1. Rugby style v Quality of players - Do you believe in the myth of "the welsh way"
2. The Italian game - you do realise a perceived "creative" was in at the 10 slot due to public pressure and the game was so predictable it was untrue
3. The Scotland game - if you understood our persona as a nation, you would realise we ALWAYS hit the ground crawling, it wasnt so much Wales playing the "welsh way" more of Scotland playing the "Scottish Way", once (after 30 mins) we actually got into 2nd and 3rd gear ............. we never actually got in 4th, you reverted to the "real welsh way"
4. The French game - let be honest the French put their foot off the gas, otherwise you would have been on an all-time pasting, by the way the "creative" 10 was again in control
5. The telling factor was you did play as Mr G stated playing what was in front of you but when the opponents suddenly upped the ante you didnt have the players who could change the game
6. Limited resources - come on man, in any sport you can see people succeed on limited resources, why havent England football won more than one WC, or had a Wimbledon champion, why are NZ so good at rugby in both codes, it can be argued you have much more resources than Italy/Scotland/Argentina/Canada etc but you struggle against these teams

Smell the coffee young man
Wales and the Welsh Way............... if you attempt to run at Fiji or Samoa or SA you will ghet destroyed, what you have to say is Gatland has put too much faith his his close band of players who for the best part of 3 yrs have not been the best in Wales

Byrne - Barry Davies is better, Stoddart is better
Hook - not the creative player you allk think he is, operates superbly in loose play, is dire in a closed situation. Gatland persists (under pressure) to play him.......... same goes with Henson, Mr G is bending over backwards to
Phillips - is not the player you need to implement Mr Gatland tactics (great defensive pack & quick distribution), it worked brilliantly when super fast Howley was 9 at Wasps but fell apart with Wales because of two-step Phillips
AWJ - at lock he invariably gives penalties away under pressure

These players have underperformed in 2009-2011...... why?
Simple they know they are going to the WC however they perform.The intensity is not there because they havent been trained its because they know they are relatively safe
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Post by flyhalffactory Thu 21 Jul 2011, 6:16 pm

Fly,

No, that's your interpretation of what very few posters actually consider relevant when looking over stats. I personally do not. You're a bit of whinger aren't you?
==========================================================================================================
Bazzer
well I am a Scot
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Post by glamorganalun Thu 21 Jul 2011, 6:57 pm

Flyhalf:

S Jones was 10 against Italy, Hook was in the centre helping to create two tries, I though it would help your imagination, Hook played 10 against your boys, Ireland and not so good against France.

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Post by flyhalffactory Thu 21 Jul 2011, 7:40 pm

stand corrected there Alun thumbsup

and he (Hook) was quite superb in that link play, however did you notice Stoddarts defence , how he made that try saving tackle I dont know, and taking down Bergamasco just shows how good he is defence wise

By the way did you see how Canale just swept through Hook on three occasions................... not good viewing
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Post by manofgwent Thu 21 Jul 2011, 7:49 pm

Flyhalf. You forgot to mention that we don't possess a ball carrier.

The comment on players not performing, because they know they'll be in the team no matter what is completely accurate. I've been saying for ages that warren gatland knew his world cup team 2 years ago.


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Post by glamorganalun Thu 21 Jul 2011, 11:45 pm

Flyhalf:

No problem, I watched the England game last night as I remenbered Stodds dropping two out of two catches with him on the wing, one simple up and under and a good cross field kick from S Jones that he should have taken that is form a so called full back. The kick S Jones put across was very good by his standards but he blew a 5 on 3 overlap by kicking, to be honest Shane and d*** brain Powell kicked good ball away as well. Watching again the ref was so inconsisent, that game could have gone the other way and Gatland substitutions were poor, he just looks at the clock and changes for the sake of change.

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Post by manofgwent Fri 22 Jul 2011, 7:26 am

Alun. Good comment on the subs. I remember gatland taking off a very disappointed lydiate against Scotland. On came JT and to be fair you wouldn't have known if he ran on and straight off the other side of the pitch for all he contributed.
Main
Point though i's why does he make 3 or 4 changes in the 60 minute mark??? Why???? If tactically something isn't working or a particular player i's not performing why not change this problem when you see it??? "no no. I'll give it an hour"!

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Post by samuraidragon Fri 22 Jul 2011, 8:17 am

I was at the Ba-Ba's game. Our play was much zippier and more entertaining when the Scarlets boys came on with 20 mins or so to play. But I also felt we were likely to give up our lead and lose, which we duly did, because the tackling had become so weak.

The South Sea islanders are not tricky or elusive. They fun fast, hard and direct. You simply cannot tackle around the chest and shoulders, as the new boys (not JD2 though) attempted to do - and were brushed aside.
The Nacewa try was a great example of how not to defend against a strong-running islander.




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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 22 Jul 2011, 8:25 am

The inflexibility of Gatland's substitution policy says a lot about the man. Yes, by all means have a plan for who you're going to substitute and when, but you have to be prepared to adjust your plan in response to how the match is going. Some substitutions may need to be made sooner, later, or not at all. An astute coach will see this and act accordingly.

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Post by bedfordwelsh Fri 22 Jul 2011, 8:37 am

Substitutions have always been a bit of a bug bear for me. A lot of teams make changes around the 60 minute mark which just seems the 'norm' these days.

For me if a player isn't doing his job (Vickery for example in the Lions) then that individual should be hauled off there n then. Lydiate was doing his job against Scotland but it was inevitable it seemd that JT would come on for him and what did it achieve.

Also I can't see the point of bringing players on with 5-10 minutes to go what can they possibly achieve in that time scale.
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Post by Barry John III Fri 22 Jul 2011, 9:51 am

flyhalffactory wrote:
Bazzer
I would say your comments represent naivety personified

1. Rugby style v Quality of players - Do you believe in the myth of "the welsh way"
2. The Italian game - you do realise a perceived "creative" was in at the 10 slot due to public pressure and the game was so predictable it was untrue
3. The Scotland game - if you understood our persona as a nation, you would realise we ALWAYS hit the ground crawling, it wasnt so much Wales playing the "welsh way" more of Scotland playing the "Scottish Way", once (after 30 mins) we actually got into 2nd and 3rd gear ............. we never actually got in 4th, you reverted to the "real welsh way"
4. The French game - let be honest the French put their foot off the gas, otherwise you would have been on an all-time pasting, by the way the "creative" 10 was again in control
5. The telling factor was you did play as Mr G stated playing what was in front of you but when the opponents suddenly upped the ante you didnt have the players who could change the game
6. Limited resources - come on man, in any sport you can see people succeed on limited resources, why havent England football won more than one WC, or had a Wimbledon champion, why are NZ so good at rugby in both codes, it can be argued you have much more resources than Italy/Scotland/Argentina/Canada etc but you struggle against these teams

Smell the coffee young man
Wales and the Welsh Way............... if you attempt to run at Fiji or Samoa or SA you will ghet destroyed, what you have to say is Gatland has put too much faith his his close band of players who for the best part of 3 yrs have not been the best in Wales

Byrne - Barry Davies is better, Stoddart is better
Hook - not the creative player you allk think he is, operates superbly in loose play, is dire in a closed situation. Gatland persists (under pressure) to play him.......... same goes with Henson, Mr G is bending over backwards to
Phillips - is not the player you need to implement Mr Gatland tactics (great defensive pack & quick distribution), it worked brilliantly when super fast Howley was 9 at Wasps but fell apart with Wales because of two-step Phillips
AWJ - at lock he invariably gives penalties away under pressure

These players have underperformed in 2009-2011...... why?
Simple they know they are going to the WC however they perform.The intensity is not there because they havent been trained its because they know they are relatively safe

Naive? Not really, Fly. I know writing that must make you feel like you're getting one over on me, but the simple fact is, it is you getting your facts wrong and you're calling me ''naive''.

Let's break this down rationally, shall we?

1. I don't believe in a ''Welsh Way'', I merely quoted a term that was often peddled by a previous head coach, and one that he believed would bring relative success with that squad. You don't have the grounds on which to state a question between quality aof player v style of play to draw from my post at all. It's entirely redundant and unsubstiated. Trying to appear clever before a careful examination of what has been written is a poor show.

2. It was Stephen Jones that played at 10 v Italy, not the ''creative'' one as your sarcasm would suggest and that shows your inability to bring facts to the table. Sort of discredits your entire response on this occasion, doesn't it? Wink

3. You're right on first part of this point about Scotland starting slow, but like many pundits, and ex-professionals suggested (and I'm more inclined to take their word) Scotland stated after this game, it was that Scotland simply didn't have an answer for our performance that day and we smashed your scrum over the entire 80 minutes (even with 6 men at one point). It's you that has chosen to coin the term ''Welsh Way'' in your assessment of events that day. No one else has.

4. Where you got this performance from in relation to my post, I don't know. We got stuffed by the French and we accepted that it was completely our fault, but what relevance does that have in responding to my post. None.

5. In what context and against who? You're not making yourself clear enough for me to identify the 'how', the 'where' and the 'when' to support my argument in this debate. You want to talk about it, so do your research and let's discuss it! Wink

6. Yes, we do have limited resources in the professional game to be able to achieve what various coaches and other figureheads in Welsh rugby would like us to do, not just only a national front, but as a system throughout regional rugby in Wales - that was the principle thought behind my reasoning, not an excuse. Also, I would hardly consider smashing the Scottish pack for a full 80 in their own back-yard and rolling their scrum with only 6 men is a struggle is it? Yet you call me naive? laughing

Irrelevant next point because I didn't state any basis for this argument or raise this point.

I didn't mention any of the players you listed in any context whatsoever, so rather than get into a written tussle, let's deem that point null and void as it holds no relevance to the particulars that we're talking about.

When I read your comments, normally I take them on board with a fair and impartial view, but on this occasion, you're way out of tune and trying to support the basis of your argument (opinions) on nothing more than mix-matched interpretation and falsities.

Let's enjoy this debate Ale
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Post by flyhalffactory Fri 22 Jul 2011, 2:13 pm

Bazzer

This is going to be a pleasure to sub analyse you laddy. This last little dittie highlights empty vessels really do make the most codswallop

I have watched every Scotland game for the last 20 yrs bar 3 due to business, I was in the ground for the last Welsh game with about 12 of us who also watch most games we all are pretty fair in our assessment of matches. I have been on 3 lions tours as a spectator, and watched 2 WCs series, I have also played the game at a fairly respectable level.

Now give me your address and I will send you a copy of the game, how you have the gall to say your pack smashed us for 80 mins I never know.... WATCH THE MATCH or even better GO TO SEE LIVE RUGBY. Its actually quite good as long as the beer doesnt steam up your rose tinted specs

EVERYONE including welsh pundits agreed that was the worst Scottish performance in the last 10 seasons, and even taking that into account we outperformed you from the 30 to the 65 minute. Yes you were the better team overall but its not much of a statement to make considering how poor we were.

Now lets get serious here lad, the rationale is the ........... your extracts

1. "We've reverted to playing the type of rugby that simply doesn't suit the nature of the quality of players we have. If anything, it's essentially against the ethic of what these players are good at doing"
You were talking about predictable rugby, as if its not the "Welsh Way"...... so come then me old mucker what do you think suits the quality of "these players"?

2. Yep already apologised to Alun for that, Hook played 15 that match, and yes check out his positioning lad

3. YOU DIDNT SMASH OUT SCRUM FOR THE WHOLE 80 MINS...... don't be so immature, at least WATCH THE MATCH even if you are in a pub

4. another extract
"This is undeniably a coached system being deployed on field. In moments where we saw strange events, you only need look at the tiny percentages over the France and Scotland games of 2010 where Wales actually decided to embark on their own instincts and attacked." Amazing comments so on your rationale ........in 2009 we tore you apart for the first 25 mins do you think then we as a nation should have said "see thats the real Scotland our strength is in attacking rugby"....... no anyone with a modicum of rugby nous wouldn't say that!! we all know the game ebbs and flows as it have done for the last 100 yrs. Thats the relevance to base your argument (of the natural welsh way) on what!! 10 mins against France when they put their foot off the gas and 30 mins against us when we didnt even get out of 1st gear.

5. Play whats in front of you -
Gatland has recently stated the welsh players (generally as a team) but specifically the decision makers "dont play whats in front of them" ........ instead under pressure they resort to their base instinct, now he has publically stated that, he has also stated he will play a more adventurous brand of rugby in the WC warm ups

6. Resources -
lets just say you have alot more than quite a few nations
I'll say it again to confirm YOU DID NOT SMASH OUR PACK FOR THE WHOLE 80 MINS, if you want I will embarress you with extracts from the match

The next point is the MOST relevant
You base your argument on the style of rugby doesnt suit the current welsh players, I would say its more to do with the quality and form of some key players rather than the actual style of play adopteded
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Post by glamorganalun Fri 22 Jul 2011, 6:45 pm

manofgwent:
lydiate and S Jones were subbed at 60 mins against England and I thought we were doing OK at the time, JT took over from Lydiate (grr) and Bryne at full back and Hook taking over at 10. As you know I am no fan of S Jones but he was playing OK but Roberts was not in the game so the obvious sub was Hook to the centre and Bryne to FB and keep Lydiate on as our back row were doing well (having got shot of Powell).

Flyhalf:

Minor correction Hook was centre against the Italians, he was FB against England.

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Post by flyhalffactory Fri 22 Jul 2011, 7:26 pm

OMG
Alun you are embarressing me !!!!!! 🤦 thumbsup

I watched only yesterday............what made me say FB

1000 apologies
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Post by glamorganalun Fri 22 Jul 2011, 7:34 pm

Flyhalf:

No problem, Gatland keeps moving the guy around he probably wonders what position he is playing when he on the park!

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Post by flyhalffactory Fri 22 Jul 2011, 8:58 pm

glamorganalun wrote:manofgwent:
lydiate and S Jones were subbed at 60 mins against England and I thought we were doing OK at the time, JT took over from Lydiate (grr) and Bryne at full back and Hook taking over at 10. As you know I am no fan of S Jones but he was playing OK but Roberts was not in the game so the obvious sub was Hook to the centre and Bryne to FB and keep Lydiate on as our back row were doing well (having got shot of Powell).

Flyhalf:

Minor correction Hook was centre against the Italians, he was FB against England.


Alun
I think that was an excellent assessment, bang on there Roberts did have a subdued match, and Gatland made the wrong call. He seems to bow to public clamour
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Post by Mr Thunder Fri 22 Jul 2011, 9:18 pm

I think Fiji had a decent game against New Zealand. People have to remember losing 60-14 is not actually a horrendous result given that the match was played in NZ.

Wales have taken some absolute pastings in Wales againt the Blacks let alone on tour downunder. Also Fiji drew with Wales in Cardiff last autumn.

Given Samoa's victory against Australia and the fact Wales would probably lose by a similar scoreline as Fiji did to NZ in NZ, Wales will be lucky to win one of their games against Fiji, Samoa and South Africa. Its going to be a humbling world cup.

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Post by welshy824 Fri 22 Jul 2011, 9:45 pm

they wouldnt have lost that much, it sounds as if the AB had a poor match and i am sure wales would use that to their advantage, remember last years tour they lost 40-20 or something similar and that was the full AB squad, and remember the fiji squad was a second squad featuring many players who no longer are a part of the welsh squad.
mr thunder what nationality are you just out of interest?

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Post by Guest Fri 22 Jul 2011, 9:58 pm

I wouldn't even have given him the time of day Welshy. He's clearly only on here to wind the Welsh up.


Last edited by Risca Rev on Fri 22 Jul 2011, 10:19 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Guest Fri 22 Jul 2011, 10:15 pm

let's try and keep things on topic please. This is about the Wales squad, not about the results in the NZ v Fiji match etc. Thanks.

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